Machine Gun Breathing - Dragonborn Dragonsorcerer

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Sparky: Dragonborn Sorcerer/Ninefold Master / Avatar of Io



Build Goals and Tactics:
The Goal of this build is to be a standard sorcerer who uses and abuses the Dragonbreath racial power.  Hurting themselves with the power and pumping it up through feats to not only make it effectively At-will, but very potent.

Tactics:
Your tactics will change as you go throughout the levels and what variant you are using.  This is a complicated build to play.  Lets get some basic problems out of the way:

Q: So you basically are building to Dragons Breath 3x per turn and nothing else?
A: No, the goal of the build is for Dragons Breath (DB) to be a powerful attack, however it is never worth using your standard to DB.  Throughout much of heroic you are only going to be using DB once per turn max (and only once per encounter at level 1).  Your damage to yourself at low levels is about the same as it is at higher levels, however it is non negligible at low levels.  Taking 1d6 damage at level 2 is a completely different thing than taking 1d6 damage at level 11.

Q: Is the build playable from Level 1?  What level does the build become playable if not level 1?  What level does it truly shine at?

A: The build is perfectly functional at level 1 although the way you recharge your breath won't be online until level 2.  You won't be breathing more than once a turn until the end of heroic (unless you have a good source of surgeless healing in the group).  The build really starts to pick up at level 11 when you can start moving people and enabling people through rearranging the melee (you can push your allies around) and possibly granting attacks (Agile Opportunist).  By the end of Paragon you will be pumping out tons of damage and have daily sources of very high defenses.  Once epic starts you can have an extremely high resistance to any damage type on command due to Wyrmtouched Amulet.

Q: OK, so you said the build hurts itself.  How much damage are you actually doing to yourself?
A: At lower levels 1d6.  At higher levels a good bit less.  After heroic its completely negligible, but below is a list for how much damage you are doing to yourself for heroic levels.  The one thing you need to keep in mind is that each of the numbers listed is not per breath but rather per ally you hit with your breath that you redirect to yourself:

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1: N/A
2: 1d6 (1 temp per breath) or 0-5 if you hit only one ally.
3: 1d6 (1 temp per breath) or 0-5 if you hit only one ally.
4: 1d6 (2 temp per breath) or 0-4 if you hit only one ally. 1 pt of temporary hp possible.
5: 1d6 (2 temp per breath) or 0-4 if you hit only one ally. 1 pt of temporary hp possible.
6: 1d6 (3 temp per breath) or 0-3 if you hit only one ally. 2 pts of temporary hp possible.
7: 1d6 (3 temp per breath) or 0-3 if you hit only one ally. 2 pts of temporary hp possible.
8: 1d6+1 (4 temp per breath) or 0-3 if you hit only one ally. 2 pts of temporary hp possible.
9: 1d6+1 (4 temp per breath) or 0-3 if you hit only one ally. 2 pts of temporary hp possible.
10: 1d6+2 (5 temp per breath) or 0-3 if you hit only one ally. 2 pts of temporary hp possible.


Level 1 Snapshot
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Race: Dragonborn
Dragonborn Racial Power: Dragon Breath
Dragon Breath Key Ability: Dragon Breath Strength
Dragon Breath Damage Type: Dragon Breath Lightning
Class: Sorcerer
Spell Source: Dragon Magic
Dragon Soul: Lightning
Background: Auspicious Birth
Theme: Sensate

Ability Scores, with racial adjustments:
Strength 18 (+4)
Constitution 12 (+1)
Dexterity 12 (+1)
Intelligence 10 (+0)
Wisdom 8 (-1)
Charisma 18 (+4)


HP: 30
Bloodied: 15
Healing Surges: 7
Healing Surge Value: 8


AC: 14
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 11
Will: 16

Initiative
: 1
Speed: 6


At-Will Attack Powers:


L1 – Burning Spray
L1 – Storm Walk


Encounter Attack Power:


L1 - Explosive Pyre


Daily Attack Power:


L1 - Dragonfang Bolt


Breath Weapon:


Dragon Breath
Encounter – Minor Action
Close Blast 3 – Target: Each creature in blast
Keywords: Lightning
Attack: +6 vs Refex
Hit: 1d6 +1 Lightning damage.


