The Obligatory Return to Ravnica Spoilers Thread

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This is the inevitable thread where we comment on cards from the upcoming set from a Legacy viewpoint, decry cards as broken or terrible, and generally say things that will become hilarious in hindsight.

I'll begin with the Golgari mechanic, Scavenge. I feel that given the immense popularity of Swords to Plowshares and (ironically) Scavenging Ooze, this ability will largely be irrelevant by itself.

I'm very impressed by Izzet Charm, especially after Zac Hill recently insisted that Mana Leak was overpowered. I mean, I can understand how the availability of both Mana Leak with Snapcaster might be problematic in Standard. I can see that. But you'd think that a counterspell with more versatility and again excellent synergy with Snapcaster could be even more dangerous, no?

I wonder if URx combo decks like Sneak and Show might end up playing one or two. It's a passable counterspell, it deals with hate bears even when cast off of Cavern of Souls, it digs for combo pieces, and it pitches to FoW.

Also, 3 years on this forum!
In Legacy, Blue is the best color. Let's punish blue, in Modern. And they listened!
Happy anniversary! =D


I see the Charm being strong in certain decks. It's versatility, easy colors, and 2cmc are all good marks for it. It may possibly make it into RUG Delver, but the inability to be burn is pretty bad there.

Scavenge may or may not be a thing, depending on the curve of creatures who have it. If I got a strongly curved creature with Scavenge, I would probably risk it in an aggressive deck. I mean, if you StP it, you've still only 1-for-1'd me. It's like flashback in that preventing it doesn't gain value, just gives me a little less value.

Overload will be pretty bad for Legacy, unless they spoil something crazy with it. You simply aren't going to pay 8 mana for a worse Firespout in Legacy.

All in all, fairly obvious stuff. Exciting, but not really begging for in-depth analysis. 
Etiamnunc sto, etiamsi caelum ruat.
...very keen to see what mechanic RAKDOS receives....
I love Hellbent in combo decks   Infernal Tutor & Gibbering Descent are some of my fave Black cards in the right deck.
Some comments on the Charm/Mana Leak comparision:  Izzet Charm isn't worse than Mana Leak.  First, you have to be playing a certain two colors, and have access to both of them.  Since a lot of Delver decks only like to splash the other color, the color commitment is a lot harder to meet than it is for Leak.  Second, the fact that it only taxes the opponent for 2 instead of 3 is a big issue.  It's a lot easier to get to 2 extra mana than it is to get to 3, making it much easier to play around the Charm without just dying to a flipped Delver.  Third, decks that want to be playing Leak don't usually want card disadvantage.  The looting on Charm is definitely card disadvantage, and thus undesirable.

Of course, the 2 points of burn is pretty good, but if that's what you need, there are a lot of other more efficient cards.

Not to say that the Charm doesn't have the possibility of being sweet.  I really like the card, and I hope it's good. 


...

In Standard.  It has no shot of making it in Legacy.  You have to actually spend 2 mana on it, making it worse than Daze and Spell Pierce in the vast majority of cases.  2 points of burn is pretty much useless.  Looting is rarely want decks want to do, making the third use completely irrelevant.
Some comments on the Charm/Mana Leak comparision:  Izzet Charm isn't worse than Mana Leak.  First, you have to be playing a certain two colors, and have access to both of them.  Since a lot of Delver decks only like to splash the other color, the color commitment is a lot harder to meet than it is for Leak.  Second, the fact that it only taxes the opponent for 2 instead of 3 is a big issue.  It's a lot easier to get to 2 extra mana than it is to get to 3, making it much easier to play around the Charm without just dying to a flipped Delver.  Third, decks that want to be playing Leak don't usually want card disadvantage.  The looting on Charm is definitely card disadvantage, and thus undesirable.

Of course, the 2 points of burn is pretty good, but if that's what you need, there are a lot of other more efficient cards.

Not to say that the Charm doesn't have the possibility of being sweet.  I really like the card, and I hope it's good. 


...

In Standard.  It has no shot of making it in Legacy.  You have to actually spend 2 mana on it, making it worse than Daze and Spell Pierce in the vast majority of cases.  2 points of burn is pretty much useless.  Looting is rarely want decks want to do, making the third use completely irrelevant.




