The sorcerer

I've noticed recently that we have threads talking about how the sorcerer is overpowered and others about how it's underpowered. How about we just look at the fact that IT'S A DIFFERENT CLASS!

All i am reading is "how dare they make something with a unique feel that doesn't fit into one category"
I'm liking the Sorcerer. Yes it needs some tweaking but its a good first draft, well maybe third.
The Origins thing is good, but lose the "twin soul" thing. Keep the abilities and physical changes as they expend their willpower (or whatever it ends up being called). 
I really look forward to other Origin options and especially being able to create my own and seeing what my players may come up with. 
Yes it needs work but thats the point of all of this. 

The Sorcerers Origins physical changes as they expend willpower is lame. I am sorry but who came up with that. The only Origins listed for Sorcerer is not well done at all, I will wait till we see more before judging the Class as a whole, but please loose the physical change idea.
I'm liking the Sorcerer. Yes it needs some tweaking but its a good first draft, well maybe third.
The Origins thing is good, but lose the "twin soul" thing. Keep the abilities and physical changes as they expend their willpower (or whatever it ends up being called). 
I really look forward to other Origin options and especially being able to create my own and seeing what my players may come up with. 
Yes it needs work but thats the point of all of this. 

The Sorcerers Origins physical changes as they expend willpower is lame. I am sorry but who came up with that. The only Origins listed for Sorcerer is not well done at all, I will wait till we see more before judging the Class as a whole, but please loose the physical change idea.


I personally like the idea of the physical changes but it would probably be better if they removed that fluff. Putting a suggested bit of fluff that suggests  there be physical changes. It shouldn't be baked in fluff but suggested fluff.
I'm liking the Sorcerer. Yes it needs some tweaking but its a good first draft, well maybe third.
The Origins thing is good, but lose the "twin soul" thing. Keep the abilities and physical changes as they expend their willpower (or whatever it ends up being called). 
I really look forward to other Origin options and especially being able to create my own and seeing what my players may come up with. 
Yes it needs work but thats the point of all of this. 

The Sorcerers Origins physical changes as they expend willpower is lame. I am sorry but who came up with that. The only Origins listed for Sorcerer is not well done at all, I will wait till we see more before judging the Class as a whole, but please loose the physical change idea.


I personally like the idea of the physical changes but it would probably be better if they removed that fluff. Putting a suggested bit of fluff that suggests  there be physical changes. It shouldn't be baked in fluff but suggested fluff.



Why?  It's not like it isn't easy to just ignore the fluff.

So why not put it in and in the process a) create something interesting and b) give DMs a good example of what kind of fluff might be interesting for the class.

Carl
I'm liking the Sorcerer. Yes it needs some tweaking but its a good first draft, well maybe third.
The Origins thing is good, but lose the "twin soul" thing. Keep the abilities and physical changes as they expend their willpower (or whatever it ends up being called). 
I really look forward to other Origin options and especially being able to create my own and seeing what my players may come up with. 
Yes it needs work but thats the point of all of this. 

The Sorcerers Origins physical changes as they expend willpower is lame. I am sorry but who came up with that. The only Origins listed for Sorcerer is not well done at all, I will wait till we see more before judging the Class as a whole, but please loose the physical change idea.


I personally like the idea of the physical changes but it would probably be better if they removed that fluff. Putting a suggested bit of fluff that suggests  there be physical changes. It shouldn't be baked in fluff but suggested fluff.



Why?  It's not like it isn't easy to just ignore the fluff.

So why not put it in and in the process a) create something interesting and b) give DMs a good example of what kind of fluff might be interesting for the class.

Carl


That's actually what I was getting at. Except that maybe divorce the fluff a little or make a clear suggestion early in the book about how/ways to use the fluff. Something for newer/rookie DMs.
I'm liking the Sorcerer. Yes it needs some tweaking but its a good first draft, well maybe third.
The Origins thing is good, but lose the "twin soul" thing. Keep the abilities and physical changes as they expend their willpower (or whatever it ends up being called). 
I really look forward to other Origin options and especially being able to create my own and seeing what my players may come up with. 
Yes it needs work but thats the point of all of this. 

The Sorcerers Origins physical changes as they expend willpower is lame. I am sorry but who came up with that. The only Origins listed for Sorcerer is not well done at all, I will wait till we see more before judging the Class as a whole, but please loose the physical change idea.


