Generating ability scores

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I don't like any method presented for generating ability scores for D&D, and generally I prefer to play point-buy games vs. random generation, so I came up with this for my group and thought I'd share.

You start with a 10 in each score and have 12 points to spend to increase any score you'd like.  You can buy any score up to 18 max, just as you can roll an 18 max, each 1 point increase in score costing you 1 point.  You can also decrease any ability score by 1 or more (down to 6 at the most) for an additional 1 point per decrease to use elsewhere.  This corresponds to the standard array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8).

Some examples:
18,18,18,6,6,6
12,12,12,12,12,12
18,12,12,10,10,10
15,14,13,12,10,8 ;)

To me, this is way better than rolling for scores (that's fun every now and then for me, but not always) or everyone starting with the same exact numbers, even if not in the same scores. Cool

If you want to vary the number of points used to customize ability scores, it's your game, go right ahead and do it.

My players would cry if they would not be allowed to roll their scores =P

Seriously though..   I think many players would feel forced to pick an 18 with this system, as the cost is linear.
A good thing with it is that it encourages <10 scores

  1. Start with 11/11/11/10/10/10

  2. Roll 6d4

  3. For each die, add that number to one score and subtract it from another, but no score can be greater than 18 or lower than 3

  4. Rearrange the resulting array as desired

Roll a d6 six times.  Apply the last roll to Charisma.  Arrange the rest however you like.  I love rolling up characters.
Apply the last roll to Charisma.

Any real reason, or is it just a heavy-handed reaction to dump-stating?

It is a reaction to dump-stating.  And I meant to say roll 4d6 six times, not one.  You still have 5 scores to play with.
It's like insisting the skinny kids who always get picked last instead always be the team captains, while no one seems to accept that those skinny kids would rather read a book or something.
Its just one out of six scores.  It won't break the build.
Then why forbid ignoring it?

Well, all we're talking about is a house rule anyway.  The ultimate game will probably have point buys, arrays AND rolling for attributes.  It'll be a pick and choose thing.
Lol, most of my players always puts a high score on charisma even though it gives their class nothing..  WIS or STR is generally the dump stats, mainly because noone likes to play a stupid or ugly/boring character..  a low WIS score can easily ble played as naive/inexperienced in a fun way and STR is just for brutes anyways.
CHA was a dump stat because it didn't really do very much.  3e, 4e, and SWSE tried to fix that.
Yea I was mainly saying that different players have different priorities and therefore different dump stats, those in my group focuses much on the roleplaying and CHA is thus generally seen as an important stat.

I havent played anything earlier than 2E, but in my opinon stats were best balanced and defined in 3E.

In 4E it felt like since all classes redefined what the stats actually meant they all got pointless..
(Somehow a STR 8 WIS 20 Avenger can fight effectively with a two handed sword...  supposedly that also means he can lift it..    so you get the impression of some sort of divinely empowered strenght..  either way the str score did not seem to directly correlate to strenght anymore.)
CHA was a dump stat because it didn't really do very much.  3e, 4e, and SWSE tried to fix that.

Absolutely FALSE. Mechanically speaking, perhaps. But in the context of the game, Charisma has always played a very important part; Unless the DM doesn't know what they are doing.

I dare you play a character with low Charisma in one of my campaigns...you'd be enjoying crow for saying such a falsehood.

D&D Next - Basic and Expert Editions

I firmly believe that there should be two editions of the game; the core rules released as a "Basic" set and a more complicated expanded rules edition released as an "Expert" set. These two editions would provide separate entry points to the game; one for new players or players that want a more classic D&D game and another entry point for experienced gamers that want more options and all the other things they have come to expect from previous editions.

Also, they must release several rules modules covering the main elements of the game (i.e., classes, races, combat, magic, monsters, etc.) upon launch to further expand the game for those that still need more complexity in a particular element of the game.


Here's a mockup of the Basic Set I created.



