Are we ready to have full orcs as a fully fleshed out PC race.

Lets say that humans retain the stat bonuses they have. In the descriptions some humans already have a tinge of other races in them already including a bit of orc. So a guy who puts his +2 into strength can reasonably say I'm part orc and I don' t think too many people will complain which leaves the question what to do about the half-orc in dnd next. I'm just having a hard time thinking of a way to make the half orc feel diffrent then a really strong human who may have some orc in him anyway. They get the rage mechanic that orcs get in the playtest but that doesn't seem too flavorful. I think they have done a decent job making the races feel diffrent so far but I think a half orc might be too constrained to being either the angry outsider or the muscley angry outsider. So why not go full orc instead of making half-orcs the result of two cultures they can focus on making orcs a bit more defined. Orcs in the fluff are destructive barbarians that maybe true for most orcs but adventuring orcs who are welling to work with other standard races are probaly not your standard orc anyway. But then again full orcs might still be too WOW.


Justification for orcs in the civilized world.

1. Obould Many-Arrows- He was a bit more foward thinking and managed to build a kingdom and make peace with other nations.


2. Orcs would make great pioneers in the rugged frontiers. Say your Empire and you just conquered some land. Turns out the land is tough and it's a pretty tough to sell your citizens that this very dangerous land is worth living in. Now you can go the
australian and send your convicts out there or send in your orcs. Have them swear loyalty to you and give them the support they need tools, supplies and have these tougher then normal pioneers turn that land into something useful to you. Now you have 2 other benifits. First you have orcs who are not trying to stea or wreak your territory and second you hopefully treated them nicely enough for a whole new generation of orcs to have a sense of patriotism and willingness to bring harm to your enemies. Or after they gain enough in numbers they can just say screw you and claim independence and wage a bloody guerrilla. Just because they can farm doesn't make them less orcky.


   
     
I'm not ready, no.

Danny

I am reminded of the movie Tropic Thunder...Everyone knows you don't go full orc...

But why not?

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

Orcs, minotaurs, trolls, trox, hobgoblins, goblins, bugbears, kobolds, half-orc, and human would make a much better line up for the PHB than the raditional list.
I don't have a problem with full orcs being character races.  Has it been done before by WoW?  Sure, and they did it pretty well.  However, just because the "Simpsons did it" (for those who don't get the South Park reference, it just refers to something that's already been done before) doesn't mean it's no longer viable.  Afterall, we're talking about a game that was entirely built on the tradition of "Tolkien did it."

Of course, making full orcs a PC race doesn't have to provoke changes in all the settings.  DMs can feel free to fit them in, or disallow them, as they wish.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

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Save the breasts.

Orcs, minotaurs, trolls, trox, hobgoblins, goblins, bugbears, kobolds, half-orc, and human would make a much better line up for the PHB than the raditional list.


While I agree with that, I think doing that would cause a LOT of people to flip out.  I just hope we don't have to wait too long for our non-traditional races.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Is a trox a troll cross bred with an ox or am I totally off on that one? But I do think a lot of people are ready for full orc players. But I wonder if they do become playable and probaly less randomly evil would they lose there charm.  Uruk hai are intimidating but Shrek less so.
There's more to half-orcs than just being the angry outsider, and I thought 4E did some good work on expanding them beyond it. I'd much rather if they kept half-orcs in and continued to explore their culture and identity like 4E did.

But I also think it's fine if they make a fully playable orc race. The more options, the better.
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Trox are a quikie race from the pathfinder race guide but the pic for them is so completely amazing That I decided to convert the concept into every game I play that can handle it.
I think the non-standard races should either have their own book, or should simply have a PC section for them in the monster book that they appear in.  Orcs are still a monster race, even though they can and do make fine PCs.
I played a scro PC in a Spelljammer campaign (for 2nd Edition).  They're basically militaristic orcs that really, really hate elves.  Heck, they even learn elven to intimidate their chosen foes.

Dragonstar, a futuristic spacefaring D&D 3e campaign setting (by a third-party publisher) had rules for full orc characters.  Never played it though.

Yeah, all-in-all, I'd say we're ready for full orcs as a PC race ;).
/\ Art
I think the non-standard races should either have their own book, or should simply have a PC section for them in the monster book that they appear in.  Orcs are still a monster race, even though they can and do make fine PCs.


If they're going to do them, they need to take their time and do them right.  None of that 4e minotaur crap, which spawned at least one forum version that people think was better but not more powerful.  If they do that, then they will deserve their own book, and I will buy that book.  I will buy the crap out of that book.  All night long.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

I think the non-standard races should either have their own book, or should simply have a PC section for them in the monster book that they appear in.  Orcs are still a monster race, even though they can and do make fine PCs.


