3.5e Campaign questions

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Hi there.  I'm rather newish to the whole D&D thing, with my only opportunites to experience it being through the Neverwinter Nights games.  However, it looks like I'm finally going to be actually have a nice campaign, but... there's just one tiny little problem.  We're all more or less noobs.

This came about because we took a personality test, and the idea of "hey, let's actually play the game with these characters!" came up.  Well, many of us liked it, but I've got a few questions as to where to go to help make this work out.

First - How many players would make a decent game?  How many is too many/few?  There's quite a few of us who wanted to do it, and while I'm not sure how many will actually pull through, it'd be a good idea to limit how many people should actually join in so it doesn't get too crowded.

Second - Where should I look for campaigns designed around skewed parties?  Since we're playing with personality test-born characters, we won't really have a good party balance.  However, I don't think it should be punished really, so since we're caster heavy, a campaign designed with such a party in mind would be useful.  Knowing where to look for ideas for such a campaign would be very helpful.

Finally, any user-friendly resources you can find to just plain help a newbie player/GM out would be greatly appreciated.
Hi there.  I'm rather newish to the whole D&D thing, with my only opportunites to experience it being through the Neverwinter Nights games.  However, it looks like I'm finally going to be actually have a nice campaign, but... there's just one tiny little problem.  We're all more or less noobs.

This came about because we took a personality test, and the idea of "hey, let's actually play the game with these characters!" came up.  Well, many of us liked it, but I've got a few questions as to where to go to help make this work out.

First - How many players would make a decent game?  How many is too many/few?  There's quite a few of us who wanted to do it, and while I'm not sure how many will actually pull through, it'd be a good idea to limit how many people should actually join in so it doesn't get too crowded.

Second - Where should I look for campaigns designed around skewed parties?  Since we're playing with personality test-born characters, we won't really have a good party balance.  However, I don't think it should be punished really, so since we're caster heavy, a campaign designed with such a party in mind would be useful.  Knowing where to look for ideas for such a campaign would be very helpful.

Finally, any user-friendly resources you can find to just plain help a newbie player/GM out would be greatly appreciated.

1- few are 3 characters (or 2 characters with the gestalt rules but not are recommended for noobs), and too many are 7 character, or 5 if you are a new as DM, thats is my opinion.

2- D&D have many books with adventures like Forgotten Realms, Red Hand of Doom, Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, Shattered Gates of Slaughtergard, exemplars of evil, The Sunless Citadel and in Dragon magazine and dungeon magazine have a lot more.

but is better that you read the exemplars of evil, Dungeon Master guide 1 , Dungeon Master guide 2, rule compendium and some Adventures, and play a starting campaint like The Sunless Citadel to become familiar with the fights and rolled and them start your own campaing.

3-download to your cell,pc or lap this, or if you have internet check it, have links to the spells abilities base class, conditions and many resources.

www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resourc...

Download : www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resourc...
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Sorry for having your first exposure be Oma. He's not representative of the forum as a whole - most of us are coherent and helpful.

First - How many players would make a decent game?  How many is too many/few?  There's quite a few of us who wanted to do it, and while I'm not sure how many will actually pull through, it'd be a good idea to limit how many people should actually join in so it doesn't get too crowded.


The "average" party is four players and one DM. The game can pretty readily accommodate a fifth player without too much in the way of adjustment; working with three takes a touch more work but not too much more. Going outside of that it's kind of tricky, but not because it's a "crowd" - because it tends to slow the game down and bog up the CR system.

Experienced DMs can make it work, but if you're just starting, you probably don't have those on hand. To start, I'd suggest four to five players and one DM, possibly with an assistant DM if the DM is also new.

Second - Where should I look for campaigns designed around skewed parties?  Since we're playing with personality test-born characters, we won't really have a good party balance.  However, I don't think it should be punished really, so since we're caster heavy, a campaign designed with such a party in mind would be useful.  Knowing where to look for ideas for such a campaign would be very helpful.


I'd need to know the exact party balance and starting level to be sure about this. At low levels, casters run out of stamina really quickly and tend to die if anything hits them. At the mid levels, a team of casters have enough spells between them that it doesn't matter. At high levels, many spellcasters can bend most campaigns over the desk and have their way with them without their teammates.

I'd suggest making your own adventures - and start small, THEN build up, rather than starting big and fleshing out. This allows a greater degree of tailoring to your party at the fragile low levels while still building into a full campaign over time.