Skills:


Arcana 5
Bluff 9
Diplomacy 9
Intimidate 11


Feats:


L1 – Staff Expertise


Gear (Expected GP =100):


Staff Implement
Cloth Armor
Adventurer's Kit
Dagger
79gp


Discussion:
At this point you are mostly a generic Sorcerer. You don't have many of the tricks. The goal here is setting yourself up for next level when your combo comes online. Your theme also won't give you anything quite yet. You will be wanting to have your Strength and Charisma level together as you go, keeping them even for your whole career. Your con needs to be at least 11 because you need to have a con mod of +1 in paragon to get all the bang for your buck out of Thundering Breath.


You don't have a lot of wiggle room when it comes to your spellsource, race, class or dragonborn racial options. The combo you are setting up for level 2 simply will not function unless you have all the right pieces working together.


Why Lightning? The short answer is that Lightning is better damage than the other options, but only in Paragon and later. Lightning is also very rarely resisted by anything. If you are going to be able to rebuild between heroic and paragon or you are not planning on going into paragon fire is a very strong option. Lightning will require you to use your weapon enchant to make your attacks the same type as your breath, since a lot of the attacks you will want to pick aren't lightning and you can easily pick up almost all the attacks you want from fire. Fire also allows you to easily use Burning Spray to recover your Dragon Breath as early as level 2.


Variations:
Your At-wills at this level are decently open. If you have a group with someone that can grant lots of RBAs you can go with Acid Orb. Otherwise go with Ensorcelled Blade. In the early levels the breather build wants to be in melee as much as possible (not as important later on with the addition of Hurl Breath).


Things to remember:
+1 Attacks while bloodied.
+2 AC after you are bloodied for the remainder of the encounter.
Your Dragon Breath cannot recover at this level.
All of your arcane damage rolls get the bonus of your dragon magic. This includes the secondary damage rolls of things like Explosive Pyre. Dragon Breath is NOT an arcane attack as this level, so it does not get the damage bonus from your spell source.
This will be the only level that you have Staff Expertise.


Level 2

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Changes:
+5 HP
+1 to attacks, defenses and checks


New Feat: Nusemnee's Atonement
Retraining: Staff Expertise → Ancient Soul
New Utility Power: Dragonflame Mantle (Note: Arcane Keyword)
Breath Weapon:
Dragon Breath
Encounter – Minor Action
Close Blast 3 – Target: Each creature in blast
Keywords: Lightning, Arcane
Attack: +6 vs Refex
Hit: 1d6 +5 Lightning damage.
Effect (From Sensate): You gain 1 temporary hit point.


Magic Items (Expected GP = 1,920):


Discussion:


Now your combo is online. Everytime you dragon's breath an ally you can redirect the damage to yourself and recover your breath. Your Sensate feature is now online so you can blunt a little of the damge you direct from yourself. At this level you will be dealing 6-11 damage to your enemies and allies every breath (0-5 to yourself due to the combination of temporary hit points and the resistance granted to you from Nusemnee's Atonement). At this level, even with the help from Sensate, you are in danger of hurting yourself too much if you breath too often. Unless your party has a way of regenerating, have some surgeless heals or something along those lines you are going to want to limit your breath weapon to 1/turn. Just don't hurt yourself when you are in risk of getting hurt by others.


Things to remember:


A frequently forgotten part of NA is that it gives you a +2 feat bonus to saving throws against charm effects. Charm effects aren't common in heroic, but that's all the more reason why people forget it by the time they get to use that part of the feat in late heroic or paragon.


Variants:


The fire breath heroic variant can also use Burning Spray to recover their breath. Be aware that Burning Spray does a lot of damage so your redirection will cost you.

 
Level 3
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Changes:
+5 HP
New Encounter Attack Power: Flame Spiral
Magic Items (Expected GP = 2,560):

Things to remember
:
Flame Spiral secondary gets the extra damage from you spell source on the secondary effect.

Level 4

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Changes:
+5 HP
+1 to attacks, defenses and checks
Ability Score Boosts: +1 Strength (19), +1 Charisma (19)
New Feat: Hurl Breath

Breath Weapon:
Dragon Breath
Encounter – Minor Action
Close Blast 3 or Area 2 in 10 – Target: Each creature in blast
Keywords: Lightning, Arcane
Attack: +8 vs Refex
Hit: 1d6 +5 Lightning damage.
Effect (From Sensate): You gain 2 temporary hit points.


