8/27/2012 Feature: "Playing with Izzet vs. Golgari"

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This thread is for discussion of the feature article "Playing with Izzet vs. Golgari," which goes live on the site Monday morning.
I hope the new izzet mechanic is revealed
I am so ready for this product.
Cool decks but "putting Train of Thought on his Isochron Scepter", Train of Thought is a sorcery, people at Wizards should know how to play the game right?
Where's the /spoiler tag for this article?!?!?! :D

So you played four matches and Izzet beat Golgari every time?  I'm glad the games were fun, but I hope that outcome was just a fluke...


Also, you should be able to target the Golgari Thug with the Plagued Rusalka's ability when you sacrifice it, so you don't need to kill off an extra creature of your own.


Sounds like a lot of neat cards!  The Izzet and Golgari keywords are both a little narrow, but that seems fine in a block with 10 new abilities.  Overload is definitely very Izzet.

Thanks to everyone who helped with the design of the plane of Golamo in the Great Designer Search 2!
My Decks
These are the decks I have assembled at the moment:
Tournament Decks (4)
Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block) Sunforger/Izzet Guildmage Midrange (Ravnica/Time Spiral/Xth Standard) Dragonstorm Combo (Time Spiral/Lorwyn/Xth Standard) Bant Midrange (Lorwyn/Shards/M10 Standard)
Casual Multiplayer Decks (50)
Angel Resurrection Casual Soul Sisters Sindbad's Adventures with Djinn of Wishes Sphinx-Bone Wand Buyback Morph (No Instants or Sorceries) Cabal Coffers Control Zombie Aggro Hungry, Hungry Greater Gargadon/War Elemental Flashfires/Boil/Ruination - Boom! Call of the Wild Teysa, Orzhov Scion with Twilight Drover, Sun Titan, and Hivestone Slivers Rebels Cairn Wanderer Knights Only Gold and () Spells Captain Sisay Toolbox Spellweaver Helix Combo Merfolk Wizards Izzet Guildmage/The Unspeakable Arcane Combo Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and his Wizards Creatureless Wild Research/Reins of Power Madness Creatureless Pyromancer Ascension Anarchist Living Death Anvil of Bogardan Madness Shamen with Goblin Game/Wound Reflection Combo Mass damage Quest for Pure Flame Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle/Clear the Land with 40+ Lands Doubling Season Thallids Juniper Order Ranger Graft/Tokens Elf Archer Druids Equilibrium/Aluren Combo Experiment Kraj Combo Reap Combo False Cure/Kavu Predator Combo Savra, Queen of the Golgari Sacrifice/Dredge Elf Warriors Eight-Post Sneak Attack Where Ancients Tread Zur the Enchanter with Opal creatures Tamanoa/Kavu Predator/Collapsing Borders Esper Aggro Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and his Darksteel Reactor Theft and Control Unearth Aggro Soul's Fire Vampires Devour Tokens Phytohydra with Powerstone Minefield Treefolk Friendly? Questing Phelddagrif Slivers Dragon Arch Fun I'm probably forgetting a few...
A little depressing that I have 85% of the cards, but still worth buying for the cards that I dont....

I have waited for this product and Wizards has delivered.

Thank you.

I hope all the guilds get charms....

So you played four matches and Izzet beat Golgari every time?  I'm glad the games were fun, but I hope that outcome was just a fluke...




I noticed the same thing (though I belive Golgari won once). It seemed to me like the Izzet deck just has overall more answers to the other deck. Also, they should have used more Ravnica-related cards to really make these feel like the guilds (I'd say 50/50). I think both decks should have the charms and both of the guildmages (old and new). For one, it allows for comparisons but it also is more thematic. Also, there are too many one-ofs, which makes the games dependent on luck more often. Oh well. I'm really excited about the new set, not so much the Duel Decks.
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A little depressing that I have 85% of the cards, but still worth buying for the cards that I dont....

I have waited for this product and Wizards has delivered.

Thank you.

I hope all the guilds get charms....



Trick called out that every guild will get both a new guildmage and a new charm in the article.


So you played four matches and Izzet beat Golgari every time?  I'm glad the games were fun, but I hope that outcome was just a fluke...




