Not sure what to do to make my Bard interesting...

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I'm playing an 11th Level Bard, Cunning Build, Resourceful Magician. I have a fairly optimal build right now, but we've just hit Level 12 and I find myself wanting to change things but I'm not sure for what.

Some issues I've been having:

2 Feats I took were very weak; Distant Advantage and Advantage of Cunning. Distant Advantage because I rarely seem to attack flanked enemies(usually I focus on ones that are out of range) and Advantage of Cunning because I've used it several times and it doesn't really help that much. I think Combat Advantage setups in general can be over-rated.

I'm looking to swap them out for other feats; but can't find what. Feat choices in general are boring. Thinking of taking improved defenses - it'd be good, as my character is somewhat vulnerable, but I'd rather be vulnerable and interesting than durable(defenses are already good too). Plus enemies always seem to target AC. 

Multiclass feats are useless. Before they had Bard of All Trades, they were useful for bolstering skills - now, not so much, also the skill training doesn't stack, so if you want for example to stick with Arcane based classes(which RM encourages you to) you're a bit out of luck.

Resourceful Magician also isn't as great as I hoped - the main power is a reroll, which is really cool but not anything too spectacular. The extra bonuses for Wizard stuff are very good but mostly in a roleplay sense. I'm unlikely, however, the Multiclass into any of the other classes. I've considered sorcerer, but the multiclass feat is amazingly weak(small damage boost) and the RM ability isn't stellar(resist an element chosen at start of day when bloodies, so-so).

I was considering taking Artifcer as it sort of fit with part of my character, but the healing etc. is based off Wisdom so it seems terribly inefficient. at least I have a positive wisdom modifier, but it's still not great.

I like the character herself and have an idea of where to go with her, but I feel like the system is getting in the way. For example the character is human on the sheet, but her backstory has her as Half Eladrin. We were looking at ways to house rule this(as elf & eladrin are pretty different, so I didn't go with Half Elf, and used the human bonus for Will). I was going to go with something that gave me Fey Step + Low Light vision, which woudl put it on a part with the heritage/bloodline feats. But now I'm thinking low light vision isn't that useful for our encounters. I saw a feat that allowed you to make Arcana checks instead of perception - something like that would be cooler. I already have awesome skills though, I'd rather be better in combat. I'd like to do more than just shift people around and grant attacks - I like buffs & debuffs. 

It's looking like some house ruling might be in order but I'm not sure what exactly. Plus the new character builder makes it difficult. 

I'm looking at Skill Powers at the moment as I've ignored them until now. But they're mostly out of combat again, and I'm already good at most things. 
lolwut? multiclassing and ResMag are weak? You can go full blown controller primary with it!
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Human and Cunning Bard is not "fairly optimized." Humans can be optimal, but not when playing a class that ought to be 18/18. Distant Advantage is not optimal either. There are much better ways of gaining CA.

Obvious question, have you read the Bard handbook?

You took RM but aren't planning on multiclassing? What? The whole point of RM is the level 16 feature (which you haven't gotten yet) and poaching powers. Particularly Swordmage and Wizard, and usually taking advatnage of racial feat support, as well, which is another area where human is doing nothing for you (Tiefling and Eladrin are really the go-to races for this build). Though MC Sorcerer for Sorcerous Visions is always nice.

RM doesn't really come online till 16. But when it does, it is not a good choice for novice optimizers. It opens up five classes worth of choices. Most people have trouble making the right choices to optimize one class.
Sorry, I'm multiclassing as wizard. No other options really give me anything though, so I'm not taking advantage of the Bard multiclass thing. It just worked out that most of the stuff I qualify for isn't really that great. We already have a Swordmage and Warlock. Sorcerer Multiclass feat is awful.

I don't see a huge advantage being 18/18 with Cunning Bards. Intelligence doesn't actually come up that often, compared to when I was playing a Chaladin, the Wisdom modifier affected a lot more but it was acceptable for me to have it lower.