I personally like the idea of the physical changes but it would probably be better if they removed that fluff. Putting a suggested bit of fluff that suggests  there be physical changes. It shouldn't be baked in fluff but suggested fluff.



Why?  It's not like it isn't easy to just ignore the fluff.

So why not put it in and in the process a) create something interesting and b) give DMs a good example of what kind of fluff might be interesting for the class.

Carl


That's actually what I was getting at. Except that maybe divorce the fluff a little or make a clear suggestion early in the book about how/ways to use the fluff. Something for newer/rookie DMs.



Just put the fluff in italics above the mechanics and place a line in the PHB that says you can change the text in italics to be anything within reason to describe how the mechanics works within the game as long as it doesn't change what the mechanics does...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I'm liking the Sorcerer. Yes it needs some tweaking but its a good first draft, well maybe third.
The Origins thing is good, but lose the "twin soul" thing. Keep the abilities and physical changes as they expend their willpower (or whatever it ends up being called). 
I really look forward to other Origin options and especially being able to create my own and seeing what my players may come up with. 
Yes it needs work but thats the point of all of this. 

The Sorcerers Origins physical changes as they expend willpower is lame. I am sorry but who came up with that. The only Origins listed for Sorcerer is not well done at all, I will wait till we see more before judging the Class as a whole, but please loose the physical change idea.


I personally like the idea of the physical changes but it would probably be better if they removed that fluff. Putting a suggested bit of fluff that suggests  there be physical changes. It shouldn't be baked in fluff but suggested fluff.



Why?  It's not like it isn't easy to just ignore the fluff.

So why not put it in and in the process a) create something interesting and b) give DMs a good example of what kind of fluff might be interesting for the class.

Carl


That's actually what I was getting at. Except that maybe divorce the fluff a little or make a clear suggestion early in the book about how/ways to use the fluff. Something for newer/rookie DMs.



Just put the fluff in italics above the mechanics and place a line in the PHB that says you can change the text in italics to be anything within reason to describe how the mechanics works within the game as long as it doesn't change what the mechanics does...


This really just takes up useless space just because some people want a stat block instead of a fluffy ability. I don't really care what happens either way, it just seems like extra page space taken up for no reason :P
My two copper.
I am fine if others like it from a fluff point of view. But as a erdana">mechanic its not great, why should the Sorcerer get new powers just because it spent its others. I like the Warlocks physical changes in the playtest as it does not end up being meaningless because it resets every day, that to me is the biggest problem I have with the Sorcerer, the reset mechanic.
I'm liking the Sorcerer. Yes it needs some tweaking but its a good first draft, well maybe third.
The Origins thing is good, but lose the "twin soul" thing. Keep the abilities and physical changes as they expend their willpower (or whatever it ends up being called). 
I really look forward to other Origin options and especially being able to create my own and seeing what my players may come up with. 
Yes it needs work but thats the point of all of this. 

The Sorcerers Origins physical changes as they expend willpower is lame. I am sorry but who came up with that. The only Origins listed for Sorcerer is not well done at all, I will wait till we see more before judging the Class as a whole, but please loose the physical change idea.


I personally like the idea of the physical changes but it would probably be better if they removed that fluff. Putting a suggested bit of fluff that suggests  there be physical changes. It shouldn't be baked in fluff but suggested fluff.



Why?  It's not like it isn't easy to just ignore the fluff.

So why not put it in and in the process a) create something interesting and b) give DMs a good example of what kind of fluff might be interesting for the class.

Carl


That's actually what I was getting at. Except that maybe divorce the fluff a little or make a clear suggestion early in the book about how/ways to use the fluff. Something for newer/rookie DMs.



Just put the fluff in italics above the mechanics and place a line in the PHB that says you can change the text in italics to be anything within reason to describe how the mechanics works within the game as long as it doesn't change what the mechanics does...