(CLICK HERE TO VIEW LARGER IMAGE)
  

Basic Set

This boxed set contains a simple, "bare bones" edition of the game; the core rules. It's for those that want a rules-light edition of the game that is extremely modifiable or for new players that get intimidated easily by too many rules and/or options. The Basic Set contains everything needed to play with all the "classic" D&D races (i.e., Human, Dwarf, Elf, and Halfling) and classes (i.e., Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard) all the way up to maximum level (i.e., 20th Level).

The Basic boxed set contains:

Quick Start Rules
A "choose your own way" adventure intended as an intro to RPGs and basic D&D terms.

Player's Handbook
(Softcover, 125 pages)
Features rules for playing the classic D&D races and classes all the way up to 20th level.

Dungeon Master's Guide

(Softcover, 125 pages)
Includes the basic rules for dungeon masters.

Monster Manual
(Softcover, 100 pages)
Includes all the classic iconic monsters from D&D. 

Introductory Adventure
(Keep on the Borderlands)
An introductory adventure for beginning players and DMs.

Also includes: 

Character Sheets
Reference Sheets
Set of Dice


Expert Set

A set of hardbound rules that contains the core rules plus expanded races and classes, more spells and a large selection of optional rules modules — that is, pretty much everything that experienced players have come to expect. Each expert edition manual may be purchased separately, or in a boxed set. The Expert set includes:

Expert PHB (Hardcover, 225 pages. $35 Includes core rules plus 10 playable races, 10 character classes, expanded selection of spells and rules modules for players.)
Expert DMG (Hardcover, 250 pages. $35 Includes core rules plus expanded rules modules for DMs.)
Expert MM (Hardcover, 225 pages. $35 Includes an expanded list of monsters and creatures to challenge characters)


Expansions

These expansion rules modules can be used with both the Basic and Expert sets. Each expansion covers one specific aspect of the game, such as character creation, combat, spells, monsters, etc.) 

Hall of Heroes (Hardcover, 225 pages. $35 Includes a vast selection of playable character races and classes, new and old all in one book)
Combat and Tactics (Hardcover, 225 pages. $35 Includes dozens of new and old optional rules for combat all in one book)
Creature Compendium (Hardcover, 350 pages.$35 Includes hundreds of monsters, new and old all in one book)
The Grimoire (Hardcover, 225 pages. $35 Includes hundreds of new and old spells all in one book)





A Million Hit Points of Light: Shedding Light on Damage

A Million Hit Points of Light: Shedding Light on Damage and Hit Points

In my personal campaigns, I use the following system for damage and dying. It's a slight modification of the long-standing principles etsablished by the D&D game, only with a new definition of what 0 or less hit points means. I've been using it for years because it works really well. However, I've made some adjustments to take advantage of the D&D Next rules. I've decided to present the first part in a Q&A format for better clarity. So let's begin...

What are hit points?
The premise is very simple, but often misunderstood; hit points are an abstraction that represent the character's ability to avoid serious damage, not necessarily their ability to take serious damage. This is a very important distinction. They represent a combination of skillful maneuvering, toughness, stamina and luck. Some targets have more hit points because they are physically tougher and are harder to injure...others have more because they are experienced combatants and have learned how to turn near fatal blows into mere scratches by skillful maneuvering...and then others are just plain lucky. Once a character runs out of hit points they become vulnerable to serious life-threatening injuries.

So what exactly does it mean to "hit" with a successful attack roll, then?
It means that through your own skill and ability you may have wounded your target if the target lacks the hit points to avoid the full brunt of the attack. That's an important thing to keep in mind; a successful "hit" does not necessarily mean you physically damaged your target. It just means that your attack was well placed and forced the target to exert themselves in such a way as to leave them vulnerable to further attacks. For example, instead of severing the target's arm, the attack merely grazes them leaving a minor cut.

But the attack did 25 points of damage! Why did it only "graze" the target?
Because the target has more than 25 hit points. Your attack forced them to exert a lot of energy to avoid the attack, but because of their combat skill, toughness, stamina and luck, they managed to avoid being seriously injured. However, because of this attack, they may not have the reserves to avoid your next attack. Perhaps you knocked them off balance or the attack left them so fatigued they lack the stamina to evade another attack. It's the DM's call on how they want to narrate the exact reason the blow didn't kill or wound the target.