Finally, any user-friendly resources you can find to just plain help a newbie player/GM out would be greatly appreciated.


I actually have a lot of these, but they're not on this computer. I'll reply again when I get back home.

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Well, going off of the personality tests, the casters tend to be about level 2 (or in some cases, 1/1), while the one fighter's level 3.  Thanks for y'alls help on the matter, it's really nice to see some people who don't just throw yardsticks at me and expect me to know what to do with them. ^-^;
You may want to have one or two of the casters (depending on the party make-up and classes) specialise in battlefield control spells.  If you don't, your DM might throw creatures at you that can get past your lone Fighter and wreak havoc with the squishies (unless your Fighter has become a lockdown build...check out Tempest Stormwind's signature for the Pinball Brothers).  If you have a Cleric that's specialising in a more melee-based setup (heavier armor, buffing spells, etc), you can put them in the front line and have them act as a secondary fighting class (that any Wizard can buff more).  If you've got someone that's more specialised in ranged combat, you could use them to pin down the enemies that may slip past your fighting class.
but remember dont force a player to use a character that he dont like or force the character of a player work in a form that the player dont like, trying to mold the encounter to the capabilities of your party

remember the DM is a friend of the character and character are for the player fun.

but as DM you may put some of challenge to the game for
to not miss the fun
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Aye, that's why I wanted to know some tips on working with heavily unbalanced teams to make a campaign that's still fun, without punishing the lack of party balance.  Stuff like thematic suggestions, what to look out for, what to avoid, etc.  Maybe a couple of example campaigns could be nice.

Right now, the setup looks to be:  Wizard (2), Cleric(1)/Sorcerer(1), Sorcerer(2), Spellthief (2), and Fighter(3).  So yeah, heavy on the casting, espcially since, as I said before, the figher looks like they'll be picking up some spells too, due to their high INT score.
Aye, that's why I wanted to know some tips on working with heavily unbalanced teams to make a campaign that's still fun, without punishing the lack of party balance.  Stuff like thematic suggestions, what to look out for, what to avoid, etc.  Maybe a couple of example campaigns could be nice.

Right now, the setup looks to be:  Wizard (2), Cleric(1)/Sorcerer(1), Sorcerer(2), Spellthief (2), and Fighter(3).  So yeah, heavy on the casting, espcially since, as I said before, the figher looks like they'll be picking up some spells too, due to their high INT score.

you have many spell caster, now you have a melee and a skilled character for disable traps and help in melee or as a range character.

you can start put a encounter of many minions monster like gobblins, the warrior can defeat them easy, and the mages can defeat a many in a single move with area spells, try a goblind cave adventure your team vs 9 goblins and 1 hobgoblin warrior 2 that the figther can take in a 1 vs 1 will be a fun encounter, will be easy but with some of Challenge because of the luck of the rolls, and for the spellthief you can put some CR 1 traps and some lock doors, and if your mages dont have area spell any damage spell they have can defeat a gobblin in a single blow or can use summon monster to help the melee and as a boss you can put some goblin mage or a hobgoblin barbarian lv 3 or 4 with 4 goblins and 2 hobgoblins, and for casual encounters 4-5 goblins or 3-4 hobgoblins or some dire rats or a mixture of them.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Thanks for the suggestions, we'll be sure to put them to good use.  Since we're low level, nothing epic yet - after all, we've got to make a name for ourselves with the townsfolk before we can get asked to do some of the more difficult jobs, am I right? ^-^
Thanks for the suggestions, we'll be sure to put them to good use.  Since we're low level, nothing epic yet - after all, we've got to make a name for ourselves with the townsfolk before we can get asked to do some of the more difficult jobs, am I right? ^-^

yep, start with easy things and do not let the game will get out of your handa, do not complicate the game till you feel more experienced as dm try to start only the adventure using only Monster manual 1, player handbook, Dungeon Master Guide.


and use Dungeon Master guide 2 and Rules compendium
as support.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
....This came about because we took a personality test, and the idea of "hey, let's actually play the game with these characters!" came up.  Well, many of us liked it, but I've got a few questions as to where to go to help make this work out.