I think it's probably too late to swap out for Eladrin, and aside from feats I don't see a huge advantage. I've followed the Handbook fairly closely for the most part too, I have most of the optimal choices. I did swap my Level 9 Daily for Tune of Ice and Wind though, as most of the Level 9 Dailies were terrible, we were low on area attacks and with agile opportunist it's incredible. 

Multiclass feats may be more useful at 16, I don't know. Sorcerous Visions would be nice, but again my character is already so heavy on skills, it seems like something to leave until later levels.

I've swapped my wizard power for Beguiling Strands and gone for psychic lock as my paragon level feat. This works pretty well, it helps solve the problem of being swarmed with enemies, since it's charm I'm more likely to hit too, as I have a Laurel Circlet. Also took a Skill Power, and the Mark of the Healer. I feel a lot more useful now.
You do realize that the 16 feature of RM gives you access to the powers of all the Arcane classed you're MCed into? Yeah, rolling twice for all your attacks the first round of every encounter (Borrowed Confidence, Swordmage utility) with an enormous burst (Wizard) is useless. Right. You're really not approaching the RM build correctly if you think MCing is awful or don't understand the purpose of the PP is to carefully build yourself to work stupendously at 16. Which is a struggle, because for the next four levels every retrain is going to be swapping out a power, so you need to have every MC feat you're going to need all ready to go.

You're at -1 to hit with all the int based attacks you're going to pick up (if your build makes any sense at all) and you're at -1 AC. Both of those are a big deal in terms of optimization. And you're missing out on tons of stellar feat support, whether you see it or not. Go look at every racial feat Eladrins and Tieflings have for Wizards, Warlocks, and Swordmages. Human is not an optimal choice for this build, so it'd be a very bad thing for you to think your character is built optimally. Your character is slightly handicapped. Which is a large part of why you're not feeling all that strong. You have an extra feat slot as a human, but you are struggling to find feats you want to take. On a Tiefling I have something like eight feats I'd like to take and can't, because I don't have room. That is a big difference.
You do realize that the 16 feature of RM gives you access to the powers of all the Arcane classed you're MCed into? Yeah, rolling twice for all your attacks the first round of every encounter (Borrowed Confidence, Swordmage utility) with an enormous burst (Wizard) is useless. Right. You're really not approaching the RM build correctly if you think MCing is awful or don't understand the purpose of the PP is to carefully build yourself to work stupendously at 16. Which is a struggle, because for the next four levels every retrain is going to be swapping out a power, so you need to have every MC feat you're going to need all ready to go.

You're at -1 to hit with all the int based attacks you're going to pick up (if your build makes any sense at all) and you're at -1 AC. Both of those are a big deal in terms of optimization. And you're missing out on tons of stellar feat support, whether you see it or not. Go look at every racial feat Eladrins and Tieflings have for Wizards, Warlocks, and Swordmages. Human is not an optimal choice for this build, so it'd be a very bad thing for you to think your character is built optimally. Your character is slightly handicapped. Which is a large part of why you're not feeling all that strong. You have an extra feat slot as a human, but you are struggling to find feats you want to take. On a Tiefling I have something like eight feats I'd like to take and can't, because I don't have room. That is a big difference.



I've actually filled up my slots now. Also, Heroic Effort & boosted Defenses is really nice.

I tried switching to Eladrin and it just made a mess of things. I like the build I have now I think, I realise Eladrin would make it more Optimal in some ways but I don't think it'd make it more interesting. It's a shame the character builder didn't allow for some houseruling as the GM would let me take some Eladrin feats if I could(I've been purposely avoiding any human feats). Also, the GM is letting me retrain pretty much everything right now due to some stuff that happened that may have "rewritten" my character(though he generally lets us do that anyway). 

