Storming-out with Glimpse the Unthinkable

14 posts / 0 new
Last post
Modern Storm Variant
Glimpse the Unthinkable

So, the reason you play Glimpse the Unthinkable is not to have an alternate milling win condition... It essentially acts as a cheap tutor. It puts Grapeshots, Empty the Warrens, Past in Flames and more all in your yard for you. I think Gifts Ungiven is the closest contender and may end up switching out Glimpse for a Gifts package. But for now, am enjoying my results of milling myself. I'm only running three right now because it has deminishing returns.

Also, now that we have black, the addition of Duress is very important. The more I think about it, I think it is more important than Glimpse. It not only nabs that nasty counterspell waiting to ruin my day, but it clears the path for a sneaky Empty the Warrens. Duress is way more relevant than a card like Spell Pierce. You can cast it BEFORE the turn you go off! Saving mana to counterspell when we are Storming-out is NOT easy to do and could mean waiting more turns. Modern Storm decks are light on mana, it's just the truth. When this deck Storms-out it usually needs every mana it can get to make it work.

Right now I'm tweaking my cantrips... I took out Gitaxian Probe because I wasn't like it's results.  Drawing one card, blind, is meh. The life loss is relevant, and because I run Duress, looking at their hand is not. Manamorphose is actually a key player, it can fix my mana and is baller when storming out. I'm only running three because I can get it in my yard with Glimpse and having them in my hand isn't always good. Peer Through Depths can't find me a land, but gets the slots for now because it's my best option at digging. Grapeshot acts as good removal and a finisher. 

My landbase tries to take as little damage as possible, it still needs work. My sideboard is always in shambles... ISO deck help.

ps. Is Lotus Bloom playable in Modern Storm lists?

The Setup

4 Duress
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Peer Through Depths
3 Manamorphose
3 Glimpse the Unthinkable
The Finish
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
3 Past in Flames
4 Grapeshot
2 Empty the Warrens
Land
2 Island
2 Mountain
1 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
1 Underground River
1 Sulfurous Springs
4 Halimar Depths
4 Scalding Tarn
Sideboard
4 Echoing Truth
4 Lightning Bolt
???
For a veteran storm player, it doesn't look like a veteran storm list. Glimpse does almost nothing and could easily just be another two Peer through Depths, and two ETW.
Photobucket
@ zpikdum

Interesting opinion though I would disagree that Glimpse does "nothing"... The question is, is it my best option. It essentially acts as a tutor, putting grapeshots, ETWs and PIFs in my yard for when I storm-out... Right? I could consider running three copies instead of four though, because casting multiple of them has deminishing returns. Thanks!
You MUST replace the 4 glimpse with 4 Gitaxian Probe - free storm + card draw is waaay better than glimpses TRUST me The 2 life loss from the probe is absolutely irrelevant when you go off so yeah that and manamorphose are the building blocks of the modern storm. Also play 4 manamorphose and add some remands instead of duress. I've had games when i go off and have loads of mana and can't kill with grapeshot. Remand it back to my hand with storm copies on the stack draw a card and then replay grapeshot. That usually gets the job done with the 'thinnest' storms
I agree with zpikdM and Svetlio.  Glimpse is terrible here.  You wreck your amazing mana base to protect it, ditch great protection (Spell Pierce would just be better than Duress), cut out some dig, slim down mana conversion (Manamorphose is pretty important when you're comboing to get blue mana) and you lose free storm count.
I agree with zpikdM and Svetlio.  Glimpse is terrible here.  You wreck your amazing mana base to protect it, ditch great protection (Spell Pierce would just be better than Duress), cut out some dig, slim down mana conversion (Manamorphose is pretty important when you're comboing to get blue mana) and you lose free storm count.



Can you elaborate on why Glimpse is "terrible". I don't understand your points (theoretically and grammatically).