Magic Items (Expected GP = 3,200):


Things to Remember:
While Hurl Breath allows you to use it as a ranged attack, you can always use it as a Close Blast in times where you would otherwise provoke an OA.


Variants:
Your feat at this level is part preference, part party makeup. The choices you have to pick from are Hurl Breath and Draconic Spellcaster. The fire variant can very easily stick with all fire spells and get the full benefit from DS, but the utility of Hurl Breath is amazing.


Level 5

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Changes:
+5 HP
New Daily Attack Power: Slaad's Gambit

Magic Items (Expected GP = 4,480):


Level 6
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Changes:
+5 HP
+1 to attacks, defenses and checks
New Feat: Inspiring Breath
Retraining: Hurl Breath → Resourceful Leader
Skill Training: Athletics
New Utility Power: Sudden Scales

Breath Weapon:
Dragon Breath
Encounter – Minor Action
Close Blast 3 – Target: Each creature in blast
Keywords: Lightning, Arcane
Attack: +9 vs Refex
Hit: 1d6 +5 Lightning damage. Your allies gain a +5 bonus to damage rolls against this enemy until the end of your next turn.
Effect (From Sensate): You gain 3 temporary hit points.


Magic Items (Expected GP = 6,400):


Discussion:
Whatever you trained at 4, its time to give it up. Why? Because the combination of the two feats you are gaining at this level can be a large damage boost for an average party and a huge damage boost for parties that have lots of enablers and/or multi attackers. Imagine two of this build in the same group? +5 damage is a lot, especially in heroic tier.


Things to remember:
Resourceful Leader makes you function a little bit like a warlord so now you have to be paying attention to everyone else's Action Points. The extra damage from your dragonbreath is only for your allies.


Level 7

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Changes:
+5 HP
New Encounter Attack Power: Spark Form

Magic Items (Expected GP = 9,600):


Things to remember:
All the damage rolls with Spark Form get the bonus from your dragon magic spell source. Sparkform is also one of the best ways you have to set up for effective breaths. Remember you no longer have your hurl breath, so you aren't going to be able to make your large bursts from range. At this level your Temp generation makes it where you are only going to be taking damage half the time. And a low damage roll means that you are netting Temps.


Level 8

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Changes:
+5 HP
+1 to attacks, defenses and checks
Ability Score Boosts: +1 Strength (20), +1 Charisma (20)
New Feat: Hurl Breath

Breath Weapon:
Dragon Breath
Encounter – Minor Action
Close Blast 3 or Area 2 in 10 – Target: Each creature in blast
Keywords: Lightning, Arcane
Attack: +11 vs Refex
Hit: 1d6 +6 Lightning damage. Your allies gain a +5 bonus to damage rolls against this enemy until the end of your next turn.
Effect (From Sensate): You gain 4 temporary hit points.


Magic Items (Expected GP = 12,800):


Things to Remember:
While Hurl Breath allows you to use it as a ranged attack, you can always use it as a Close Blast in times where you would otherwise provoke an OA. Also your strength mod increased by one making your breath more accurate and more damaging.


Level 9

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Changes:
+5 HP
New Daily Attack Power: Adamantine Echo

Magic Items (Expected GP = 16,000):


Level 10
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Changes:
+5 HP
+1 to attacks, defenses and checks
New Feat: Draconic Spellcaster

Breath Weapon:
Dragon Breath
Encounter – Minor Action
Close Blast 3 or Area 2 in 10 – Target: Each creature in blast
Keywords: Lightning, Arcane
Attack: +13 vs Refex
Hit: 1d6 +7 Lightning damage. Your allies gain a +5 bonus to damage rolls against this enemy until the end of your next turn.
Effect (From Sensate): You gain 5 temporary hit points.


Magic Items (Expected GP = 22,400):


Things to Remember:
This is the point where the builder starts showing how poorly it has been programmed. The builder will not apply Draconic Spellcaster to dragonbreath and will also not apply it to anything with damage types changed by weapons or implements.