Yeah, but what about "touch" attacks that rely on physical contact?
Making physical contact with a target is a lot different than striking them, so these types of attacks are the exception. If a touch attack succeeds, the attacker manages to make contact with their target.

If hit points and weapon damage don't always represent actual damage to the target, then what does it represent?
Think of the damage from an attack as more like a "threat level" rather than actual physical damage that transfers directly to the target's body. That is, the more damage an attack does, the harder it is to avoid serious injury. For example, an attack that causes 14 points of damage is more likely to wound the target than 3 points of damage (depending on how many hit points the target has left). The higher the damage, the greater the chance is that the target will become seriously injured. So, an attack that does 34 points of damage could be thought of as a "threat level of 34." If the target doesn't have the hit points to negate that threat, they become seriously injured.

Ok, but shouldn't armor reduce the amount of damage delivered from an attack?
It does reduce damage; by making it harder for an attack to cause serious injury. A successful hit against an armored target suggests that the attack may have circumvented the target's armor by striking in a vulnerable area.

What about poison and other types of non-combat damage?
Hit point loss from non-physical forms of damage represents the character spitting the poison out just in time before it takes full strength or perhaps the poison just wasn't strong enough to affect them drastically, but still weakens them. Again, it's the DMs call on how to narrate the reasons why the character avoids serious harm from the damage.

If hit points don't don't represent actual damage then how does that make sense with spells like Cure Serious Wounds and other forms of healing like healer kits with bandages?
Hit points do represent some physical damage, just not serious physical damage. Healing magic and other forms of healing still affect these minor wounds just as well as more serious wounds. For example, bandaging up minor cuts and abrasions helps the character rejuvenate and relieve the pain and/or fatigue of hit point loss. The key thing to remember is that it's an abstraction that allows the DM freedom to interpret and narrate it as they see fit.

What if my attack reduces the target to 0 or less hit points?
If a player is reduced to 0 or less hit points they are wounded. If a monster or NPC is reduce to 0 or less hit points they are killed.

Why are monsters killed immediately and not players?
Because unless the monsters are crucial to the story, it makes combat resolution much faster. It is assumed that players immediately execute a coup de grace on wounded monsters as a finishing move.

What if a character is wounded by poison or other types of non-physical damage?
If a character becomes wounded from non-combat damage they still receive the effects of being wounded, regardless if they show any physical signs of injury (i.e., internal injuries are still considered injuries).

Ok. I get it...but what happens once a character is wounded?
See below.
 

Damage and Dying

Once a character is reduced to 0 or less hit points, they start taking real damage. In other words, their reserves have run out and they can no longer avoid taking serious damage.

  1. Characters are fully operational as long as they have 1 hit point or more. They may have minor cuts, bruises, and superficial wounds, but they are are not impaired significantly. 
  2. Once they reach 0 or less hit points, they become Wounded (see below).That is, they have sustained a wound that impairs their ability to perform actions.
  3. If they reach a negative amount of hit points equal or greater than their Constitution score, they are Incapacitated. This means they are in critical condition and could possibly die.
  4. Characters will die if their hit points reach a negative amount greater than their Constitution score, plus their current level.

Unharmed: 1 hp or more
Wounded: 0 hp or less
Incapacitated: -(Constitution) to -(Constitution+Level)
Dead: Less than -(Constitution +Level)

Wounded
When the character reaches 0 or less hit points they become wounded. Wounded characters receive disadvantage on all attacks and saving throws until they heal back up to 1 hit point or more. This allows for a transitory stage between healthy and dying, without having to mess around with impairment rules while the character still has hit points left.

Incapacitated
Characters begin dying when they reach a negative amount of hit points equal to their Constitution score. At which point, they must make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw on each of their following turns (the disadvantage from being wounded does not apply for these saving throws).

If successful, the character remains dying, but their condition does not worsen.

If the saving throw fails, another DC 10 Constitution saving throw must be made. If that one fails, the character succumbs to their wounds and dies. If successful, the character stabilizes and is no longer dying.