If I may ask, "what personality test?"  I know I've seen some of these so called 'tests' which may help you pick out a character's race and maybe even classes but with the wealth of resources available a given personality can often be played using several different mechanical builds.  I see your list of Wiz2, Sor2, Spellthief2, Cleric1/Sor1, Ftr3 which can be used but I'm not so sure that all of those spellcasters is a good idea; I suspect some bias in the 'test' you used to get those.
First - How many players would make a decent game?  How many is too many/few?  There's quite a few of us who wanted to do it, and while I'm not sure how many will actually pull through, it'd be a good idea to limit how many people should actually join in so it doesn't get too crowded.

The game assumes party of four PCs who have stats close to the elite array (point buy 25) and equipment appropriate to their level.  Now too many/few really depends on a number of factors because some DMs can lead a character on a solo adventure while other groups have figured out how to work with large parties.  I'll say that five is an acceptable number and while it is slightly more then expected you could be fine assuming you don't have extremely adept players.  I believe that once you hit seven or eight in a group you may want to have somebody stepping back from a full time PC and being an assistant to the DM.
Second - Where should I look for campaigns designed around skewed parties?  Since we're playing with personality test-born characters, we won't really have a good party balance.  However, I don't think it should be punished really, so since we're caster heavy, a campaign designed with such a party in mind would be useful.  Knowing where to look for ideas for such a campaign would be very helpful.

A party of five isn't too skewed and while you have a lot of spellcasters in there how devestating they are will depend on how optimally they are played.

Although it may not be a lot of help these days I know that many of my third edition adventure/campaign ideas came from the printed version of Dungeon Magazine.  The problem is that it is long out of print and magazines don't have nearly the shelf life that hardcovers do.
Finally, any user-friendly resources you can find to just plain help a newbie player/GM out would be greatly appreciated.

www.d20srd.org/index.htm paying a little more attention to the EXTRAS column which includes an encounter calculator that can help you determine approriate encounters.

Now looking over the later posts I'm not so sure that your party so unbalanced especially if you could make some minor tweaks to it.  The "typical" party is an arcane and divine spellcaster, a 'skill' character, and a melee tough.  The good news is that you have all of those things although you divine spellcaster is splitting his focus and your skill character may not be the most optimal.  I'll also say that your description don't really tell us much about the characters beyond their class; I'm saying this because the Sorcers and Fighter can have a LOT of variation in them depending on the choices made.

We're all more or less noobs, so don't expect any elite level play here.  Hell, I got into enough problems when I asked what prestige classes to plan for, when only wanting a simple build.  I want to make all those mistakes and learn the hard way what works and what doesn't, because that's part of the fun of playing - and I shouldn't be yelled at because of it, you know?  It's not like all of you started off the gate being epic tier players, you learned by playing the game.  I don't want that robbed from us, so that's why most of what I've been asking in this forum has been very general in nature.

We should learn on our own what works and what doesn't, especially after this first campaign where the nature of it is just one big huge gimmick.

Anywho, this is the test:  www.easydamus.com/character.html

How we're handling the magic-heavy nature of our party is that we're each having a different focus, to cover each other.  I'm more of an offensive caster (apparently called a Blaster), while another's gonna be more of a support character, etc.  Basically, we're trying not to get too redundant with the spell selection so that we have a good range of options between us.  Or at least, that's the idea.  Will it work?  Who knows.  Well, I guess you guys, sort of, but a big part of the fun for us is to find that out the hard way, so...

I guess what I'm trying to say is this:  Any tools to help us out so we don't accidently have our GM wipe us all out in a few minutes would be great.  The usual Tips and tricks for a group of newbies, basically.
You keep saying, "nothing epic yet"  I don't even know what that means.  Basically, you should never even consider being "Epic".  Anything that high a level is a dead game.

Your new party sounds fantastic to me.  Take it slow and grow the characters.  Make them rich in personality, and it will be a game worth having plyaed.  I would love to play at your table.

And you keep mentioning "unbalanced team"....  No such thing.  Only poor DM'ing.  We've made games work with two wizards, alone, from first frickin' level!  (Though the most memorable was a 1st level barbarian and a 1st level wizard that made it to 7th level before they got themselves perished).
You keep saying, "nothing epic yet"  I don't even know what that means.  Basically, you should never even consider being "Epic".  Anything that high a level is a dead game.

Your new party sounds fantastic to me.  Take it slow and grow the characters.  Make them rich in personality, and it will be a game worth having plyaed.  I would love to play at your table.

