The sorcerer

I've noticed recently that we have threads talking about how the sorcerer is overpowered and others about how it's underpowered. How about we just look at the fact that IT'S A DIFFERENT CLASS!

All i am reading is "how dare they make something with a unique feel that doesn't fit into one category"
They need to have the discussion though, without it there would be no improvement. The desiigners will figure out what people like and add in more of that while at the same time taking away what is not liked.

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I actually like how magic affects the body for these none taught classes and its a lot better flavor than "its a wizard, but...".
 
Ant Farm
but the problem with their "discussion" is they are talking about it as compared to other classes and not analyzing the class as an individual
What I did not like was the 3.x Sorcerer that was essentially a charismatic wizard with slower spell progression.
The new sorcerer (or I should rather say Next Sorcerer ) at least feels like a different class.
Yeah I really like teh sorcerer and warlock they feel like totally different spell casting classes and I feel add a lot for feel 
The issue in my opinion is that it can be as powerful as a wizard with more AC and HP.
It can also be at the same time more powerful than a fighter when shield is up.

In my opinion the Dragon Socerer should loose the +1 to hit and the spell sheld.  
Personally, as I have stated elsewhere,  I think that the draconic heritage's extra armor, weapons and +1 weapon bonus should be moved to a specialty.  There is nothing inherent to a bloodline that says training in weapon and armor.  If someone wants a martial sorcerer, regardless of heritage, let them take the specialty and leave all of the heritage non-martial by default.  This would keep the class, at the least, non-martial like the 3e class while allowing a martial option like the 3e Unearthed Arcana Battle Sorcerer.

and, yes, I am for giving  something else to the draconic heritage to make up for the loss.  
What I did not like was the 3.x Sorcerer that was essentially a charismatic wizard with slower spell progression.



that is what I did like about it. It fit the innate spellcasters with which I am familar from fantasy books, tv, and movies. I ditched the Wizard.

And, for heritage flavor, there were heritage feats which could be ignored by the player based concept or banned by DM based on campaign flavor without throwing out the whole class.

Personally, I liked the metamagic feat sorcerer house rule for 3e and the use of heritage feats. By using feats, players that did not want to manifest heritage aspects or only some of them had other options.  Then again, I don't need to have every dragon sorcerer manifest claws and breath weapons. In some campaigns, it is over the top and out of place.
In my playtests they actually fared a lot weaker in combat than both wizards and fighters. Wizards due to the lack of versatility not created not only by not being able to memorize spells, but also in their spell list, which is devoid of many staple spells like sleep. They also get the slower level progression on their spell lists as well.

Fighters come out on top because of Combat Superiority, plain and simple, and the sorcerer can't touch that with spells, save an occasional hit that does more damage. The fighter gets extra damage or damage absorption every round.

I have 7 players in my game... 2 fighters (one archer, one slayer), 1 rogue, 1 warlock, 1 cleric, and 2 sorcerers in my last session, and even with 2 sorcs, they couldn't touch the power and versatility of the wizard.
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I think that at this level they are OK.  But experience with trying to shoehorn spell point systems into the D&D magic system have me concerned.


The D&D spells are not currently balanced relative to each other in any way that can be translated into spell points.  The spells of the same level are too vaired and the jumps between level are not consistant.  A spell point class can work - but it requires careful attention to the spell list, careful balancing of the spells on that list (including identifying the problematic spells of the wizard list and leaving them off) - and a lot of luck.


One change I would like to see would be for the Sorcerer to be restricte to Single Target spells.


This has three benefits:
1)  The hardest spells to balance in a spell point system are the Area of Effet spells with their baility to hit mulciple targets.  THis avoides that dificulty.
]2)  It creates a clearer separation between the sorcerer and the wizard; their spells have less overlap and they are each specialists within their own niche (I likewise thnk that wizards ought to not have any single target evocation spells - channeling such great power makes it difficult to focus it so narrowly).

3)  Some area of effect spells are close attacks (i.e. Burning Hands).  Part of what balances BH in the wizard's case i the fact that he has to end up adjacent to the creature, placing himself in harm's way;  The sorcerer is a heavy armor wearing class and wants to be adjacent to the enemy - he has no reason not to run up and spam burnig hands every round (till he runs out of willpower anyway).  This changes the relative balalnce of the spell.


