A new Gravedigger

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Flavorvise this is a fine upgrade to our old [c]Gravedigger[/C], mechanical it might be a bit on the strong side, but gravedigger isn't that strong anymore imo. Compare it to [c]Entomber Exarch[/C] and enjoy.

Necromancer                      :2M::B::B:
Creature - Human Wizard  (Uncommon)
When Necromancer enters the battlefield, you may return target creature or planeswalker card from your graveyard to your hand.
2/2


I haven't decided upon a flavor text yet, but some kind of hymn would be cool. The name fits and hasn't been used yet, and for such a simple design the has to be short imo. 
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card: [c]cardname[/c]-> [c]Vampire Nighthawk[/c] -> Vampire Nighthawk
It doesn't work flavorfully, because Planeswalkers don't actually die when they go to the graveyard (if I recall correctly).
Planeswalkers goes to the graveyard, the graveyard is for dead things, so planeswalkers die.
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card: [c]cardname[/c]-> [c]Vampire Nighthawk[/c] -> Vampire Nighthawk
It's too expensive. Competitive gaming can't support a cost of 4, even for an effect like that. I don't know who taught you this, but being a creature matters very little. Good for a chump block is the same thing as good for nothing.

IMAGE(http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/1/1c/Spr_4p_389.png)

Planeswalkers goes to the graveyard, the graveyard is for dead things, so planeswalkers die.


Really? Is my used Lightning Bolt a 'dead thing'? Or a Swamp, Pacifism, Millstone? Are they dead? Should a necromancer be able to get any of those back?

[<o>]

Planeswalkers goes to the graveyard, the graveyard is for dead things, so planeswalkers die.


Really? Is my used Lightning Bolt a 'dead thing'? Or a Swamp, Pacifism, Millstone? Are they dead? Should a necromancer be able to get any of those back?



Those were never considered living.

A planeswalker is (powerful) mage, a mage is a creature (in magic), a dead creature can be reanimated, thus a planeswalker can be reanimated (with the right spell).

Lightning bolt is not a creature, thus it can not be reanimated as it was never animated in the first place.

@GM. Gravedigger is fine. 
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card: [c]cardname[/c]-> [c]Vampire Nighthawk[/c] -> Vampire Nighthawk
Planeswalkers die. Due to the nature of the game, you can't constrain the graveyard to a single representation, due to the complexities of the other zones and what they represent. To make things simple on ourselves, we simply consider it the graveyard; in representation of The Void, as in limbo or non-existence.

Gravedigger has long been obsolete my dear. And even before, it was always second to Raise Dead (or reanimators like Zombify). As more contemporaries of that spell became available, they took full precedence over Gravedigger (like Unearth).

IMAGE(http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/1/1c/Spr_4p_389.png)

Planeswalkers goes to the graveyard, the graveyard is for dead things, so planeswalkers die.

Using the graveyard to represent dead creatures is complicated anyway. Do Spirits or Zombies die?

I don't really have much of a problem with Disentomb having a planeswalker option. Besides, players use things like "kill Jace" or "kill Ajani" much more often than "make Jace go away", so it's not as if it would be hard to make sense of it.
Flavor solves all problems:

Lord of Loyalties

Creature – Human Wizard (U)
2/2

When Lord of Loyalties enters the battlefield, you may return target creature or planeswalker card from your graveyard to your hand.

"Let no barrier between worlds impede the blood yoke of obedience."

Embrace imagination.

Lord of YMtC | Ten Rounds Contest Winner

Solphos – A fan set with a 'combo matters' theme

Fool's Gold – The second set of the Solphos block



I don't really have much of a problem with Disentomb having a planeswalker option. Besides, players use things like "kill Jace" or "kill Ajani" much more often than "make Jace go away", so it's not as if it would be hard to make sense of it.


Yeah, that is part of it.