Finally, if a dying character receives first aid or healing at any point, they immediately stabilize.

Dead
Characters will die if they reach a negative amount of hit points equal to their Constitution, plus their current level. Thus, if an 8th level character with a Constitution score of 12 is down to 4 hit points then takes 24 points of damage (reducing their hit points to -20) the attack kills them outright.

I dare you play a character with low Charisma in one of my campaigns...you'd be enjoying crow for saying such a falsehood.

Could it be you know what you're doing?

I've never seen an adventure path where high or low CHA didn't mean awful monologue followed by murdering everything in a dungeon.  That's why CHA didn't really matter until the 00's and then only if it was a prime.
Could it be you know what you're doing?

Ok. I see your point. Tongue Out I get defensive when people refer to Charisma as a "dump" stat just because it doesn't have a lot of mechanical applications compared to other stats. In my opinion, Charisma is one of the more important stats in the game, especially if your character has any intention of interacting with others.
D&D Next - Basic and Expert Editions

I firmly believe that there should be two editions of the game; the core rules released as a "Basic" set and a more complicated expanded rules edition released as an "Expert" set. These two editions would provide separate entry points to the game; one for new players or players that want a more classic D&D game and another entry point for experienced gamers that want more options and all the other things they have come to expect from previous editions.

Also, they must release several rules modules covering the main elements of the game (i.e., classes, races, combat, magic, monsters, etc.) upon launch to further expand the game for those that still need more complexity in a particular element of the game.


Here's a mockup of the Basic Set I created.



(CLICK HERE TO VIEW LARGER IMAGE)
  

Basic Set

This boxed set contains a simple, "bare bones" edition of the game; the core rules. It's for those that want a rules-light edition of the game that is extremely modifiable or for new players that get intimidated easily by too many rules and/or options. The Basic Set contains everything needed to play with all the "classic" D&D races (i.e., Human, Dwarf, Elf, and Halfling) and classes (i.e., Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard) all the way up to maximum level (i.e., 20th Level).

The Basic boxed set contains:

Quick Start Rules
A "choose your own way" adventure intended as an intro to RPGs and basic D&D terms.

Player's Handbook
(Softcover, 125 pages)
Features rules for playing the classic D&D races and classes all the way up to 20th level.

Dungeon Master's Guide

(Softcover, 125 pages)
Includes the basic rules for dungeon masters.

Monster Manual
(Softcover, 100 pages)
Includes all the classic iconic monsters from D&D. 

Introductory Adventure
(Keep on the Borderlands)
An introductory adventure for beginning players and DMs.

Also includes: 

Character Sheets
Reference Sheets
Set of Dice


Expert Set

A set of hardbound rules that contains the core rules plus expanded races and classes, more spells and a large selection of optional rules modules — that is, pretty much everything that experienced players have come to expect. Each expert edition manual may be purchased separately, or in a boxed set. The Expert set includes:

Expert PHB (Hardcover, 225 pages. $35 Includes core rules plus 10 playable races, 10 character classes, expanded selection of spells and rules modules for players.)
Expert DMG (Hardcover, 250 pages. $35 Includes core rules plus expanded rules modules for DMs.)
Expert MM (Hardcover, 225 pages. $35 Includes an expanded list of monsters and creatures to challenge characters)


Expansions

These expansion rules modules can be used with both the Basic and Expert sets. Each expansion covers one specific aspect of the game, such as character creation, combat, spells, monsters, etc.) 

Hall of Heroes (Hardcover, 225 pages. $35 Includes a vast selection of playable character races and classes, new and old all in one book)
Combat and Tactics (Hardcover, 225 pages. $35 Includes dozens of new and old optional rules for combat all in one book)
Creature Compendium (Hardcover, 350 pages.$35 Includes hundreds of monsters, new and old all in one book)
The Grimoire (Hardcover, 225 pages. $35 Includes hundreds of new and old spells all in one book)





A Million Hit Points of Light: Shedding Light on Damage

A Million Hit Points of Light: Shedding Light on Damage and Hit Points

In my personal campaigns, I use the following system for damage and dying. It's a slight modification of the long-standing principles etsablished by the D&D game, only with a new definition of what 0 or less hit points means. I've been using it for years because it works really well. However, I've made some adjustments to take advantage of the D&D Next rules. I've decided to present the first part in a Q&A format for better clarity. So let's begin...