Also, Saving a mana for a Spell Pierce in general doesnt work well because we are always cantriping on our turns, thus it is not beneficial to save untapped blue mana for us. And when we Storm-out, having to save one extra mana can mean having to wait an extra turn. And late game they can just pay the 2. Duress gets the job done when I need it to be done.
You MUST replace the 4 glimpse with 4 Gitaxian Probe - free storm + card draw is waaay better than glimpses TRUST me The 2 life loss from the probe is absolutely irrelevant when you go off so yeah that and manamorphose are the building blocks of the modern storm. Also play 4 manamorphose and add some remands instead of duress. I've had games when i go off and have loads of mana and can't kill with grapeshot. Remand it back to my hand with storm copies on the stack draw a card and then replay grapeshot. That usually gets the job done with the 'thinnest' storms

When you Storm out in a Modern PIF deck, you only need 7 mana (6 if PIF is in your hand). So the goal is to be able to win by the time you reach 7 mana (which on a good game is turn 3-4). If you had "loads" of extra mana, that would mean your storming out way late. Maybe you should try running Glimpse in your version so you don't have to sit on so much mana for so long. Also, Remanding your Grapeshots is cute and all, but it is such a specific scenario that it isn't a defining reason to run Remand.
Can you elaborate on why Glimpse is "terrible". I don't understand your points (theoretically and grammatically).

Also, Saving a mana for a Spell Pierce in general doesnt work well because we are always cantriping on our turns, thus it is not beneficial to save untapped blue mana for us. And when we Storm-out, having to save one extra mana can mean having to wait an extra turn. And late game they can just pay the 2. Duress gets the job done when I need it to be done.



Then I suggest you take more English classes.  I laid out why pretty throughly there.  Oh well, here's a a quick recap:

1.) Your manabase becomes terrible to support the black casting cost.
2.) You trade great pieces of protection for your combo (Spell Pierce or Dispel) for bad protection (Duress)
3.) You cut some cantrips/library manipulation for Glimpses, and library manipulation is extremely important to the combo
4.) You lose the flexibility of Manamorphose by running fewer copies, which makes it difficult to cantrip while you're comboing
5.) You lose the ability to increase your storm count for free (no Gitaxian Probe)

As for arguing against Spell Pierce, that's a pretty bad argument.  The way to attack a storm deck isn't to counter the rituals, you attack the recursion and the draw cards (PiF especially).  So having the mana for Spell Pierce is going to be very common.  Really, you need a suite of protection spells including Dispel, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare and Remand.

Duress doesn't get the job done for a number of reasons.  First, you actually have to use it before you combo.  The fact that it's a sorcery means that if you want to use it as protection, you have to use it before casting rituals.  Second, there are cards that aren't sorceries or instants you care about (which is why you use the protection suite).  Third, to use it, you have to deprive yourself of one of your more critical colors.  You must either fetch a non-blue or non-red land or use a Manamorphose to make black instead of blue.

As for Remanding your Grapeshot, it's not just "cute".  It's an extremely viable way to win the game.  Unlike Legacy, where you have Tendrils of Agony and infinite loops to generate storm, getting to 15-20 spells in a single turn can be very difficult in Modern.  As such, Remanding your Grapeshot that spawned 6-8 copies so that you can get another 8-10 copies happens quite often.  This is especially true against non-blue decks that aren't running instant speed distruption.

@MadAdmiral

Much better recap of your points. I fully understand you now.

As far as the Spell Pierce argument: You made claim that Duress doesn't get the job done, but to me, your points didn't validate it. let me elaborate.

First, you said having the mana for a spell pierce is going to be common. Huh? We are playing Modern Storm... Where every bit of mana is extremely curcial. If we had access to more mana, Storming out would be easier. Saving mana for a spell pierce or any counterspell (besides pact) makes us slower. 

Second, you said Duress is not good because you have to cast it before you Storm-out... How is that a bad thing? Casting a Duress before we storm-out gives us vital information and the ability to yoink a disruption spell. This fact allows us to storm-out safely, instead of blindly saving 1 extra mana for a couterspell they may or may not have, or they may have multiple of... So I mean casting Duress before we storm-out I think is a good thing.