This really just takes up useless space just because some people want a stat block instead of a fluffy ability. I don't really care what happens either way, it just seems like extra page space taken up for no reason :P



Actually if you separate out fluff from mechanics it should take about the same space. Even if it takes slightly more space I'd rather things be clear and refluffable than ambiguous and hard to refluff.
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I am fine if others like it from a fluff point of view. But as a erdana">mechanic its not great, why should the Sorcerer get new powers just because it spent its others. I like the Warlocks physical changes in the playtest as it does not end up being meaningless because it resets every day, that to me is the biggest problem I have with the Sorcerer, the reset mechanic.



Yeah, I'd rather they allow the Sorcerer to burn extra Willpower they don't have after they run out for a permanent physical change something like a -1 to charisma or disadvantage on charisma based checks in exchange for a +2 to damage or something, until they take an extended rest...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I am fine if others like it from a fluff point of view. But as a erdana">mechanic its not great, why should the Sorcerer get new powers just because it spent its others. I like the Warlocks physical changes in the playtest as it does not end up being meaningless because it resets every day, that to me is the biggest problem I have with the Sorcerer, the reset mechanic.



Yeah, I'd rather they allow the Sorcerer to burn extra Willpower they don't have after they run out for a permanent physical change something like a -1 to charisma or disadvantage on charisma based checks in exchange for a +2 to damage or something, until they take an extended rest...


I think a trade off like this may be a better way to work the changes. I'm more for causing a Disadvantage to charisma, except for Intimidation checks, as you be come big, scaly and creepy looking.
I am fine if others like it from a fluff point of view. But as a erdana">mechanic its not great, why should the Sorcerer get new powers just because it spent its others. I like the Warlocks physical changes in the playtest as it does not end up being meaningless because it resets every day, that to me is the biggest problem I have with the Sorcerer, the reset mechanic.



Yeah, I'd rather they allow the Sorcerer to burn extra Willpower they don't have after they run out for a permanent physical change something like a -1 to charisma or disadvantage on charisma based checks in exchange for a +2 to damage or something, until they take an extended rest...



A permanent change, until an extended rest?

If you are saying you want the change to stay until you take an extended rest, that's already how it works. You burn X willpower and Y happens until extended rest, all you'd be adding is a penalty for using your abilities. Which I find a little unfair, but I'll get to that in a second.

If you mean they will lose a point off their charisma score, or gain a disadvantage to charisma checks permanently then absolutely no. Especially since Charisma is their primary stat, it'd be like a rogue losing Dex or a cleric losing Wis... simply because they used their abilities.

Also a side note, right now most of the changes are fairly unnoticeable. Hands become "claw-like" and you look slightly more imposing, scales cover large sections of your body "Chest, arms, legs, stomach, back... all covered by clothing and armor" Later on I feel we will get bigger changes and then we may start seeing some sort of more overt disadvantage. However, even if your face gets covered in scales I would not advocate any penalty to charisma. Charisma is not how pretty you look, it is your social skills and force of personality. Also I think dragonborn should be added as a core race, so seeing a guy with scales won't end up freaking people out as much as you think.

I can see the logic behind wanting to balance the sorcerer a little more, he seems rather powerful when he gets to level 4 and has the Dragon Scales ability, but until then I find them to be fairly well balanced. +2 damage on melee isn't huge, in fact considering their strength score might not be so hot, it probably just averages them out. Being able to fight and cast spells is great, I get it, but adding these small abilities when they run out of spells doesn't take things too far in my opionin.
A permanent change, until an extended rest?

If you are saying you want the change to stay until you take an extended rest, that's already how it works. You burn X willpower and Y happens until extended rest, all you'd be adding is a penalty for using your abilities. Which I find a little unfair, but I'll get to that in a second.

If you mean they will lose a point off their charisma score, or gain a disadvantage to charisma checks permanently then absolutely no. Especially since Charisma is their primary stat, it'd be like a rogue losing Dex or a cleric losing Wis... simply because they used their abilities.

Also a side note, right now most of the changes are fairly unnoticeable. Hands become "claw-like" and you look slightly more imposing, scales cover large sections of your body "Chest, arms, legs, stomach, back... all covered by clothing and armor" Later on I feel we will get bigger changes and then we may start seeing some sort of more overt disadvantage. However, even if your face gets covered in scales I would not advocate any penalty to charisma. Charisma is not how pretty you look, it is your social skills and force of personality. Also I think dragonborn should be added as a core race, so seeing a guy with scales won't end up freaking people out as much as you think.