I don't think being at -1 is that bad. The only multiclass feat I have at the moment is a Charm one, so it cancels out, and I have 4 different ways(Laurel Circlet, Heroic Effort, Twinned Spell, RM AP ability) of boosting my hits when I need it. Given it's only for one power, it's not really that big a deal. Also, while I may have -1 AC(Why is that? I'm not sure) I have bonuses to the rest of my defenses - if I keep at range, ideally, those are going to be attacked more. 

I'm not seeing *any* Eladrin Wizard powers in the character builder for some reason, and most Eladrin ones revolve around Fey Step. Looking through some of the books, I don't see anything either. That seems like a strange oversight. What feats in particular are you referring to?

Also - there are certain combination of feats that are worth taking(i.e. multiclassing then taking out more feats), it'd just involve swapping out more feats than is worth it at this level. In terms of getting something interesting now, there's not much. 
Seriously, read the handbook.

Also, its not -1 to one power, its going to be -1 for most of your powers. 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Sorry, I'm multiclassing as wizard. No other options really give me anything though, so I'm not taking advantage of the Bard multiclass thing. It just worked out that most of the stuff I qualify for isn't really that great. We already have a Swordmage and Warlock. Sorcerer Multiclass feat is awful.



The point of Resourceful Magician is threefold:
Substitute as many attack powers as you can out for those of Wizard. Particularly at-wills and encounter powers that can have Enlarge Spell work on them. Bard, you minor in control. Wizard you major.
Get Borrowed Confidence. This means you don't miss on round 1.
Still have all the leader/skill monkey options that Bard has.

Round 1 often then goes like this:
Minor: Borrowed Confidence, Minor: Mantle of Unity, Standard: Enlarged Freezing Burst. Twinned Spell: Enlarged Freezing Burst again - have some way of increasing slide distances. AP: Enlarged Prismatic Burst.

Do things right and all the enemies on the field can easily be blinded and at huge penalties to hit anything. When you wipe out the ability of the entire enemy side to hit with an attack on the 1st round, combats get scary easy.

Tiefling is by far the best for this because it can use Secret of Belial for Serpent's Cunning and Imperious Majesty for Init optimization. Eladrin isn't bad, but not quite as good.
You do realize that the 16 feature of RM gives you access to the powers of all the Arcane classed you're MCed into? Yeah, rolling twice for all your attacks the first round of every encounter (Borrowed Confidence, Swordmage utility) with an enormous burst (Wizard) is useless. Right. You're really not approaching the RM build correctly if you think MCing is awful or don't understand the purpose of the PP is to carefully build yourself to work stupendously at 16. Which is a struggle, because for the next four levels every retrain is going to be swapping out a power, so you need to have every MC feat you're going to need all ready to go.



I dont know, its really tough to give up Haste. At least until you can pick up Climactic Chord at 22.


You're at -1 to hit with all the int based attacks you're going to pick up (if your build makes any sense at all) and you're at -1 AC. Both of those are a big deal in terms of optimization. And you're missing out on tons of stellar feat support, whether you see it or not. Go look at every racial feat Eladrins and Tieflings have for Wizards, Warlocks, and Swordmages. Human is not an optimal choice for this build, so it'd be a very bad thing for you to think your character is built optimally. Your character is slightly handicapped. Which is a large part of why you're not feeling all that strong. You have an extra feat slot as a human, but you are struggling to find feats you want to take. On a Tiefling I have something like eight feats I'd like to take and can't, because I don't have room. That is a big difference.



An RM is better off being INT primary after 16. You're much better off replacing all your Bard powers with WIZ and losing a whole point of healing isnt going to hurt.

In particular - my issue is more with *Arcane* multiclass feats. I see some benefit in taking a Warlord feat to give people bonuses to damage with action point(as well as unlocking some very meaty feats) but since I've chosen Resourceful Magician, I feel the need to pick from that list.

