## 9/3/2012 MM: "Return on Investment, Part 1"

18 posts / 0 new
wotc_monty
Joined Nov 2003
1706 Posts
This thread is for discussion of this week's Making Magic, which goes live Monday morning on magicthegathering.com.
dragon_nut
Joined Feb 2005
2118 Posts
That is most certainly a Commander. I approve.
Immature College Student (Also a Rules Advisor)
dux_is_me
Joined Jan 2006
437 Posts

Rule #1) Each set had to have each color represented twice.

Rule #2) Each set had to have some ally and some enemy guild combinations.

Rule #3) Any groups of four or three guilds that appeared together in Ravnica block could not all appear together again.

Once all these rules were thrown into a blender, there ended up being only two options.

These four rules are enough to determine what those two options were.

1. By rule #5, there must be two, and only two, Dissension guilds. Suppose those guilds were the Azorius and Simic. That makes two blue guilds. By rule #1, the remaining three guilds need to be two red, two black, one green and one white guild. However, whichever guilds you pick for green and white, you end up having to pick Rakdos to complete red and black, meaning all three Dissension guilds would appear in Return to Ravnica, which breaks rule #5.

2. That leaves only two combinations of Dissension guilds: Azorius/Rakdos, and Simic/Rakdos. In either of these combinations, there are only two possibilities for the other blue guild: Izzet and Dimir. Let's show that Dimir can't be used in either. Suppose you have Azorius/Dimir/Rakdos. There are two green, one white and one red guild remaining, which leaves only one option: Gruul/Selesnya. This means all five ally-colored guilds appear in Return to Ravnica, breaking rule #2.

3. Suppose instead it's Simic/Dimir/Rakdos. This leaves two white, one red and one green guild, which once again leaves a single option: Selesnya/Boros. However, this time there are no Guildpact guilds in the set, so all three of the Guildpact guilds would have to appear in Gatecrash, breaking rule #3.

4.  Thus, our two options become Azorius/Izzet/Rakdos and Simic/Izzet/Rakdos. In the first case, the remaining colors are two green, one white and one black, which translates to Selesnya/Golgari. In the other, the remaining colors are two white, one green and one black, meaning our guilds are Selesnya/Orzhov.

Choice #1: Azorius/Golgari/Izzet/Rakdos/Selesnya
Choice #2: Izzet/Orzhov/Rakdos/Selesnya/Simic

Both of these choices conform to all the rules. Particularly, rule #4 doesn't help to decide, since both choices have their share of fast and slow guilds. I guess Mark Rosewater just had to include that one to show that the process wasn't all abstract color decisions; though it's true that rule #2 pretty much guaranteed that there would be a balance between fast and slow, since most of the fast guilds were red, most of the slow guilds were black, and most of the guilds in the middle were white or green.
coien
Joined May 2011
154 Posts

Rule #1) Each set had to have each color represented twice.

Rule #2) Each set had to have some ally and some enemy guild combinations.

Rule #3) Any groups of four or three guilds that appeared together in Ravnica block could not all appear together again.

Once all these rules were thrown into a blender, there ended up being only two options.

These four rules are enough to determine what those two options were.

...

Both of these choices conform to all the rules. Particularly, rule #4 doesn't help to decide, since both choices have their share of fast and slow guilds. I guess Mark Rosewater just had to include that one to show that the process wasn't all abstract color decisions; though it's true that rule #2 pretty much guaranteed that there would be a balance between fast and slow, since most of the fast guilds were red, most of the slow guilds were black, and most of the guilds in the middle were white or green.

Congratulations on determining the minimum number of rules necessary to solve a logic puzzle, but it's quite possible that R&D didn't know that rule #4 was superfluous when they set out to decide the criteria for their choice.  I think you're assuming way too much deviousness on the part of MaRo.
dux_is_me
Joined Jan 2006
437 Posts
Pretty much. We wouldn't be Izzet if we didn't believe ourselves to be smarter than everyone else.  But you're right, the fact that the Limited environment needs to be balanced is never a trivial matter. It better be, since Prereleases are pretty much the only Magic I ever play, and I always do terribly whenever multicolored cards are involved.
Zoidberg
Joined Aug 2005
3042 Posts
Isperia! Wow! <3

And the first can tutor for the new one! :D

Much more impressive than the new Niv!

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

Senyuno
Joined Jun 2010
508 Posts
I like it. I like the idea that 6-drops don't immediately net you advantage-- you have to wait and give your opponent at least a chance to figure something out. I think once you reach 7-drop spot you should be allowed free advantage, like SoUthuun.
b-rawl
Joined Jun 2012
11 Posts
Did anyone else interpret the last sentence of the article as a possible forshadow? "Until then, may you enjoy revisiting a beloved land."
Joined Aug 2012
360 Posts
Did anyone else interpret the last sentence of the article as a possible forshadow? "Until then, may you enjoy revisiting a beloved land."