Next, you said there are other threats besides instants and sorceries that Duress can't hit. Well to be frank, half of your "disruptoin suite" you mentioned cannot hit creatures. Spell Snare could be good, but still won't counter everything. The remand is good, but really only for "buying us time" and yes I agree, casting multiple Grapeshots. It does this well, but remand is quite far-fetched if you think it is going to save you from disruption when your storming out. Again having excess mana while we storm-out just is not a luxury that we have.

Also, your Remand arguement still is'nt too strong. Mainly because of PIF. The whole point of PIF is so we can cast our spells multiple times. Usually only two grapeshots are needed to kill your opponent. So PIF is usually all we need to get the job done. If they are above 20 life then I'd say remanding your grapeshot would be relevant. Other than that, its mana intensive.

I think the good points you made were these:

1. To add more mana morphose to my list. The more I think about it, the more I agree. This card will fix my black problem without having to take excessive damage from my lands. And is just baller when your storming out.

2. Take out Glimpse and add more cantrip. I may consider this to be honest. The thing is, I think glimpse is good because it can set me up for the perfect storm, but the real reason I went black, was for Duress. I really do think that card speeds up Modern Storm. I am adiment about the fact that saving an extra mana before you storm-out for a Spell Pierce or something DOES SLOW YOU DOWN. I may cut glimpse and go back to Gifts Ungiven, because that card is baller.

In sum, I've played Storm a bunch, I'm guessing you have as well, and I have tried using Dispel and Spell Pierce and I always hate saving that extra mana when 7 is already so hard to get. I makes me feel slower because not only do I have to wait another turn to get that extra land, My opponent gets to draw more cards and gets more oppertunities to disrupt me. I'll work on a new list, maybe cut the glimpse and add in remand/gifts/manamorphose. and I'll post it up soon.
My point about Spell Pierce is that when you need to have protection, you will have extra mana.  I've yet to see a Modern Storm deck played by an experienced player finish comboing without a ton of extra mana in their pool.

The reason why having to play Duress before you combo out is bad is because you have to spend the mana up front.  If you Duress them and see 2x Spell Pierce, you only get to take one and since you paid the mana upfront to cast Duress, you have a lower chance of being able to combo off because you don't have a way to get going through a Pierce.  If the opponent is competent, they won't try to attack the rituals because they're more dispensible to the Storm game plan.  So you get your extra mana, which can then be used to pay for the Pierces (yours and theirs).

As for getting the information, if you used Gitaxian Probe, you get the same information, free Storm if you can go off that turn and/or a replacement card if you can't.

The important cards Duress can't hit are Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Ethersworn Canonist and some of the new RTR creatures.  Guess what will hit most of them:  Spell Snare.  Remand is good because although they get their spell back, you get to draw a card so it helps you to continue to combo.  I don't think you need to run 4-ofs of any of them, as they don't hit all the important cards by themselves.  That's why the mixture is important.  I would run at least 3 total counters, but probably more like 5.

The problem with relying on PiF is that there is mainboard graveyard hate in some of the top decks (namely Relic of Progenitus).  Not only that, but PiF isn't cheap and you can rarely count on being able to play it through hate or be able to flash it back if it didn't resolve the first time.  Relying on PiF isn't a great idea for these reasons.  It's much better to rely on getting there without it, but having it as an "oops, I win" button.

On your PS, which I didn't see until now, Lotus Bloom is playable, but only if you're playing Eggs (Second Sunrise, Faith's Reward combo).
Cool, I'll take your points into consideration. I still do not think there is a definate line though. And you still don't seem to be understanding my point with Duress. You cast it the turn BEFORE you go off, "clearning the way" for your next turn combo. Allowing for essentially a faster storm. But i'll do some testing.
Why cast it the turn before you go off?  That puts you down one potential Storm count, leaves with no idea if they drew their hate and gives them a turn to dig/play said hate.  Trading Duress (and the black) for counters and Gitaxian Probe gives you the exact same knowledge and protection.