What are hit points?
The premise is very simple, but often misunderstood; hit points are an abstraction that represent the character's ability to avoid serious damage, not necessarily their ability to take serious damage. This is a very important distinction. They represent a combination of skillful maneuvering, toughness, stamina and luck. Some targets have more hit points because they are physically tougher and are harder to injure...others have more because they are experienced combatants and have learned how to turn near fatal blows into mere scratches by skillful maneuvering...and then others are just plain lucky. Once a character runs out of hit points they become vulnerable to serious life-threatening injuries.

So what exactly does it mean to "hit" with a successful attack roll, then?
It means that through your own skill and ability you may have wounded your target if the target lacks the hit points to avoid the full brunt of the attack. That's an important thing to keep in mind; a successful "hit" does not necessarily mean you physically damaged your target. It just means that your attack was well placed and forced the target to exert themselves in such a way as to leave them vulnerable to further attacks. For example, instead of severing the target's arm, the attack merely grazes them leaving a minor cut.

But the attack did 25 points of damage! Why did it only "graze" the target?
Because the target has more than 25 hit points. Your attack forced them to exert a lot of energy to avoid the attack, but because of their combat skill, toughness, stamina and luck, they managed to avoid being seriously injured. However, because of this attack, they may not have the reserves to avoid your next attack. Perhaps you knocked them off balance or the attack left them so fatigued they lack the stamina to evade another attack. It's the DM's call on how they want to narrate the exact reason the blow didn't kill or wound the target.

Yeah, but what about "touch" attacks that rely on physical contact?
Making physical contact with a target is a lot different than striking them, so these types of attacks are the exception. If a touch attack succeeds, the attacker manages to make contact with their target.

If hit points and weapon damage don't always represent actual damage to the target, then what does it represent?
Think of the damage from an attack as more like a "threat level" rather than actual physical damage that transfers directly to the target's body. That is, the more damage an attack does, the harder it is to avoid serious injury. For example, an attack that causes 14 points of damage is more likely to wound the target than 3 points of damage (depending on how many hit points the target has left). The higher the damage, the greater the chance is that the target will become seriously injured. So, an attack that does 34 points of damage could be thought of as a "threat level of 34." If the target doesn't have the hit points to negate that threat, they become seriously injured.

Ok, but shouldn't armor reduce the amount of damage delivered from an attack?
It does reduce damage; by making it harder for an attack to cause serious injury. A successful hit against an armored target suggests that the attack may have circumvented the target's armor by striking in a vulnerable area.

What about poison and other types of non-combat damage?
Hit point loss from non-physical forms of damage represents the character spitting the poison out just in time before it takes full strength or perhaps the poison just wasn't strong enough to affect them drastically, but still weakens them. Again, it's the DMs call on how to narrate the reasons why the character avoids serious harm from the damage.

If hit points don't don't represent actual damage then how does that make sense with spells like Cure Serious Wounds and other forms of healing like healer kits with bandages?
Hit points do represent some physical damage, just not serious physical damage. Healing magic and other forms of healing still affect these minor wounds just as well as more serious wounds. For example, bandaging up minor cuts and abrasions helps the character rejuvenate and relieve the pain and/or fatigue of hit point loss. The key thing to remember is that it's an abstraction that allows the DM freedom to interpret and narrate it as they see fit.

What if my attack reduces the target to 0 or less hit points?
If a player is reduced to 0 or less hit points they are wounded. If a monster or NPC is reduce to 0 or less hit points they are killed.

Why are monsters killed immediately and not players?
Because unless the monsters are crucial to the story, it makes combat resolution much faster. It is assumed that players immediately execute a coup de grace on wounded monsters as a finishing move.

What if a character is wounded by poison or other types of non-physical damage?
If a character becomes wounded from non-combat damage they still receive the effects of being wounded, regardless if they show any physical signs of injury (i.e., internal injuries are still considered injuries).