Looting is surprisingly strong. Card disadvantage aside, you're digging deep at instant speed and filling the yard, Tempo decks care less about card advantange, and more about, well, tempo.

Also, the Charm can't be burn; only x/2 removal, which is the main reasons I don't expect Delver to play it. Playing around Spell Pierce is really not miles away from playing around Leak. If I can keep you off that particular spell for an extra two turns, I'm probably in good shape.

You're worrying too much about efficiency and not enough about the point of the charm, which is versatility. Yes, Spell Pierce is better at being Spell Pierce. But it can NEVER be Dead or Faithless Looting. Leak has more raw power, but the Charm is useful in more situations, which can be a pretty big deal.
Etiamnunc sto, etiamsi caelum ruat.
Some comments on the Charm/Mana Leak comparision:  Izzet Charm isn't worse than Mana Leak. 



I was trying to say, that after Zac Hill bashed Mana Leak, I did not expect to see a good counterspell anytime soon. And Izzet Charm is, among other things, a good counterspell. In Legacy I can see it being played as a 1- or 2-of in some fringe deck and that's pretty much it.

The Rakdos mechanic is called Unleash (You may have this creature enter the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it. It can't block as long as it has a +1/+1 counter on it.) While the ability to block may or may not matter depending on the matchup, a +1/+1 counter is only a small improvement, so like Scavenge, I feel it's a marginal ability.
In Legacy, Blue is the best color. Let's punish blue, in Modern. And they listened!
Ugh, they've all been terrible/mediocre mechanics so far. Scavenge is probably the most practical, Overload being the one with the most potential to be broken, and Populate being mediocre along Unleash. I would have rathered it gain +1/+0 and a keyword with Unleash, like Haste? but taht would be too broken.
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Many spoilers today.

Dreadbore seems good for Standard. In Legacy it will be hampered by its sorcery speed and the fact that it's not a reason to play B/R. Its rarity seems unwarranted, especially since there's relatively little good removal in the Innistrad block and a lot of people will be wanting it for B/r Zombies.

Jace, Architect of Thought is pretty underwhelming.

I like Grisly Salvage for Standard. 5 cards is very deep digging. Lyev Skyknight and the Detain mechanic of Azorius also look good for Standard.
In Legacy, Blue is the best color. Let's punish blue, in Modern. And they listened!
Well it's about time we didn't get a blue planeswalker that just kicks arse over all other walkers.
To be honest, I was hoping RtR would just re-use the same mechanics instead of invent new ones, a lot of these newer ones are pretty "meh".
  
Yeah I like Grisly Salvage too, bit disappointed that it's limited to land or creatures though.

I like the look of Rakdos's Return.
Reminds me of Blightning, but with Dark Ritual it has some potential.

Although for me, Judge's Familiar (cursecatcher in U/W) looks to be the pick of the lot so far. 
Lotleth Troll - how can a creature be so good in Standard but so bad elsewhere?

Actually, I'm not sure if he's going to be that good in Standard. There will be some edict effects and -X/-X removal still.
In Legacy, Blue is the best color. Let's punish blue, in Modern. And they listened!

I disagree entirely with mako on the Troll.  Right now, it looks absolutely terrible in Standard.  It could turn out to be ok if a lot more good graveyard centric cards are in the set.  It could be better suited for Legacy where the card advantage is cheap, the graveyard is a major resource and 2+ colors is easily supported.

Dryad Militant as a 1 of in Maverick seems like it could be playable, as a natural hate to the IGG plan and Blue decks.
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Dryad Militant as a 1 of in Maverick seems like it could be playable, as a natural hate to the IGG plan and Blue decks.



People still run Iggy?? I remember attempting that deck with Dream Salvage shenanigans.