And you keep mentioning "unbalanced team"....  No such thing.  Only poor DM'ing.  We've made games work with two wizards, alone, from first frickin' level!  (Though the most memorable was a 1st level barbarian and a 1st level wizard that made it to 7th level before they got themselves perished).

maybe he refer only a too complicated encounter like someone of 5 players vs 10 npcs.

and if you party try to having a different focus them they doing a well decition and are making the party more valanced maybe need a little more melees but the mages can use summons.

and a DM will have to put challenges that can be overcome for the party unless you try to kill a dragon at lv 1 for you own will.

in the tool that i put the moster search let you find moster per her CR and if you want to have a party that can overcome any challenge your team only need lv up and still try to cover a diferent roll, like a healer, a melee, a skilled, a mage summoner, a mage of attack and a mage of support


Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
The Eberron Campaign Setting book has an adventure for characters and players just starting out.  It's designed to go approximately levels 1-3.
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I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
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When I say epic, I mean Epic Tier, not Epic Levels.  Basically, the kind of builds and campaigns you'd see from veteran players.  Well, I don't want to learn all the tricks of the trade without learning why not to do the other stuff, and the best way to learn that is to do it the hard way and just go into it mostly blind.

Since these characters are all Author Avatars... we'll have lots of personality, and likely hijinx between the bunch of us.  Mystra knows I'll have to keep our fighter from continually chasing my tail... It'll be fun, though.  I don't doubt that.  I just want to make sure it lasts a while, so this is more about DM advice than actual player advice - how to make a campaign for newbs and ease them in to 3.5.  For that, I do thank you guys for linking to the resources you have so far, they've been quite helpful.

You are level 2 casters in 3.5? Get crossbows/slings/bows and be prepared to run away a lot. Its a generally solid plan that will let you live till level 4 or 5 or so, when you have enough spells/defenses to stand and fight fair. 


Ranged weapons really dominate low level 3.5. Most things die in one hit, so you hit them from far away before they get a chance to hit you.

"In a way, you are worse than Krusk"                               " As usual, Krusk comments with assuredness, but lacks the clarity and awareness of what he's talking about"

"Can't say enough how much I agree with Krusk"        "Wow, thank you very much"

"Your advice is the worst"

That's nice, but these questions are more for DMing advice rather than adventuring advice.  I've got another thread for the adventurer advice.
The most important rule of D&D is "Be fair".

Don't worry about memorizing everything, or making mistakes. It's just a game to have fun with your friends.
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Of the two approaches to hobby games today, one is best defined as the realism-simulation school and the other as the game school. AD&D is assuredly an adherent of the latter school. It does not stress any realism (in the author's opinon an absurd effort at best considering the topic!). It does little to attempt to simulate anything either. (AD&D) is first and foremost a game for the fun and enjoyment of those who seek the use of imagination and creativity.... In all cases, however, the reader should understand that AD&D is designed to be an amusing and diverting pastime, something which an fill a few hours or consume endless days, as the participants desire, but in no case something to be taken too seriously. For fun, excitement and captivating fantasy, AD&D is unsurpassed.As a realistic simulation of things from the realm of make-believe or even as a reflection of midieval or ancient warfare or culture or society, it can be deemed only a dismal failure. Readers who seek the later must search elsewhere. - Gary Gygax. 1e DMG.

That's nice, but these questions are more for DMing advice rather than adventuring advice.  I've got another thread for the adventurer advice.


... OK tell your players to buy crossbows, so that you don't accidently kill them all in the first encounter. Then don't include all that many enemies with ranged attacks. A bunch of dudes in trees or on a wall with bows is a very hard encounter for many low level groups. 

"In a way, you are worse than Krusk"                               " As usual, Krusk comments with assuredness, but lacks the clarity and awareness of what he's talking about"

"Can't say enough how much I agree with Krusk"        "Wow, thank you very much"

"Your advice is the worst"

I wouldn't put a lot of faith into that test although it look pretty extensive.  I just took it as my "results" are:

LG Human Wizard 6;
STR 15, DEX 17, CON 17, INT 18, WIS 18, CHA 15

Looking at the details for Alignment I have LG 27, NG 24, LN 24, TN 21, CG 18, ..., CE 3
Law 12, Neutral 9, Chaos, 3; Good 15, Neutral 12, Evil 0

For classes I scored:
Bard, Barbarian, and Druid at -15 or less
Cleric at -4
Monk and Paladin at -2
Fighter and Rogue at 0
Ranger and Sorcerer at 2
Wizard at 6
 
I'll just point out that I'd never let me play "myself" based on those results.