I can see the logic behind wanting to balance the sorcerer a little more, he seems rather powerful when he gets to level 4 and has the Dragon Scales ability, but until then I find them to be fairly well balanced. +2 damage on melee isn't huge, in fact considering their strength score might not be so hot, it probably just averages them out. Being able to fight and cast spells is great, I get it, but adding these small abilities when they run out of spells doesn't take things too far in my opionin.


I know that's how it works but not an actual -1 to the stat permanently. The reason I think a disadvantage on Charisma checks, sans Intimidation, (applying to various origins not just Dragon) is because you are a little off in appearance/temperament/aura or something. Something people would find unsettling. If Dragonborn, which I think as a race is neat, would be one thing while a low Willpower Dragon Sorcerer would be another thing entirely.
This is something I think for higher levels, say somewhere in the 7-10 range, before it kicks in.  

Difference between a composed Sorcerer (read full Willpower) and an fatigued, not much left Sorcerer (read, low to no Willpower) would be the cause of the disadvantage. The composed one radiating an aura of calm and control, because he/she is in control and calm. Which maybe give advantage on some Charisma checks when at full Willpower. While the exhausted Sorcerer, whose magical heritage is slipping from his or her mouth (say dagon's breath fire or lightning) would unsettle those near him or her. Additionally, this person is tired and most likely cranky, making social situations difficult. Hence, disadvantage. This should come in at around 25%-10% of total Willpower, not right after spending one or two points (I think 10% would be good).
Heck, you could have a disadvantage issue with other kind of origins. Say, disadvantage on Dex checks for an Earth Elemental origin when they run low but have advantage on Con checks at full power.  
That makes a lot more sense, but the origin does already cover this in the fluff.

 "When your willpower is depleted and your heritage transforms you, you might manifest the personality traits of a dragon, as well as draconic physical traits. You might become both acquisitive and proud and, depending on your heritage, behave like a brutal savage, an arrogant tyrant, or a haughty noble."

Still for people who don't role-play very well a disadvantage to diplomacy and such would work just as well I guess.
I am fine if others like it from a fluff point of view. But as a erdana">mechanic its not great, why should the Sorcerer get new powers just because it spent its others. I like the Warlocks physical changes in the playtest as it does not end up being meaningless because it resets every day, that to me is the biggest problem I have with the Sorcerer, the reset mechanic.



Yeah, I'd rather they allow the Sorcerer to burn extra Willpower they don't have after they run out for a permanent physical change something like a -1 to charisma or disadvantage on charisma based checks in exchange for a +2 to damage or something, until they take an extended rest...



A permanent change, until an extended rest?

If you are saying you want the change to stay until you take an extended rest, that's already how it works. You burn X willpower and Y happens until extended rest, all you'd be adding is a penalty for using your abilities. Which I find a little unfair, but I'll get to that in a second.

If you mean they will lose a point off their charisma score, or gain a disadvantage to charisma checks permanently then absolutely no. Especially since Charisma is their primary stat, it'd be like a rogue losing Dex or a cleric losing Wis... simply because they used their abilities.

Also a side note, right now most of the changes are fairly unnoticeable. Hands become "claw-like" and you look slightly more imposing, scales cover large sections of your body "Chest, arms, legs, stomach, back... all covered by clothing and armor" Later on I feel we will get bigger changes and then we may start seeing some sort of more overt disadvantage. However, even if your face gets covered in scales I would not advocate any penalty to charisma. Charisma is not how pretty you look, it is your social skills and force of personality. Also I think dragonborn should be added as a core race, so seeing a guy with scales won't end up freaking people out as much as you think.

I can see the logic behind wanting to balance the sorcerer a little more, he seems rather powerful when he gets to level 4 and has the Dragon Scales ability, but until then I find them to be fairly well balanced. +2 damage on melee isn't huge, in fact considering their strength score might not be so hot, it probably just averages them out. Being able to fight and cast spells is great, I get it, but adding these small abilities when they run out of spells doesn't take things too far in my opionin.



