Updates to user's agreement

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Could somebody from wotc or affiliated post the changes that take place with any new user's agreement. I doubt most players take the time to read it over and over again. I would like to see a list what's new or changed.
Sean will likely be by to address this, but short version is that we added some language to address streaming policies.
To wit, the section authorizing streaming:

"THE GAME, THE GAME SERVICE AND THE SOFTWARE MAY USE THIRD PARTY WEBSITES AND TECHNOLOGIES TO RECORD OR STREAM GAMEPLAY OR CHAT DIALOGUE ("RECORDINGS"). WIZARDS DOES NOT OBJECT TO THE CREATION AND DISTRIBUTION OF RECORDINGS SO LONG AS SUCH RECORDINGS (A) DO NOT INCLUDE THIRD PARTY TRADING CARD GAMES, OR OTHER PRODUCTS OR SERVICES THAT ARE COMPETITIVE WITH WIZARDS PRODUCTS, (B) COMPLY WITH THE TERMS OF THIS LICENSE, (C) ARE NOT COMMERCIALLY SOLD OR DISTRIBUTED, AND (D) COMPLY WITH ALL NATIONAL, STATE AND LOCAL LAWS, RULES, AND REGULATIONS.  "

Magic and Magic Online Volunteer Community Lead. On Strike

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Unfortunately, VCLs do not currently have the tools necessary to take moderation actions directly. VCLs submit their actions to ORCs, who then actually perform the action. This processing can take between a few minutes and several hours, depending on how busy/attentive the ORCs are.

If you see something that needs VCL attention, please use this thread to make a request and a VCL will look at it as soon as possible. CoC violations should be reported to Customer Service using the "report post" button. Please do not disrupt the thread by making requests of either kind in-thread.

General MTGO FAQ

Yes, the Shuffler is Random!
The definitive thread on the Magic Online shuffler.

Magic Math Made Easy
Draw probabilities, Swiss results, Elo ratings and booster EV

Event EV Calculator
Calculate the EV for any event with a fixed number of rounds and prizes based on record

Dual means two. A duel is a battle between two people. Lands that make two colors of mana are dual lands. A normal Magic battle is a duel.
Thanks to PhoenixLAU for the [thread=1097559]awesome avatar[/thread]!
Quotables

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"While a picture is worth a thousand words, each lolcat actually produces a negative wordcount." -Ith "I think "Highly Informed Sarcasm" should be our Magic Online General motto." -Ith "Sorry, but this thread seems just like spam. TT is for off-topic discussion, not no-topic discussion." -WizO_Kwai_Chang "Stop that! If you're not careful, rational thinking may catch on!" -Sax "... the only word i see that fits is incompitant." -Mr44 (sic) "You know a thread is gonna be locked when it gets to the hexadecimal stage." -Gathion "It's a good gig" - Gleemax "I tell people often, if you guys want to rant, you've certainly got the right to (provided you obey CoC/ToS stuff), and I don't even really blame you. But if you see something you think needs changing a well thought-out, constructive post does more to make that happen." - Worth Wollpert
To wit, the section authorizing streaming:

"THE GAME, THE GAME SERVICE AND THE SOFTWARE MAY USE THIRD PARTY WEBSITES AND TECHNOLOGIES TO RECORD OR STREAM GAMEPLAY OR CHAT DIALOGUE ("RECORDINGS"). WIZARDS DOES NOT OBJECT TO THE CREATION AND DISTRIBUTION OF RECORDINGS SO LONG AS SUCH RECORDINGS (A) DO NOT INCLUDE THIRD PARTY TRADING CARD GAMES, OR OTHER PRODUCTS OR SERVICES THAT ARE COMPETITIVE WITH WIZARDS PRODUCTS, (B) COMPLY WITH THE TERMS OF THIS LICENSE, (C) ARE NOT COMMERCIALLY SOLD OR DISTRIBUTED, AND (D) COMPLY WITH ALL NATIONAL, STATE AND LOCAL LAWS, RULES, AND REGULATIONS.  "




You got it. Thanks bubba.

There isn't too much to add to Worth's post. Wording was added to specifically address recording and streaming gameplay and chat. The full Magic Online EULA can be read HERE.

 

Sean Gibbons

Associate Community Manager

Official MTG Twitter: @Wizards_Magic Official MTGO Twitter: @MagicOnline

Disclaimer: I did not look for additional changes. I just grabbed the streaming section.

Magic and Magic Online Volunteer Community Lead. On Strike

I'm trying to make my official VCL posts in purple.

You posted saying my thread was moved/locked but nothing happened.


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Unfortunately, VCLs do not currently have the tools necessary to take moderation actions directly. VCLs submit their actions to ORCs, who then actually perform the action. This processing can take between a few minutes and several hours, depending on how busy/attentive the ORCs are.

If you see something that needs VCL attention, please use this thread to make a request and a VCL will look at it as soon as possible. CoC violations should be reported to Customer Service using the "report post" button. Please do not disrupt the thread by making requests of either kind in-thread.

General MTGO FAQ

Yes, the Shuffler is Random!
The definitive thread on the Magic Online shuffler.

Magic Math Made Easy
Draw probabilities, Swiss results, Elo ratings and booster EV

Event EV Calculator
Calculate the EV for any event with a fixed number of rounds and prizes based on record

Dual means two. A duel is a battle between two people. Lands that make two colors of mana are dual lands. A normal Magic battle is a duel.
Thanks to PhoenixLAU for the [thread=1097559]awesome avatar[/thread]!
Quotables

Show
"While a picture is worth a thousand words, each lolcat actually produces a negative wordcount." -Ith "I think "Highly Informed Sarcasm" should be our Magic Online General motto." -Ith "Sorry, but this thread seems just like spam. TT is for off-topic discussion, not no-topic discussion." -WizO_Kwai_Chang "Stop that! If you're not careful, rational thinking may catch on!" -Sax "... the only word i see that fits is incompitant." -Mr44 (sic) "You know a thread is gonna be locked when it gets to the hexadecimal stage." -Gathion "It's a good gig" - Gleemax "I tell people often, if you guys want to rant, you've certainly got the right to (provided you obey CoC/ToS stuff), and I don't even really blame you. But if you see something you think needs changing a well thought-out, constructive post does more to make that happen." - Worth Wollpert
(C) ARE NOT COMMERCIALLY SOLD OR DISTRIBUTED



How does this work with magic sites that require paymant to view (example: SCG)?
I'm glad to finally have this in writing since I think streaming is fantastic. You failed to cover the subject of outside assistance, though. Does WOTC view it as acceptable to have people offering assistance to a player during sanctioned matches?

For instance, if a player (let's say Cedric Phillips) is playing Bant Pod, and isn't sure what to do, can he ask the people watching his stream what play he should make? Are they allowed to tell him? Is he allowed to then make that play, and win the game purely due to how much better that play is than what he was going to do?