Loltroll looks pretty good for Standard. -X/-X removal is terrible against him, especially if you are ditching Scavenge creatures. Also, discarding Gravecrawlers is going to be sick.
Etiamnunc sto, etiamsi caelum ruat.
Unless I'm very outdated, most ANT/TES decks still have that 1 of IGG/Past in Flames.
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I'll be running these over Maelstrom Pulse in my Nic-Fit. Maybe over Pernicious Deed ... not too sure atm. Suggestions?
I don't think ANT/TES both run the Iggy loop.  If I remember my decklists correctly, if a Storm list runs Iggy, it's considered to be ANT.  If it doesn't, it's TES.  I beleive TES is more likely to be running PiF.  Even if I've gotten the names screwed up (or forgotten a variant entirely), Iggy is still around in some lists.  It just isn't seen much because Storm isn't seen at a high level all that much anymore.

I really like both W/x 1-drops.  Either of them could find a home in Maverick as sideboard option or 1-ofs (or more) in the main.

@EpicLevelCommoner:  I wouldn't replace either of the cards you mentioned with Abrupt Decay.  It doesn't fit the same role(s). Replacing Deed with it is absolutely terrible, as Deed is the sweeper you need to deal with Nimble Mongoose and other shrouded/hexproof threats.  It could seemingly replace Pulse, but Pulse deals with planeswalkes, or at least the ones played in Legacy.  Pulse also has the chance of getting you a 2-for-1.

That said, Abrupt Decay is really good.  It's certainly powerful enough for Legacy, and I expect to see it show up somewhere.

What's everyone's opinion on the uncounterable sweeper (I don't remember the name)?  I think it could potentially find a place in U/W CounterTop over Terminus.  Terminus can usually be cast at instant speed for 1 mana, but it's not a real sweeper against decks with Green Sun's Zenith or RUG Delver with all the library manipulation, as it just increases the threat density in those decks.  However, the sweeper has a very relevant CMC for Counterbalance as it actually counters something that's played in the format (Jace, Elspeth).
You could see the IGG loop in Pact Spanish Inq., but I'd think it's a sure thing there either.  


What's everyone's opinion on the uncounterable sweeper (I don't remember the name)? 




Supreme Verdict.
I like it - anything that makes Day of Judgment absolutely unplayable in comparison makes my skin crawl, but you know.....Yell
Could defnitely be playable in the right deck.     
  

Dryad Militant as a 1 of in Maverick seems like it could be playable, as a natural hate to the IGG plan and Blue decks.


[...]
Loltroll looks pretty good for Standard. -X/-X removal is terrible against him, especially if you are ditching Scavenge creatures. Also, discarding Gravecrawlers is going to be sick.



In practice, -X/-X reads Tragic Slip for -13/-13 and that will be enough to kill him. Scavenge is a sorcery speed activated ability so discarding Scavenge creatures offers no special advantage, really, unless you discard 13 of them. Discarding Gravecrawlers is a good synergy but it also means not playing said Gravecrawlers on Turn 1. Having said that, it's still a powerful 2-drop.

Abrupt Decay will likely see some Legacy play, if only because it wrecks Delver and generally it hits a lot of things. It seems to fit into BUG Tempo and Control pretty well. It's worth bearing in mind that it won't do anything against fatties though.

Why we get so much countermagic hate all of a sudden (and I'm counting in Cavern of Souls), I don't even. As long as they don't put it on Hexproof creatures, it shouldn't hurt though.

As of today, it looks like Golgari get by far the strongest cards, but we've only seen about a third of the entire set, and that includes basic lands, so it's actually even less than that.
In Legacy, Blue is the best color. Let's punish blue, in Modern. And they listened!
So, who wants to address the elephant in the room?

(I'm probably overratting Loxodon Smiter, but I feel he may be legacy worthy.)
He's extremely niche. I honestly don't think he'll see much play largely since he has no really relevant abilities. While can't be countered is nice and all he doesn't do that much to merit one. The discard clause is nice but I don't really think he fits anywhere. Maverick is already chock full of stuff to play as is zoo and bant. He just doesn't really do anything better than anything that already exists.
Eh ... Loxodon Smiter doesn't really do that much except get around CounterTop with ease. Nobody is going to Thoughtseize, Therapy, or Inquisition a 4/4 for 3 in Legacy, not when we got Goyf and Knight of the Reliquary (and Doran the Siege Tower). And no one is going to counter that either instead of the other, more threatening choices.