If they're going to do them, they need to take their time and do them right.  None of that 4e minotaur crap, which spawned at least one forum version that people think was better but not more powerful.  If they do that, then they will deserve their own book, and I will buy that book.  I will buy the crap out of that book.  All night long.



I'm split.  I think the more common monster PC races should have their own books.  By that I mean goblinoids, orcs, etc.  The ones people love to play.  The less common ones that are still kinda sorta playable can be blurbs in the monster manuals.
Whether Orcs make sense as a main PC race depends a lot on what Orcs are like by default in Next. If Orcs are Always Chaotic Evil monstrous stupid violent deathmurder machines then it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and half-orcs can just continue to serve their normal function of allowing players to play an orcish race with a built-in reason to have a bit of humanity in it. If orcs are basically burly sickly-colored tribalistic humans with a cruel streak and jacked teeth, then they're much more natural as a PC race.

That said, I think that there's a bit too much silhouette overlap between orcs and half-orcs for both to be PC races unless they do some additional building on giving Half-orcs their own schtick, like has been done with half-elves over the years.* Having orcs as a PC race also kind of weakens the big traditional Half-orc character hook of dealing with being half-monster (or just simply monstrous, depending on your half-orc character origin). It's hard to have the same pathos about being diet orc if there's regular orcs in your adventuring party.

That's not to say that they couldn't carve out some kind of space for half-orcs. 4e did it a bit. You could sort of steal the 4e Goliath schtick and make them fiercely competitive, or play up a sort of Jekyll-and-Hyde angle where many half-orcs either struggle to keep their orc instincts under control or else behave in a hyper-civilized manner to fully keep those instincts under wraps.

*I incidentally absolutely love the idea that half-elves are often natural leaders who are energetic and charismatic and good at working with others. It takes them in a bit of a different direction and makes them more than diet elves, plus it's a silhouette that's not already "taken" among core races.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
Whether Orcs make sense as a main PC race depends a lot on what Orcs are like by default in Next. If Orcs are Always Chaotic Evil monstrous stupid violent deathmurder machines then it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and half-orcs can just continue to serve their normal function of allowing players to play an orcish race with a built-in reason to have a bit of humanity in it. If orcs are basically burly sickly-colored tribalistic humans with a cruel streak and jacked teeth, then they're much more natural as a PC race.



Well, to be fair, orcs have never always been CE.  When an alignment says CE for a race, it simply means that the majority of that race holds that alignment, but that you will still find the full range of alignments among their kind.  The good ones will tend to not survive for long, though. 

YES!!! The concept of intelligent humanoids not being pc races is just so outdated. I would accept full race blocks in the backs of monster manuals but I would really prefer Orcs at very least being in the PHB, half orc can be some random human subrace (if they keep subraces, which they probably will.) Give the full blooded warriors their due respect. 
 Tolkeinian Orcs... aka ugly twisted broken elves use the stats for ealves but ditch the fluff of beauty. An Orc with a personality strong enough to be become a hero wouldnt necessarily get the Charisma penalty the rest of them suffer for being broken spirits...ie easily manipulated by Sauron.
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Everything should be a playable race.



Everything!
I am really leaning in favor for the half-elf and half-orc being a sub race like the mountain/hil dwarf. Perhaps because my mind would be pretty blown by having a choice of two diffrent half-orcs. In 4e half-orcs were great even a little overpowered but I never got how half orcs were agile it never sat right with me but when you play a half-orc monk or barbarian you tend to keep quiet. But as far weaving orcs into the game world I think Skyrim did a pretty decent job of incorporating them. Yeah they ae scary looking but they mostly keep to themselves in there strongholds and if they do venture out its ussaully to serve in the army, do back breaking labor or work as well respected artisans. They kicked a lot of butt back in the day but things aren't looking to great for them now. A mixture of badass history and brutal culture with the unease of being refugees fleeing an adopted homeland.
Everything should be a playable race.



Everything!


Yes!

If it's intelligent, give us rules to play it as a pc!
I don't mind a full orc as a PC race.

That being said it wouldn't be one in my world. At least in a normal adventuring party. An orc would be in a party of kobolds, goblinoids, and other "dark" races. They wouldn't be in mixed company with "light" races.
I'm curious. What would you think if they did not but things like the orc in the PHB but they added a PC stat block to every monster in the MM that had an 8 or higher INT?
I would play an Orc if I was allowed to. Cause honestly they have been a staple in many games I have played. Whats to stop one orc from saying, "hey I like being a raider, bandit, murderer, and/or barbarian but really I would like to get paid for doing this. Or actually become a hero".

Honestly playing a mercenary Orc would be fine for me. They just have been tight casted as evil barbarians, like the huns.