Nope, you missed what I said. After they hit 0 Willpower they don't change. They only change when they then choose to use a spell or power with a Willpower cost. As in going below 0 on Willpower. Maybe for every point they go below they get a -1 to charisma or something and a +1 to strength or something. Then after an extended rest it would go away...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Eh, going into negatives sounds needlessly complicated o_O
My two copper.
Eh, going into negatives sounds needlessly complicated o_O



They wouldn't actually track it. They would just get a -1 to charisma every time they use a power when they hit 0 Willpower. This would then disappear after they take an extended rest...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Eh, going into negatives sounds needlessly complicated o_O



They wouldn't actually track it. They would just get a -1 to charisma every time they use a power when they hit 0 Willpower. This would then disappear after they take an extended rest...



So after casting 3 spells a level 1 sorcerer could cast another three, their charisma score would then drop from 18 to 15? or their modifier would drop from +4 to +1? Or they would simply take a -1 to all charisma rolls until an extended rest?

No matter what they answer is I'd say this is way too powerful if I understand you correctly. Being able to continously cast spell like that would easily be broke and taken advantage of. The way it is now is more flavorful and much more balanced.
Eh, going into negatives sounds needlessly complicated o_O



They wouldn't actually track it. They would just get a -1 to charisma every time they use a power when they hit 0 Willpower. This would then disappear after they take an extended rest...



So after casting 3 spells a level 1 sorcerer could cast another three, their charisma score would then drop from 18 to 15? or their modifier would drop from +4 to +1? Or they would simply take a -1 to all charisma rolls until an extended rest?

No matter what they answer is I'd say this is way too powerful if I understand you correctly. Being able to continously cast spell like that would easily be broke and taken advantage of. The way it is now is more flavorful and much more balanced.



Not really, if their spell DCs and their spell attacks go down every time they cast eventually they will hit the point at which they can't do anything effectively and it will impact other things like social checks...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Eh, going into negatives sounds needlessly complicated o_O



They wouldn't actually track it. They would just get a -1 to charisma every time they use a power when they hit 0 Willpower. This would then disappear after they take an extended rest...



So after casting 3 spells a level 1 sorcerer could cast another three, their charisma score would then drop from 18 to 15? or their modifier would drop from +4 to +1? Or they would simply take a -1 to all charisma rolls until an extended rest?

No matter what they answer is I'd say this is way too powerful if I understand you correctly. Being able to continously cast spell like that would easily be broke and taken advantage of. The way it is now is more flavorful and much more balanced.



Not really, if their spell DCs and their spell attacks go down every time they cast eventually they will hit the point at which they can't do anything effectively and it will impact other things like social checks...



But not every spell has a spell DC that matters to it's effectiveness.

Web, the only spell DC is in the check to break free and be unrestrained. Would still restrain on first turn, and catch more people. Stinking Cloud, no spell DC at all. Sleep, no spell DC. Shield, no spell DC Cause Fear, no spell DC. Burning hands, no spell DC. And on and on. I know some of these aren't currently on the sorcerer's list but I doubt they will stay off for long. Your system would allow them to cast an additional 16-18 points of spells at peak effieciency, the only penalty being they would not be able to influence anyone in the caves, and they'd have to take an extended rest before heading back to town.

I don't see the balance here.
Eh, going into negatives sounds needlessly complicated o_O



They wouldn't actually track it. They would just get a -1 to charisma every time they use a power when they hit 0 Willpower. This would then disappear after they take an extended rest...



So after casting 3 spells a level 1 sorcerer could cast another three, their charisma score would then drop from 18 to 15? or their modifier would drop from +4 to +1? Or they would simply take a -1 to all charisma rolls until an extended rest?

No matter what they answer is I'd say this is way too powerful if I understand you correctly. Being able to continously cast spell like that would easily be broke and taken advantage of. The way it is now is more flavorful and much more balanced.



Not really, if their spell DCs and their spell attacks go down every time they cast eventually they will hit the point at which they can't do anything effectively and it will impact other things like social checks...



But not every spell has a spell DC that matters to it's effectiveness.

Web, the only spell DC is in the check to break free and be unrestrained. Would still restrain on first turn, and catch more people. Stinking Cloud, no spell DC at all. Sleep, no spell DC. Shield, no spell DC Cause Fear, no spell DC. Burning hands, no spell DC. And on and on. I know some of these aren't currently on the sorcerer's list but I doubt they will stay off for long. Your system would allow them to cast an additional 16-18 points of spells at peak effieciency, the only penalty being they would not be able to influence anyone in the caves, and they'd have to take an extended rest before heading back to town.