Besides, from what i can read (on Wiki about planeswalkers), then planeswalkers have been mortal since Time Spiral block so ... yeah, you get it. 
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card: [c]cardname[/c]-> [c]Vampire Nighthawk[/c] -> Vampire Nighthawk
It probably won't see any competitive play (much like Gravedigger, but it's a decent card. It could still be ranked a common. The small addition to the ability is easily countered by its black mana intensity (i.e. less splashable). So, overall, it's an okay improvement on a decent casual card.

Planeswalkers goes to the graveyard, the graveyard is for dead things, so planeswalkers die.


Really? Is my used Lightning Bolt a 'dead thing'? Or a Swamp, Pacifism, Millstone? Are they dead? Should a necromancer be able to get any of those back?



Those were never considered living.

A planeswalker is (powerful) mage, a mage is a creature (in magic), a dead creature can be reanimated, thus a planeswalker can be reanimated (with the right spell).

Lightning bolt is not a creature, thus it can not be reanimated as it was never animated in the first place.

@GM. Gravedigger is fine. 



According to that logic, a planeswalker is a creature. It isn't. It is a planeswalker. It can be brought back to the battlefield and/or your hand from the graveyard if a spell or ability allows for that card type, just like any other card.

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No, they don't die. There's a reason its loyalty counters and not life. They get not enough or you make them use abilities they dont want, and they leave. You pay enough mana and remember the spell again, you can call them back.
No, they don't die. There's a reason its loyalty counters and not life. They get not enough or you make them use abilities they dont want, and they leave. You pay enough mana and remember the spell again, you can call them back.



Take a read here. Planeswalkers die. I don't think anyone was referencing literal game schematics; it was corresponding to flavor and realism.

IMAGE(http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/1/1c/Spr_4p_389.png)

Nobody was being literal. Get out Kevin.
Planeswalkers do die as they are mortals. The flavor of the Maic the gathering game is that each player is a powerful planeswalker fighting with one another. When your life points reach zero, then you're considered to have died in that battle. When you cant draw from your library you're considered to have become crazy mad since it represents your thoughts.

That's one way of seeing it. The other one, as wizards tried to explain the planewasker cards, is that they come to help you out. Their loyalty points represent just how much they are willing to get beaten up before they decide to leave you, either because they are fed with you, bored aout the outcome of the fight or because they fear death is coming their way. This explanation could be somehow applied to the life points for players too.

On the graveyard falvor. The graveyard is a representation of both a physical pile of cadavers, broken artifacts, barren lands, etc in the battlefield and a collection of your past memories (you can put instant sorceries and enchantments here). Using the two possible explanations i mentioned for planeswalkers, they could either be dead in this zone or they could just be a reminiscence of your mind. (each person has to coose their own explanation).

Im ok with oth thoughts and the existence of your card as a zombie wo brings walkers back from the dead or the flavory loyalty card some1 else posted  that gives u back the walker via convincing him u wont let the walker get harmed or some other flavorful reason.

I don't really have much of a problem with Disentomb having a planeswalker option. Besides, players use things like "kill Jace" or "kill Ajani" much more often than "make Jace go away", so it's not as if it would be hard to make sense of it.


My problem with it isn't the fact that it is black, but the fact that it is called "Disentomb".

Also people saying "kill Jace" just shows that people use convinient language and things they already know to express things casually. It's not common for people to question the flavor nuances of every single interaction in the game, otherwise the phrases used to express actions would be a lot more vivid and varied.


That's one way of seeing it. The other one, as wizards tried to explain the planewasker cards, is that they come to help you out. Their loyalty points represent just how much they are willing to get beaten up before they decide to leave you, either because they are fed with you, bored aout the outcome of the fight or because they fear death is coming their way. This explanation could be somehow applied to the life points for players too.


And flavor goes out the window when you cast a second copy of a planeswalker right after the first one dies, so...

"Hey Nissa, I need a favor."
"You just asked me for a 'favor' like thirty seconds ago, and it turned out to be having Sarkhan Transmogrify my only follower into a dragon like 5 times -which dickery aside also violates some laws of causality - and then you let me get beaten over the head by that hedron crab."
"...I'll give you "
"...Well all right then." 

Zammm = Batman.

It's my sig in a box
58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
A turn two Tibalt win?! Wicked... Betcha don't see that everyday.