How about we take another player (let's say AJ Sacher) who is playing in a PTQ with an unfamiliar deck. He asks the crowd for sideboarding advice, since some people watching know the deck and matchup very well. He receives said advice, and the cards he then boards in are integral in winning the match. Do you guys view this as okay?

I'd really like to receive an answer in regards to this. Thanks in advance!

I'd personally love to see streaming change to where players do not interact with the crowd during the game. My hope is that WOTC pushes things in that direction.
I'm glad to finally have this in writing since I think streaming is fantastic. You failed to cover the subject of outside assistance, though. Does WOTC view it as acceptable to have people offering assistance to a player during sanctioned matches?

For instance, if a player (let's say Cedric Phillips) is playing Bant Pod, and isn't sure what to do, can he ask the people watching his stream what play he should make? Are they allowed to tell him? Is he allowed to then make that play, and win the game purely due to how much better that play is than what he was going to do?

How about we take another player (let's say AJ Sacher), who is playing in a PTQ with an unfamiliar deck. He asks the crowd for sideboarding advice since some people watching know the deck and matchup very well. He receives said advice, and the cards he then boards in are integral in winning the match. Do you guys view this as okay?

I'd really like to receive an answer in regards to this. Thanks in advance!

I'd personally love to see streaming change to where players do not interact with the crowd during the game. My hope is that WOTC pushes things in that direction.


AFAIK, outside assistance would still violate the Code of Conduct, which is a separate document.

Magic and Magic Online Volunteer Community Lead. On Strike

I'm trying to make my official VCL posts in purple.

You posted saying my thread was moved/locked but nothing happened.


Show
Unfortunately, VCLs do not currently have the tools necessary to take moderation actions directly. VCLs submit their actions to ORCs, who then actually perform the action. This processing can take between a few minutes and several hours, depending on how busy/attentive the ORCs are.

If you see something that needs VCL attention, please use this thread to make a request and a VCL will look at it as soon as possible. CoC violations should be reported to Customer Service using the "report post" button. Please do not disrupt the thread by making requests of either kind in-thread.

General MTGO FAQ

Yes, the Shuffler is Random!
The definitive thread on the Magic Online shuffler.

Magic Math Made Easy
Draw probabilities, Swiss results, Elo ratings and booster EV

Event EV Calculator
Calculate the EV for any event with a fixed number of rounds and prizes based on record

Dual means two. A duel is a battle between two people. Lands that make two colors of mana are dual lands. A normal Magic battle is a duel.
Thanks to PhoenixLAU for the [thread=1097559]awesome avatar[/thread]!
Quotables

Show
"While a picture is worth a thousand words, each lolcat actually produces a negative wordcount." -Ith "I think "Highly Informed Sarcasm" should be our Magic Online General motto." -Ith "Sorry, but this thread seems just like spam. TT is for off-topic discussion, not no-topic discussion." -WizO_Kwai_Chang "Stop that! If you're not careful, rational thinking may catch on!" -Sax "... the only word i see that fits is incompitant." -Mr44 (sic) "You know a thread is gonna be locked when it gets to the hexadecimal stage." -Gathion "It's a good gig" - Gleemax "I tell people often, if you guys want to rant, you've certainly got the right to (provided you obey CoC/ToS stuff), and I don't even really blame you. But if you see something you think needs changing a well thought-out, constructive post does more to make that happen." - Worth Wollpert
I'm glad to finally have this in writing since I think streaming is fantastic. You failed to cover the subject of outside assistance, though. Does WOTC view it as acceptable to have people offering assistance to a player during sanctioned matches?

For instance, if a player (let's say Cedric Phillips) is playing Bant Pod, and isn't sure what to do, can he ask the people watching his stream what play he should make? Are they allowed to tell him? Is he allowed to then make that play, and win the game purely due to how much better that play is than what he was going to do?

How about we take another player (let's say AJ Sacher) who is playing in a PTQ with an unfamiliar deck. He asks the crowd for sideboarding advice, since some people watching know the deck and matchup very well. He receives said advice, and the cards he then boards in are integral in winning the match. Do you guys view this as okay?

I'd really like to receive an answer in regards to this. Thanks in advance!

I'd personally love to see streaming change to where players do not interact with the crowd during the game. My hope is that WOTC pushes things in that direction.


Try reading the chat for any popular stream for ten minutes, and you'll be a lot less concerned about this.
Try reading the chat for any popular stream for ten minutes, and you'll be a lot less concerned about this.



I don't become less concerned about outside assistance because most of the people offering advice are terrible at Magic. I don't become less concerned about deck stacking because most people don't have the skill to make it work. I don't become less concerned about someone shooting a gun at me because most people have bad aim and will probably miss. Even if only the truly awful were doing these things, I'd still be against them. Regardless, you will in fact often see MTG professionals offering advice in streams. That does not make me less concerned.
I'm glad to finally have this in writing since I think streaming is fantastic. You failed to cover the subject of outside assistance, though. Does WOTC view it as acceptable to have people offering assistance to a player during sanctioned matches?

For instance, if a player (let's say Cedric Phillips) is playing Bant Pod, and isn't sure what to do, can he ask the people watching his stream what play he should make? Are they allowed to tell him? Is he allowed to then make that play, and win the game purely due to how much better that play is than what he was going to do?

How about we take another player (let's say AJ Sacher) who is playing in a PTQ with an unfamiliar deck. He asks the crowd for sideboarding advice, since some people watching know the deck and matchup very well. He receives said advice, and the cards he then boards in are integral in winning the match. Do you guys view this as okay?

I'd really like to receive an answer in regards to this. Thanks in advance!

I'd personally love to see streaming change to where players do not interact with the crowd during the game. My hope is that WOTC pushes things in that direction.



As Bubba said, the Code of Conduct still applies to any use of the game. That includes cheating and unsportsmanlike behaviour.


Sean Gibbons

Associate Community Manager

Official MTG Twitter: @Wizards_Magic Official MTGO Twitter: @MagicOnline


As Bubba said, the Code of Conduct still applies to any use of the game. That includes cheating and unsportsmanlike behaviour.



Is there any chance we can get a clear, official yes or no as to whether outside assistance of this sort is allowed? The COC is not nearly clear enough to eliminate confusion on this subject. I've seen arguments quoting the COC that defend each side of this question.
I'm glad to finally have this in writing since I think streaming is fantastic. You failed to cover the subject of outside assistance, though. Does WOTC view it as acceptable to have people offering assistance to a player during sanctioned matches?

For instance, if a player (let's say Cedric Phillips) is playing Bant Pod, and isn't sure what to do, can he ask the people watching his stream what play he should make? Are they allowed to tell him? Is he allowed to then make that play, and win the game purely due to how much better that play is than what he was going to do?

