Is this a BIG loophole for fighter damage?

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Leap Attack from Complete Adventurer allows you to triple Power Attack bonus damage while wielding a two-handed weapon. But Power Attack states that you deal double the bonus damage while wielding a two-handed weapon. So could you deal double damage, but then triple THAT damage using Leap Attack? So you're actually dealing six times the bonus damage from Power Attack?

Or does the Leap Attack multiplier override the normal Power Attack multiplier for wielding a two-handed weapon?

Oh, and another kind of unrelated question: can you use Leap Attack at the same time as the Heedless Charge maneuver gained from taking the Shock Trooper feat from Complete Warrior? So you use a Leap Attack but apply the penalty from Power Attack to your AC instead of attack bonus.
the leap attack ratio superceades that of power attack, but yes, you can use the heeadless charge manuver from the shock trooper feat well leap attacking.
That's some bad news and some good news. May I ask how you determined that the Leap Attack bonus takes the place of the normal Power Attack bonus?

That ability has been subject to some errata. Now, you deal +100% of the normal bonus damage from power attack. So, you can get 4-to-1 returns from a two-handed weapon.


You can actually manage 6-to-1 returns with the supreme power attack ability of the frenzied berserker prestige class (Complete Warrior), which has also been subject to errata.

We don't really use errata in our games since it's too much work to keep up with the updates. But are you saying the effects do stack?
Think of leap attack as a tactical feat like shoock trooper, it's an advancment of the power attack feat that can only be used in a certain cercumstance. Also note the wording of the feat, it reads "...you can double the extra damage delt by use of the power attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two handed weapon, you insted triple the damage from power attack...", whihc also showes it's ment to advance thee capacitys of power attack, not stack with them.
I suppose you're right. I think technically the wording allows for x6, but I'm really just being nitpicky. I do realize they MEANT for the x3 to replace the normal x2 for wielding a two-handed weapon. I'll just run the loophole by my DM. But, just for fun, here's the damage I WOULD do if I used the loophole and also used Headlong Rush, and my 3d6 damage magic longsword:

((3d6 + 8) + 42) x 2 = (3d6) x 2 + 100 damage!!

My DM would kill me. 
We don't really use errata in our games since it's too much work to keep up with the updates. But are you saying the effects do stack?




That's probably one of the weirdest house rules I've ever heard. Probably tops "We ban ToB" or even "We ban Monks".
Really? I should talk to our DM about it. The thing is most of our players are very new and we don't even all have books of our own, so we just don't bother adding more complication by going online to look up all the updates. For the record, though, our DM banned druids, so we do have weird house rules.
Actually, banning Druids kinda makes sense.
If you're power attacking with Leap Attack, they DO stack, but not in the way think. "x2", in D&D terms, just means "+100% of base damage". Of course, "base damage" refers to your weapon's base damage + anything that gives a flat bonus. So, like Maat said, you would deal 4x your danage, not 3 or 6.
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I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
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May I ask how you determined that the Leap Attack bonus takes the place of the normal Power Attack bonus?


This is one of those things where getting 6x damage would just be willfully misinterpretting the rules. Unless you're playing a devil, that's kind of bad form. If you are calling it a "loophole", that suggests you don't really believe it was intended to be that way. It's kind of like how people choose to interpret Master Spellthief to give them a ridiculous CL because the wording is a little exploitable.

Maybe they should have hired some lawyers to go over the books but that would open a whole new can of worms.
The errata didn't really change much: It made things a bit more internally consistent (i.e. Leap Attack switching to a +% ability on top of extant Power Attack modes, instead of its original wording which may or may not have been a replacement effect). And you really don't need a loophole for damage dealing. This is pretty stock Ubercharge mechanics, and those have been around since at least as long as CAdv's been out.

The big thing isn't the damage potential. It's the accuracy. The real core ability to charge damage is Shock Trooper's Heedless Charge maneuver, which lets you Power Attack at no loss of accuracy. Stack enough multipliers on that - Leap Attack, Pounce, Supreme Power Attack, Headlong Rush, Valorous weapons, etc. - and it's not hard to break any damage record.

The "classical" example with extra multipliers (but without Pounce) is this:
Half-Orc Fighter 6
18/12/14/11/10/6 ability scores (15 starting Strength, +2 racial, +1 at 4th)
01: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush
02: Improved Bull Rush
03: Weapon Focus [Optional feat]
04: Headlong Rush
05: 
06: Leap Attack, Shock Trooper 
Equip: +1 Greatsword, nothing else of note (L6 is too early for a warrior-type to have serious +Strength equipment or the +2 equivalent that a +1 Valorous sword gets you.)