The Pony Co. 

Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.

That's one way of seeing it. The other one, as wizards tried to explain the planewasker cards, is that they come to help you out. Their loyalty points represent just how much they are willing to get beaten up before they decide to leave you, either because they are fed with you, bored aout the outcome of the fight or because they fear death is coming their way. This explanation could be somehow applied to the life points for players too.


And flavor goes out the window when you cast a second copy of a planeswalker right after the first one dies, so...

"Hey Nissa, I need a favor."
"You just asked me for a 'favor' like thirty seconds ago, and it turned out to be having Sarkhan Transmogrify my only follower into a dragon like 5 times -which dickery aside also violates some laws of causality - and then you let me get beaten over the head by that hedron crab."
"...I'll give you "
"...Well all right then." 



It's quite obvious that you've never experienced before. Peasant.
It's too expensive. Competitive gaming can't support a cost of 4, even for an effect like that. I don't know who taught you this, but being a creature matters very little. Good for a chump block is the same thing as good for nothing.



Baneslayer Angel and Jace, the Mind Sculptor say you're a liar.

Also, it's card advantage.

@Sleeping:
I thought "Kill Jace" was because I was tired of losing all my cards and being put on a so-many-turn clock, which can't be above 7.

@RPJesus:
I'm loving it. Also, you're one of the lower races. Above vampires, but nowhere near as flawless as elves. (This is Nissa we're talking about.)
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
WotC chose to call the discard pile the graveyard for several reasons:
1) It helps flavor reanimation
2) It helps us understand reanimation
3) Mostly for reanimation

I mean, what happens if I cast a creature and it gets countered... can it technically get reanimated (it never existed)?

The answer to that would be to make a graveyard pile and a discard pile.
Creatures that "die" go to the graveyard. They were living breathing things, and should you know be able to be reanimated.
Creatures that get milled, countered, discarded etc. should go to the discard pile. They were technically never actually creatures, they were just spells in your hand.

The reason they don't do that, is having to very similar piles is awkward. Why have two similar piles instead of one pile? They combined the two piles and gave it a flavorful name is all. Graveyard.

As for planeswalkers, they don't die (in game). When their loyalty is reduced to 0, or below, they go somewhere else. The flavor of a planeswalker is you send out a call, and they answer for as long as they feel like it (as long as they have above 0 loyalty). Once that loyalty has been depleted they no longer care about your problems (they are probably worried about them actually dying) and they leave. That is what technically happens in game. In reality, planeswalkers are mortal and can be killed, they are just really difficult to kill, but it's still possible.

My Little Rant:

Technically, as fun and easy as reanimation is conceptually, in game, it is a very complex mechanic. Here's why:
You cast creature spells, and those spells result in two things: a living creature, an empty slot of "memory". The creature gets put onto the battlefield, while the spell itself gets discarded. That alone requires two cards for one thing. A card to represent the living creature, and a card to represent the spell that created the creature. That is something WotC will NEVER do I hope (double-face cards are exceptions because if you play with [good] sleeves, you only need one card.)
Beyond that, you would need a graveyard AND a discard pile to successfully distinguish between dead creatures, and creature spells.
A creature that was on the battlefield and was destroyed, should go to the graveyard. Creature spells from hands, libraries or the stack should go to the discard pile (they were never really alive they were literally a spell in your mind, and/or spellbook). This becomes obnoxious because you not only need two cards (the creature and the creature spell), you need two separate (but extremely similar) piles, one strictly for dead creatures, and one for every other exhausted resources.
This gets more complicated when it comes to othe permanents as well. Lands that get destroyed, artifacts... planeswalkers (to me planeswalker should be exiled upon "losing loyalty" that signifies really that they have long gone, and also that they don't actually die). These different permanent types become problems once they are on the battlefield and are dead, dying or destroyed.
Reanimation comes into effect but can only target creatures in graveyards, but not creatures in the discard pile (again, they never existed). So in theory as simple as reanimation is, mechanically, it is really difficult to nail down flavorfully on a card.
Results: Don't OVER stress when it comes down to flavor. There will always be problems with something, but you have to make exceptions for ease of gameplay, ease of memory and ease of fun. Especially, fun! So regardless of the flavor of everything just make cards.