With the choices I do have - there are still some issues, our last party was lead by a Warlord and since I've taken over as the Leader character I've been careful not to retread existing ground too much, he was a very good player and I don't want to be judged by that standard. I can also take Ardent for more healing, but that's a bit complicated. Of course - a lot of the multiclass feats don't apply. A lot of them are based on meleé stuff, or things that I need strength for despite qualifying them - Bard multiclassing isn't actually that great for that reason, you're mostly stuck with Warlock(already have on in party), Sorcerer(extremely weak MC feat). 

There's also the matter of taking things that fit my character.

One of the biggest benefits to Multiclassing was to gain extra skills - but with stuff like Bard of all Trades, it's not that useful anymore.

I would like to take Artificer, but the healing power is a bit weak. The Bonus to AC/Temp hit points thing is neat, but I lose out a bit due to my Wisdom modifier. If only Resourceful Magician had been updated to include a buff for Artificer, it would be much better. 
If I'm swapping out all my power for Wizard ones, wouldn't I just be best off playing a Wizard? I thought the point was for versatility.

I could also take the feat to use Cha for all multiclass abilities - I'll have another free slot before 16, and I can also use my next feat slot to take another multiclass ability with an encounter at will that I normally wouldn't be able to use.

I was honestly thinking of mostly taking Wizard powers that have an effect on a miss(which is quite a few). I'm not big on damage. I want to keep msot of my attacks as Bard if I can. Plus - what am I going to do about my at wills? They're always going to be Charisma based. Also, I'm pretty sure I can't swap out all my powers for wizard ones in one go.

Was Resourceful Magician the wrong path for me then? I'm not sure what else I should have taken - there's probably still time to change if it there is something better though(either from wizard or from another multiclass feat).
I find Bards work better as a Diplomat: The guy (or Girl) who negotiates with the NPCs/Intelligent Monsters to get a deal that both of them can benifit from.
The Citadel Megadungeon: http://yellowdingosappendix.blogspot.com.au/2012/08/the-citadel-mega-dungeon-now-with-room.html
Yes, bards are the diplomacy bitch, its usually fun to be more
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
I find Bards work better as a Diplomat: The guy (or Girl) who negotiates with the NPCs/Intelligent Monsters to get a deal that both of them can benifit from.



This tends to not work well in our games. That said I haven't tried much yet.
If you have no clue how to optimally build around RM (and you don't) and, perhaps more to the point, if you don't want to take advantage of the incredible power of having access to the best powers of between 4-6 classes, yes, you should take a different PP. The whole point of this PP is swapping out powers, if you want to keep Bard powers, this PP does nothing for you. At all.

That feat doesn't work for this situation. You can retrain your at-wills to be Wizard ones, once you hit 16. Or Warlock ones. Or Swordmage ones. Wizard is usually the best choice though. The 16 feature is quite powerful, that way. No, you can't swap them out all at once. Which is why I said you're going to be retraining powers every level after 16 till basically level 21.

Being a full leader while also being a full controller is not something a Wizard can do. It is something an RM Bard can do. So, no, not better off playing a Wizard.
This all seems like a headache for me, and makes it hard to build an actual character. My character works off Charisma. She's the diplomat, the smooth talker, the face of the party. It makes sense for her to have Charisma as the primary stat. She has also trained as a wizard, and is a bit of a book worm, but the sort of model for her is like some kind of Fairy Princess (or an Idol Performer type Mahou Shoujo - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_girl ) - magic just sort of happens, which fits with Charisma type builds. Unfortunately, Wizard type powers fit best for "support" type magic. If there was a proper seperate Witch class, it might have fit better. A lot of the fluff for the HotF one is wonderful, and some of the powers are neat in concept, but they're very weak as ranked by the Wizard's Handbook. 

I've tried fiddling the stats to get them as Co Primaries and it's not really working out.

I don't mind switching PPs, but it was the only really good one at the time, and I like the rerolling ability.

Would it be worth taking Sorcerer powers since they're based off Charisma?