How about we take another player (let's say AJ Sacher) who is playing in a PTQ with an unfamiliar deck. He asks the crowd for sideboarding advice, since some people watching know the deck and matchup very well. He receives said advice, and the cards he then boards in are integral in winning the match. Do you guys view this as okay?

I'd really like to receive an answer in regards to this. Thanks in advance!

I'd personally love to see streaming change to where players do not interact with the crowd during the game. My hope is that WOTC pushes things in that direction.



As Bubba said, the Code of Conduct still applies to any use of the game. That includes cheating and unsportsmanlike behaviour.






So can Kibler still advertise his other games in his streams?  Also what if someone just has an advertising service picked that selects ads for you and it just happens to advertise another game during your stream?  

PureMTGO.com
Cape Fear Games located in Wilmington, NC. Get 20% extra MTGO credit for your paper cards.

As Bubba said, the Code of Conduct still applies to any use of the game. That includes cheating and unsportsmanlike behaviour.



Is there any chance we can get a clear, official yes or no as to whether outside assistance of this sort is allowed? The COC is not nearly clear enough to eliminate confusion on this subject. I've seen arguments quoting the COC that defend each side of this question.



I'd really like to know whether this is allowed. How would I go about receiving a public answer to this question? This is an incredibly important issue due to it being something that is both illegal in paper Magic (for obvious reasons) and increasingly common online. Like I've said, I have not seen a single streamer that does not receive this sort of outside assistance constantly. Please, someone from WOTC, let me know if this is considered acceptable, or at least tell me who I need to ask to find out.
The MTGO User Agreement and the Code of Conduct are your guides for accepted Magic Online behavior. If you think that someone is not abiding by those two governing documents, you are more than welcome to report them to our Game Support team for investigation.
The MTGO User Agreement and the Code of Conduct are your guides for accepted Magic Online behavior. If you think that someone is not abiding by those two governing documents, you are more than welcome to report them to our Game Support team for investigation.



As I've said, the COC is not nearly clear enough to answer this question. That's why I'm asking an actual human from WOTC to answer the question. Could you do so? I imagine at least one WOTC employee should be able to say what is or isn't against the rules, so if you can't, please point me toward someone who can.
The MTGO User Agreement and the Code of Conduct are your guides for accepted Magic Online behavior. If you think that someone is not abiding by those two governing documents, you are more than welcome to report them to our Game Support team for investigation.



As I've said, the COC is not nearly clear enough to answer this question. That's why I'm asking an actual human from WOTC to answer the question. Could you do so? I imagine at least one WOTC employee should be able to say what is or isn't against the rules, so if you can't, please point me toward someone who can.


I'd agree with this. While I understand the CoC is intentionally and necessarily vague, direct questions of "is this allowed?" that aren't the user trying to find/push the boundary really should be answered. If Tier-1 isn't able to make those decisions, there needs to be a mechanism to kick it up as far as it needs to go to get a definitive answer, and set policy if necessary.

Magic and Magic Online Volunteer Community Lead. On Strike

I'm trying to make my official VCL posts in purple.

You posted saying my thread was moved/locked but nothing happened.


Show
Unfortunately, VCLs do not currently have the tools necessary to take moderation actions directly. VCLs submit their actions to ORCs, who then actually perform the action. This processing can take between a few minutes and several hours, depending on how busy/attentive the ORCs are.

If you see something that needs VCL attention, please use this thread to make a request and a VCL will look at it as soon as possible. CoC violations should be reported to Customer Service using the "report post" button. Please do not disrupt the thread by making requests of either kind in-thread.

General MTGO FAQ

Yes, the Shuffler is Random!
The definitive thread on the Magic Online shuffler.

Magic Math Made Easy
Draw probabilities, Swiss results, Elo ratings and booster EV

Event EV Calculator
Calculate the EV for any event with a fixed number of rounds and prizes based on record

Dual means two. A duel is a battle between two people. Lands that make two colors of mana are dual lands. A normal Magic battle is a duel.
Thanks to PhoenixLAU for the [thread=1097559]awesome avatar[/thread]!
Quotables

Show
"While a picture is worth a thousand words, each lolcat actually produces a negative wordcount." -Ith "I think "Highly Informed Sarcasm" should be our Magic Online General motto." -Ith "Sorry, but this thread seems just like spam. TT is for off-topic discussion, not no-topic discussion." -WizO_Kwai_Chang "Stop that! If you're not careful, rational thinking may catch on!" -Sax "... the only word i see that fits is incompitant." -Mr44 (sic) "You know a thread is gonna be locked when it gets to the hexadecimal stage." -Gathion "It's a good gig" - Gleemax "I tell people often, if you guys want to rant, you've certainly got the right to (provided you obey CoC/ToS stuff), and I don't even really blame you. But if you see something you think needs changing a well thought-out, constructive post does more to make that happen." - Worth Wollpert
I'd agree with this. While I understand the CoC is intentionally and necessarily vague, direct questions of "is this allowed?" that aren't the user trying to find/push the boundary really should be answered. If Tier-1 isn't able to make those decisions, there needs to be a mechanism to kick it up as far as it needs to go to get a definitive answer, and set policy if necessary.



There is a mechanism to kick it up the chain. If you think someone is not following the CoC or User Agreement, report them to Game Support using the link I provided making sure to provide as much information as possible. Game Support reviews the issues and escalates as necessary. If this escalation results in policy changes, the CoC or User Agreement will be modified to reflect those changes.

Unfortunately, like most questions that deal with conduct issues, this is not a question you are going to get a direct answer to, regardless of how high up the chain you go.   
I'd agree with this. While I understand the CoC is intentionally and necessarily vague, direct questions of "is this allowed?" that aren't the user trying to find/push the boundary really should be answered. If Tier-1 isn't able to make those decisions, there needs to be a mechanism to kick it up as far as it needs to go to get a definitive answer, and set policy if necessary.



There is a mechanism to kick it up the chain. If you think someone is not following the CoC or User Agreement, report them to Game Support using the link I provided making sure to provide as much information as possible. Game Support reviews the issues and escalates as necessary. If this escalation results in policy changes, the CoC or User Agreement will be modified to reflect those changes.

Unfortunately, like most questions that deal with conduct issues, this is not a question you are going to get a direct answer to, regardless of how high up the chain you go.   



That is an incredibly worthless system. Are there any plans to change it to one that is not so incredibly worthless? That'd be great, and I'll be the first in line to offer my appreciation.

I'm a big fan of rules. When your rules are so vague as to be nonexistent, there's really no point in having them in the first place. As an example, the current rule is essentially "don't do bad things." What's a bad thing? Who knows? You're certainly not going to tell us! Are we seriously supposed to take the time to file a report every time we see something that may conceivably be wrong just on the off chance that it is? We won't even find out if we were right! Wouldn't it be easier, as well as much less idiotic, to simply say whether VERY SPECIFIC ACTS are against the rules?