(I also think they ought to wear Medium armor not heavy armor, but that has more to do with my pre-conceptions than it does actual balance issue.  I jsut don't see them as a heavy armor class.   

             

Carl
The sorcerer itself will depend on how many different hertiages are eventually made. I'm hoping that at least 3 are included in the first core book.
I'm liking the Sorcerer. Yes it needs some tweaking but its a good first draft, well maybe third.
The Origins thing is good, but lose the "twin soul" thing. Keep the abilities and physical changes as they expend their willpower (or whatever it ends up being called). 
I really look forward to other Origin options and especially being able to create my own and seeing what my players may come up with. 
Yes it needs work but thats the point of all of this. 
(I also think they ought to wear Medium armor not heavy armor, but that has more to do with my pre-conceptions than it does actual balance issue.  I jsut don't see them as a heavy armor class.


This is most likely a balancing issue for AC, since the dragon sorcerer will likely have high Charisma and Strength.  In a point-buy system like we'll probably see for organized play, that means the sorcerer will not generally have a high Dex.  In such a case, the Heavy Armor, which grants a set AC rather than one modified by Dex, is a better choice for defenses.

(I also think they ought to wear Medium armor not heavy armor, but that has more to do with my pre-conceptions than it does actual balance issue.  I jsut don't see them as a heavy armor class.


This is most likely a balancing issue for AC, since the dragon sorcerer will likely have high Charisma and Strength.  In a point-buy system like we'll probably see for organized play, that means the sorcerer will not generally have a high Dex.  In such a case, the Heavy Armor, which grants a set AC rather than one modified by Dex, is a better choice for defenses.


You are probably right.  As I said -it's more an issue with my preconceptions than it is one of actual balance.

Of course - they could change it so that he uses Medium armor and give him finesse weapons - that would fit more with my own conceptions and make him compenent to stand in or near the front line.

Carl
Personally, as I have stated elsewhere,  I think that the draconic heritage's extra armor, weapons and +1 weapon bonus should be moved to a specialty.  There is nothing inherent to a bloodline that says training in weapon and armor.  If someone wants a martial sorcerer, regardless of heritage, let them take the specialty and leave all of the heritage non-martial by default.  This would keep the class, at the least, non-martial like the 3e class while allowing a martial option like the 3e Unearthed Arcana Battle Sorcerer.

and, yes, I am for giving  something else to the draconic heritage to make up for the loss.  



The problem with this is that sorcerer needs too many things to change it from spellcaster to gish. This would be WAY too much to shove into a specialty without it being too spread out, and therefore feel slow and useless. The way it is right now it feels gish from level 1, which is good. No one wants to wait till level 6 to finally feel like a gish. Not when it could have have been at level 1. I realize this was the case in 3.5, at least for arcane casters. But if you could have had a class that was like it from level 1, would you have played that instead? Yes. Leave it be imo

edit: Also, they are leaving specialties for more "interesting" things than proficiencies. Although this is partially countereted by the fact that they made toughness a speciality feat, but that is another problem for another thread.
My two copper.
How would the class feel and play if their Claws manifestation gave them a decent natural weapon - and their spell list was stacked with touch spells that did damage on top of their natural weapon melee damage?
"

Carl
In my playtests they actually fared a lot weaker in combat than both wizards and fighters. Wizards due to the lack of versatility not created not only by not being able to memorize spells, but also in their spell list, which is devoid of many staple spells like sleep. They also get the slower level progression on their spell lists as well.

Fighters come out on top because of Combat Superiority, plain and simple, and the sorcerer can't touch that with spells, save an occasional hit that does more damage. The fighter gets extra damage or damage absorption every round.

I have 7 players in my game... 2 fighters (one archer, one slayer), 1 rogue, 1 warlock, 1 cleric, and 2 sorcerers in my last session, and even with 2 sorcs, they couldn't touch the power and versatility of the wizard.



I've run the numbers in my "Comparing the Fighter, Wizard, Sorcerer, and Warlock" thread and they are literally on the bottom of single target and multi-target damage list...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Personally, as I have stated elsewhere,  I think that the draconic heritage's extra armor, weapons and +1 weapon bonus should be moved to a specialty.  There is nothing inherent to a bloodline that says training in weapon and armor.  If someone wants a martial sorcerer, regardless of heritage, let them take the specialty and leave all of the heritage non-martial by default.  This would keep the class, at the least, non-martial like the 3e class while allowing a martial option like the 3e Unearthed Arcana Battle Sorcerer.

and, yes, I am for giving  something else to the draconic heritage to make up for the loss.  