I took Resourceful Magician because it seemed like the best of the Paragon paths I had in front of me, and helped expand the character's general more magical nature. 

Also, I'm pretty sure it says *everytime you would learn a new power*, meaning you would not be able to replace all 3 encounters, all 3 dailies, 2 At wills(and you can't learn new At-wills anyway), by Level 21, it would take at least twice that long. If it means through retraining(and I don't think it does, and it gets confusing since many GMs including ours will allow you to retrain more than one thing if circumstances allow), then it'll still take another 2 levels for the at-will. It seems strange to have a Paragon Path that isn't complete until 3 levels into Epic. I don't think the intention is that you swap everything out like that.

Also, Wizard powers are not universally much stronger than Bards, and many of the best ones tend to have effects on a miss anyway. 
The only good one? Bard PPs are amazing...

Also, you can train out powers at 16,17,17,18,19,19,20,21 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
......Refluff the powers. Done. Fluff is highly malleable in 4e. There is zero reason not to take Wizard powers because they don't fit your fluff, when you can make the fluff anything you want.

Sorc powers aren't really as strong as Wizard ones for this shtick. You could do it, but it'd be a very different character. Also... fluff wise, they are identical if you want them to be, as mentioned. So, um...

When you retrain, you would learn a new power. That is how you retrain the at-wills and yes, it does apply to retraining. If your DM is houseruling that you have more then one retrain per level, grats, you won't have to wait. It should be noted this forum operats on RAW, not houserules and the advice given reflects that fact. For the rest? You gain a power at 16, 17, 19. So retrain 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21. Gain new at 16, 17, 19. That is 8 new powers. Personally I keep one Bard At-will usually. It is party dependent. I switch to all Wizard dailies ASAP, pick up Borrowed Confidence as my u16. But read Mommy's attack sequence above (which destroys encounters). It relies on one utility, one at-will, and one encounter. That is all available at 17 with normal retraining rules. Pick up the utility at 16, retrain at 16, pick up at 17, and retrain at 17.

The power of the path relies on switching out powers. If you don't want to switch out powers, take a different path. It really is that simple.
......Refluff the powers. Done. Fluff is highly malleable in 4e. There is zero reason not to take Wizard powers because they don't fit your fluff, when you can make the fluff anything you want.

Sorc powers aren't really as strong as Wizard ones for this shtick. You could do it, but it'd be a very different character. Also... fluff wise, they are identical if you want them to be, as mentioned. So, um...

When you retrain, you would learn a new power. That is how you retrain the at-wills and yes, it does apply to retraining. If your DM is houseruling that you have more then one retrain per level, grats, you won't have to wait. It should be noted this forum operats on RAW, not houserules and the advice given reflects that fact. For the rest? You gain a power at 16, 17, 19. So retrain 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21. Gain new at 16, 17, 19. That is 8 new powers. Personally I keep one Bard At-will usually. It is party dependent. I switch to all Wizard dailies ASAP, pick up Borrowed Confidence as my u16.

The power of the path relies on switching out powers. If you don't want to switch out powers, take a different path. It really is that simple.




Which other path thought? The only other one that's highly rated is Life Singer, but that doesn't suit our party. While many powers are a black box, you can't deny there are still some very distinct abilities - for example the Cantrips are very useful, much better than the Hedge Wizard's gloves I had which were far more restricted. Also, annoyingly, the character builder doesn't allow for mechanical refluffing, which takes some of the fun out of it(or a lot). I had the whole PP reskinned into "Resourceful Musician"(search my posts), but there was no way of changing it on the print out.

Also I just read a big discussion on this(which you posted in I believe) and I'm not convinced you can retrain at wills.  

I'm considering leaning more towards artifcer powers as it supposedly as good Party Buffs, which is what I'd look for I think.
The best buffing Artificers are Con based. And if you can't refluff...
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
A good many of the Artificer attack powers aren't going to do much for you if you don't have Wis or Con.

Try Summer Rhymer PP IMHO.

