Please don't overrun the planet with Darkvision/blindvision critters

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Ok so as our groups DM I was reading through all the monsters and bad guys in the Bestiary and suddenly it hit me. "How the heck are the surface races surviving at all in this world?"

If you take out the 5 evil or commoner humans in the bestiary there are only 4 creatures that DON'T have darkvision or blindsight/tremorsense! That's almost 90% of the things PCs have to fight against!

On the flip side the wonderful folk of the surface world or near surface (for you Dwarves).

> 0% have darkvison

> 50% have no vision aid at all!

Seems to me that one long dark winter is all it would take for the whole surface world to be whipped out. Heck even the drawbacks are unbalanced.

So a Drow comes to the surface to loot, pillage, get a tee shirt, etc...

At night Humans are straight out blind (without a light source) and he has a +5 to AC (total concealment) Drow has no negative effects.

Dawn comes up and bummer now the Drow has disadvantage on attacks (and that’s it)


Now don't get me wrong I don't want to start a super vision arms race here. I am asking WoTC to back it down the other way.
> Have creatures that live way underground like Drow and Mind Flayers have darkvision sure but give them a heavy price to pay if they get in sunlight.

> Near surface critters Goblins, Orcs, etc could have a smattering of low light vision but again don't go crazy.

> Undead and oozes and such should have some heightened sense maybe limited range blindsight etc...

> Surface folk and critters for the most part shouldn't have any vision aid



            

I can see where you're comming from here,tho I do see some logicstical issues arrising from which part of the dark their "from".



I for one love that feeling of inching through the darkness of the deep with a torch(or lantern) illuminating the way,the darkness has always held a speical fear for man and I believe thats how the devs see it.   

Oh I agree with ya on the feeling of something watching from the dark that mankind always has. Great spooky effect but I just don't want to have it be overkill with 90% of the critters out there able to see you while you can't see them.

Actually Low light 30 ft isn't too bad but Darkvision 60 ft for so many creatures is heavy handed in my opinion.

The other thing I want avoid which so many versions of D&D eventually fall into is that as more non-human races become available to PCs (especially the ones with a lot of powers like darkvision) suddenly you can't find a Human PC to save your life. Heck even the standard elf or dwarf become pretty rare. It's not the players fault they just gravitate toward the races that are clearly superior and that’s when the planet gets unbalanced.

One thing to keep in mind is that low-light vision lets you see in pitch blackness, by DDN rules, and that 'dim light' doesn't grant a TON of bonuses -- in fact, I think it only allows you to make Stealth/Dex checks to hide.  


      

Yep dim light isn't too bad. In fact it says it acts like your lightly obscured so only folks with talents that let them hide in in a lightly obscured space can really take advantage (AKA wood elf).

What I am more concerned with is anyone that doesn't have any vision aid (right now only humans, halflings, and 4 creatures in the whole bestiary) is totally hosed in darkness and everyone else (again 90% of the planet) is not.

You are considered blinded (Disadvantage to all your attacks, all attacks made on you have advantage, you can only move half speed, and since you can't see anyone, everyone has complete concealment so you have a +5 to your attacks assuming you can make out where they are because if you can't you aren't allowed to attack them at all)


Now I don't want this part changed it is actually quite realistic, being in complete darkness is tough I image for various reasons we've all experienced that fun.

What I don't like is that 90% of the planet doesn't have this problem so honestly natural selection should have whipped out the humans and poor hobbits a long time ago.





Now don't get me wrong I don't want to start a super vision arms race here. I am asking WoTC to back it down the other way.
> Have creatures that live way underground like Drow and Mind Flayers have darkvision sure but give them a heavy price to pay if they get in sunlight.

> Near surface critters Goblins, Orcs, etc could have a smattering of low light vision but again don't go crazy.

> Undead and oozes and such should have some heightened sense maybe limited range blindsight etc...

> Surface folk and critters for the most part shouldn't have any vision aid



            





I agree fully with this.

So a Drow comes to the surface to loot, pillage, get a tee shirt, etc...