The problem with this is that sorcerer needs too many things to change it from spell caster to gish. This would be WAY too much to shove into a specialty without it being too spread out, and therefore feel slow and useless. The way it is right now it feels gish from level 1, which is good. No one wants to wait till level 6 to finally feel like a gish. Not when it could have have been at level 1. I realize this was the case in 3.5, at least for arcane casters. But if you could have had a class that was like it from level 1, would you have played that instead? Yes. Leave it be imo

edit: Also, they are leaving specialties for more "interesting" things than proficiencies. Although this is partially countered by the fact that they made toughness a specialty feat, but that is another problem for another thread.



Well they can feel like a gish all day long, but they will be overshadowed by every other class in the game if they keep what they have now...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I don't know how on _earth_ anyone can claim the Sorcerer is underpowered.

19 AC + rerolls with Defender + capable perfomance at any range (melee 1d8+8/100 ft range 1d6+7 at will + conditions is very nice) + encounter ruining 'clinch' spells like Cause Fear (totally broken spell btw) = ownage.

It's not different, it's overpowered at least so far as combat goes, even if not vastly so. Yes the Rogue can do 3950394053 damage conditionally, but the Sorcerer can survive and deal with almost anything, under almost any circumstances.
I don't know how on _earth_ anyone can claim the Sorcerer is underpowered.

19 AC + rerolls with Defender + capable perfomance at any range (melee 1d8+8/100 ft range 1d6+7 at will + conditions is very nice) + encounter ruining 'clinch' spells like Cause Fear (totally broken spell btw) = ownage.

It's not different, it's overpowered at least so far as combat goes, even if not vastly so. Yes the Rogue can do 3950394053 damage conditionally, but the Sorcerer can survive and deal with almost anything, under almost any circumstances.



I was talking DPR wise, now with utility it will probably be a distant second to the Wizard who is currently about 200% above everyone else.
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
The issue in my opinion is that it can be as powerful as a wizard with more AC and HP.
It can also be at the same time more powerful than a fighter when shield is up.

In my opinion the Dragon Socerer should loose the +1 to hit and the spell sheld.  



Compare to a Cleric...  are you saying clerics are too powerful?
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I was talking DPR wise, now with utility it will probably be a distant second to the Wizard who is currently about 200% above everyone else.



Sure, I wasn't responding to you specifically, just the notion others have voiced that the Sorc could be considered in any way underpowered.

That said I don't see how the Wizard is so vastly superior given its incredible comparative fragility, that it can cast so few spells and the fact that the Sorcerer can spam the best encounter shattering spell (usually Cause Fear/Web) for the situation all day. The wizard may be more versatile from a utility perspective certainly, but the Sorc more than makes up for that in combat.

Granted, when the roster of spells expands the Wizard will probably be more powerful as it can take better advantage of its Spellbook feature, but as is? I'll take the Sorcerer, easily.
While shield of Faith Matches Shield i missed where the Cleric gets +1 to hit in melee?
While shield of Faith Matches Shield i missed where the Cleric gets +1 to hit in melee?


I havent analysed the Cleric fully. But the cleric and all there allies may achieve that with a bless spell.(boom everyone)

Ofcourse the clerical Crusaders Strike, is also better than the similar Sorcerors Dragon Strength.

I think there is a lot of juggling. 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Bless requires a spell and lasts 1min, casting it and Shield of Faith blows all but your domain spell for the day in one ecounter. I am also compairing to the War Domain just to equal the armour and weapon proficancy.

Dragon sorceres get +1 to hit all day every day for free. They could cast Shield in three different enounters, most of the work day. Once they run out of spells they get +2 damage for the day. 

Crusaders Strike is equal as Dragon Strengh remains if you miss, Crusaiders Strike deals 1d6 on a miss. as long as you hit in the next minute the damage is equal and lets face it its hard to miss in this play test.

Naturaly there is one thing a Cleric can do over the Sorcerer and that is chanel divinity.

Sorry I love me some Cleric but the Sorcerer is, in my opionion, stronger than it.