I've been playing Magic since '93. It's a game with some pretty fantastic rules that are set in (occasionally changing) stone. If I want to know whether something is against said rules, I can and will find out in very short order. What, exactly, is so different about playing online that you can't even vocalize exactly what constitutes foul play?

Honestly, I'm incredibly disappointed in Wizards about this. I'm aware that you likely don't care in the slightest about my disappointment, but I still think you should know. Bad form, guys.
I think the problem is not if it's ok to get outside assistance but how to regulate it. If you report someone they will look into it but they probably won't go by themself to find people that do this.
I think the problem is not if it's ok to get outside assistance but how to regulate it. If you report someone they will look into it but they probably won't go by themself to find people that do this.



I'd say the problem actually is their apparent endorsement of outside assistance. I've seen Wizards employees in the chats of various streams. Admittedly, that doesn't actually mean the rules of MTGO are okay with giving or receiving outside assistance, and that's why I've asked this question. The complete refusal to answer the question combined with the complete lack of action to stop such extremely blatant unfairness is pretty damning, however.

My view at this point, which I think is very reasonable, is that they are okay with outside assistance (or at the very least are not willing to stop it), but refuse to admit this due to how it would make them look.
I think the problem is not if it's ok to get outside assistance but how to regulate it. If you report someone they will look into it but they probably won't go by themself to find people that do this.



I'd say the problem actually is their apparent endorsement of outside assistance. I've seen Wizards employees in the chats of various streams. Admittedly, that doesn't actually mean the rules of MTGO are okay with giving or receiving outside assistance, and that's why I've asked this question. The complete refusal to answer the question combined with the complete lack of action to stop such extremely blatant unfairness is pretty damning, however.

My view at this point, which I think is very reasonable, is that they are okay with outside assistance (or at the very least are not willing to stop it), but refuse to admit this due to how it would make them look.



More likely they want to privately evaluate on a case-by-case basis.

Which is terrifying for a user, as some will likely get the boot for it and others not and we aren't going to recieve any instruction as to what constitutes bannable and what is fine.

It also allows for preferential treatement to be given to favoured players.  So while what Cedric Philips did might get you a ban, Cedric is someone they want to show off so they might be more inclined to let it slide.
DCI Certified Level 2 Judge
I think the problem is not if it's ok to get outside assistance but how to regulate it. If you report someone they will look into it but they probably won't go by themself to find people that do this.



I'd say the problem actually is their apparent endorsement of outside assistance. I've seen Wizards employees in the chats of various streams. Admittedly, that doesn't actually mean the rules of MTGO are okay with giving or receiving outside assistance, and that's why I've asked this question. The complete refusal to answer the question combined with the complete lack of action to stop such extremely blatant unfairness is pretty damning, however.

My view at this point, which I think is very reasonable, is that they are okay with outside assistance (or at the very least are not willing to stop it), but refuse to admit this due to how it would make them look.



I think your view is a bit dimmer than need be here. It has already been stated in multiple cases that WOTC does not discuss conduct issues for legal reasons. In conjunction with what Chris told us here that says to me that the hands of WOTCs individual employees are tied from the mail room clerks to the big bosses. In order to change policy with regards to disclosure they may have to do go through some pretty insane legal hoops.

This is not I think unusual for corporate culture and while I agree that it would be much nicer for all concerned to have some concrete no-nonsense ground rules written out in plain English the rule of thumb of "use your common sense" seems to apply here.

Winter.Wolf (ugh at this new forum with the ridiculous double login)

I think the problem is not if it's ok to get outside assistance but how to regulate it. If you report someone they will look into it but they probably won't go by themself to find people that do this.



I'd say the problem actually is their apparent endorsement of outside assistance. I've seen Wizards employees in the chats of various streams. Admittedly, that doesn't actually mean the rules of MTGO are okay with giving or receiving outside assistance, and that's why I've asked this question. The complete refusal to answer the question combined with the complete lack of action to stop such extremely blatant unfairness is pretty damning, however.

My view at this point, which I think is very reasonable, is that they are okay with outside assistance (or at the very least are not willing to stop it), but refuse to admit this due to how it would make them look.



I think your view is a bit dimmer than need be here. It has already been stated in multiple cases that WOTC does not discuss conduct issues for legal reasons. In conjunction with what Chris told us here that says to me that the hands of WOTCs individual employees are tied from the mail room clerks to the big bosses. In order to change policy with regards to disclosure they may have to do go through some pretty insane legal hoops.

This is not I think unusual for corporate culture and while I agree that it would be much nicer for all concerned to have some concrete no-nonsense ground rules written out in plain English the rule of thumb of "use your common sense" seems to apply here.



You'll find plenty of concrete rules regarding cheating and behavior in general for various online games. I'm also fairly certain that what is not discussed for legal reasons is how a user was punished, not what behavior is against the rules. It wouldn't make any sense to be unable to post rules for legal reasons. That sounds more like incredibly moronic policy than fear of lawsuits. I'm not saying it's impossible for someone to sue Wizards because they post the rule "You can't receive outside assistance during matches," but would they seriously not post rules due to a potential lawsuit that's obviously incredibly frivolous and unlikely to be filed? I doubt it.

The problem with having people use their common sense is that you'll get a huge variety of answers, none of which necessarily match WOTC's view. I view this act as blatant cheating that should not be allowed in tournaments, which unsurprisingly is how it's viewed in paper Magic. My common sense also tells me that what's cheating offline should also be cheating online. This does not appear to be the case for WOTC. If it is the case, Wizards is particularly inept at both making this policy known and at punishing the cheaters. That could very well be because the cheaters are Brian Kibler, Sam Black, Brad Nelson, Cedric Phillips, and other pros. I honestly don't know, and Wizards apparently sees no need to tell anyone. It's ridiculous, damaging to the game, and incredibly bad form in general.
So while what Cedric Philips did might get you a ban, Cedric is someone they want to show off so they might be more inclined to let it slide.




Can someone fill me in on what he did that was questionable?  

PureMTGO.com
Cape Fear Games located in Wilmington, NC. Get 20% extra MTGO credit for your paper cards.
So while what Cedric Philips did might get you a ban, Cedric is someone they want to show off so they might be more inclined to let it slide.




Can someone fill me in on what he did that was questionable?  






This is just a guess, but I would assume he asked for help (game decision or sideboarding) during an event (perhaps even a PTQ) from his stream and recieved an answer which he used.

Again, just a guess, but from what people have said, it sounds like this kind of thing happened.

My forever unfinished blog of the 2010 MTGO Community Cup: if you're ever bored...
So while what Cedric Philips did might get you a ban, Cedric is someone they want to show off so they might be more inclined to let it slide.




Can someone fill me in on what he did that was questionable?  






This is just a guess, but I would assume he asked for help (game decision or sideboarding) during an event (perhaps even a PTQ) from his stream and recieved an answer which he used.

Again, just a guess, but from what people have said, it sounds like this kind of thing happened.