I KNEW IT! That's what happened to all my tee shirts!
My two copper.
Yes and blame those Deep Gnomes for all those socks that go missing.
I hate to see a lot of creatures getting Disadvantages in the Sunlight. When Drow PCs come out the Disadvantage is going to hurt a lot of players. And we all know that Drow is coming eventually down the pipeline. Along with Two Scimitars. Even if its a few Player's Handbooks in the future.

As far as Darkvision goes I liked it when those races were just given Low light in 4e. Back in 3.5 I remember a feat that allowed Low Light to be exchanged for Darkvision, but I dont remember what it was.

All this talk about Light and Vision makes me want to play Zork. Beware of the Gru. 
Ant Farm


All this talk about Light and Vision makes me want to play Zork. Beware of the Gru. 



"You are in Dark.  You are likely to be eaten by a grue."

Lol!

Honestly, I agree. When you take in to account the darkvision of most monsters, even when those monsters spend a good deal of time doing their monster thing on the surface, this ability will really put a damper on classes that rely on having at least some obscurment or the like to do their thing.

I mean, if you've got a rogue sneaking around in a dungeon, even a rogue with the scheme that gives him low-light vision, there's very little he can do to avoid detection when his adversaries can see as well in total darkness as if they were actually standing 'round in broad daylight. There are a number of things a rogue can pull, such as hiding 'round the bend in a tunnel or behind various terrain features, but for the most part he's going to end up in a bad way. As a DM I've already let a number of these instances slide, just to give the scout in my party a snowballs chance in Dis, but it feels like I'm really "cheating" on behalf of the player in these instances (probably 'cause I'm doing exactly that). There are just so few instances, apart from those that I consciously construct for the scout types that I feel they wouldn't be immediately spotted, and probably long before they even laid eyes on the shadowy outlines of their foes.

Now, I know that the critters that dwell in the deep places are supposed to be scary as hell, but when it comes to orcs, goblins, gnolls, and other such critters that spend a fair bit of time on the surface, I can imagine that low-light vision would suffice when they find themselves back in the gloom.

There are very, very few creatures with anything that even remotely resembles "dark vision" in the natural world. Most critters that live in total darkness utilize some other form of sensory perception to let them know what's going on, but these are very specialized critters with very specialized organs and structures.  On the other hand, there are many, many, many critters roaming about that utilize forms of "low-light vision". In fact, I'm willing to bet that half the people on these boards have one such example running around in their house somewhere. Mr. Fluffle's low-light vision isn't perfect, and he certainly couldn't see in near-total darkness, so I'm pretty sure an intrepid adventurer (or a jerk with a can of pennies) could have at least a small chance of sneaking up on him in the dark. Granted I'm referring to examples in the natural world, so this has little bearing on how things work in D&D worlds where half the inhabitants on a planet would likely be immigrants from another prime world, the creations of a Power or insane magic user, refugees from another reality, the descendants of a marooned space or plane-faring people, or any number of other possibilities that are, likely as not, the true story behind the origin of any D&D world's various tenants. Still, it's something to consider, eh?

Anyway, yeah, I agree. Too much darkvision. I'm not against specialized forms of perception, provided they make some kind of "sense", but I think darkvision should remain in the domain of those creatures that dwell in perpetual darkness (drown, deepspawn, grell, etc.)... or are really, really friggin' scary. Not that those examples I gave aren't scary. You know. Yeah.

Add: Oh, and I think drow should continue to suffer the effects of daylight. There's a reason why drow tend not to come up during the daylight hours, besides risking the displeasure of... everybody, and why encoutering wayfaring drow isn't something that occurs, like, ever. Unless something really, really bad is about to happen, that is.

Don't get me wrong, as a DM, I love drow. I just hate... one drow in particular. And all variations of that one drow. All. Variations. All of 'em. They ruined those books for me. Seriously.

Yep I'm way on board with ya about low light it makes sense, it's useful but not crazy powerful. And to give creatures a variation and flavor they don't all have to be low light 30 ft. Some slow moving brutes might only have low light 10 ft or 20 ft. A really fast hunter type creature could have low light 50 ft.

So we stop busting on the poor tee-shirt deprived Drow let me focus on another over vision powered monster type.