 
Bless requires a spell and lasts 1min, casting it and Shield of Faith blows all but your domain spell for the day in one ecounter. I am also compairing to the War Domain just to equal the armour and weapon proficancy.

Dragon sorceres get +1 to hit all day every day for free. They could cast Shield in three different enounters, most of the work day. Once they run out of spells they get +2 damage for the day. 

Crusaders Strike is equal as Dragon Strengh remains if you miss, Crusaiders Strike deals 1d6 on a miss. as long as you hit in the next minute the damage is equal and lets face it its hard to miss in this play test

 



If its hard to miss the plus 1 is uber valuable because? heck right now enemies go down so easily higher damage is of questionable value.  
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I was talking DPR wise, now with utility it will probably be a distant second to the Wizard who is currently about 200% above everyone else.



Sure, I wasn't responding to you specifically, just the notion others have voiced that the Sorc could be considered in any way underpowered.

That said I don't see how the Wizard is so vastly superior given its incredible comparative fragility, that it can cast so few spells and the fact that the Sorcerer can spam the best encounter shattering spell (usually Cause Fear/Web) for the situation all day. The wizard may be more versatile from a utility perspective certainly, but the Sorc more than makes up for that in combat.

Granted, when the roster of spells expands the Wizard will probably be more powerful as it can take better advantage of its Spellbook feature, but as is? I'll take the Sorcerer, easily.



Well the Wizard is powerful because they can use about 1 daily spell per encounter at level 1 (missing 1 encounter). By level 5 they can use 3 daily spells per encounter. With each of these being encounter ender spells it really adds up. I estimate that by level 7-8 they will be able to use 1 daily spell per round every round of every encounter:

level   Spell Level
         1st   2nd   3rd   4th   5th
1st      3
2nd     4
3rd      4      2
4th      4      3
5th      4      3      2
6th      4      4      3
7th      4      4      3      2
8th      4      4      4      3
9th      4      4      4      3      2
10th    4      4      4      4      3

So between 8th level and 10th level they will be able to cast one daily spell every round of every encounter for 16-20 rounds, which is what is suggested in the play test packet...

Spamming Cause Fear seems nice, but I'm sure they'll put a hit point max cap on it or give advantage to saves or otherwise nerf it. What you don't understand is the Wizard can choose to memorize 9 of them at level 5 and spam it almost as much as the Sorcerer...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I understand perfectly well.

The ability to use Cause Fear twice as much as the Wizard (nice insurance against those who save) over a workday of 4 encounters while also using Web at level 5 is a decisive advantage. Later on, they'll be able to spam more powerful encounter crushers at will (such that their solutions scale with their foes) whereas the Wizard will not be able to.

Again, the advantage of the Wizard is in the breadth of spells it can use, and it doesn't have nearly enough at this point. When there is a limited selection of spells, and only a few of them are optimal/competitive, the Sorcerer wins, and that's on casting alone, to say nothing of its vastly superior survivability.
I understand perfectly well.

The ability to use Cause Fear twice as much as the Wizard (nice insurance against those who save) over a workday of 4 encounters while also using Web at level 5 is a decisive advantage. Later on, they'll be able to spam more powerful encounter crushers at will (such that their solutions scale with their foes) whereas the Wizard will not be able to.

Again, the advantage of the Wizard is in the breadth of spells it can use, and it doesn't have nearly enough at this point. When there is a limited selection of spells, and only a few of them are optimal/competitive, the Sorcerer wins, and that's on casting alone, to say nothing of its vastly superior survivability.



Apparently you don't understand. The Wizard can memorize any spell in a higher slot. So they can have as many Cause Fears as will be useful (about 1-2 per encounter) if they choose...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Apparently you don't understand. The Wizard can memorize any spell in a higher slot. So they can have as many Cause Fears as will be useful (about 1-2 per encounter) if they choose...



What did I just say?

Level 5: Wizards have 1 CF, 1 Web per encounter (or 2 CFs, same dif). Sorcerers have 2 CF, 1 Web (or 4 CFs). 

That's a distinct and notable advantage. The latter may be a bit of overkill, but it is nonetheless an increment of power on top of the Sorcerer's vastly superior survivability.