If you absolutely must play black and hand disruption, at least play Thoughtseize.  The life loss doesn't matter and it at least hits everything you need to get rid of...
Why cast it the turn before you go off?  That puts you down one potential Storm count, leaves with no idea if they drew their hate and gives them a turn to dig/play said hate.  Trading Duress (and the black) for counters and Gitaxian Probe gives you the exact same knowledge and protection.

If you absolutely must play black and hand disruption, at least play Thoughtseize.  The life loss doesn't matter and it at least hits everything you need to get rid of...

Hand disruption is not as bad as your making it out to be. I find it to be great vs tons of matchups just as Spell Pierce would be. Verses a non-blue deck, I cast it soon as possible to save me vs bigger threats. Verses a blue deck ideally I would want to cast one the turn before I go off, and another the turn I go off .

Also, another big point I should have been stressing more is the synergy Duress has with Empty the Warrens. When you Storm Out fast, you usually are tapping everything you got. Meaning you will be tapped out at the end-phase. Being able to cast duress lets you tear apart their hand and safely cast empty the warrens when the situation is right. If i can yoink a wrath or damnation and drop 10+ goblins on the same turn, I probably will.

Quick scenario. Turn one i cantrip, turn two i cantrip, turn three i duress them, yoink a wrath or a mana leak, storm out for 10+ goblins, and recast duress to tear whatever else they had hoping to play in their hand. They plan they had, is now gone. And I win in a couple turns.

If i play spell pierce, there is a chance a good control player would know how to stop me - he would know i could manamorphose for a spell pierce. Besides that, it's turn three, he could just "pay the two"... Or how about you run Spell Snare, and then they Spell Pierce you? There just isnt a perfect counterspell and Duress can handle both those things. I like Pact of Negation because it's free, but I can only use it vs control, because you can only cast it on the turn you storm-out.

overall again my point is: there is not a definate line yet drawn for which option is best.
First, no one plays wrath effects in Modern.  If you make a ton of Goblins, you don't need to worry about all of them being killed.  It just won't happen.  Thus, you don't need to worry about being tapped out at the end of turn because they can't draw anything to kill all the Goblins.  If you don't beleive me, check out some of the latest winning decks.

Second, I know hand disruption is very good in Modern since there is very little actual card advantage and no filtering.  However, it is not good in this deck.  Hand disruption is best when you can apply early pressure to the opponent and then start taking away their options to strike back.  Storm applies no early pressure and just durdles until they can win the game.

The truth of the matter is that you aren't worried about taxing effects.  Your critical spells aren't the rituals.  Thus, if they Spell Pierce you, they're either hitting a less important spell (a ritual) or they're hitting something important and you already have a bunch of mana.  The worst that can happen is that you need to dig further to find another ritual, which would be difficult without Gitaxian Probes and Manamorphose as "free" draw spells.

Also, if they're holding mana open for Spell Pierce or other counters, you need to evaluate the situation.  If you don't have to go off immediately (i.e. you aren't going to lose on the opponent's next turn), you can just wait.  The opponent will likely have to commit something else to the board to kill you, thus tapping down, which allows you to combo without any fear.  If you absolutely must go off, it doesn't matter which "protection" spell you have, you would have to try to fight through the hate regardless.

I should also point out that counters are better to draw while you are actually comboing.  If you draw into a Duress, it's likely dead because you're unlikely to have black lands untapped.  If it isn't dead, you'll likely have to burn a Manamorphose to get the mana to cast it.  With a counterspell, you're not as likely to have that problem because the majority of your lands should be producint blue and red.

It is true that there is no perfect counterspell in Modern.  However, that is very much more in your favor than the opponents because you aren't afraid of anything that really just stops you.
Sign In to post comments