  > The Zombie.

 > I mean come on take a live commoner human smack it till it'd dead then bring it back as a zombie and whamo it has Darkvision 60 ft!!!???
 
I think it's way more interesting and spooky for the PCs to deal with a huge room of Zombies that are blind but have Blindsight 10 ft or 20 ft. You don't want to shoot them cause they will come towards the PCs (AKA Walking Dead). The PCs might try to all sneak by them (AKA Silent Hill). Everyone bites their nails as the dwarf fighter in plate and the clumsy wizard try to quietly weave through the horde (Staying just out of blight sight reach)!!!
Honestly, I agree. When you take in to account the darkvision of most monsters, even when those monsters spend a good deal of time doing their monster thing on the surface, this ability will really put a damper on classes that rely on having at least some obscurment or the like to do their thing.

I mean, if you've got a rogue sneaking around in a dungeon, even a rogue with the scheme that gives him low-light vision, there's very little he can do to avoid detection when his adversaries can see as well in total darkness as if they were actually standing 'round in broad daylight. There are a number of things a rogue can pull, such as hiding 'round the bend in a tunnel or behind various terrain features, but for the most part he's going to end up in a bad way. As a DM I've already let a number of these instances slide, just to give the scout in my party a snowballs chance in Dis, but it feels like I'm really "cheating" on behalf of the player in these instances (probably 'cause I'm doing exactly that). There are just so few instances, apart from those that I consciously construct for the scout types that I feel they wouldn't be immediately spotted, and probably long before they even laid eyes on the shadowy outlines of their foes.

Now, I know that the critters that dwell in the deep places are supposed to be scary as hell, but when it comes to orcs, goblins, gnolls, and other such critters that spend a fair bit of time on the surface, I can imagine that low-light vision would suffice when they find themselves back in the gloom.

There are very, very few creatures with anything that even remotely resembles "dark vision" in the natural world. Most critters that live in total darkness utilize some other form of sensory perception to let them know what's going on, but these are very specialized critters with very specialized organs and structures.  On the other hand, there are many, many, many critters roaming about that utilize forms of "low-light vision". In fact, I'm willing to bet that half the people on these boards have one such example running around in their house somewhere. Mr. Fluffle's low-light vision isn't perfect, and he certainly couldn't see in near-total darkness, so I'm pretty sure an intrepid adventurer (or a jerk with a can of pennies) could have at least a small chance of sneaking up on him in the dark. Granted I'm referring to examples in the natural world, so this has little bearing on how things work in D&D worlds where half the inhabitants on a planet would likely be immigrants from another prime world, the creations of a Power or insane magic user, refugees from another reality, the descendants of a marooned space or plane-faring people, or any number of other possibilities that are, likely as not, the true story behind the origin of any D&D world's various tenants. Still, it's something to consider, eh?

Anyway, yeah, I agree. Too much darkvision. I'm not against specialized forms of perception, provided they make some kind of "sense", but I think darkvision should remain in the domain of those creatures that dwell in perpetual darkness (drown, deepspawn, grell, etc.)... or are really, really friggin' scary. Not that those examples I gave aren't scary. You know. Yeah.

Add: Oh, and I think drow should continue to suffer the effects of daylight. There's a reason why drow tend not to come up during the daylight hours, besides risking the displeasure of... everybody, and why encoutering wayfaring drow isn't something that occurs, like, ever. Unless something really, really bad is about to happen, that is.

Don't get me wrong, as a DM, I love drow. I just hate... one drow in particular. And all variations of that one drow. All. Variations. All of 'em. They ruined those books for me. Seriously.




There's no part of this post I don't agree with.

Yep I'm way on board with ya about low light it makes sense, it's useful but not crazy powerful. And to give creatures a variation and flavor they don't all have to be low light 30 ft. Some slow moving brutes might only have low light 10 ft or 20 ft. A really fast hunter type creature could have low light 50 ft.

So we stop busting on the poor tee-shirt deprived Drow let me focus on another over vision powered monster type.

  > The Zombie.

 > I mean come on take a live commoner human smack it till it'd dead then bring it back as a zombie and whamo it has Darkvision 60 ft!!!???
 