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
Well, since I can take multiple feats, couldn't I do a mix of Bard/Artificer/Wizard, maybe even throw some Sorcerer into the mix? Chosing the best of 3-4 paths will probably make up for not replacing all of my powers with Wizard ones. 

I think people are under-rating Bard powers too - generally, they're not very strong, and generally, wizard ones are. However there are some exceptions where they work with other abilities - for example anything that involved party members and forced movement(tune of Ice and Wind). Some Bard utilities tend to be at least on a par with Wizard ones, too. 
A good many of the Artificer attack powers aren't going to do much for you if you don't have Wis or Con.

Try Summer Rhymer PP IMHO.

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...



Summer Rhymer doesn't really look any stronger than what I'm intending to do with Resourceful Magician, though. Teleports are nice but not that strong especially when you're already shifting people around fairly handily. The "teleport as a free action" thing is cool, however the RM path gives you something which involves 2 full move actions for you and a party member, which isn't as good but with the right set up, could be as useful. Teleporting 2 squares limits you if you have to move around a lot.
Any path. Take a black rated one. Taking a highly rated path and ignoring the feature that makes it highly rated makes it worthless, nearly anything would better.

I can think of a few hundred ways to fluff cantrips, actually. Fluff is fluff. If you want to change the way the actual power cards read (though I can't imagine why you'd care, it isn't like you read the fluff text every time you cast.... right?), I suggest a pencil. Or if you want to be elaborate, you can make your own cards in any of a number of card editing programs. They exist. But really, fluff is fluff. How useful something is irrelevant to how you fluff it.

You're wrong. Glad we cleared that up. If it is the thread I am thinking of, it was when RM came out. That was years ago now, this isn't a question that there has been any debate on in that same time frame. Because there was, and is, a right answer.
Hell, switch to Cha/Con and take War Chanter, which is apparently infinitely easier to use.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Any path. Take a black rated one. Taking a highly rated path and ignoring the feature that makes it highly rated makes it worthless, nearly anything would better.



It's not that I'm ignoring it. It's just that I don't really feel like stripping all the Bard powers.

I can think of a few hundred ways to fluff cantrips, actually. Fluff is fluff.



The cantrips I chose have mechanical uses - for example, Chameleon has been very useful more than once as we only have one proper Stealthy member(thanks to bonuses, my regular stealth is just about good enough to support it).

You're wrong. Glad we cleared that up.



I would say "No need for this attitude", but I'm pretty sure you're aware of that already. People are less likely to take your advice when you act confrontational though, making your posts a wasted effort. Unless your intent is purely to show off knowledge rather than help, of course.
Hell, switch to Cha/Con and take War Chanter, which is apparently infinitely easier to use.



That wouldn't suit my character at all :/

Also, if training out all your powers for wizard ones is so awesome I don't really see an equivalent awesome thing in any of the other paths, at least nothing that kicks in any quicker. I'm still at only level 12, and it might be probably be Christmas before we hit Level 16. So this is sort of a useless argument in the first place as there's no point thinking that far ahead yet. I don't really know what way the party will be by then even, people may be leaving and rejoining.

I think the best thing I do at that level is just to pick the best Wizard controller powers that don't neccessarily need to hit - then pick the best sorcerer powers, and keep the few really good Bard ones. The GM said we might be able to work something out in terms of Int/to hit for wizard powers previously. I think people are really missing the point here in a number of ways.

I'll consider changing the Paragon Path or maybe house ruling this one to make it more worthwhile keeping some Bard powers.  
Well, you're not stripping all the Bard powers. That'd take more levels. And yes, a handful are worth keeping. But out of 4-6 classes to choose from, the list of powers that are still worth having is very small.

OK? And? Cantrips have mechanical purposes. How you fluff them is irrelevant to that. Fluff is fluff.