I noticed the same thing (though I belive Golgari won once). It seemed to me like the Izzet deck just has overall more answers to the other deck. Also, they should have used more Ravnica-related cards to really make these feel like the guilds (I'd say 50/50). I think both decks should have the charms and both of the guildmages (old and new). For one, it allows for comparisons but it also is more thematic. Also, there are too many one-ofs, which makes the games dependent on luck more often. Oh well. I'm really excited about the new set, not so much the Duel Decks.



The high variance of the decks are by design. They're meant to be played against one another ad infinitum, and a consistent pair of decks would lead to repetitive and eventually stale play. It also allows Wizards to include a greater breadth of reprints than a more consistent deck would.

Now if the Event Decks didn't exist to give a better example of a deck that can actually win a few games, I'd complain, but since they do, I see no problem with the Duel Decks catering to another audience. That being the audience who enjoys shuffling these up, and the audience who picks these up for the reprints. Especially since I belong to both.
Am I the only one really underwhelmed by scavenge? It will play the same on every card that it's on. They'll probably have one scavenge creature with variable power, taking advantage of the fact the characteristic-setting abilities work out of play now, but other than that, it seems like a boring mechanic.
Preordering this NOW. Wow, there's value here. Life from the Loam, Iso Scepter, Niv-Mizzet and Eternal Witness? And Grave-Troll? Yiiiikes.

Overload seems fun, if a bit much like Radiate. Spasm is cool, but try to REALLY impress me with the next spoiler, ok?

Also, whoa, that Goblin is a common? Drafting seven of these suckers is a go. Can't wait for the set! 
It's a bit weird that they put so few new cards in these decks, but there certainly are some value rares in there.
I don't like seeing Isochron Scepter in there though. I've seen enough of that card to last me a lifetime.
It's a bit weird that they put so few new cards in these decks, but there certainly are some value rares in there.

You do realize that last year's fall duel decks had no new cards, and the year before that we only had two? This is the highest number of preview cards in an ancillary product we have ever seen. (Beating out Planechase's four Zendikar cards.)

Or did you not realize this comes out a month before RTR?
blah blah metal lyrics

Sounds like a lot of neat cards!  The Izzet and Golgari keywords are both a little narrow, but that seems fine in a block with 10 new abilities.  Overload is definitely very Izzet.




Actually "Overload" isn't the new Izzet mechanic, the autor refered to the ability as a " new Return to Ravnica mechanic" and not as the new Izzet one...

Look at the part of the text when he introduces "Scavage" - " Scavenge is the new mechanic in Return to Ravnica for Golgari"

If Overload is the new Izzet mechanic, Trick Jarred should have said it in the text...
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You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what I create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.
Actually "Overload" isn't the new Izzet mechanic, the autor refered to the ability as a " new Return to Ravnica mechanic" and not as the new Izzet one...

Look at the part of the text when he introduces "Scavage" - " Scavenge is the new mechanic in Return to Ravnica for Golgari"


If Overload is the new Izzet mechanic, Trick Jarred should have said it in the text...



He says before this: let me show you with a new Izzet card in Return to Ravnica: Street Spasm!

[<o>]
Because of the watermark I believe it's an Izzet keyword.

Does this mean that all Return to ravnica cards will have watermarks (like Mirrodin Besiged)? Artifacts, PW and lands being the exception of course.
The card is Izzet but does that makes the ability the new Izzet mechanic? Probably yes...That's sad, I love playing with Replicate, but this ability makes me think of a huge change in the Izzet strategy... Thanks for the reply, I read the text fast and didn't pay attention to everything...
You are Red/Blue!
You are Red/Blue!
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what I create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.

In Ravnica, a card receives the guild's watermark if its either (1) uses both the guild's colors (either as Gelectrode or Torch Drake), or (2) has the guild's keyword (Gigadrowse). Street Splasm is called an 'Izzet card' with the Izzet watermark, and is mono-red with a keyword.


Therefore, Overload is the Izzet keyword.