I think it's way more interesting and spooky for the PCs to deal with a huge room of Zombies that are blind but have Blindsight 10 ft or 20 ft. You don't want to shoot them cause they will come towards the PCs (AKA Walking Dead). The PCs might try to all sneak by them (AKA Silent Hill). Everyone bites their nails as the dwarf fighter in plate and the clumsy wizard try to quietly weave through the horde (Staying just out of blight sight reach)!!!



Yup, I can see what you mean with regard to zombies, but when it comes to our corpsey friends as they exist within the Dungeons & Dragons universe we've moved away from the domain of "natural" science and into the realm of metaphysics and magic. These creatures, by their very nature, are creatures of profane magic, not biology. There have been instances in official sources (for whatever that's worth) where zombies have been created by plague, but those plagues have invariably been either magical in origin or linked to the meddling of one of the many powers related to death, plague or the undead.

So far as zombies go, I think it would work either way, really. They're lesser undead, and they retain what remains of their sensory organs to a greater or lesser extent (stuff falls off once in a while, it just happens), but what about other forms of undead like, say, skeletons? These guys have no eyes, they are commonly described as having "points of light" flickering within their eye sockets. Do they even see? I don't think their vision would be "sight" as we understand it, but does that even matter, really? I don't think it does. Then again, statistically, it suppose it does.

Should zombies be able to see in the dark? I think... maybe. How 'bout skeletons? I'd find it hard to justify them not being able to do so.


I get ya about the natural explanation over magic one. I do think the unholy act of magically animating the dead should give the zombie or skeleton a magical way of seeing it's world. I just think it should be more of an aura effect aka blindsight. So sure at a distance you can out maneuver and drop them but when the get up close they latch on and don't let go. AKA with blindsight 20 ft you'd have to run away or teleport to get away. Stealth would be useless right up close to them.

Now ranged undead should have different vision effects otherwise they are pointless in dark tombs and such but I would say low light again is more than good enough. Heck, that feature should cost the evil bugger that brought them back extra in the ritual! 25 GP worth of ritual powder to bring a skeleton to life but if you want it to see in the dark you have to add two 25 GP gems (glowing eyes).


My over arching theme here is yes keep all these cool vision powers but balance the world a bit with them.

 > Darkvision 15%
 > Blindsight  15%
 > Low light    20%
 > Normal vision 50%

           
Maybe they should add "Smell Sense" and "Taste Sense", this may sound like a joke, but in all seriousness I see Zombies as more of smelling people's fresh, juicy brains. Whereas a snake supposedly tastes the air to find prey.

Honestly I think these alternatives should be left for the DM.

My perfect campaign world:
 > Darkvision 15%
 > Blindsight  15%
 > Low light    30%
 > Normal vision 40% 
Ant Farm
the only thing that bugs me so far... they have nt actually EXPLAINED how darkvision works

DontEatRawHagis I think other sense types would be cool with their own challenges. Gust of wind could render a smell sense creature blind etc... Though I have to always remember that too many rules can bog things down. I love more depth but hate 2 hours of discussion to understand a zillion rules and cross effect rules. Oh the balance of it all.


AlmightyK I thought it was odd that even after the second update they still haven't explained a trait that 90% of the critters have. Come on WoTC chime in, I'm sure you have the rule already but just didn't include it in the how to play or DMG.

Provided there is no light source within thirty feet, creatures with low-light vision treat darkness as shadows and shadows as nomal light. So, I think we can safely assume that creatures with darkvision treat all "degrees" of darkness as normal light for the purposes of vision.

Honestly, I think the explanation of low-light vision could do with some revision. I'm not a literalist, so I simply assume that the vision of creatures with low-light vision wouldn't be hampered too badly by lower levels of illumination like, say, a torch or hooded lantern at their back. All types of vision, even darkvision, require some level of ambient light to function, else they wouldn't exactly be "vision" by definition; and the ability to see shadowed areas plain as day becomes kinda useless when your vision only works in areas where there aren't any bloody shadows.
Provided there is no light source within thirty feet, creatures with low-light vision treat darkness as shadows and shadows as nomal light. So, I think we can safely assume that creatures with darkvision treat all "degrees" of darkness as normal light for the purposes of vision.