I don't see the balance here.



You may want to go back and read how the magic system works. Stinking Cloud has a spell save DC for half damage. Half of 2d10 average is 5.5. Sleep sucks as it is now so spamming that one is not a problem. Cause Fear allows a save which uses the casters DC. Burning Hands has a spell save DC for half damage. Half of 4d4 is 5. All of  those damage spells do less damage than their average damage with a half way decent weapon.

If you don't see the balance here its because you don't understand how the spell system works...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Ah, the dexterity save is based off of the spell DC, you are right I did miss that.

However, hitting five kobolds for half 4d4 or full 4d4 doesn't make much difference, they have 3 hp, they are going to be crispy either way. What is that average, about 4 points of damage? Add in the sorcerer's own powers and I still say your penalty is laughable next to the power you are doling out.

A human sorcer with the standard array will have a charisma of 18 (start at 15, add 2 for human, 1 for sorcerer). Their spell DC starts at 14 (70% chance of monster with no modifier failing save). They get 3 spells before they run out of willpower. Using your system they continue casting. After one spell they drop to a 17 Cha and their DC falls to 13 (65%). Two more spells and they drop to 15 Cha and the DC is 12 (60%). Another 2 we are at 13 Cha and 11 DC (55%), finally we get to 11 Cha and DC 10 (50%). The sorcerer has cast 8 spells or used 8 abilities, not including cantrips and are only just now at a 50/50 chance, granted most monsters have modifiers. We'll use a goblin who gets a +1 to dex saving throws. That bumps all my percentages down by 5%. However, a sorcerer can still cast another 10 spells, gradually occuring penalties to the DC, so he'd probably stick with use his dragon strength +2d6 to melee attacks, which has incurred no penalties. Granted Burning hands is not so effective, but shield and dragon strength remain unchanged. The only true penalty now comes from social encounters, unlikely if the sorcerer is still finding fights after casting so many spells. And this is only 1st level. Get to 4th and it gets even worse.

I don't see where the balance is. It just seems like your system turns the sorcerer into a one man army.
I really like how the magic inside him/her surfaces more and more as the sorcerer uses it. This is a great idea, that can lead to very entertaining roleplay and good game mechanics. As many have already said on this thread, the sorcerer now feels different from other classes and that's great.

However the current packet of rules allows us to build an OP sorcerer defender. This is not only due to the draconic heritage design, but to some combos*:

- The disavantage granted on attacks mechanic (from the defender specialty) combined with the relatively low bonus to hit/dmg output of the current monsters make  it nearly impossible for monster to hit.*

- Some spells (aid, prayer, shield, mirror image) and class powers (Protect, Dragon scales) grant even more survavibility to the sorcerer, turning him into the ultimate tank.*

Reducing the ressources (willpower/spells/powers) of the  sorcerer is, in my humble opinion, not the right thing to do. It will just withdraw the fun from the class. Adressing the above issues and general balance of the game however will probably fix the "OP" sorcerer.*

EDIT: *please note that this is also relevant for the fighter protector and the warpriest cleric.
Honestly its not the sorcerer at 5th lvl that has me worried, he looks fine there. Its the high lvl sorcerer that can cast 20 9th lvl spells. While we havent seen high lvl yet the way his will power increases, he isnt gonna use any of his lower lvl spells when he can use high lvl spells and get instant heritage buffs from 1 powerfull spell.

These new forums are terrible.

I misspell words on purpose too draw out grammer nazis.

Ah, the dexterity save is based off of the spell DC, you are right I did miss that.

However, hitting five kobolds for half 4d4 or full 4d4 doesn't make much difference, they have 3 hp, they are going to be crispy either way. What is that average, about 4 points of damage? Add in the sorcerer's own powers and I still say your penalty is laughable next to the power you are doling out.