Yes, you could argue RTR includes a generic keyword in addition to the already-confirmed five guild keywords (and ten keywords a block is too much already), and that they'd change the way they give guild watermarkes (working like Scar, every card has a guild, completely ignoring everything guildless on the plane), and that they'd include a generic-keyword 'Izzet' card as a preview but none with the real Izzet keyword.


But I'd say all this sounds is a bit unlikely.

[<o>]
A Train of Thought imprinted on an Isochron Scepter? Mmh, mmh, sure...

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

As if having Robert stabilize at 2 life wasn't enough, he got his draw engine cranked to 11 by putting Train of Thought on his Isochron Scepter and drawing three, four, five cards a turn with his unused mana.

 
Train of Thought is a sorcery..
As if having Robert stabilize at 2 life wasn't enough, he got his draw engine cranked to 11 by putting Train of Thought on his Isochron Scepter and drawing three, four, five cards a turn with his unused mana.

 
Train of Thought is a sorcery..


Mmh, mmh, sure...

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

Is it a new thing that the spoiled-but-unreleased cards in the decklists autocard properly (although they aren't in Gatherer), or have I just missed it before?
Is it a new thing that the spoiled-but-unreleased cards in the decklists autocard properly (although they aren't in Gatherer), or have I just missed it before?


Its a new thing.

They still havent fixed the whole "deck list is so long that when Im hovering over the bottom cards I cant see the preview because its above the top of my screen" thing though...

~ Tim 

I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
Sig
56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)
ZOMG, they has THE STICK!

I don't personally own any sticks so I'm glad I preordered 4 of these decks.  The preview cards are pretty cool.  Can't wait to see more RTR in a month.

***************************************************************************************

From Mark Rosewater's Tumblr: the0uroboros asked: How in the same set can we have a hexproof, unsacrificable(not a word) creature AND a land that makes it uncounterable. How does this lead to interactive play? I believe I’m able to play my creature and you have to deal with it is much more interactive than you counter my creature.

***************************************************************************************

Post #777

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MaRo: One of the classic R&D stories happened during a Scars of Mirrodin draft. Erik Lauer was sitting to my right (meaning that he passed to me in the first and third packs). At the end of the draft, Erik was upset because I was in his colors (black-green). He said, "Didn't you see the signals? I went into black-green in pack one." I replied, "Didn't you see my signals? I started drafting infect six drafts ago."

***************************************************************************************

MaRo: I redesigned him while the effect was on the stack.

Did anyone else notice the lack of hybrid mana symbols on the new cards, even the guildmage?
One of the cards that were on the Return To Ravnica slideshow when Deathbrige Goliath apeared have hybrid mana symbol...
It's this card
 
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The Stick. Awesome. And I love overload, even if it is just like Planar Chaos split cards

I want to see future guild v. guild duel decks. The Gruul are wrecking up the place, and it's up to the Boros to restore order! Someone has sent a Rakdos assassin against Teysa!
139359831 wrote:
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---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
I now want this.  A lot.
I'm very disappointed in the new Izzet mechanic. I expected a lot more. My gripes are:

1. How is Overload supposed to synergize with Replicate? They claimed that the old and new guild keywords would synergize.

2. Isn't Overload just a modified Replicate mechanic? Pay mana to copy this spell for another target vs pay more mana to copy this spell for every target. Not very original imo.
1. How is Overload supposed to synergize with Replicate? They claimed that the old and new guild keywords would synergize.



That's NOT what they've said. They've said the guilds themselves would synergize. If you put a bunch of original Ravnica and RtR cards together they'll work as a deck. Both Izzet mechanics are about spells, and thus work together. Gelectrode works when you cast an Overload spell every turn.
I gotta admit, this is a LOT better than Venser vs. Koth.  Some really good cards like Isochron Scepter, Eternal Witness, Life from the Loam, and Niv-Mizzet in here.  I'm definitely picking up this just for Niv-Mizzet alone.