 
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reserved for paragon 
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
reserved for epic 
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
reserved for item discussion
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
Reserved for Variants
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
Maybe you should consider armor proficiency: leather or unarmored agility for heroic tier play. Focussing all your feats purely around dragon breath is nice, but without any defensive feats + damaging yourself through your temp HP shields, you will drop really fast. Realistic play will see you get focussed a lot due to your attacks + fragility and I don't think you can take the punishment.
UA I find to be a waste of time as a feat.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
UA I find to be a waste of time as a feat.



Because +2 ac vs the most common attack type in heroic is a bad thing? He is at level +13 vs ac and additionally damages himself by breath. Do you expect him to survive long?
Yes, an extra couple of points of AC on a striker whose secondary is AC and cloth really isn't worth it. If my Sorcs take it at all, its in late paragon when I have the feat space.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
UA I find to be a waste of time as a feat.



Because +2 ac vs the most common attack type in heroic is a bad thing? He is at level +13 vs ac and addiditonally dmaages himself by breath. Do you expect him to survive long?



Having UA would be great, except I simply do not have the feat space for it.  While your defenses are initially fairly bad, they increase quite a bit as you level.  Also, you really don't do that much damage to yourself, and the amount of damage outgoing means that things melt really fast.  Especially once Inspiring breath gets added in with anything that multi-attacks.

But yes, the build is a little frail at low levels.  When I go into the details on equipment much of the equipment will be prioritized for defenses and healing if needed. 
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You get +2 to AC first time you're bloodied and it lasts the rest of the encounter and you get temps every time you use DB so you actually aren't damaging yourself. AC really isn't an issue.
A Revenant (Dragonborn) Warlock|Sorc/Ninefold Master could work well too and function very easily. CHA+DEX, hybrid talent for dragon soul, Chromatic bolt admixed for lightning. Shoot the enemy and get curse damage, damage yourself for 1-2 points of damage from con mod with the secondary effect charging DB, then blast them with DB without having to damage yourself with it.

That way you control exaclty how much damage you take (only con mod from chromatic bolt), and are free to maximize DB damage without concern for yourself.
Thats a terrible idea. The perk of Full Striker is the ability to
A. get all the amazing Str. Utilities
B. Get all the frankly stellar sorc dailies and encounter powers
C. Add Str+2/4 to all damage
D. basically get +2 to AC 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Too bad it doesn't fall into place until 30 but there is the SM/Ninefold Master/Arcane Sword

Ninefold Master -> Dragon Breath is now an Encounter Swordmage power
Arcane Sword -> Choose an Encounter Swordmage power, that power is now an at will power for you

Congrats.  You now have a 100% at will minor power that is completely item and setting independent and does not need to be recharged so you could do it 3 times a round completely safe.

Edit:  The swordmage part could be mc.
Too bad it doesn't fall into place until 30 but there is the SM/Ninefold Master/Arcane Sword

Ninefold Master -> Dragon Breath is now an Encounter Swordmage power
Arcane Sword -> Choose an Encounter Swordmage power, that power is now an at will power for you

Congrats.  You now have a 100% at will minor power that is completely item and setting independent and does not need to be recharged so you could do it 3 times a round completely safe.

Despite all the hoops you have to jump through, it is actually a much stronger build to not do it that way. Your MC is incredibly valuable, for one thing, and losing hit/damage from your ED is a big deal (potentially +3 to hit/+4 to damage from that alone).

When Windrise Ports existed it had some potential.
Too bad it doesn't fall into place until 30 but there is the SM/Ninefold Master/Arcane Sword

Ninefold Master -> Dragon Breath is now an Encounter Swordmage power
Arcane Sword -> Choose an Encounter Swordmage power, that power is now an at will power for you

Congrats.  You now have a 100% at will minor power that is completely item and setting independent and does not need to be recharged so you could do it 3 times a round completely safe.

Edit:  The swordmage part could be mc.



Not falling into place until 30 is unacceptable for builds in my view.

Recharging is almost never an issue after heroic.