You're wrong. Until you're not wrong anymore, the advice is wasted anyway, because you're operating on the idea that something that is possible, is not. Ignorance is an insurmountable obstacle to taking advice. You're here because you realize you're ignorant, why else ask for advice? So I don't really see any need to point it out and then correct you, I can skip straight to correcting you. 
The problem is more that you've come into Charop, asked for help optimising, and then completely rejected the advice on how to optimise one of the most awesome paragon paths in the game.

You've asked for help making your character better and more fun, people gave it, and you said no. That's why people get annoyed.
Well, you're not stripping all the Bard powers. That'd take more levels. And yes, a handful are worth keeping. But out of 4-6 classes to choose from, the list of powers that are still worth having is very small.

OK? And? Cantrips have mechanical purposes. How you fluff them is irrelevant to that. Fluff is fluff.

You're wrong. Until you're not wrong anymore, the advice is wasted anyway, because you're operating on the idea that something that is possible, is not. Ignorance is an insurmountable obstacle to taking advice. You're here because you realize you're ignorant, why else ask for advice? So I don't really see any need to point it out and then correct you, I can skip straight to correcting you. 



This isn't even what I was asking the in the first place, but apparently you have trouble admitting you're wrong yourself. 
The problem is more that you've come into Charop, asked for help optimising, and then completely rejected the advice on how to optimise one of the most awesome paragon paths in the game.

You've asked for help making your character better and more fun, people gave it, and you said no. That's why people get annoyed.



I never asked for min/maxing. I asked for something more interesting and fun. Most of this discussion is irrelevant because it won't kick in for another 4-10 levels.
This isn't even what I was asking the in the first place, but apparently you have trouble admitting you're wrong yourself. 

Sigh. You asked how to make your character interesting. Now you are in CharOp, where we focus on things being interesting mechanically. Fluff and mechanics are separate things in 4e. So, step 1, I corrected you on your mechanical perception of your character. Starting with you not getting the point of your PP and the thing that makes it, dun dun dun, mechanically interesting. Step 2, explained how to make your character interesting. Does it involve waiting till the mechanically interesting part of your PP kicks in? Well, um, yeah, but that is true for hundreds of builds built around the 16 feature of a PP. Thousands. You said you didn't want to take advantage of said feature and said you didn't really want to wait. So I told you pick a different a path, because given those contrainsts that is literally the only option that'll work. You complained none of the other paths available were powerful enough. I am not sure why that matters, since you claim you don't care about making a powerful character... and for that matter, I am not sure why you're in CharOp if you don't care about how powerful a path is.
What could possibly be more interesting than the party musician flinging two ultra-accurate explosive balls of death turn 1?
The problem is more that you've come into Charop, asked for help optimising, and then completely rejected the advice on how to optimise one of the most awesome paragon paths in the game.

You've asked for help making your character better and more fun, people gave it, and you said no. That's why people get annoyed.



I never asked for min/maxing. I asked for something more interesting and fun. Most of this discussion is irrelevant because it won't kick in for another 4-10 levels.



Solution: Take Adroit Explorer. There you go, more Leadership tricks, it kicks in ASAP, and is not hard to use.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
This isn't even what I was asking the in the first place, but apparently you have trouble admitting you're wrong yourself. 

Sigh. You asked how to make your character interesting. Now you are in CharOp, where we focus on things being interesting mechanically.



But I am looking for something interesting mechanically.

Fluff and mechanics are separate things in 4e. So, step 1, I corrected you on your mechanical perception of your character.



Again, some powers undoubtedly work in a certain way. Bard powers involve a lot of teleporting and shifting; as well as more traditional charm effects and the like. I like the Bard powers I have for the most part - but they're not always as strong or useful as I'd like them to be. The basic mechanics are fine, though, for the most part.

Starting with you not getting the point of your PP and the thing that makes it, dun dun dun, mechanically interesting.