Ok. I get it...but what happens once a character is wounded?
See below.
 

Damage and Dying

Once a character is reduced to 0 or less hit points, they start taking real damage. In other words, their reserves have run out and they can no longer avoid taking serious damage.

  1. Characters are fully operational as long as they have 1 hit point or more. They may have minor cuts, bruises, and superficial wounds, but they are are not impaired significantly. 
  2. Once they reach 0 or less hit points, they become Wounded (see below).That is, they have sustained a wound that impairs their ability to perform actions.
  3. If they reach a negative amount of hit points equal or greater than their Constitution score, they are Incapacitated. This means they are in critical condition and could possibly die.
  4. Characters will die if their hit points reach a negative amount greater than their Constitution score, plus their current level.

Unharmed: 1 hp or more
Wounded: 0 hp or less
Incapacitated: -(Constitution) to -(Constitution+Level)
Dead: Less than -(Constitution +Level)

Wounded
When the character reaches 0 or less hit points they become wounded. Wounded characters receive disadvantage on all attacks and saving throws until they heal back up to 1 hit point or more. This allows for a transitory stage between healthy and dying, without having to mess around with impairment rules while the character still has hit points left.

Incapacitated
Characters begin dying when they reach a negative amount of hit points equal to their Constitution score. At which point, they must make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw on each of their following turns (the disadvantage from being wounded does not apply for these saving throws).

If successful, the character remains dying, but their condition does not worsen.

If the saving throw fails, another DC 10 Constitution saving throw must be made. If that one fails, the character succumbs to their wounds and dies. If successful, the character stabilizes and is no longer dying.

Finally, if a dying character receives first aid or healing at any point, they immediately stabilize.

Dead
Characters will die if they reach a negative amount of hit points equal to their Constitution, plus their current level. Thus, if an 8th level character with a Constitution score of 12 is down to 4 hit points then takes 24 points of damage (reducing their hit points to -20) the attack kills them outright.

A system that allows 3 18's and 3 6's is a bit unbalanced.  This is why most point buys limit your negatives and make higher scores even higher cost.

I think 4e point buy costs are fine. But the 4e method of spending the points is confusing, is it 20pt with 10 start, or 22 pt with one 8 out of 10's, DDI does it both ways

Here is how I roll.

32pt buy using the 4e costs.

Roll a marked d6, and 2d6.    

The marked d6 selects your ability (you can skip this if you want ordered or selected ability), which you will assign an ability of 2d6+8, spending your point buy budget starting with 8.   Repeat until all assigned.   Cap your last stats at your budget if your roll overspent.

2d6+8 is 10:15:20  just reroll if DM disallows a pre-race 20 but it is rare. I just hate using a 2d4+10, and a 2d6+6 is too low for the average high stat since 4e is balanced for a 16 high stat (don't know what 5e balance is).  The point buy higher ability cost penalty means the higher average spends your budget so even if you roll high on the other stats, you don't get to buy them.   I have rolled all 13's with this method!

If you hate your max, then ask the DM to buy back one or two 10's  to dump to 8.   If you used random selection ask the DM to swap a bad high with a low if it just will not work, but search the manuals as classes and races can cover most any two high stats. You don't get perfect characters nor gimped characters with this method, but because it is budgeted point buy they are balanced.
They need to come up with something for point buy, and soon. Rolling for stats is a killer for me.
They need to come up with something for point buy, and soon. Rolling for stats is a killer for me.


I'm positive the end-result will have a point-buy system.  If you want to use one now, you can always either use the one presented in the 4e books or in the 3e srd.
There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Point buy just seems so GURPSish to me.
Point buy just seems so GURPSish to me.