Probably just referring to being back in Ravnica.  Besides, the shocklands have already been spoiled - check out the Card Image Gallery.

My EDH decks:

Erebos ()

Damia ()

Ghave ()

b-rawl
Joined Jun 2012
11 Posts
Probably just referring to being back in Ravnica.  Besides, the shocklands have already been spoiled - check out the Card Image Gallery.

I just noticed that a few minutes after I made that post.

Mata_Hari
Joined Jul 2008
6922 Posts
NGL, for a sec I thought Ken was a really butch lady.
morticianjohn
Joined Jun 2006
2702 Posts
Isperia lost 2 toughness in her promotion to guild leader. I also miss all of the riddles that sphinxes used to have where you and/or the opponent had to make a choice. It's a mythic where you can do stupid things like "when this creature comes into play or attacks the opponent must name a card type and reveal the top card of his/her library. If the card is not of the type named you may remove a creature from play or draw a card"
Don't be too smart to have fun
Joined Aug 2003
1364 Posts
Isperia lost 2 toughness in her promotion to guild leader. I also miss all of the riddles that sphinxes used to have where you and/or the opponent had to make a choice. It's a mythic where you can do stupid things like "when this creature comes into play or attacks the opponent must name a card type and reveal the top card of his/her library. If the card is not of the type named you may remove a creature from play or draw a card"

No, no. Why should you ever have to make a painstaking decision about opportunity costs? (Disregarding the obvious opportunity cost of giving us, Wizards of the Coast LLC, our well-deserved money, of course. You're not even supposed to think about that decision.) Exile a creature an opponent controls AND draw a card. "And" is the hip new thing for kids these days.

Come to think about it, if they do call the card type correctly, what does that mean? They're seeing their own inevitable doom? Smack them for 15 damage. What, you say burn isn't white or blue? Good thing the expansion symbol makes it red enough to justify in the color pie!
EyeballFrog
Joined Mar 2012
1288 Posts
Isperia lost 2 toughness in her promotion to guild leader. I also miss all of the riddles that sphinxes used to have where you and/or the opponent had to make a choice. It's a mythic where you can do stupid things like "when this creature comes into play or attacks the opponent must name a card type and reveal the top card of his/her library. If the card is not of the type named you may remove a creature from play or draw a card"

I dunno, Isperia poses a pretty good riddle.  Is the damage I'll deal worth the extra cards?
morticianjohn
Joined Jun 2006
2702 Posts
Isperia lost 2 toughness in her promotion to guild leader. I also miss all of the riddles that sphinxes used to have where you and/or the opponent had to make a choice. It's a mythic where you can do stupid things like "when this creature comes into play or attacks the opponent must name a card type and reveal the top card of his/her library. If the card is not of the type named you may remove a creature from play or draw a card"

I dunno, Isperia poses a pretty good riddle.  Is the damage I'll deal worth the extra cards?

It's certainly better than the riddle that sphinx of the steel wind imposes but I do miss the mini games on cards like old isperia where you try to guess a card by name or type.
Don't be too smart to have fun
TobyornotToby
Joined Mar 2006
2526 Posts
Well it's a bit like how it's better for the game if not every dragon is breathing fire or every vampire is draining life.
morticianjohn
Joined Jun 2006
2702 Posts
Well it's a bit like how it's better for the game if not every dragon is breathing fire or every vampire is draining life.

Isperia isn't every sphinx. She's the guild leader the ultimate judge on ravnica. If there is going to be complexity in the set this is where it should go.... just my opinion considering where she's come from.

Probably it's just me since I loved and played with isperia extensively in the past. My first ever sealed event was a ravnica tournament pack and 2 dissention boosters which got isperia and pride of the clouds. This card doesn't feel like the isperia I know. Niv mizzet on the other hand changed but still seems true to form.
Don't be too smart to have fun
TobyornotToby
Joined Mar 2006
2526 Posts
That is true. But Azorius is all about bureaucracy. The playful nature of shinxes doesn't fit there as far as I can tell. If anything, the leader of the Izzet should've been a Sphinx (if Ravnica was made today for the first time, it probably would have been, now that Sphinxes are more established rather than just a test). So what I'm saying is that the original Isperia is the offender, not this one.

Other guilds got upgrades too, whether it's in overall theme, goals & beliefs or creature types used. Wizards is not afraid to change parts of the original Ravnica if they think it's for the better.