Rogue skills meh

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I'm severely disliking the way rogue skills are done. There's almost no point in any other class having skills as it stands with them able to start at a 13 and maybe increase it with a 10+ roll.
Every class has its own unique ability which separates it from the others. I like it.

In our playtest session everybody was happy that the rogue didn't blow up any traps. Nobody cared because nobody else had any skills with traps. The rogue can only do his stuff with his trained skills.

So the others had their skills where they where good and needed.

Worked very well for us.
Ceterum censeo scrinium puniceum esse delendam
No, it's that the rogue can do everything. It makes other classes even having skills redundant 75% of the time.
No, it's that the rogue can do everything. It makes other classes even having skills redundant 75% of the time.



Skill mastery only applies to skill they are trained in, and that's a maximum of 7 out of 25, 4 background and 3 for scheme. That's hardly 75% of the time, in fac it's ~28% of the time if my math serves me right. Somehow I doubt your rogue is going to have Survival, fobidden lore, religious lore, animal handling, intimidate, insight, AND magical lore, on TOP of the skills he get's with his scheme (This was a smattering of skills other pregens had). I don't buy it.

Rogues are good at whatever it is they do. Skills play a huge part in their class, and so choosing them is a big choice for them. They deserve to be really good at whatever it is they choose to do. However, I'm certain there will be plenty of skills your rogue will not have. Plenty. We don't even know if this is the final skill list, which I'm sure it's not. There may be more.
My two copper.
No, it's that the rogue can do everything. It makes other classes even having skills redundant 75% of the time.

Skill mastery only applies to skill they are trained in

That's not what it says. What is says is "Additionally, when you make a check using any of your skills, you can take 10 or the result of the die roll, then add any modifiers." Note trained skills aren't anywhere to be found. So all skill checks, trained or not, fall under skill mastery. The only time it's wouldn't take effect is if you have a roll that doesn't fall under a skill like a balance check.
''Your Skill'' refers to the Skills you are trained in, as confirmed on Twitter on september 5th:


Jacob ZD ZimmermanJacob ZD Zimmerman
@Wizards_DnD When the Rogue's Skill Mastery says "skills you have", it means "skills you're trained in," right?



Wizards_DnDWizards_DnD
@jacobz_20 Yes, skills you are trained in.


Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

That's not what it says. What is says is "Additionally, when you make a check using any of your skills, you can take 10 or the result of the die roll, then add any modifiers." Note trained skills aren't anywhere to be found. So all skill checks, trained or not, fall under skill mastery. The only time it's wouldn't take effect is if you have a roll that doesn't fall under a skill like a balance check.

No, absolutely not.  It says, "when you make a check using any of your skills."  

"Your skills" refers to the skills you have, obviously.  You do not have skills you are not trained in.  There is even a sidebar on page one of the Background document titled "how do I use my skills."  The usage of "my" there clearly denotes the relationship between training in a skill and possession of that skill.

Sorry, you are wrong about this.  Skill Mastery only works on skills you have trained. 

''Your Skill'' refers to the Skills you are trained in, as confirmed on Twitter on september 5th:
Jacob ZD ZimmermanJacob ZD Zimmerman @Wizards_DnDWhen the Rogue's Skill Mastery says "skills you have", it means "skills you're trained in," right?


Wizards_DnDWizards_DnD @jacobz_20 Yes, skills you are trained in.



while that's nice and all, that's NOT what's written. The fact that it had to be crairified in a tweet proves that it isn't RAW. Once it sees print, it'll be a lot better.

If there aren't untrained skills then why ever SAY trained or training. JUST say you gain the skill and leave it at that. If your quote is correct, then they worded it VERY poorly. See when they say 'When you attempt a task or action that involves a skill in which you are trained'. I have to think. Why add trained when you can just say "When you attempt a task or action that involves a skill you have'? If they just had 'gain' and 'have' skills instead of training and trained in a skill it's be much clearer.
''Your Skill'' refers to the Skills you are trained in, as confirmed on Twitter on september 5th:
Jacob ZD ZimmermanJacob ZD Zimmerman @Wizards_DnDWhen the Rogue's Skill Mastery says "skills you have", it means "skills you're trained in," right?


Wizards_DnDWizards_DnD @jacobz_20 Yes, skills you are trained in.



while that's nice and all, that's NOT what's written. The fact that it had to be crairified in a tweet proves that it isn't RAW. Once it sees print, it'll be a lot better.

If there aren't untrained skills then why ever SAY trained or training. JUST say you gain the skill and leave it at that. If your quote is correct, then they worded it VERY poorly. See when they say 'When you attempt a task or action that involves a skill in which you are trained'. I have to think. Why add trained when you can just say "When you attempt a task or action that involves a skill you have'? If they just had 'gain' and 'have' skills instead of training and trained in a skill it's be much clearer.



that is what is written. "when you make a check using any of your skills"

if it was otherwise, it would say "when you make a skill check"

Well, actually, it wouldn't say, "when you make a skill check," either, because there are no "skill checks."  When you make an ability check for which a skill you have trained would apply, you use your skill modifier (which consists of the appropriate ability modifier and your skill bonus, which ranges from +3 to +7) instead of your ability modifier.  If you lack a relevant skill, you just make the check using the most relevant ability.

So, it is impossible to make a "skill check," but it is also impossible to make a check using a skill you don't have.  That's why the language "when you make a check using one of your skills" is correct.  

Even if your are, for example, rolling to notice an enemy sneaking up on you, it is not a "spot check."  It is a Wisdom check for which the Spot skill applies.  If you do not possess the Spot skill, you are not making a Spot check at all.  

In other words, by RAW, it is actually impossible for you to make a roll with a skill (never mind your skill) unless you have that skill trained.