Have you considered mixing it up a bit?  You could inject randomness into the point buy by replacing the set number of points with an amount determind randomly.  That prevents horribly low stats, like all 3's, but keeps the randomness some people enjoy.
There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

I just want 100% control over character creation. It is my character, afterall. I'll save the random for gameplay. Random in creation can screw a character for the campaign.
Did you get 100% control of your own character.  As in who you are now?  Rolling a character is the same thing, only in game terms instead of real life.  You roll the character and take the class it gives you.  Or you trade off a couple of the attribute scores and you play the character you want to play, only with the scores you rolled.  It gives your character... well... character.
Did you get 100% control of your own character.  As in who you are now?  Rolling a character is the same thing, only in game terms instead of real life.  You roll the character and take the class it gives you.  Or you trade off a couple of the attribute scores and you play the character you want to play, only with the scores you rolled.  It gives your character... well... character.


The "it simulates reality" argument doesn't really hold water.  D&D is a game.  Plenty of people play it for escapism, not to be screwed by a different version of reality.
There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Did you get 100% control of your own character.  As in who you are now?  Rolling a character is the same thing, only in game terms instead of real life.  You roll the character and take the class it gives you.  Or you trade off a couple of the attribute scores and you play the character you want to play, only with the scores you rolled.  It gives your character... well... character.


The "it simulates reality" argument doesn't really hold water.  D&D is a game.  Plenty of people play it for escapism, not to be screwed by a different version of reality.



This. I play to escape reality. It is only a game. Random generation gives me a character I won't have interest in or attachment to. I need to have complete control to create the character I have in mind. If the dice tell me I can't have that character, then I will have no attachment to it.


I find it strange that your Halfling can start with the Strength of a Hill Giant.
I find it strange that your Halfling can start with the Strength of a Hill Giant.


So he's the Bruce Lee or Charles Atlas of Halflings.  How often do the strongest examples ever for that race really come around anyway?
There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

I say roll, or stat array, whichever is highest.
Seems kind of munchkinish, there.  I want to play x, but I don't have the attributes to play it.  Instead of finding something else to play, I trash this one until I get what I want.  Rolling attributes forces you to play the game.  Choosing your attributes forces the DM to have to limit you.  The limitations are already built into it when you roll for the attributes.  One is a headache for the DM.  The other is not.

Of course, I'm old enough to remember when rolling 3d6 and taking what you got was how you played the game.  You built your character from there, choosing the class the dice gave you.  It was fun and challenging.
Seems kind of munchkinish, there.


You're going to have to explain how being able to play what you think is fun or interesting or exciting is munchkinish for anyone to take that seriously.
I want to play x, but I don't have the attributes to play it.  Instead of finding something else to play, I trash this one until I get what I want.


But whose fault is that?  Is that the fault of the player?  No.  Is it the fault of the DM?  No.  It's the fault of the system for not providing a means for people to play what they want to play.
Rolling attributes forces you to play the game.  Choosing your attributes forces the DM to have to limit you.  The limitations are already built into it when you roll for the attributes.


Rolling attributes doesn't force you to play the game.  Rolling attributes isn't even part of playing the game.  It's prep-work.  It's the crap you have to do before you can play.  All rolling attributes does is limit the pool of options you can effectively choose from.  Some people enjoy that because it forces them to explore other classes.  Others prefer to begin with a concept.  Both are equally valid preferences, which is why both should be supported.
One is a headache for the DM.  The other is not.


Neither is a headache for the DM.  If you're rolling your stats, you have the potential (but probably not the likelyhood) to wind up in the class you wanted anyway.  So the DM has to be prepared to accept the character of that class (or deny the use of that class) no matter what method of generation is used.
There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

I am very glad to hear that they are going back to 1st Ed Giant Str scores (gives ability scores more identity), but that means a 1st level Halfling Fighter can be as strong as a Hill Giant.
A system that allows 3 18's and 3 6's is a bit unbalanced.  This is why most point buys limit your negatives and make higher scores even higher cost.


Well, that was the maximum munchkin you could go, so I put it in, not that I wouldn't make that player catch hell in game for doing it...
Point buy just seems so GURPSish to me.


And that's a good thing.
I just want 100% control over character creation. It is my character, afterall. I'll save the random for gameplay. Random in creation can screw a character for the campaign.