Honestly, I think the explanation of low-light vision could do with some revision. I'm not a literalist, so I simply assume that the vision of creatures with low-light vision wouldn't be hampered too badly by lower levels of illumination like, say, a torch or hooded lantern at their back. All types of vision, even darkvision, require some level of ambient light to function, else they wouldn't exactly be "vision" by definition; and the ability to see shadowed areas plain as day becomes kinda useless when your vision only works in areas where there aren't any bloody shadows.



see, that would be an ASSUMPTION.
but with assumptions is what also gets you the extra damage on magic attacks

and remember, in older editions darkvision was in black and white. does it still do that? we don't know
Provided there is no light source within thirty feet, creatures with low-light vision treat darkness as shadows and shadows as nomal light. So, I think we can safely assume that creatures with darkvision treat all "degrees" of darkness as normal light for the purposes of vision.

Honestly, I think the explanation of low-light vision could do with some revision. I'm not a literalist, so I simply assume that the vision of creatures with low-light vision wouldn't be hampered too badly by lower levels of illumination like, say, a torch or hooded lantern at their back. All types of vision, even darkvision, require some level of ambient light to function, else they wouldn't exactly be "vision" by definition; and the ability to see shadowed areas plain as day becomes kinda useless when your vision only works in areas where there aren't any bloody shadows.



see, that would be an ASSUMPTION.
but with assumptions is what also gets you the extra damage on magic attacks

and remember, in older editions darkvision was in black and white. does it still do that? we don't know



Yup, an assumption, nothing more. Still, makes sense.

Oh, and darkvision is only a 3E/4E thing. Back in the good ol' days, demi-humans didn't see in black and white, no, their lightless world was viewed in fully realized, high-definition Predatorvision. That'd be infravision for those not in the know. Yup, they saw everything in terms of temperature. Get to da choppah.
Provided there is no light source within thirty feet, creatures with low-light vision treat darkness as shadows and shadows as nomal light. So, I think we can safely assume that creatures with darkvision treat all "degrees" of darkness as normal light for the purposes of vision.

Honestly, I think the explanation of low-light vision could do with some revision. I'm not a literalist, so I simply assume that the vision of creatures with low-light vision wouldn't be hampered too badly by lower levels of illumination like, say, a torch or hooded lantern at their back. All types of vision, even darkvision, require some level of ambient light to function, else they wouldn't exactly be "vision" by definition; and the ability to see shadowed areas plain as day becomes kinda useless when your vision only works in areas where there aren't any bloody shadows.



see, that would be an ASSUMPTION.
but with assumptions is what also gets you the extra damage on magic attacks

and remember, in older editions darkvision was in black and white. does it still do that? we don't know



Yup, an assumption, nothing more. Still, makes sense.

Oh, and darkvision is only a 3E/4E thing. Back in the good ol' days, demi-humans didn't see in black and white, no, their lightless world was viewed in fully realized, high-definition Predatorvision. That'd be infravision for those not in the know. Yup, they saw everything in terms of temperature. Get to da choppah.



Yup, Thermographic all the way! And every race that wasn't human got it too.

Also, to go back to a post on the second page. You shouldn't balance drow around players. Their race Iconically has light sensitivity. They aren't going to take it away just because people like to play drow. It is part of what they are. At best they will have a surface drow subrace that might not have it.
My two copper.
Provided there is no light source within thirty feet, creatures with low-light vision treat darkness as shadows and shadows as nomal light. So, I think we can safely assume that creatures with darkvision treat all "degrees" of darkness as normal light for the purposes of vision.

Honestly, I think the explanation of low-light vision could do with some revision. I'm not a literalist, so I simply assume that the vision of creatures with low-light vision wouldn't be hampered too badly by lower levels of illumination like, say, a torch or hooded lantern at their back. All types of vision, even darkvision, require some level of ambient light to function, else they wouldn't exactly be "vision" by definition; and the ability to see shadowed areas plain as day becomes kinda useless when your vision only works in areas where there aren't any bloody shadows.



see, that would be an ASSUMPTION.
but with assumptions is what also gets you the extra damage on magic attacks

and remember, in older editions darkvision was in black and white. does it still do that? we don't know



Yup, an assumption, nothing more. Still, makes sense.