Attack: 6 base +4 Strength +1 Focus +1 Enhancement = +12, or +14 on a charge.
Average CR 6 AC: 18.88, let's be conservative and say 19 -> 72% chance of a normal hit, 8% chance of a confirmed critical hit.
Charge damage, using full Power Attack + Heedless Charge + Headlong Rush + Leap Attack:
--Base: (2d6 + 6 Strength +1 enhancement +(12 Power Attack +12 Leap Attack)) x2 Headlong Rush = 76.
--Critical:  (2d6 + 6 Strength +1 enhancement +(12 Power Attack +12 Leap Attack)) x3 (Headlong Rush+Critical) = 114.
Final expected damage: 0.72*76 + 0.08*114 =  63.84.
(Note: Average CR 6 HP is 69.12.) 

That's at level 6 with bare-bones gear and a pretty basic gear set. By level 8 you might add in Weapon Spec and a Valorous weapon, or you probably dipped Barbarian to grab Pounce so you can swing twice on that charge. (The alternative base Ubercharge build uses Human Barbarian 2 / Fighter 4; works out slightly better but I wanted to show multipliers sooner.)

I don't know about you, but I think that once this reaches your level, you might need to ignore errata and use a custom-magic'd 3d6 longsword to match what the rules already provide.

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Bleed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
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Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

So if x2 means +100%, x3 means +200%? So it would be +100% Power Attack damage, +200% Power Attack damage from Leap Attack, so +300%, or x4 Power Attack damage in total? But Headlong Rush says the attack deals "double damage", so I would make a Power Attack, add 300% of the Power Attack damage onto it, and then double the TOTAL damage from the attack, correct?

So if I get +7 Power Attack damage, it's actually +28 Power Attack damage with Leap Attack, but it's +56 with Headlong Rush? 
It's all covered in multiple multipliers. The *3 indicates a +100% on top of the initial 100% provided by a two handed weapon. You're still only doing *3 power attacks with Leap attack and Headlong Rush adds another 100% so *4 with two handed.
Is multiple multipliers a section of some rulebook that I could read? Where are the official 3.5 rules for multiple multipliers? Because wouldn't *3 indicate +200% Power Attack damage if x2 indicates +100%?

EDIT: So it would be Power Attack two-handed weapon rules +100% base Power Attack damage, Leap Attack two-handed rules +200% base Power Attack damage, and Headlong Rush adds 100% of total damage. So it would be:

([weapon damage] + (Power Attack damage x 4) + damage bonus) x 2
You need to be cautious around power attack and the various multipliers.  Weilding a weapon with two hands does NOT give you x2 the damage bonus that you'd normally get but instead changes the rate from 1:1 to 2:1; the effect may be the same be the mechanics are different.  If you double PA damage then you get +2 for every -1 attack taken with one handed weapon but +4 damage for every -1 taken with a two-hander.
Right, so using a two-handed weapon with Leap Attack gives 28 bonus damage if you take a -7 penalty to your attack bonus, right?
Right, so using a two-handed weapon with Leap Attack gives 28 bonus damage if you take a -7 penalty to your attack bonus, right?


With a two handed weapon and no particular special effects, then yes:
-7 attack: +14 damage, (+100% of 14 or +14 extra from Leap Attack) = 28.

Remember, though, accuracy matters. Without Shock Trooper, you'll need an ally to make sure that attack hits (such as a bard).

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Bleed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

I do have Shock Trooper. So before errata, Leap Attack modified Power Attack to a whopping 42 damage with a -7 penalty?!
I do have Shock Trooper. So before errata, Leap Attack modified Power Attack to a whopping 42 damage with a -7 penalty?!


You haven't given us any details about your build...

But did you notice that the very simple level 6 example from above can dish out expected damage close to what the average CR 6 monster has in HP? (That's weighted for critical hits and chances to miss.)

I suspect yours will be pretty similar.

And that's WITHOUT "ignoring the errata" to get obscene multipliers on Leap Attack. It's all post-errata Leap Attack. 

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Bleed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

I'm not ignoring errata anymore, I was simply curious about how broken the system was before.
Actually, banning Druids kinda makes sense.


I can kind of see why, but it strikes me as intolerant and kind of lazy. IMO. I'm not saying your DM is intolerant and lazy, just that banning Druids... well, anyway. I did once apply for a game where the DM said "no 'Big 5'". Only he included about 7 classes in the 'Big 5' (or is it Big 6?). I can see what he was going for, but it just seems odd.
 

I'm not ignoring errata anymore, I was simply curious about how broken the system was before.


I think that it's more a case that without the errata, it was not 100% clear how the system should have worked. It wasn't broken but it could have been interpreted in a broken way. Anyone who went by RAI would presumably not be using a broken system. This is me not looking at the exact wording, here, but then that's kind of the point. Rules-lawyering wording like that just to get something which was clearly not intended (*cough* Master Spellthief again *cough*) is just... well, it misses the point a bit, I think.

The errata was probably more like "yeah, this is what we meant," rather than "we're changing the rule so it's not broken".