Proficiency bonus and equipment uniqueness

Maybe this has already been discussed to boredom I dont know...

I notice that the proficiecy bonuses of all weapons are now equal instead of variable. I feel that this cuts a huge dimension out of the distinction between the weapons. Now I see that the damage type have been reintroduced and that is nice, but still...  I felt that the differentiation between heavy hitters and accurracy weapons gave something to the game and I would rather see it emphasized than removed.. 

What are you others opinions about this?

Also I see that there is a general trend of removing modifiers to attack rolls and replacing them with damage modifiers..  but why not keep both dimensions? There is also the problem with damage modifiers not scaling at all while attack modifiers mean the same thing regardless of level..

A realted thing is the armor list...   why is the discriminating quality between armors of the same category only price? Why not slap on some serious armor penalties on the heavier armours? Something that migh make one fighter to pick ringmail over platemail, while another would rather pick a splintmail.

All above can relly be summed up as:
Should equipment choice really only be a minor reflection of wealth (level) and class balance (feats, proficiencies)?
Why not make equipment choice a matter of playstyle and an important source of customization?
 
Also I see that there is a general trend of removing modifiers to attack rolls and replacing them with damage modifiers..  but why not keep both dimensions? There is also the problem with damage modifiers not scaling at all while attack modifiers mean the same thing regardless of level.. 



Have you heard them mention bounded accuracy? What you are seeing is an attempt at some level to keep the d20 roll relevant throughout your characters career. And to allow a broader set of characters to operate together and also as adversaries before they get locked out.(the accuracy gains put a real tight span limit on it.)

  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

But modifiers don't need to be the same, as that is the ultimate result of bounded accuracy which can also be restated as nobody is different.  There is such a thing as taking it too far.

The dagger assassin should be more accurate than the raging greataxer, that is just the way D&D is and they should not change the notion of making a tradeoff between dmg vs. accuracy.   Be it on the class or the weapon or the speciality it does not really matter, the only way to model accuracy is with the modifiers, and there should be variability there otherwise lets just forgo the d20 and roll for dmg using only 1d8 instead.    The weapons should not be turned into pure flavor that have no mechanical differences.

I would not use advantage/disadvantage for this because then I think the differences get too large and it can't do smaller differences.

Yea, I liked the variable bonuses too. It would be nice to see a few accurate weapons with a +3 bonus instead of a +2 bonus… the only problem is that the extra +1 to hit is a very potent bonus. It is strictly superior to a higher sized damage die. So, I can understand why they removed it. 

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />The dagger assassin should be more accurate than the raging greataxer, that is just the way D&D is and they should not change the notion of making a tradeoff between dmg vs. accuracy.



Actually, that's only the way 4th edition was. Previous editions didn't have this.

However,  I too would like to see some variations with the weapons, but things that make a bit more sense. I never liked the "damage output is the only difference" mechanic either. I wouldn't be opposed to an accuracy bonus with certain lower damage weapons, actually (although trying to find an opening to stab that raging axeman would be quite difficult for the dagger assassin - just try getting close enough to stab someone wielding a huge axe!).
Everything expressed in this post is my opinion, and should be taken as such. I can not declare myself to be the supreme authority on all matters...even though I am right!

Have you heard them mention bounded accuracy? What you are seeing is an attempt at some level to keep the d20 roll relevant throughout your characters career. And to allow a broader set of characters to operate together and also as adversaries before they get locked out.(the accuracy gains put a real tight span limit on it.)



As long as the accuracy gains / losses are kept relatively stable during the levels there is no problem with the characters getting out of range of each other. Sure if bonuses accumulate over levels, then there is a serious problem, but equipment bonuses (nonmagical-mundane-equipmentlist-choices) are the same at lvl 1 and lvl 20.

So if two characters, one with a rapier and one with a greataxe would be at a few points accuracy difference that will still keep their rolls relevant as long as they are at the same point difference at a higher lvl.

Seen in such a way, I cant see the problem with variable proficiencies.

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If I would design this I would put proficiency bonuses in the range -1 to +1 on weapons (most weapons on +-0) with the masterwork being another +1 (and maybe 'rusty low quality crap' as another -1).

There is no point to put the baseline at +2, just make non-proficient use of a weapon = disadvantage on attacks.
And even non-proficient wielders should experience the accuracy diff between 2-non-proficient weapons.

Then I would also put -1 ATTACK modifier on some armors to give them some flavour, together with more variability in the stealth checks and speed mods.

I could make an example of such an equipment list..
Yea, I liked the variable bonuses too. It would be nice to see a few accurate weapons with a +3 bonus instead of a +2 bonus… the only problem is that the extra +1 to hit is a very potent bonus. It is strictly superior to a higher sized damage die. So, I can understand why they removed it. 



Yes, a one dice-size diff does not make up for a +1 to hit, and also the dice difference becomes irrelevant at high levels (unless there is X[W] like 4E).

To just inflate the damage difference would not be a good thing as it would either make daggers irrelevant or greatswords oneshot everything.
So a more interesting way to handle it would be to give heavy weapons some other bonus besides flat damage dice, something compelling enough for some characters to take a hit penalty.

i like the way weapons work in one system i played (cant remember what)

weapons were varied with damage die, but also had different properties as well.

properties would include;
init mods
AC bonus
max dex penalty for AC
and extras applied on rolls a certain number or higher such as armour penetration, wounding, slowing, etc
Some kind of Armor Penetration ability would be interesting to add to heavy weapons. Something that made them more powerful against heavily armored foes, while leaving their usefullness against lighter armoured foes the same. (That would of course also require that monsters with natural heavy armor woule be classified as 'Heavily armoured')
How about instead of accuracy bonuses (due to bounded accuracy) how about initiative modifiers even a simple +/- 1 or 2 would show a big diferance. A dagger might get a +2 initiative whereas a maul would get a -2.
Longer reach trumps... 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

How about instead of accuracy bonuses (due to bounded accuracy) how about initiative modifiers even a simple +/- 1 or 2 would show a big diferance. A dagger might get a +2 initiative whereas a maul would get a -2.



Your rogue assassin is likely the best inititiative already, being more first does not help.   Being higher speed would though!

I was sure proficiency had always been there, non-proficiency is what AD&D had in addition to dmg deltas for large creatures and weapon AC deltas.    Accuracy penalty instead of accuracy bonus, thus anyone proficient was a +0 so indeed the net effect was no variation amongst the proficient.   Since nobody was stupid enough to use a weapon that was not of their class proficiency the penalty never really applied.

To support bounded accuracy modifiers need to be +/-, so instead of +0/+2/+3, make it  -2/+0/+1.   The penalty default can be baked into the system so that nobody is psychology damaged by getting a visible penalty, but that takes us right back to the  +0/+2/+3 that 4e had so they already did that.   And all the plusses is what 5e wants to fix of 4e.   So you need to have penalty if you want bounded accuracy, so stop being so PC towards PC.

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