Oh, and darkvision is only a 3E/4E thing. Back in the good ol' days, demi-humans didn't see in black and white, no, their lightless world was viewed in fully realized, high-definition Predatorvision. That'd be infravision for those not in the know. Yup, they saw everything in terms of temperature. Get to da choppah.



Yup, Thermographic all the way! And every race that wasn't human got it too.

Also, to go back to a post on the second page. You shouldn't balance drow around players. Their race Iconically has light sensitivity. They aren't going to take it away just because people like to play drow. It is part of what they are. At best they will have a surface drow subrace that might not have it.



Indeed, indeed. However, I wouldn't totally discount the possibility of the drow becoming less adverse to chillin' on the beach and soakin' up some rays, brah. Unfortunate, but the rule of cool tends to trump... everything. Still, they can totally describe the drow as being the photophobic degenerates we all love to hate, even if it counts for jack. Undecided
well, i adapted the drow for a player in my party.
he currently has a facecover with tinted lenses :P
I have also been thinking that many creatures might have a sense of self in darkness (defensive) as opposed to active predator vision. Thinking animals that can sense objects with whiskers, notice you by smell (mentioned by others before), and air motion like how fly’s can feel something coming at them to swat them.


So in darkness they are still "blind" but they don't have disadvantage on AC and dexterity saving throws and can move at normal speed. They still have disadvantage to attacks and can't target a creature unless they can figure out where they are.


Just thinking of different ways to deal with darkness that don't all equal some form of military night goggles.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />I mean, if you've got a rogue sneaking around in a dungeon, even a rogue with the scheme that gives him low-light vision, there's very little he can do to avoid detection when his adversaries can see as well in total darkness as if they were actually standing 'round in broad daylight. There are a number of things a rogue can pull, such as hiding 'round the bend in a tunnel or behind various terrain features, but for the most part he's going to end up in a bad way. As a DM I've already let a number of these instances slide, just to give the scout in my party a snowballs chance in Dis, but it feels like I'm really "cheating" on behalf of the player in these instances (probably 'cause I'm doing exactly that). There are just so few instances, apart from those that I consciously construct for the scout types that I feel they wouldn't be immediately spotted, and probably long before they even laid eyes on the shadowy outlines of their foes.



Yeah darkvision has always been a huge rogue hoser. The way I house ruled it in 3E, darkvision was pretty blurry, so when you were using it, everything had concealment. That way, rogues could always hide from people using DV.
well, i adapted the drow for a player in my party.
he currently has a facecover with tinted lenses :P



All respect to ya, K, but I cannot help but dislike good/totally-misunderstood/not-really-all-that-bad/rebel-with-a-heart-of-gold drow PCs (assuming the drow as a whole fill the same role they typically do in a D&D game world, that being... really, really evil elves). Trust me when I tell you that I have my reasons. Props to you for making your game more enjoyable for your player; there's no way I could've seen my way to allowing that particular archetype into one of my games. Oh, unless it was a villainous campaign. It'd totally fly then.

Back to the thread!

Edit: Seriously, if I tried, I think I'd probably pop a blood vessel. That's me, though.

Edit: Off a cliff. It'd fly off a cliff. 'Cause, y'know, good drow PC... villainous party...




Now don't get me wrong I don't want to start a super vision arms race here. I am asking WoTC to back it down the other way.
> Have creatures that live way underground like Drow and Mind Flayers have darkvision sure but give them a heavy price to pay if they get in sunlight.

> Near surface critters Goblins, Orcs, etc could have a smattering of low light vision but again don't go crazy.

> Undead and oozes and such should have some heightened sense maybe limited range blindsight etc...

> Surface folk and critters for the most part shouldn't have any vision aid



            





I agree fully with this.