In short, planeswalkers technically don't die, and I think CKY is going the right direction for "reanimating" planeswalkers.
Official archnemesis of magicpablo666 Host of Reactionary Proud owner of "The Terrible Cube" The altimis Archive I'm baking lands!!! Beginner of GROMA
Notable Quotables:
58060728 wrote:
I carefully examine the walls of the room in a determined effort to not follow the GMs plot.
Planeswalkers must really hate getting hit by plants and fungi.
It's too expensive. Competitive gaming can't support a cost of 4, even for an effect like that. I don't know who taught you this, but being a creature matters very little. Good for a chump block is the same thing as good for nothing.



Baneslayer Angel and Jace, the Mind Sculptor say you're a liar.

Also, it's card advantage.



Sorry for the typo there. I mean, that type of effect is too weak at a cost of 4.

IMAGE(http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/1/1c/Spr_4p_389.png)

It seems that the arguments against mine is too powerful, so i will consess that you might be right.
On the other hand this have been getting almost as much attention as GM thread, so I'm happy =)

For now the only other solution for a better flavor for the mechanic (which i still like) is this one: 


Flavor solves all problems:

Lord of Loyalties

Creature – Human Wizard (U)
2/2

When Lord of Loyalties enters the battlefield, you may return target creature or planeswalker card from your graveyard to your hand.

"Let no barrier between worlds impede the blood yoke of obedience."


I'm not 100% sold on it yet, but as this is the better version then it will be the one I'll want to work from. The most pressing problem i have with it, is that it doesn't feel like a lord.
How to Autocard
card: [c]cardname[/c]-> [c]Vampire Nighthawk[/c] -> Vampire Nighthawk

It seems that the arguments against mine is too powerful, so i will consess that you might be right.
On the other hand this have been getting almost as much attention as GM thread, so I'm happy =)

For now the only other solution for a better flavor for the mechanic (which i still like) is this one: 


Flavor solves all problems:

Lord of Loyalties

Creature – Human Wizard (U)
2/2

When Lord of Loyalties enters the battlefield, you may return target creature or planeswalker card from your graveyard to your hand.

"Let no barrier between worlds impede the blood yoke of obedience."


I'm not 100% sold on it yet, but as this is the better version then it will be the one I'll want to work from. The most pressing problem i have with it, is that it doesn't feel like a lord.



Just tweak it a little bit, or change the name maybe...

Like add, "Whenever a planeswalker enters the battlefield under your control, put a loyalty counter on it." (More lordish)

Or name it, Caller of Power, Master of the Call, something or other... you know. Make it related to loyalty somehow.

I wouldn't do both, but one or the other might make it fit better.
Official archnemesis of magicpablo666 Host of Reactionary Proud owner of "The Terrible Cube" The altimis Archive I'm baking lands!!! Beginner of GROMA
Notable Quotables:
58060728 wrote:
I carefully examine the walls of the room in a determined effort to not follow the GMs plot.
Caller of Power sound fine to me, thank you.

The card is now part of cycle with Archaeomancer and another white card:


NAME  :W::W:
Creature - Human Wizard
When NAME enters the battlefield, return target artifact or enchantment card from your graveyard to your hand.
(flavor)
 
2/2
How to Autocard
card: [c]cardname[/c]-> [c]Vampire Nighthawk[/c] -> Vampire Nighthawk
Call the original card Contract Keeper, and the white one Curator of Dreams.

Embrace imagination.

Lord of YMtC | Ten Rounds Contest Winner

Solphos – A fan set with a 'combo matters' theme

Fool's Gold – The second set of the Solphos block

Call the original card Contract Keeper, and the white one Curator of Dreams.


Ooo, these are even better. I will do that.
How to Autocard
card: [c]cardname[/c]-> [c]Vampire Nighthawk[/c] -> Vampire Nighthawk