But if this thread has taught us anything, it's that the rules regarding skills in general really need to be more clear, simple, and intuitive.
Many people have suggested that instead of doing the "take 10" the rogue should just gain advantage with trained skills.   I'm not sure about that.

What I do is I use the "take 10" plus bonuses (usually DC 16) but if I think that the action should have a chance to fail (like when finding a trap or disarming a trap, or if he balances on a tight space, or tries to avoid falling, etc.) I make the rogue player roll d20.  If he rolls a natural "1" he fails.  Even though it is unlikely that he'll roll a "1", it seems to make the rogue sweat just a little.     I don't call for the roll when the rogue uses stealth to move silently or hide since this becomes a contest vs. the creatures who could possibly notice the rogue.

A Brave Knight of WTF

Many people have suggested that instead of doing the "take 10" the rogue should just gain advantage with trained skills.   I'm not sure about that.

What I do is I use the "take 10" plus bonuses (usually DC 16) but if I think that the action should have a chance to fail (like when finding a trap or disarming a trap, or if he balances on a tight space, or tries to avoid falling, etc.) I make the rogue player roll d20.  If he rolls a natural "1" he fails.  Even though it is unlikely that he'll roll a "1", it seems to make the rogue sweat just a little.     I don't call for the roll when the rogue uses stealth to move silently or hide since this becomes a contest vs. the creatures who could possibly notice the rogue.



I actually starting doing this in my games. I really like the minimum 10 since it makes the rogue feel like skills are his thing, as it should be. That high % chance of succeeding has led to the rogues in my games using their skills much more often. However, I think the nat 1 still being a failure is a good idea. Still a little room for chaos
My two copper.
Since when the hell is Twitter canon?  It's poorly worded, hopefully they'll fix it in the next packet.  If not, go team Rogue.

Vampire Class/Feat in 2013!

I prefer Next because 4E players and CharOpers can't find their ass without a grid and a power called "Find Ass."

You know this is a playtest, right? It's not like things are really canon, so much as "in this draft."  And in such an unpolished form, they're not going to release a FAQ for it.
'That's just, like, your opinion, man.'
It's not really poorly worded. I just asked 10 people I know how they thought it functioned and all of them answered that it affects the 6 skills you are trained in, 3 background and 3 scheme. I don't really see how people are getting confused. If the word skill is used at all it applies only to the ones you are trained in. Other than that it's refered to as an attribute check.
My two copper.
I'm not in agreement it's not poorly worded.  I also can't find the three skills you state are derived from scheme.  My Rogue sheet doesn't mention skills to be acquired through scheme at all.  Do I have the wrong sheet?  I've checked several times and talked to several of my friends and they say the only Skills you can gain other than the first 3 in your background are from Jack-of-all-trades.
I'm not in agreement it's not poorly worded.  I also can't find the three skills you state are derived from scheme.  My Rogue sheet doesn't mention skills to be acquired through scheme at all.  Do I have the wrong sheet?  I've checked several times and talked to several of my friends and they say the only Skills you can gain other than the first 3 in your background are from Jack-of-all-trades.

Rogues and rogues alone get three extra skills from their scheme.  They can take either Thief or Thug as an extra background, and the one you choose also determines other special abilities you acquire over the course of leveling.
I'm not saying I don't believe you I just can't find that anyplace in these rules.  I know you can choose thug or thief and I know you get additional traits at first, third and fifth levels but these aren't skills.  The only place I find where skills are derived are background.  Please either quote the portion of the rules that states the extra 3 skills above background skills or point it out to me specifically so I can point this out to my DM.  I have found no place that says rogues get three additional skills other than a specialty of Jack-of-all trades which gives two additional skill picks, one at first and another at third.

Please, don't just say "well they do" because that is no help at all.
"You gain the background of the same name, in addition to the background you gain when you create your character"

Now it does not specifically say you get the skills of the background in the writing, obviously needs editing to make it clearer. However, it says you "gain the background" which is been interperated as "you gain the background completely with all skills and traits."
You gain the background, as someone said above.  Getting a background means getting skills.  It's practically the definition of a background.
Thanks loads.  That paragraph always seemed written poorly to me and the description you provide makes the most sense in how to interpret it correctly.  I will use your method from now on or until something offical comes out to change it.

Thanks again,
When a rogue takes 10 what is exactly added? Because the rogue in my game is taking 10 which ='s to 17 with ability and skill training added.
Ant Farm
When a rogue takes 10 what is exactly added? Because the rogue in my game is taking 10 which ='s to 17 with ability and skill training added.


Thats it. 10 is considered his "Roll", so then you would add abil mod and +3 for skill.
My two copper.
Thanks loads.  That paragraph always seemed written poorly to me and the description you provide makes the most sense in how to interpret it correctly.  I will use your method from now on or until something offical comes out to change it.

Thanks again,



The pre-gen rogue also has the skills added to help provide an example.
I'm severely disliking the way rogue skills are done. There's almost no point in any other class having skills as it stands with them able to start at a 13 and maybe increase it with a 10+ roll.

I played a Rogue with the Jack of all Trades specialisation today. I was good at:


  • Diplomacy

  • Bluff

  • Stealth

  • Insight

  • Religion

  • Intimidate

  • Streetwise


There were 18 skills I was NOT good at. I was very poor at ALL but 1 of the knowledges and was missing several core "rogue" skills (perception, disable traps). I disagree that I made the others having skills redundant.

You don't have a skill if you arent trained in it. Thats one of the things about 5e.
Otherwise it's just an ability check - not a skill.

That said, it wasn't very well worded considering the way skills have been in the previous editions - but it makes perfect sense in this edition.