Yes, he asks for and receives outside assistance constantly while he streams. I'm pretty sure he's the worst for this by a large margin, since he asks the crowd what he should do constantly while picking cards during drafting, while playing, and while sideboarding. It's clear from what he says that a significant percentage of his actions on MTGO are purely decided on by other people. You don't play against Cedric Phillips online; you play against Cedric & Friends.

As an update, I'm taking a break from MTGO until this is resolved. Again, I'm sure WOTC doesn't care about one guy, but I'll log in again after they make their position on this type of outside assistance clear. Right now it looks like I simply won't be logging in again, which maybe means watching more anime? Seems alright, I guess.
As an update, I'm taking a break from MTGO until this is resolved. Again, I'm sure WOTC doesn't care about one guy, but I'll log in again after they make their position on this type of outside assistance clear.

Do you just want a "resolution", or are you only interested in a particular resolution?
As an update, I'm taking a break from MTGO until this is resolved. Again, I'm sure WOTC doesn't care about one guy, but I'll log in again after they make their position on this type of outside assistance clear.

Do you just want a "resolution", or are you only interested in a particular resolution?



I'd prefer WOTC to come down on the anti-cheating side, but I'll accept any resolution that involves them giving important information to users. I definitely won't play any sanctioned events if they say they endorse 1v100 games, though. The current method of saying "there's an answer, but we're not telling you what it is" is ridiculously stupid enough that I'm fine simply avoiding the company entirely.
As an update, I'm taking a break from MTGO until this is resolved. Again, I'm sure WOTC doesn't care about one guy, but I'll log in again after they make their position on this type of outside assistance clear.

Do you just want a "resolution", or are you only interested in a particular resolution?



I'd prefer WOTC to come down on the anti-cheating side, but I'll accept any resolution that involves them giving important information to users. I definitely won't play any sanctioned events if they say they endorse 1v100 games, though. The current method of saying "there's an answer, but we're not telling you what it is" is ridiculously stupid enough that I'm fine simply avoiding the company entirely.



Not to add fuel to your fire but my opinion great differs from yours.  My feeling from your posts is this is personal for you. That you are only going to be satisfied when all the pros you named are tarred and feathered and hung on stocks in the virtual town square for you and all who care to throw rotten tomatoes. However there are many people who probably see the same things you do and come to very different conclusions. Such as Cedric and the others streaming are probably more able to do magic expertly in their sleep than 99% of us and any value gotten from outside advice is diluted by the very public nature of it.

Not to say that what's going on is right but I do not believe anyone streaming is doing so in order to cheat. Even inadvertent cheating if they realized it would probably shame them to no end. I suspect instead they feel they are giving a service to those of us who are not expert players. They are pulling a Fisher (ala Godot's old draft articles) and asking us if we can solve the puzzle even though they know the answers anyway.

I am convinced that cheaters are scum in not just one endeavor but in all they put their hands to. None of the people whom I know that stream are in my opinion scum. Cheaters definitely don't advertise the fact and I am positive that if Wizards felt there was cheating going on they would do whatever they could to end it or make it unaffordable to do so.

My 2 cents anyway. /end rosecoloredglassesspeach.

Winter.Wolf (ugh at this new forum with the ridiculous double login)

Not to add fuel to your fire but my opinion great differs from yours.  My feeling from your posts is this is personal for you. That you are only going to be satisfied when all the pros you named are tarred and feathered and hung on stocks in the virtual town square for you and all who care to throw rotten tomatoes.



Your perception differs from reality to a crazy extent. I'm quite against cheating. What is going on is cheating. I would like to see Wizards tell people to stop. At no point did I say, or even insinuate, that people doing this now should be "tarred and feathered" and so on (which is such a ridiculous exaggeration of a position that I honestly have no clue why you imagine I believe it).

I think Wizards should tell people to stop giving and receiving outside assistance. If people continue to do this afterwards, they should then be punished. At the moment there's not even a rule against this behaviour, even though it may or may not be covered under the COC (because, honestly, who the hell can tell what that thing covers?).

However there are many people who probably see the same things you do and come to very different conclusions.



I'm sure they see things differently than the crazy interpretation of my view you have. Amazingly enough, I don't see things that way either.

Such as Cedric and the others streaming are probably more able to do magic expertly in their sleep than 99% of us and any value gotten from outside advice is diluted by the very public nature of it.



Your understanding of skill in Magic is off by an incredible degree. I've played in PTs, had a limited rating consistently over 2000 until they got rid of it, and am overall a very good Magic player. I make plenty of mistakes and have huge holes in my understanding of the game. If you watch any pro play, you'll see the same thing with them. There's simply too much to follow in Magic overall and even in individual games for people to be as good as you believe they are. I'm not sure if you've actually watched any streams, but you should give it a shot. You'll see exactly how often good Magic players are uncertain about which possible play is correct.

Not to say that what's going on is right but I do not believe anyone streaming is doing so in order to cheat.



I don't either. My guess is that the possibility that they're cheating never even crossed their minds. People have some weird belief that everything is okay if they do it on the Internet. I don't understand this, but it seems to be what's going on here. None of those players would even consider doing this in a paper tourney, but online they never considered not doing it, even though it's the exact same thing. Humans are stupid like that. We just don't think well.

Even inadvertent cheating if they realized it would probably shame them to no end. I suspect instead they feel they are giving a service to those of us who are not expert players. They are pulling a Fisher (ala Godot's old draft articles) and asking us if we can solve the puzzle even though they know the answers anyway.



I don't know why any particular Magic players stream, but I also don't consider it relevant in the slightest. On the puzzle part, again, you are vastly overestimating the abilities of Magic pros.

I am convinced that cheaters are scum in not just one endeavor but in all they put their hands to.



This is incredibly wrong. Do you remember how everyone who knew Jeffrey Dahmer thought he was a great guy? That's because he was a great guy, as long as he wasn't killing or eating you. Magic cheaters are like Jeffrey Dahmer in that way, but they use cards to cheat instead of cub scouts to eat. Your idea of cheaters is unrealistic. I'm not aware of anyone who is pure garbage outside of works of fiction.

None of the people whom I know that stream are in my opinion scum.



Almost all that you know about these people is that they play Magic, or in rare cases a tiny bit of trivia (such as the fact that Michael Jacobs likes One Piece (as he should), or that Sam Black is vegetarian (so close to vegan, Sam; get there)). If you're judging their overall worth as human beings from that, your criteria for judgment is sorely lacking.

Cheaters definitely don't advertise the fact and I am positive that if Wizards felt there was cheating going on they would do whatever they could to end it or make it unaffordable to do so.