The FAQ section also states that you will not be using your Standard for Dbreath basically ever.  There could be some niche minion clearing fight where you want to, but in nearly every circumstance Standard Action Sorc power > Dbreath.  Not because your Dbreath isn't strong, but because your Sorc powers are just that good.  The point of the Breath build isn't to gimp the hell out of yourself in order to make breath viable.  It is to take a solid-in-its-own-right sorc build and toss some minor action goodness on top of it.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
A Revenant (Dragonborn) Warlock|Sorc/Ninefold Master could work well too and function very easily. CHA+DEX, hybrid talent for dragon soul, Chromatic bolt admixed for lightning. Shoot the enemy and get curse damage, damage yourself for 1-2 points of damage from con mod with the secondary effect charging DB, then blast them with DB without having to damage yourself with it.

That way you control exaclty how much damage you take (only con mod from chromatic bolt), and are free to maximize DB damage without concern for yourself.



Few problems with this in no particular order

First off you are using your standard action in a sub-par way to recharge something you should be recharging for free.
Second you won't be able to ping yourself multiple times for Lightning Soul if you so desire.
Third you are either losing the "I don't care if I hit allies with my DB" part of the build, or you are going to have to use the already cramped feat space to fix the fact that you are blasting your allies with your breath.
Fourth if you are going to hybrid anything you are going to hybrid it with fighter and MC assassin to make yourself an invisible mass marking defender.
Fifth, your recharge as a standard means that once you get to the levels that you want to DB more than once per turn you can't after the first turn of double breathing.  Minor breath, recharge standard, move-> minor breath.  Next turn standard recharge, minor breath, move something else. At low levels you don't want to breathe a lot, but at higher levels you most certainly do.
Last but not least, if you are recharging with an at-will you aren't getting temps when you are hitting yourself and have to rely on temps gained from other breaths which seems less good.  At that point you might as well not take the theme that seems tailor made for breathers. 
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
This is the point where the builder starts showing how poorly it has been programmed. The builder will not apply Draconic Spellcaster to dragonbreath



Dragon Breath doesn't have the arcane keyword, so why would it?  Did I overlook something in your build?

Thanks, I did overlook several things.  Idiocy struck out.

It gains the arcane keyword with feats and the PP makes it a sorcerer power.
Thats a terrible idea. The perk of Full Striker is the ability to
A. get all the amazing Str. Utilities
B. Get all the frankly stellar sorc dailies and encounter powers
C. Add Str+2/4 to all damage
D. basically get +2 to AC 



A is true, but you get plenty of nice warlock utilities to choose from instead.

B. You still have the option of the sorc dailies and enounter powers, but also get the option of the warlock powers too.

C. You instead get dex+2/+4 to sorc powers (which includes DB thanks to ninefold master), and get curse damage on warlock powers (which includes DB thanks to ninefold master).

D. True, but since you can pump the DB damage to the limit without concern for yourself, that becomes much less of an issue.
I put Honorable Blade forward as the superior PP
The f11 on Ninefold is wasted, but HBs lets you admix everything
the AP11 and f16 are equal, and the u12 and e11 in HB are awesome. What say you! 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
I put Honorable Blade forward as the superior PP
The f11 on Ninefold is wasted, but HBs lets you admix everything
the AP11 and f16 are equal, and the u12 and e11 in HB are awesome. What say you! 

Ninefold makes DB count as a Sorc power. Sorcerous Flux means you can target allies and assign all the crits to the monsters and/or to your focus fire target, rather then a random monster in the bunch. Doesn't come on till Epic, but Ninefold is markedly superior when it does.

Plus all the hybrid/MC options. If you hybrid Warlock, DB can trigger curse. MC Wizard presents some interesting options, as well.
I prefer it single target, and frankly, so few people play epic.

Edit: what the hell does Breath get on a crit? 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
I prefer it single target, and frankly, so few people play epic.

Edit: what the hell does Breath get on a crit? 

You're optimizing an AE class with a minor action burst and you are doing single-target? What? That makes no sense.

Depends on what you add to the build. Normally, max damage, which isn't that impressive. But there are options. Explosive Spellcasting even adds crit dice, though Sorcerous Flux doesn't help you there because you can apply the crit dice to any target anyway.
I honestly can't tell you what I was thinking typing that. But my point stands. Its not that important to get on breath that you're blowing your PP
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Not all that much, and if you're going Lightning/Thunder, Lightning Arc matters more for crits than Sorc Flux. Aside from the feat space, Lightning Arc is a slight DPR increase for powers that would be rolling crit dice from Staff of Ruin or Lancing Lightning.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Too bad it doesn't fall into place until 30 but there is the SM/Ninefold Master/Arcane Sword

Ninefold Master -> Dragon Breath is now an Encounter Swordmage power
Arcane Sword -> Choose an Encounter Swordmage power, that power is now an at will power for you

Congrats.  You now have a 100% at will minor power that is completely item and setting independent and does not need to be recharged so you could do it 3 times a round completely safe.