Anyhow ... Slitherhead seems playable, though not as much as Abrupt Decay and Supreme Verdict. Thoughts?
Yeah, Smiter is just outclassed in P/T<-->Cost by Goyf and Delver, and outclassed as a 4/4 with abilities by Thrun. 
Etiamnunc sto, etiamsi caelum ruat.
@Epic:  Slitherhead isn't playable.  A 1/1 for one that grows a guy later isn't exactly good.  Why would you ever play this over Noble Hierarch, Mother of Runes, Gravecrawler or any of the typical G/B 1-drops?
@serene: I always forget that thrun is uncounterable. yeah, that makes elephant a lot less exciting.
@Epic:  Slitherhead isn't playable.  A 1/1 for one that grows a guy later isn't exactly good.  Why would you ever play this over Noble Heirarch, Mother of Runes, Gravecrawler or any of the typical G/B 1-drops?



Eh ... maybe playable wasn't the right term. Budget Playable maybe? I honestly thought there was some sort of interaction they had with +1/+1 counters in Legacy. The best thing I can think of though is that one Sunburst Ancestral Recall and Cadaverous Bloom.
To my knowledge, there is no interaction with +1/+1 counters in Legacy.  Plus, Etched Oracle and Cadaverous Bloom (which doesn't use +1/+1 counters...) are completely unplayable in Legacy.

"Budget playable" is just another term for "not playable".  Sure, you could actually play any non-banned card in Legacy, but you only really want to play the great cards.
Got it.
Eh ... Loxodon Smiter doesn't really do that much except get around CounterTop with ease.



It's a better Great Sable Stag in colors that are already good at abusing Cavern of Souls. Very meh, really.
In Legacy, Blue is the best color. Let's punish blue, in Modern. And they listened!
Nothing very interesting on Monday or today. Just wanted to point out that although Desecration Demon's drawback is perhaps less relevant in Legacy than in Standard, it's still far weaker than KotR or Goyf. I don't expect him to be usable.
In Legacy, Blue is the best color. Let's punish blue, in Modern. And they listened!
I think it's very useful.  It could replace Abyssal Persecutor or Tombstalker in a lot of black decks.
Anybody else thinking that Epic Experiment might successfully replace Mind's Desire? It's easier to counter, but a few rits into it could be nice.
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So, what about epic experiment? Seems strong as it generates a lot of card advantage. Obviously useful with rituals, suspend, storm, and past in flames. Sorta like dragonstorm.
IMAGE(http://www.projektstarwars.de/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=16432&dateline=1299412590) Fallen Star Verlag Play Legacy! Decks: Legacy Natural Order/Hulk EDH Iname, Death Aspect / Rosheen Meanderer Casual Elves! I petition for the removal of the mythic rarity.
I'm actually kind of interested in Nivmagus Elemental. With all the countermagic in legacy, he lets you play out your spells, and if they counter it, you get a consolation prize of a bigger dude. Probably sideboard material, but I'm curious how it would play out.
Epic Experiment seems pretty terrible.  Storm using it would just create another choke-point spell they have to resolve to win, and it's significantly flashier (and thus more likely to be countered) than many of their other spells.  Using to circumvent the "no casting cost" spells like Ancestral Vision and the like isn't as effective as Shardless Agent and other cascades because it costs more mana to make sure it hits.  I think the spell is just too clunky and too slow.  You have to pump a lot of mana into it to make sure it works, plus have a very specific decklist to make it worth while.

The Elemental is also pretty bad.  Sure, you get some value out of your countered spells, but you're wasting a card on the off chance that the opponent is going to counter your spells.  The only potential role I can see the card having is as a sideboard card in Storm against Flusterstorm.  Even then, you'd have to know that they have Flusterstorm in their deck, you have to waste time digging for the Elemental, resolve Elemental and still have enough gas to go off before it does anything.  Silence or Orim's Chant just seems like it would be better overall to stop hate.
Epic Experiment seems pretty terrible.  Storm using it would just create another choke-point spell they have to resolve to win, and it's significantly flashier (and thus more likely to be countered) than many of their other spells.  Using to circumvent the "no casting cost" spells like Ancestral Vision and the like isn't as effective as Shardless Agent and other cascades because it costs more mana to make sure it hits.  I think the spell is just too clunky and too slow.  You have to pump a lot of mana into it to make sure it works, plus have a very specific decklist to make it worth while.