That's why I started this thread. There's an activity that in paper in cheating. Right now it's occurring constantly online, and people are streaming it live and advertising that they do it. Wizards, who in the paper game has rules and penalties written to stop this, is doing absolutely nothing about it online, which amazingly enough includes even talking about it. It's a ridiculous situation, and another example of how people imagine that an action being performed in an identical way online somehow makes it an entirely different action.
brilk, I can understand your wish for paper and online Magic to align as much as possible, but that's simply not the reality. MTG and MTGO have different rules. In particular, the MTG Tournament Rules and the Infraction Procedure Guide are not applicable to MTGO.



I've responded to the exact same arguments you present on various sites and in various threads. I guess this isn't one of them, so I'll go over certain points you make again.

You say that rules regarding this specific act are not applicable to MTGO. Why not? I understand that the document does not specifically say that it applies to MTGO, but what exactly is preventing the rule from applying? The act is the exact same in both paper and on MTGO. If one act deserves punishment, why does the other not? It's the exact same act and it gives players the exact same unfair advantage over their opponents, after all. You say that the rules for paper and online Magic aligning on this is not the reality. Again, why not? It's the exact same act in both instances. Why would the reality of punishing offenders be different?

[...] COC[...]



I'm well aware of the useless of the COC as a document. That's the root of this problem. Quoting the uselessness of said document does nothing to further your argument or detract from mine. Yes, the COC sucks. Yes, it says nothing clear about this. Yes, they should remedy that problem. What exactly is the point of having a document that says nothing? They should just leave the damn thing blank if they don't care to share any information with it.

 If anything, streaming while providing commentary reduces your attention, and opens yourself up to being "ghosted" by your opponents.



This is a terrible argument. The fact that some people might not be able to use their unfair advantage without screwing up does not make it okay for them to gain an unfair advantage. The fact that sometimes a person gaining an unfair advantage in this way will be revealing their hand to their opponent does not make it okay for them to gain an unfair advantage.

Given how you feel about the topic, I suggest to get a list of active streamers from twitch as well as the starcitygames streams hub. Make sure to not only include the big name players for fairness sake. Furthermore, almost every site that publishes MTGO videos has some footage of two or more players cooperating during a draft tournament, either from being in the same room or thanks to communication technology.



WOTC is well aware of this situation. Why would you want me to waste my time giving them information they already possess?

Another point that hasn't been discussed so far is the enforcability of rules. It's easier to think black (cheating) and white (rules), but here being on the internet actually matters quite a bit. The fact that MTGO can be played more or less anonymously from anywhere on earth means that you will never be sure if your opponent is himself, playing alone, not skyping with some of his friends, or getting input from hundreds of stream spectators. How strict WotC wants this set of basically non-enforcable rules to be is up to them alone.



This argument is also incredibly poor. You also can't catch every cheater in paper Magic. Does this mean you shouldn't try to catch any cheaters at all? Hardly. Optimally it would be an easy matter to find any players who gain an unfair advantage and punish them. Unfortunately that is not the case. Luckily for Wizards, certain players take the time to set up live streams of themselves gaining this unfair advantage. They're somewhat easier to catch. This is similar to how a player was caught on camera cheating at Worlds this year, but many players who cheated off camera at various events were not caught. I seriously doubt you think deck manipulation should be made legal simply because it's much more difficult to catch the guys who don't cheat on camera.

In essence, what you want is to have those punished that publicly break outside assistance rules that are not applicable to online Magic.



Yes, except that again I don't buy your point that this particular rule is not applicable to MTGO.

Furthermore, these rules were not enforcable if players wouldn't show footage themselves. So even if you succeed your opponents might still receive just as much outside assistance as before, 



They rules are more difficult to enforce if players don't make it easy to catch them, certainly.

How difficult do you think it is to capture a serial killer in America? Based on the figures I've seen, it's nearly impossible unless the serial killer in question wants to be caught, and begins issuing challenges to police or doing similar ridiculous things. In light of the fact that serial killers rarely get caught unless they do something on the same level as recording their crime, do you believe we should make serial killing legal? It would be asinine to think so, right? You're using the exact same faulty reasoning here.

(And simply because it always happens, if anyone thinks I'm saying streamers are just as bad as serial killers, please think better. I am clearly not saying that.)

but MTGO loses a highly interactive medium with great potential to promote the game (and, in my opinion, good conduct).



I think streaming is absolutely fantastic. It's one of the best things going as far as advertising the game goes, especially as far as high level play is concerned. I believe it would be even more fantastic if streamers simply didn't read the chat while drafting or playing, though. It's not difficult to discuss picks, plays, and sideboarding between rounds, and no unfair advantage is gained by anyone.

WOTC and streamers endorsing an activity that is considered cheating in paper Magic is not something I think helps promote the integrity of the game or the integrity of streamers.
I believe that linking DCI number with online accounts (one per DCI) would be a step in fixing cheating online. Now even if you the utmost despicable things online the max penalty is that you get your account locked. Then you just make another one and go on. You do loose the cards but you could move tham to a "safe" account in advance to avoid this.

There was an inccident that a higher caliber player played an MOX and a GP at the same time. Later he confirmed that a friend played with his account. I'm sure the max penalty was that his account got suspended but I'm sure he did not get suspended from playing magic. So he could just make another account and play onwards. Simple as that. If his DCI number was linked to that account then Wizards could make a online/offline ban or suspension.

There are different kinds of streamers. Some play with little if not without the help of viewers while some play with their viewers. Not all should be considered the same way. Those that repetadly seek out help from viewers should get some kind of warning and if it continues they should be banned/suspended.

Streaming is good for magic but taking advantage of streaming is not in my opinion. 
As long as it is worded as is, streaming with spectator interaction can not be considered a break of conduct.



You say this many times in your post. Prove it. I have no doubt that the current obfuscatory wording of that document prevents you from having an accurate understanding of what is and what isn't allowed.

It is technically impossible to prevent outside assistance in MTGO and the people that set up the CoC made the conscious decision not to outlaw something they have almost no control over. 



It's also technically impossible to prevent murder and ****. I'm incredibly happy that our lawmakers did not use the same flawed reasoning as you and legalize those activities. I'm not saying that WOTC did not also use the same flawed reasoning as you; as I've repeatedly stated, the COC does not allow me to know their position on this in the slightest. I'm just saying that your reasoning is very oviously flawed.
The Code of Conduct is much more important than some think. Even in it's current nondescript form, it governs what is considered legal and appropriate. As long as it is worded as is, streaming with spectator interaction can not be considered a break of conduct. Consequently, cheating accusations are simply uncalled for. It is technically impossible to prevent outside assistance in MTGO and the people that set up the CoC made the conscious decision not to outlaw something they have almost no control over. The fact that streaming is now explicitly allowed in the User's Agreement further supports the idea that streaming (and the according viewer interaction) is not a break of conduct.


I'm fairly certain you are wrong and outside assistance IS prohibited.

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From my point of view, streaming events and interacting with spectators through chat does not constitute unsportsmanlike manner as mentioned in the CoC.