Edit:  The swordmage part could be mc.



Not falling into place until 30 is unacceptable for builds in my view.

Recharging is almost never an issue after heroic.

The FAQ section also states that you will not be using your Standard for Dbreath basically ever.  There could be some niche minion clearing fight where you want to, but in nearly every circumstance Standard Action Sorc power > Dbreath.  Not because your Dbreath isn't strong, but because your Sorc powers are just that good.  The point of the Breath build isn't to gimp the hell out of yourself in order to make breath viable.  It is to take a solid-in-its-own-right sorc build and toss some minor action goodness on top of it.

I dunno about standard sorc actions always being > DBreath.

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

+39 to hit vs reflex
3d6+64 damage, push8, push8 again, dazed, -8 to hit, proned, slowed and immobilized in a friendly 5x5 area at 10 range -> all for 1 minor action.

Lathaen
Your damage taken is a lot higher than you think because you penetrate your own resistance.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Your damage taken is a lot higher than you think because you penetrate your own resistance.

Assuming you attacked yourself. But you're using NA.
I dunno about standard sorc actions always being > DBreath.

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

+39 to hit vs reflex
3d6+64 damage, push8, push8 again, dazed, -8 to hit, proned, slowed and immobilized in a friendly 5x5 area at 10 range -> all for 1 minor action.

Lathaen


You clearly do not understand the mechanics of what you're doing.
Dragon Breath is not a SM power because you are only MC'd into it, so you only count for the purposes of prerequisites, which does not apply to the Ninefold Master feature. You can just be a Fighter|SM though, so whatever.
Dragon Breath is neither an Implement Power nor are you "using a mace", so Dizzying Mace, Superior Implement, and DIS do not apply. -1 hit -10 damage and no attack penalty.
Targets are also not marked until after you hit them with the first attack, -7 damage on that.
How are you knocking prone? WSG isn't in your build.
So +38 vs Ref 42, 3d6+47 followed by +40 (42 if already hit once) vs Ref 42 for 3d6+49 (56 if already hit once)
You're doing maybe 15 more damage on the 2nd hit than a Sorc Rebreather (iirc), and regardless Flame Spiral is 35/37 to hit for 1d10+62 (hit) +(1d6+54)*2+#Allies with forced movement (auto) without touching any cheese other than MoS and Gifts; Lightning Soul, Fiery Blood, and Thunder's Rumble add a total of 18 damage per adjacent target (+15 to one of them) by using NA, easily making up for the lack of Deadly Immobilization.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
I dunno about standard sorc actions always being > DBreath.

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

+39 to hit vs reflex
3d6+64 damage, push8, push8 again, dazed, -8 to hit, proned, slowed and immobilized in a friendly 5x5 area at 10 range -> all for 1 minor action.

Lathaen


You clearly do not understand the mechanics of what you're doing.
Dragon Breath is not a SM power because you are only MC'd into it, so you only count for the purposes of prerequisites, which does not apply to the Ninefold Master feature. You can just be a Fighter|SM though, so whatever.
Dragon Breath is neither an Implement Power nor are you "using a mace", so Dizzying Mace, Superior Implement, and DIS do not apply. -1 hit -10 damage and no attack penalty.
Targets are also not marked until after you hit them with the first attack, -7 damage on that.
How are you knocking prone? WSG isn't in your build.
So +38 vs Ref 42, 3d6+47 followed by +40 (42 if already hit once) vs Ref 42 for 3d6+49 (56 if already hit once)
You're doing maybe 15 more damage on the 2nd hit than a Sorc Rebreather (iirc), and regardless Flame Spiral is 35/37 to hit for 1d10+62 (hit) +(1d6+54)*2+#Allies with forced movement (auto) without touching any cheese other than MoS and Gifts; Lightning Soul, Fiery Blood, and Thunder's Rumble add a total of 18 damage per adjacent target (+15 to one of them) by using NA, easily making up for the lack of Deadly Immobilization.