In one of my homebrewed settings the players were going to meet a retired Orc on a farm, problem was going to be if orcs stop fighting they age drastically, the orc in question was only 5 years old, but looked 80.(In my game Orcs mature at 2 years old).
Ant Farm
i've never been a fan of monstrous races, either from a player's perspective or as a DM. more often than not, they end up being disruptive in nearly any setting, and they never get the same level of polish that a regular PC race gets.

That's not to say that i don't want them in the game though, i just don't want them killing half-orcs and taking their stuff. 
To me, an Orc PC would make more sense than a Dragonborn or Tiefling. Though given the choice I'd play a hobgoblin... I love the flavor of their culture.
 Tolkeinian Orcs... aka ugly twisted broken elves use the stats for ealves but ditch the fluff of beauty. An Orc with a personality strong enough to be become a hero wouldnt necessarily get the Charisma penalty the rest of them suffer for being broken spirits...ie easily manipulated by Sauron.



Once again, the Tolkien orcs were nowhere near equal to Tolkien elves.  They were not as fast.  They were not as agile.  They didn't have the gifts of far sight or other gifts of the elves.  They were just twisted mockeries that were not even stronger (until the Uruk-hai of Saruman).  All they had were numbers. 
I'm all for wierd PCs but something to keep in mind is that we should not expect the playable mind-flayer to have the same stats as the monster version. 
I'm all for wierd PCs but something to keep in mind is that we should not expect the playable mind-flayer to have the same stats as the monster version. 

I'd be cool with that.

This may sound weird . . . okay it is weird ;) . . . I've always wanted to play a mind flayer.  Prolly an unfullfiled wish from my old Spelljammer days.  That or it has something to do with tentacles .
/\ Art
It's simple normalization. 
The Minotaur or Mindflayer the usual D&D party murders is actually level 5 or 8 or so.  The ones Fred and Bob are playing have been dialed down to level one.

Everything from the Tarrasque to a wooden chair should be "playable".  Whether or not it's a good idea is for your DM to decide.
As long as they keep all the, to use a 2E term, Humanoids in a seperate book, I could care less what they choose to make playable. I can say yes or no in my game to anything so I have no problem with it.

I only make the "not in the core phb request" for simplicity sake. I just want a solid vanilla core so that I can play my striped down version of the game with out having to remove large chunks of the base book. It is far easier to add to the core from additional books like 2E did than to try to remove large chunks from the BRB.

You can have your untold number of different classes, numerous races, and the kitchen sink... I have no problem with it. I just ask to keep the base three simple for those that don't want all that.

**edit** I mean the base three books .. that didn't seem that clear to me. 
DMG pg 263 "No matter what a rule's source, a rule serves you, not the other way around."
I only make the "not in the core phb request" for simplicity sake.

Stick in the MM, if there's space.

As long as they keep all the, to use a 2E term, Humanoids in a seperate book, I could care less what they choose to make playable. I can say yes or no in my game to anything so I have no problem with it.

I only make the "not in the core phb request" for simplicity sake. I just want a solid vanilla core so that I can play my striped down version of the game with out having to remove large chunks of the base book. It is far easier to add to the core from additional books like 2E did than to try to remove large chunks from the BRB.

You can have your untold number of different classes, numerous races, and the kitchen sink... I have no problem with it. I just ask to keep the base three simple for those that don't want all that.

**edit** I mean the base three books .. that didn't seem that clear to me. 



I think to get the complete feel for everyone, so that the core books sell really well, they should include all the super basic stuff, plus a nice chunk of the stuff that is less tradition. Cause it is a lot easier to remove a race or class than it is to create one while waiting for the supplement book and then having to alter to the 'offical standard.' Part of this is solved by statblocks in the back of the MM though. 

Also Orcs are just as humanoid as Elves and more so than Halfings . I find it odd that they were excluded from the term back in the day when they are nearly the perfect example of the term. 

I don't want them putting race write ups in the monster manual if they're gonna be the kind of half-ass crap that was presented as race write ups in the 4e manuals.
Putting race writeups in the Monster Manual for 4e was not my favorite decision because even if they existed primarily for DM use, they were the only player-usable material in what was otherwise a book that non-DMs would only very rarely need to care about. The 3.5 MM was already bleedy, since basically any PC spellcaster had the potential to need material from there, but 4e handled summoning and polymorphing differently (and didn't really handle them at all at launch), so the MM reverted to being a DM's book - mostly. (Granted it was not a book that players needed for regular reference, but I still like it to be the case that when a book isn't primarily full of player options that it not contain any. Digital support makes this make less difference (since if they do randomly print two feats and a spell in the Villiage of Bumbleburg Setting Book then those show up in the digital material like normal), but in general books should be player books or DM books unless there's a really compelling reason.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
My real issue is that the race write ups in the 4e mms were awful, and while they did explicitly state that they were for NPCs primarily it got people thinking that abilities like oversized or warrior's surge were appropriate for actual PC races, not to mention when the Devs used them for reference on the half-orcs, gnolls, and minotaurs without bothering to make them PC appropriate.
I am ready to eliminate the half-orc and half-elfs. Personally it is a huge cognative disconnect that disparate species could spawn viable offspring, baring divine or magical intervention. It reminds me of Start Trek which was honestly a giant space orgy. All these people who evolved on isolated planets are able to have children with no genetic defects? Nope! Don't like it.