The list is not exhaustive. Are you truly unable to imagine what else "artificially alter the outcome" could mean? I find it interesting that your intepretation is as restrictive as possible in stead of as broad as possible, which is normally what is intended.

In essence, what you want is to have those punished that publicly break outside assistance rules that are not applicable to online Magic. Furthermore, these rules were not enforcable if players wouldn't show footage themselves.



If you put in some real effort you can get away with a lot of illegal things in real life. It doesn't even have to be a serious crime like murder. There are many more criminals than there are caught criminals. It all depends on how visible you make your crimes. It can be as simple as only littering in back alleys and not in plain view on a busy street. This is why thieves break into your house during your vacation, in the middle of the night.

So the fact that you can relatively easily get away with crimes, does that mean that mean that laws are essentially unenforcable and therefore that we might as well not even try and do away with them?

No. Of course not.

So even if you succeed your opponents might still receive just as much outside assistance as before, but MTGO loses a highly interactive medium with great potential to promote the game (and, in my opinion, good conduct).



Let's compare things to some other e-sports and streams. I watch a tremendous amount of it, usually while doing other things on the puter. I'm talking every day, every week, all year long. I *know* about streaming other games. I can tell you that what MTGO streamers do (asking advice during events) is pretty much unique among e-sports, and for MTGO to be taken seriously as an e-sport, this needs to be adressed.

A few examples: I watch several WoW streams (Towellieee is by far the best), I watch almost every SC2 tourney on ESL, as well as several Starcraft 2 streams (most of the evil geniuses, esp DeMuslim), and I watch a few Guild Wars 2 streamers (still deciding on favorites, but Kungen, formerly WoW, is pretty decent).

The only game that I actively watch which has sanctioned events is SC2. During official events utmost care is taken to prevent outside assistance (players are put in glass cocoons in front of an audience) but other ppl comment live. There is nothing like it in other games though (or it would have to be the MTGO invitational during a game con).

But there are also many SC2 players who stream their ladder matches. As a rule they explain their plays to their audience, answer questions about SC2 strategy in general (like "what is the best answer to 3-gate", which race is easiest on which map, or whatever). Never EVER do they say "hey audience, what do you think?" The flow of information is always from them to the audience. The other way around is frankly unthinkable. The only form of cheating that happens with SC2 streams is if some opponent watches their stream to get an unfair advantage. This is deeply frowned upon, especially by the streamers themselves. In this sense they are good rolemodels for others.

Guild Wars 2 has a strong PvP component but here, again, it is pointless to ask for assistance during a fight. The players that I watch explain their skill choices and builds to the audience but don't ask for input. They get it sometimes, discuss the pros and cons and sometimes try out suggestions. However, it is important to realise that this happens during "downtime", when the streamers are not actively playing PvP. It would be comparable to a streamer discussing a constructed deck he intends to play in an event, prior to the event, which is perfectly legal.

WoW is only really interesting in the sense that you get to watch high level players beat high level content. Here outside assistence is not a problem since it's PvE. Most of the WoW streamers talk about random stuff while playing WoW anyway. "Assistance" is the furthest thing from their mind. As far as I know there is no sanctioned PvP in WoW (it is certainly not streamed to my knowledge) but even then, like GW2, it would be so fast paced that outside advice would be pointless, except maybe input on builds.

On the whole, MTGO streamers are breaking quite a few rules that other streamers don't break for other games.

But what I find most surprising is that these MTGO streamers lack the basic professionalism of "just not doing it". Do they not realise that it makes them look weak? I mean, suppose I were streaming my matches. Would I really want to be asking my audience what to do? Isn't the expectation that the streamer knows better and doesn't even NEED the advice? A streamer needs to project confidence and experience, not indecision.

If you routinely ask your audience what to do, you are in essence saying "I'm a crap streamer since you can't even learn anything from me". Why would I ever watch such a noob?
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If outside assistance is in fact prohibited, it should be communicated much more clearly.



Regardless of whether or not outside assistance is prohibited, it should be communicated more clearly. I have made this point repeatedly.


The arguments based on murdering and serial killing did not really convince me of why viewer interaction during streaming is prohibited in the first place.



Those arguments are quite obviously not made to show you why outsided assistance is prohibited. I'm not sure how they could even do so. They are meant to show you problems with how you think, which they do quite well. Your logic is flawed. Any results based on your flawed logic are, at the very least, highly suspect. The arguments given were meant to show that you need to think better by giving clear examples of how obviously ridiculous your arguments are by applying them to other issues.

If it is (I trust bubba's verdict the most here) but neither communicated nor enforced, WotC should change either their policy or their way of dealing with offenders.

While skimming over the user's agreements, I found out that you may not participate in tourneys if you are from one of the following states: "Arizona, Arkansas, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Iowa, Louisiana, Maryland, Nevada, Tennessee, Texas, Vermont and Washington." Furthermore, all "selling of Digital Objects for real-world currency" is strictly prohibited. Which leads me to the question if any of these terms are ever applied?



The COC is terrible. Wizards' enforcement of rules is terrible. Wizards' communication regarding these things is terrible. These are problems that need to be resolved.
I hope you don't bite my head off b, but I can't help but provide a pointer about arguing. Your argument centers on your feelings; that Wizards have a terrible CoC and do not enforce their rules sufficiently.

Now, if your goal is to see to it that this is changed, your efforts should perhaps be directed towards making Wizards feel like they should change their rules. Now, you are concentrating on telling us how you feel. This does very little towards reaching the goal of a policy change.

Logos, ethos, pathos.

Does Black Lotus put you on a 20 turn clock? Does Tarmogoyf fly? Does Bob survive a gutshot? Can you pitch Emrakul to Force of Will? Yeah. Didn't think so.

Your argument centers on your feelings; that Wizards have a terrible CoC and do not enforce their rules sufficiently.



You seem to have confused facts and feelings. I'm not sure what I can do to disabuse you of this notion. I've already covered why I consider the COC useless in regards to discerning what is or is not against the rules multiple times in this thread. Perhaps you can go back and read those posts again? If you disagree with me, please explain why instead of blaming this on my "feelings."

Now, if your goal is to see to it that this is changed, your efforts should perhaps be directed towards making Wizards feel like they should change their rules.



Until I posted on this matter, there was no discussion of it anywhere. There is now discussion of it on multiple forums. Will this necessarily lead to a resolution to the problems at hand? No, but I'm fairly certain that presenting my arguments as to why the current situation sucks is more likely to lead to change than doing nothing.

If you believe that presenting my view of the problems and some potential solutions is insufficient, please enlighten me as to what else I should do. I'm all ears. Telling me that my efforts would be better spent doing what I'm already doing seems a bit silly.
First off, hooray for cybercafes!

Secondly, if you want this to change, instead of whining (that's how I percieve it) at us (who can't really do anything, or don't agree with you), why don't you actually start REPORTING these people for percieved CoC violations? 