The new Izzet mechanic is certainly interesting.  Street Spasm probably won't see constructed play as long as Bonfire of the Damned is legal, but I can think of a lot of different ways it could be adapted.  Imagine this on an Unsummon.
Hello folks. I'm not familiar with replicate mechanic but it looks very similar to multikicker, so does it untap a gelectrode twice (the original spell and the replicate spell)? It also lacks the keyword 'cast' on copying a spell which makes me more inclined to think that is does not work with  gelectrode.
Did anyone else notice the lack of hybrid mana symbols on the new cards, even the guildmage?



Definitely noticed that. Kind of sad about it.
Hello folks. I'm not familiar with replicate mechanic but it looks very similar to multikicker, so does it untap a gelectrode twice (the original spell and the replicate spell)? It also lacks the keyword 'cast' on copying a spell which makes me more inclined to think that is does not work with  gelectrode.



Yeah, I don't think that it works with that. I guess I have problems with variations on kicker and multikicker as keywords (replicate, overload, entwine).
Am I the only one really underwhelmed by scavenge?



Yeah, not terribly excited. And it's not like it puts Golgari in a precarious position or anything =[

And lol at the Izzet deck CLEARLY being miles ahead of the Golgari one both in terms of playability and value. They shouldn't have called this a duel deck and called it the 'We're sorry Golgari were apparently overpowered last time, here, cave their heads in a few times you'll feel better' Scheme. Or something like it.
I want to be Cultured.
Man... Izzet > Golgari.

Wizards could do better for them. On my opinion, this Izzet deck is  faaaaar superior to Golgari, not so fair for a duel deck. And there's a huge lack of flavor on both. 

Looks more like a "B/G-U/R card cake" than a guild-based deck. 
Am I the only one really underwhelmed by scavenge?



Yeah, not terribly excited. And it's not like it puts Golgari in a precarious position or anything =[

And lol at the Izzet deck CLEARLY being miles ahead of the Golgari one both in terms of playability and value. They shouldn't have called this a duel deck and called it the 'We're sorry Golgari were apparently overpowered last time, here, cave their heads in a few times you'll feel better' Scheme. Or something like it.


I'm gonna go against the tide of scavenge haters here.  It is somewhat single-minded, as it only does what it does, but there are a few points in it's favor

A) The creatures that have showcased it have been incredible in the value department.  A 3/3 haster for 3, and a 5/5 body for 4.  These creatures then suddenly have a use in your graveyard, giving them card advantage ability in the decks that would play them. 

B) Vapor Snag isn't a thing in standard anymore.  It's leaving with Scars block.  In addition to this point is the value of this keyword in limited, where it will really shine.

C) There is nothing saying a card can't have abilities related to scavenge, such as "when you scavenge...blah, blah, draw a card" or something similar.

All in all it works well with dredge, it keeps the graveyard interesting for golgari, it supports a mid game rock type strategy by offering value in both card count, and mana.  I think I'll like the new mechanic for Golgari.   
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the biggest question is why there is the old version of niv mizzet in this deck.
i would have bought it directly for the new niv. now i'm hesitating
"As if having Robert stabilize at 2 life wasn't enough, he got his draw engine cranked to 11 by putting Train of Thought on his Isochron Scepter and drawing three, four, five cards a turn with his unused mana."


Robert cheated you, bro.

not only is ToT a sorcery, Isochron won't allow you to pay additional/alternate costs...e.g. no replicate. 
"As if having Robert stabilize at 2 life wasn't enough, he got his draw engine cranked to 11 by putting Train of Thought on his Isochron Scepter and drawing three, four, five cards a turn with his unused mana."


Robert cheated you, bro.

not only is ToT a sorcery, Isochron won't allow you to pay additional/alternate costs...e.g. no replicate. 


You're correct on the Sorcery part.  But you definitely CAN pay additional costs on copies.  Kicker and replicate are both useable.  You could even pay buyback, though it wouldn't actually do anything since the spell copy isn't a card.

That's not the same as alternate costs.  And this is because the stick's ability is already an alternate cost, and you can't use 2 alternatives simultaneouly.  So while Replicate is fair game (on instants), Overload won't be.

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

whoops, my bad.  my eyes got ahead of my brain, it seems.  read the alternate/additional clauses as the same and missed the "you do" on additionals.  Foot in Mouth

Robert's still a cheater!  ;D