So using the battle-pact rod does not count as "using a mace" for purposes of dizzying mace? If DIS does not apply, then sub in WSG.


Property


This rod can be used as a melee weapon, functioning as a mace. You add its enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls of melee weapon attacks.

Also, your flame spiral will be only used once during an encounter, unless you recharge it somehow, and then still only usable once per your standard actions. There is no Char-op way to put value on tactics... but I would take a ranged friendly burst over a burst centered on me where I need to be surrounded by enemies anyday. Also for Lightning Soul, Fiery Blood, and Thunder's Rumble, you need enemies to be adjacent to you, and one within 5. You would need to spend your move to get into position hoping that the enemies are lined up so everything falls into place. I would just breathe on them again. TR is also counter-productive, since you want to have the enemies adjacent to you, not pushing them away.
Dragon breath does not have the implement or weapon keyword, so even though ninefold master allows you to apply the enhancement Bonus of your implement to damage you are not considered to be attacking with it.
Dragon breath does not have the implement or weapon keyword, so even though ninefold master allows you to apply the enhancement Bonus of your implement to damage you are not considered to be attacking with it.

Since I have 2 implements, one in each hand, I have to specify which one I am going to apply the bonus from.

For example. Are you saying that in this particular case, I can apply a +6 bonus from a plain magical implement, and because I am not technically "using" it for the attack, I can then use the properties of my other implement that has effects on attacking or hitting with an arcane power? (this other implement has a lower +bonus)

I thought that in order to "wield" an implement, you have to be proficient and have to be "using" the implement.

Breath Expertise (11th level): Your dragon breath power is considered an arcane power belonging to each of your arcane classes. If you are wielding an implement you can use for your arcane powers, you may add the implement’s enhancement bonus to the damage rolls for your dragon breath power.

Since I am wielding it and using it, wouldn't the rod/mace be affected by dizzying mace?

This rod can be used as a melee weapon, functioning as a mace

I know DB does not have the weapon nor the implement keyword, but I still have to wield some sort of implement that I can normally use for my arcane powers in order to get a bonus at all.

When you hit an enemy with a power that dazes the target while you are using a mace,
Did I hit an enemy - check
Did the power daze the target - check
Did I use something that has the mace property - check
Dizzying mace does not state a weapon power nor an implement power, it is just a power.

Lath
Again, DB does not have the Implement or Weapon keyword. You are never "using" an Implement or a Weapon with DB. You get to add the Enhancement to damage. That is all you get. So no, you are not "using" a mace when you hit with DB.

Dizzying Mace doesn't need to specify that, because it is a general rule for all powers.
Again, DB does not have the Implement or Weapon keyword. You are never "using" an Implement or a Weapon with DB. You get to add the Enhancement to damage. That is all you get. So no, you are not "using" a mace when you hit with DB.

Dizzying Mace doesn't need to specify that, because it is a general rule for all powers.

So my example could work then Alcestis? Use a generic +6 item to get the big enhancement to damage, but then use the property of a different implement, say a staff of the war mage?


Power Daily (Free Action)


Use this power when using a power that has a blast or a burst effect. Increase the size of the blast or the burst by 1.



That'd work in general.... the rule for magic weapons applying to a given attack concerns properties of the weapon. Not powers. That is why, for instance, Frost Weapon's power says "Use this power when you hit with the weapon." If it didn't specifically say you had to hit with the Frost Weapon, you could hit with any wapon and use the power.
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Does honorable blade transfer to spells cast through a melee weapon that is also your implement? " to all damage dealt with your melee weapon" .
Does honorable blade transfer to spells cast through a melee weapon that is also your implement? " to all damage dealt with your melee weapon" .



Yes. Even though you may be using the melee weapon as an implement for the power, it is still damage dealt by your melee weapon.
If you were planning on taking the build into epic, wouldn't you want to start with at least 13 dex so you could pick up expanded crits at epic?
If you were planning on taking the build into epic, wouldn't you want to start with at least 13 dex so you could pick up expanded crits at epic?



There's no expanded crit feats that would apply to dragon breath since it lacks the implement and weapon keywords.