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread reading.

I do not wish to participate in this Community Site.

Not to add fuel to your fire but my opinion great differs from yours.  My feeling from your posts is this is personal for you. That you are only going to be satisfied when all the pros you named are tarred and feathered and hung on stocks in the virtual town square for you and all who care to throw rotten tomatoes.



Your perception differs from reality to a crazy extent. I'm quite against cheating. What is going on is cheating. I would like to see Wizards tell people to stop. At no point did I say, or even insinuate, that people doing this now should be "tarred and feathered" and so on (which is such a ridiculous exaggeration of a position that I honestly have no clue why you imagine I believe it).

I think Wizards should tell people to stop giving and receiving outside assistance. If people continue to do this afterwards, they should then be punished. At the moment there's not even a rule against this behaviour, even though it may or may not be covered under the COC (because, honestly, who the hell can tell what that thing covers?).

However there are many people who probably see the same things you do and come to very different conclusions.



I'm sure they see things differently than the crazy interpretation of my view you have. Amazingly enough, I don't see things that way either.

Such as Cedric and the others streaming are probably more able to do magic expertly in their sleep than 99% of us and any value gotten from outside advice is diluted by the very public nature of it.



Your understanding of skill in Magic is off by an incredible degree. I've played in PTs, had a limited rating consistently over 2000 until they got rid of it, and am overall a very good Magic player. I make plenty of mistakes and have huge holes in my understanding of the game. If you watch any pro play, you'll see the same thing with them. There's simply too much to follow in Magic overall and even in individual games for people to be as good as you believe they are. I'm not sure if you've actually watched any streams, but you should give it a shot. You'll see exactly how often good Magic players are uncertain about which possible play is correct.

Not to say that what's going on is right but I do not believe anyone streaming is doing so in order to cheat.



I don't either. My guess is that the possibility that they're cheating never even crossed their minds. People have some weird belief that everything is okay if they do it on the Internet. I don't understand this, but it seems to be what's going on here. None of those players would even consider doing this in a paper tourney, but online they never considered not doing it, even though it's the exact same thing. Humans are stupid like that. We just don't think well.

Even inadvertent cheating if they realized it would probably shame them to no end. I suspect instead they feel they are giving a service to those of us who are not expert players. They are pulling a Fisher (ala Godot's old draft articles) and asking us if we can solve the puzzle even though they know the answers anyway.



I don't know why any particular Magic players stream, but I also don't consider it relevant in the slightest. On the puzzle part, again, you are vastly overestimating the abilities of Magic pros.

I am convinced that cheaters are scum in not just one endeavor but in all they put their hands to.



This is incredibly wrong. Do you remember how everyone who knew Jeffrey Dahmer thought he was a great guy? That's because he was a great guy, as long as he wasn't killing or eating you. Magic cheaters are like Jeffrey Dahmer in that way, but they use cards to cheat instead of cub scouts to eat. Your idea of cheaters is unrealistic. I'm not aware of anyone who is pure garbage outside of works of fiction.

None of the people whom I know that stream are in my opinion scum.



Almost all that you know about these people is that they play Magic, or in rare cases a tiny bit of trivia (such as the fact that Michael Jacobs likes One Piece (as he should), or that Sam Black is vegetarian (so close to vegan, Sam; get there)). If you're judging their overall worth as human beings from that, your criteria for judgment is sorely lacking.

Cheaters definitely don't advertise the fact and I am positive that if Wizards felt there was cheating going on they would do whatever they could to end it or make it unaffordable to do so.



That's why I started this thread. There's an activity that in paper in cheating. Right now it's occurring constantly online, and people are streaming it live and advertising that they do it. Wizards, who in the paper game has rules and penalties written to stop this, is doing absolutely nothing about it online, which amazingly enough includes even talking about it. It's a ridiculous situation, and another example of how people imagine that an action being performed in an identical way online somehow makes it an entirely different action.



Hey If I am wrong about your intentions with this great. You just seem like this fires you up more than the game does. My apologies if my hyperbole was off the mark. I don't think we are going to agree on some of these other points you forcefully suggest.

You claim it is cheating but then claim they aren't doing it intentionally but then claim they should be punished to the maximum amount? Confusing. What I think you meant to say is "This is a loophole. This particular loophole enables cheating. Close it now!"

I too am vehemently against cheating, even though I rarely participate in events where it matters on a monetary level. It tarnishes the game and the high regard I hold for the people who play it.

Several comments about your responses.

1. When I said other people had different viewpoints I meant different than those you expressed. Calling me crazy does not change this. I was also implying that my viewpoint differs from yours as you expressed it. Twisting the words around to say I am crazy also doesn't really help your case.

I believe you mean well with this thread but it sounds from the words youve used that your crusade is not merely a rational logical plea for change for the better but something personal that fires you up. On the basis of that impression is it crazy to think you might have an agenda to humiliate and punish the pros you thought were (or rather should be) rolemodels and as it turns out from your viewpoint are not?

2. I don't know Sam Black or Cedric Philips though I have talked with Cedric a little and he seems OK to me. I do know Kibler from when he was a teen. He doesn't have a cheating bone in his body imho. Say what you will, I am basing that on my personal experience of the guy over many years. We aren't close friends but I respect his ability, character and reputation.

3. Jeffery Dahmer, say what you want about him, wasn't as far as I know a cheat.  (Unless you consider eating your date cheating.) Well maybe he was but it isn't in his public dossier. Cheaters tend to be unable to resist doing so in anything they do. They may not get caught, and we may never hear about it but they do it. Any time there is a good chance to do it and get away with it they take it. And getting away with it is very important to them. Advertising that they are doing something publically that others could call cheating would be something they wouldn't do. Which is why I am sure (as you said yourself) none of these streamers are intentionally cheating.

4. I get what you mean about skill. I played out of Neutral Ground for many years (until BDM sold it) and know quite well how player skill works. It is constantly in flux and people need to retrain all the time. Your peak skill certainly trumps mine as I never even got near 2k, though I am sure much of that was my own interference with my game. So I defer to your understanding of high level play but I know plenty of pros who could run the Fisher style of lesson effectively. Would they do so? I am sure a few would if they had the time and inclination.


By the way, I am not in disagreement with your basic premise that the loophole should be closed just with how you are going about asking for it. Witch hunts are ugly and calling people out for something they have not done is uglier still. Maximum punishment whatever that might be should be reserved for after it has been resolved whether or not streaming with chat open is even allowed or not. It shouldn't even enter into the discussion, muddying the waters.

First let us convince the powers that be that Streaming with Chat open is something that shouldn't happen and a ban against it can be enforced. We can't really ban people from getting advice on the sly (which was what my point about real cheaters methods was about) but we can certainly stop them from doing it in public if everyone agrees that it is wrong.

I am not sure everyone does.

Winter.Wolf (ugh at this new forum with the ridiculous double login)

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