+1 to this
The "it simulates reality" argument doesn't really hold water.  D&D is a game.


and +1 to this
Sorry.  I'm just partial to rolling for attributes.  Point buy systems remind me too much of GURPS.  I don't dislike GURPS, but if I wanted to play that system, I would play it.  People are too used to playing roleplaying games like computer games.  I personally loath that.
Sorry.  I'm just partial to rolling for attributes.  Point buy systems remind me too much of GURPS.  I don't dislike GURPS, but if I wanted to play that system, I would play it.  People are too used to playing roleplaying games like computer games.  I personally loath that.


I'm sorry but there is no RPGs to computer games corollary here, because this isn't even about playing the game.  It's about building the character.  This all happens before play.  Comparing this to play is like saying that grocery shopping counts as cooking dinner.

I'd also like to point out that several computer games use random attribute generation.  As someone who played both the Wizardry and Bard's Tale Computer games, I know for a fact that they both used random generation before allowing you to pick your classes.  So the stigmatic comparison to computer gaming can be accurately leveled at both forms of attribute generation.
There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Yet it is part of playing the game.  Its the most important part of playing the game.  Its when you determine how you're going to play the game.  How you play this part of the game determines how you play all of the rest of the game.  Its not JUST making a character.  Its character creation.  Its kind of very important.  And I don't care if you believe it or not, it is playing the game.  You're using the rules, so you're playing the game.

Of course, I'm old enough to remember when rolling 3d6 and taking what you got was how you played the game.  You built your character from there, choosing the class the dice gave you.  It was fun and challenging.



It would be funner if the game did not assume you were going to spend months and months, even years playing the same character. For a one off or short lived game, sure, one where you advance quickly and just have some simple fun. But it sucked being stuck with a terrible character that you disliked for sessions upon sessions (or watching them die repeatedly, meaning progress was minimal). That sort of brings up another issue old editions had, but that's for another thread.

As for challenging? If it's supposed to be a challenge, why is it random whether or not you'll HAVE a "challenge"? Why doesn't EVERYONE have to be "challenged"? Or why isn't it the PLAYER who decides if they want to be especially "challenged"? Like, what if I wanted the "challenege" of a low-stat character, but I rolled 3 18s and nothing else below 13? Why would we make the game randomly determine what we feel like doing?
EVERY DAY IS HORRIBLE POST DAY ON THE D&D FORUMS. Everything makes me ANGRY (ESPECIALLY you, reader)
Yet it is part of playing the game.  Its the most important part of playing the game.  Its when you determine how you're going to play the game.  How you play this part of the game determines how you play all of the rest of the game.  Its not JUST making a character.  Its character creation.  Its kind of very important.  And I don't care if you believe it or not, it is playing the game.  You're using the rules, so you're playing the game.


I'm sorry but the most important part of the game is the actually having fun part.  That's what makes it a game and not a chore.
There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Why would we make the game randomly determine what we feel like doing?



Because its a game.
Howdy folks,

Whether or not you roll attributes, use point-buy, or use another method to determine attributes is a play style decision and preference.  A preference, just like an opinion, cannot be proven right or wrong.  Attempting to invalidate another's playstyle preference, however, is something we frown on.

Let's move on from this particular tangent.

Thanks.    

All around helpful simian

Yet it is part of playing the game.  Its the most important part of playing the game.  Its when you determine how you're going to play the game.  How you play this part of the game determines how you play all of the rest of the game.  Its not JUST making a character.  Its character creation.  Its kind of very important.  And I don't care if you believe it or not, it is playing the game.  You're using the rules, so you're playing the game.


I'm sorry but the most important part of the game is the actually having fun part.  That's what makes it a game and not a chore.



Fine.  If its more fun for you to determine through point buy that your character is ALWAYS going to have 18's in the prime attributes, then go right ahead.  Just remember that every other charcter is going to be that way, and the game won't be much of a challenge.  If I'm the DM, I'm throwing the toughest monsters I can at you because you deserve it.  That's all.

Rolling attributes gives you different kinds of characters, that you have to learn to play differently from the min/maxed character.  You actually have to think about what you're doing, instead of having it all handed to you on a silver platter.