I understand the strength of the path is in sapping out powers. However, I like the theme and functionality of Bard powers. I would want some wizard dailies, maybe a sorcerer encounter; but I want to keep some Bard powers. I don't see what's wrong with it. I may be incorrect on the extent to which you can swap powers, but I am not "wrong" for wanting a specific build of character. Also, at Level 12, this is completely irrelevant. I was looking for combinations of feats and powers that will make things interesting right now.

Step 2, explained how to make your character interesting. Does it involve waiting till the mechanically interesting part of your PP kicks in? Well, um, yeah, but that is true for hundreds of builds built around the 16 feature of a PP. Thousands. You said you didn't want to take advantage of said feature and said you didn't really want to wait.



I said I didn't want to swap out all my powers with Wizard ones. I want to see what some of the Bard powers are like at high levels. There was no indication either from the source materials or the handbook that this was the way to do it, regardless. It's also possible that I might not be picking a weak option, but you're going with an overly strong one.

So I told you pick a different a path, because given those contrainsts that is literally the only option that'll work. You complained none of the other paths available were powerful enough. I am not sure why that matters, since you claim you don't care about making a powerful character... and for that matter, I am not sure why you're in CharOp if you don't care about how powerful a path is.



I never said I didn't care about power, I just have different priorities. For me, having a character that feels right with powers that interest me and fit the character is important. I don't buy the infinite refluff thing -there is only so far you can take it.
The problem is more that you've come into Charop, asked for help optimising, and then completely rejected the advice on how to optimise one of the most awesome paragon paths in the game.

You've asked for help making your character better and more fun, people gave it, and you said no. That's why people get annoyed.



I never asked for min/maxing. I asked for something more interesting and fun. Most of this discussion is irrelevant because it won't kick in for another 4-10 levels.



Solution: Take Adroit Explorer. There you go, more Leadership tricks, it kicks in ASAP, and is not hard to use.



That path is based more around toughness/perserverence, there's not much leadershippy about it :E
Guys give up, a troll is a troll.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
The problem is more that you've come into Charop, asked for help optimising, and then completely rejected the advice on how to optimise one of the most awesome paragon paths in the game.

You've asked for help making your character better and more fun, people gave it, and you said no. That's why people get annoyed.



I never asked for min/maxing. I asked for something more interesting and fun. Most of this discussion is irrelevant because it won't kick in for another 4-10 levels.



Solution: Take Adroit Explorer. There you go, more Leadership tricks, it kicks in ASAP, and is not hard to use.



That path is based more around toughness/perserverence, there's not much leadershippy about it :E



Getting two Echoing Weapons off in one turn = Leadership. Literally all you care about or need is in the E11 and D20.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
I never asked for min/maxing.



You're in CharOp.  If you're here, you're asking for min/maxing.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
I never said I didn't care about power, I just have different priorities. For me, having a character that feels right with powers that interest me and fit the character is important. I don't buy the infinite refluff thing -there is only so far you can take it.

4e encourages an infinite level of refluffing. The developers literally built the game that way. So, um, I guess if you're not playing 4e, you don't have to buy into refluffing.

It is relevant. Your character will be mechanically interesting when you can swap out powers. You don't want to wait till 16 for that to happen. So take a different PP. Christ. This is not complicated.
I'm really confused how a War Chanter doesn't fit the character concept of a Magical Girl Musician, fluff wise "I DO AMAZING MAGICAL THINGS AND GIVE MY FRIENDS COURGE THROUGH THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP AND MUSIC" is entirely what War Chanter does. And well, if I'm misunderstanding your concept, then just refluff because you can and should.

An example of "too far" refluffing would be having a human fighter that's a government SOLDIER and believes that he is the heir to a race of ancients and tries to take over the world and become a god, and instead of attacking you with some sort of weapon, his attacks all involve a comet coming in from outside the galaxy and smashing through the various outer planets of the solar system until it strikes the sun, causing it to supernova, destroying the inner planets until it just barely touches the planet he is on, just enough to attack his intended target (Cleave)
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.