Most of those things were true of the Mind's Desire decks, with the exception that EE is easy to counter. Seems to me if you're storming off, and can protect this one spell, you win.
Etiamnunc sto, etiamsi caelum ruat.
The problem isn't that Epic Experiment won't likely win you the game if you can protect it, it's that the same is already true of the "kill" cards (I'm calling Infernal Tutor and the like the kill cards, because if they resolve, you're dead) Storm decks already play.  Why would you play something that has higher variance and is harder to protect (the extra mana you pump into it can't be used as Daze or Spell Pierce protection) over something that is more versatile and cheaper?  It just doesn't make any sense to me...
It's easy on the mana base as the deck could be U/r exclusively. It's not harder to protect if you can play force alongside it (density of U spells would be quite high). Also it doesn't rely on the yard in any way.

Of course it would be slower than other storm builds but I still think it could have a place in legacy.
IMAGE(http://www.projektstarwars.de/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=16432&dateline=1299412590) Fallen Star Verlag Play Legacy! Decks: Legacy Natural Order/Hulk EDH Iname, Death Aspect / Rosheen Meanderer Casual Elves! I petition for the removal of the mythic rarity.
You want to be in black already for the discard and the best ritual, so making the mana base "easier" isn't that important.

Also, most Legacy Storm decks don't rely on the graveyard already.  The Iggy loop isn't very common, nor is Past in Flames
I think it's very useful.  It could replace Abyssal Persecutor or Tombstalker in a lot of black decks.



Well, Desecration Demon could replace Persecutor, because he's basically the same creature with different drawbacks. Thing is, neither Persecutor nor the only deck that plays it (the Gate) are very good, so it won't matter much if Desecration Demon is slightly better. Cue rant on black creatures in every block since Alara.

Tombstalker and Desecration Demon/Persecutor are too different to replace one another. Tombstalker fits into tempo decks. Desecration Demon/Persecutor are for slower, midrange-y decks.
In Legacy, Blue is the best color. Let's punish blue, in Modern. And they listened!
I think it's very useful.  It could replace Abyssal Persecutor or Tombstalker in a lot of black decks.



Well, Desecration Demon could replace Persecutor, because he's basically the same creature with different drawbacks. Thing is, neither Persecutor nor the only deck that plays it (the Gate) are very good, so it won't matter much if Desecration Demon is slightly better. Cue rant on black creatures in every block since Alara.

Tombstalker and Desecration Demon/Persecutor are too different to replace one another. Tombstalker fits into tempo decks. Desecration Demon/Persecutor are for slower, midrange-y decks.



You havre my utter agreement with black creatures - they seriously don't wanna make mono-black competitive i think.  The amount of ways that mono-black has to pump out a large beatstick is already pretty good, maybe that's why?
....I still don't like the fact many of the best black creatures still don't give you much of a reason to play mono-black.

I can understand why black creatures don't get graced with "uncounterable".....still don't like it. 

@Epic:  Slitherhead isn't playable.  A 1/1 for one that grows a guy later isn't exactly good.  Why would you ever play this over Noble Hierarch, Mother of Runes, Gravecrawler or any of the typical G/B 1-drops?


   
Disagree - PACT SI players will defnitely snap this up over Odious Trow just because it looks cool, let alone it's effect.

I'm not sure there will be many other uses for it, but somehow I don't see it fitting into Nix/Rock etc as they alrady have a pretty nice selection of 1 and 2 drops.
You want to be in black already for the discard and the best ritual, so making the mana base "easier" isn't that important.

Also, most Legacy Storm decks don't rely on the graveyard already.  The Iggy loop isn't very common, nor is Past in Flames




Discard is useful, but not necessary, a strong countersuite is much better. High tide isn't a very fast deck as well but it is still popular.
IMAGE(http://www.projektstarwars.de/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=16432&dateline=1299412590) Fallen Star Verlag Play Legacy! Decks: Legacy Natural Order/Hulk EDH Iname, Death Aspect / Rosheen Meanderer Casual Elves! I petition for the removal of the mythic rarity.
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