I am all for a small selection of non-traditional races and orc seems a good candidate. But I also believe it's a lot easier to start with the traditional races. If you have the option for the orc race in the PHB, one of your players will read about it and get their heart set on it and when you explain to them that it just won't work in this campaign they get bent out of shape and call you a petty dictator. In these cases presenting a basic assortment of choices is more desireable than adding a multitude of options that a DM is going to have to tell their players to ignore. Keep it simple.
A fully-fleshed out orc race would be perfect for me.  In my game world the so-called 'savage humanoids' have been at peace with the rest of the world for decades.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Not having to homebrew them is nice.  My home setting has them as a country folk that sometimes get in conflict with neighboring dwarf tribes and settlements.  Not evil at all, but some societies are very xenophobic and militaristic... hence why I don't want just half-orcs (They don't exist in my home setting)  So yes, official stats for full orcs would be great! 

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Some good pointers for the fellow hobbyist!:

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1st off: Hybrid children in startrek required advanced bio-technology to create. As a general rule they didn't just happen, and there were defects that cropped up because of it they just took care of it with said advanced bio-tech. This just wasn't something that people went into detail about until the later seasons of voyager.

2nd: including orcs in the core book would be no more or less restricting than including elves or dwarves. There's nothing special about the traditional races besides tradition, well that and they tend to be prettier than the non-traditional races.
No!
 
Are we ready to have full orcs as a fully fleshed out PC race?

Yes. I'd say that, if anything, they are overdue.
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Board Snippets
147048523 wrote:
"I don't like X, they should remove it." "I like X, they should keep it." "They should replace X with Y." "Anybody that likes X is dumb. Y is better." "Why don't they include both X and Y." "Yeah, everybody can be happy then!" "But I don't like X, they should remove it." "X really needs to be replaced with Y." "But they can include both X and Y." "But I don't like X, they need to remove it." "Remove X, I don't like it." Repeat. Obstinance?
56790678 wrote:
Until you've had an in-law tell you your choice of game was stupid, and just Warcraft on paper, and dumbed down for dumber players who can't handle a real RPG, you haven't lived. You haven't lived.
56902498 wrote:
Lady and gentlemen.... I present to you the Edition War without Contrition, the War of the Web, the Mighty Match-up! We're using standard edition war rules. No posts of substance. Do not read the other person's posts with comprehension. Make frequent comparison to video games, MMOs, and CCGs. Use the words "fallacy" and "straw man", incorrectly and often. Passive aggressiveness gets you extra points and asking misleading and inflammatory questions is mandatory. If you're getting tired, just declare victory and leave the thread. Wait for the buzzer... and.... One, two, three, four, I declare Edition War Five, six, seven eight, I use the web to Go!
57062508 wrote:
D&D should not return to the days of blindfolding the DM and players. No tips on encounter power? No mention of expected party roles? No true meaning of level due to different level charts or tiered classes? Please, let's not sacrifice clear, helpful rules guidelines in favour of catering to the delicate sensibilities of the few who have problems with the ascetics of anything other than what they are familiar with.
56760448 wrote:
Just a quick note on the MMORPG as an insult comparison... MMORPGs, raking in money by the dumptruck full. Many options, tons of fans across many audiences, massive resources allocated to development. TTRPGs, dying product. Squeaking out an existence that relys on low cost. Fans fit primarily into a few small demographics. R&D budgets small, often rushed to market and patched after deployment. You're not really making much of an argument when you compare something to a MMORPG and assume people think that means bad. Lets face it, they make the money, have the audience and the budget. We here on this board are fans of TTRPGs but lets not try to pretend none of us play MMORPGs.
90571711 wrote:
Adding options at the system level is good. Adding options at the table level is hard. Removing options at the system level is bad. Removing options at the table level is easy. This is not complicated.
57333888 wrote:
112760109 wrote:
56902838 wrote:
Something like Tactical Shift is more magical than martial healing.
Telling someone to move over a few feet is magical now? :| I weep for this generation.
Given the laziness and morbid obsesity amongst D&Ders, being able to convince someone to get on their feet, do some heavy exercise, and use their words to make them be healthier must seem magical.
158710691 wrote:
D&D definitely improves mental health; Just as long as you stay away from these forums ;)
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