I will further note that this superior survivability allows the Sorcerer to better utilize its spells, especially cones and 'close bursts' like CF which require you to be relatively close to the action for optimal effect/targeting.
Apparently you don't understand. The Wizard can memorize any spell in a higher slot. So they can have as many Cause Fears as will be useful (about 1-2 per encounter) if they choose...



What did I just say?

Level 5: Wizards have 1 CF, 1 Web per encounter (or 2 CFs, same dif). Sorcerers have 2 CF, 1 Web (or 4 CFs). 

That's a distinct and notable advantage. The latter may be a bit of overkill, but it is nonetheless an increment of power on top of the Sorcerer's vastly superior survivability.

I will further note that this superior survivability allows the Sorcerer to better utilize its spells, especially cones and 'close bursts' like CF which require you to be relatively close to the action for optimal effect/targeting.



The best Wizard spells (which the Sorcerer don't get) are all ranged. Melf's Acid Arrow, Flaming Sphere, Stinking Cloud, etc...etc...

Causing Fear on a creature that already has it, isn't overkill, its a wasted spell, of course with a lower save DC maybe the Sorcerer has to use it multiple times to get the same effect as a Wizard using it once...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
The best Wizard spells (which the Sorcerer don't get) are all ranged. Melf's Acid Arrow, Flaming Sphere, Stinking Cloud, etc...etc...



CF is one of the very best spells as is Web. They're encounter breakers and the Sorc can take both. Melf's is underwhelming. Sorcerer gets FS (a nice spell, but not an encounter breaker at all). Stinking Cloud is the only thing the Sorcerer would miss, and he surely gets access to it later (beyond L5).

Causing Fear on a creature that already has it, isn't overkill, its a wasted spell, of course with a lower save DC maybe the Sorcerer has to use it multiple times to get the same effect as a Wizard using it once...



I'll take several extra casts over a +5-10% fail rate any day. Also, the intent obviously isn't to use CF on the same creature but to reuse it in the event of fails, or to CF different waves of creatures.
I think that the Guardian speciality should give shield proficiency and Dragon Sorcs shouldn't get shields. Sorcerers are not natural tanks, they are damage dealers. If you want to tank or use sword and shield then take a speciality for it.

That said I think that Fighters still out damage and out tank them (Parry & HP beat +2 AC IMO), so if they loose shields I have no problem with their durability.

About damage, I suggest that Dragon Sorcs add Con Mod to spell damage (maybe not cantrips). Their possible damage from spells is very weak when compared to the Wizard, and this boost would help them out a little.

Also I think that they shoudn't have access to powerful crowd control, that is a Wizards niche. There spells should be limited to evocation and conjuration. Maybe other Origins could get other spells but I think those are fine for the Dragon Sorcerer.

Actually that might be a good thing to do is just have Origins choose what spell schools you have access to. 
The best Wizard spells (which the Sorcerer don't get) are all ranged. Melf's Acid Arrow, Flaming Sphere, Stinking Cloud, etc...etc...


Just curious, but why are you presenting Acid Arrow as a spell Sorcerers can't take when it appears on their spell list?  or am I just misreading you here?

The best Wizard spells (which the Sorcerer don't get) are all ranged. Melf's Acid Arrow, Flaming Sphere, Stinking Cloud, etc...etc...


Just curious, but why are you presenting Acid Arrow as a spell Sorcerers can't take when it appears on their spell list?  or am I just misreading you here?




I'm sorry. I knew they either got Flaming Sphere or Acid Arrow, but I couldn't remember which. Another poster said they get Flaming Sphere, so I assumed they knew what they were talking about...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I think that the Guardian speciality should give shield proficiency and Dragon Sorcs shouldn't get shields. Sorcerers are not natural tanks, they are damage dealers. If you want to tank or use sword and shield then take a speciality for it.



Why can't they be? Give me one good reason. Why do fighters get to be tanks AND damage dealers?
My two copper.
I'm sorry. I knew they either got Flaming Sphere or Acid Arrow, but I couldn't remember which. Another poster said they get Flaming Sphere, so I assumed they knew what they were talking about...


For a second there I was wondering if WotC had stealth updated the packet at some point and changed the spell list.

Guardian build Dragon Sorc 


OLD picture.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 


Guardian build Dragon Sorc 


OLD picture.



Bad Ass
My two copper.

Guardian build Dragon Sorc 


OLD picture.



Bad Ass



Newer picture but not Guardian... 

  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."