A human sorcer with the standard array will have a charisma of 18 (start at 15, add 2 for human, 1 for sorcerer). Their spell DC starts at 14 (70% chance of monster with no modifier failing save). They get 3 spells before they run out of willpower. Using your system they continue casting. After one spell they drop to a 17 Cha and their DC falls to 13 (65%). Two more spells and they drop to 15 Cha and the DC is 12 (60%). Another 2 we are at 13 Cha and 11 DC (55%), finally we get to 11 Cha and DC 10 (50%). The sorcerer has cast 8 spells or used 8 abilities, not including cantrips and are only just now at a 50/50 chance, granted most monsters have modifiers. We'll use a goblin who gets a +1 to dex saving throws. That bumps all my percentages down by 5%. However, a sorcerer can still cast another 10 spells, gradually occuring penalties to the DC, so he'd probably stick with use his dragon strength +2d6 to melee attacks, which has incurred no penalties. Granted Burning hands is not so effective, but shield and dragon strength remain unchanged. The only true penalty now comes from social encounters, unlikely if the sorcerer is still finding fights after casting so many spells. And this is only 1st level. Get to 4th and it gets even worse.

I don't see where the balance is. It just seems like your system turns the sorcerer into a one man army.



Increase the penalty to -2 on any checks, saves, DCs or attack rolls that require charisma per use. That way they can get off 1-2 uses before their stat goes down to pitiful levels...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
This doesn't change the fact that a lower charisma score will not negatively impact a Dragon Sorcerer enough to allow the extra spells. With a negative -2 penalty instead of -1 you halve the number of spells, giving you a total closer to 11 spells before needing to stop. Even if a monster makes the save every time, they still take half damage, and shield and Dragon strength use no Charisma modifiers at all.

And actually looking at the durations of those spells makes it worse. Dragon Strength lasts for a minute (10 rounds) and Shield lasts for 10 minutes (100 rounds) meaning they probably only cast one each at the begininng of battle (assuming shield doesn't carry over from one fight to the next). Dragon strength gives you 1d8+2d6+Str if you are wielding a longsword. And that is after blasting at least double the number of burning hands or cause fears that the wizard can use.

I love the Sorcerer, but I still say your system is way to broken. It is cool in concept, maybe as a feat that allows sorcerers to take a stat penalty for an additional spell or two, but having it as the main system will not work.

Hey guys, I have invented a new but interesting feat if anyone is interested: Deduce. To deduce a spell with this metamagic feat, you don’t need to prepare spells any further in advance like preparation time (is deduced), power level (is deduced); but here’s the benefits of this feat; preparation time is reduced to a minimum of less than half the time needed, including remembering a spell modified by this feat, and all other numeric variables are deduced. Let me know what you think okay? Sorry I’ve not been back, so feel free to quote me on this.

I don't understand how you're using the word "deduce."  To me, that means I'm trying to guess what spell someone is casting based on its components.  Like, if I saw someone casting a spell, I could deduce that it was Fireball.

And that's already covered by an Intelligence/Magical Lore check. 
This doesn't change the fact that a lower charisma score will not negatively impact a Dragon Sorcerer enough to allow the extra spells. With a negative -2 penalty instead of -1 you halve the number of spells, giving you a total closer to 11 spells before needing to stop. Even if a monster makes the save every time, they still take half damage, and shield and Dragon strength use no Charisma modifiers at all.

And actually looking at the durations of those spells makes it worse. Dragon Strength lasts for a minute (10 rounds) and Shield lasts for 10 minutes (100 rounds) meaning they probably only cast one each at the begininng of battle (assuming shield doesn't carry over from one fight to the next). Dragon strength gives you 1d8+2d6+Str if you are wielding a longsword. And that is after blasting at least double the number of burning hands or cause fears that the wizard can use.

I love the Sorcerer, but I still say your system is way to broken. It is cool in concept, maybe as a feat that allows sorcerers to take a stat penalty for an additional spell or two, but having it as the main system will not work.



dragon strength is for the next attack within a minute
Yeah, I thoughgt so at first but the more I look at it it seems poorly worded. It does say the next time you hit within a minute. I could see an arguement either way, but it probably is supposed to be only one attack
It does say the next time you hit within a minute. I could see an arguement either way, but it probably is supposed to be only one attack


im sorry but how could you possibly see that any other way?
I've seen some very nitpicky arguements, for this one, probably they would argue that it does not say the spell dissipates after you connect and make your attack, and increasing your strength for a full minute, but losing it if you decide to hit a creature makes little sense because your muscles are still magically enhanced. Or something along those lines. I'm not saying it is right, just that an arguement could potentially be made.

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