+1
I have I have 2 good theories why the Beastiary is so "Darkvisioned", A: The published adventures take place/have focus UNDERGROUND and as such they felt the need to give allot of creatures darkvision that don't need it. B: Because of A they went overkill and now, possibly thanks to this thread, they will fix it with the next playtest packet, which hopefully has an aboveground theme and we can get some other classics and hopefull the creature we all know and love DRAGONS, who will probably have darkvision.
"Burninating the countryside" 
I have I have 2 good theories why the Beastiary is so "Darkvisioned", A: The published adventures take place/have focus UNDERGROUND and as such they felt the need to give allot of creatures darkvision that don't need it. B: Because of A they went overkill and now, possibly thanks to this thread, they will fix it with the next playtest packet, which hopefully has an aboveground theme and we can get some other classics and hopefull the creature we all know and love DRAGONS, who will probably have darkvision.
"Burninating the countryside" 

I agree with the possible two theories DPRslayer. I just have a feeling it's B:

I don't blame them I've been there as a DM ya get caught up in making a new monster and want to give your new nasty creation all the sharp pointy things and cool effects but sometimes ya look back and go "Oh, I over did that one a bit"

Or worse your players after nearly getting killed by the thing go "really you gave it all those features at once!"

The vision arms race has been a problem with all editions of D&D and some other game systems as well. Here is hoping constructive feedback in an beta test might change that a bit.    


       

Guess I will chime in.  If they want to keep all the darky darky goodness of the visions, fine.  But it shouldn't work in well lit areas.  Throw in the wizard light spell, and now all that darkvision monster nasty goes blind.  Shoe is on the other tentacle now.  I am a big supporter of detriments to balance thing out.


Even a torch or lantern should mess with it a bit.  Low light, not so much.  There is no work around for tremorsense short of flying.


Drow not being a player character?  Good luck with that. Even though I whole heartily agree that they are deep dwellers, and evil, players will whine and whine.  Damn players, this game would be a lot easier without them. Tongue Out

Guess I will chime in.  If they want to keep all the darky darky goodness of the visions, fine.  But it shouldn't work in well lit areas.  Throw in the wizard light spell, and now all that darkvision monster nasty goes blind.  Shoe is on the other tentacle now.  I am a big supporter of detriments to balance thing out.


Even a torch or lantern should mess with it a bit.  Low light, not so much.  There is no work around for tremorsense short of flying.


Drow not being a player character?  Good luck with that. Even though I whole heartily agree that they are deep dwellers, and evil, players will whine and whine.  Damn players, this game would be a lot easier without them.


I'm with ya on the balance idea. You can have some creatures with really cool powers and such as long as they have some weakness thats equally nasty to them.


Taking the underdark back one flash grenade at a time Tongue Out 


Guess I will chime in.  If they want to keep all the darky darky goodness of the visions, fine.  But it shouldn't work in well lit areas.  Throw in the wizard light spell, and now all that darkvision monster nasty goes blind.  Shoe is on the other tentacle now.  I am a big supporter of detriments to balance thing out.


Even a torch or lantern should mess with it a bit.  Low light, not so much.  There is no work around for tremorsense short of flying.


Drow not being a player character?  Good luck with that. Even though I whole heartily agree that they are deep dwellers, and evil, players will whine and whine.  Damn players, this game would be a lot easier without them.




Light sources (presumably) mess up low-light vision in DDN, currently.  We haven't really seen how darkvision is supposed to work.. maybe it does the same thing?

Guess I will chime in.  If they want to keep all the darky darky goodness of the visions, fine.  But it shouldn't work in well lit areas.  Throw in the wizard light spell, and now all that darkvision monster nasty goes blind.  Shoe is on the other tentacle now.  I am a big supporter of detriments to balance thing out.


Even a torch or lantern should mess with it a bit.  Low light, not so much.  There is no work around for tremorsense short of flying.


Drow not being a player character?  Good luck with that. Even though I whole heartily agree that they are deep dwellers, and evil, players will whine and whine.  Damn players, this game would be a lot easier without them.




Light sources (presumably) mess up low-light vision in DDN, currently.  We haven't really seen how darkvision is supposed to work.. maybe it does the same thing?

I hope light does a little more than turn off darkvision. For all it gives a creature it would be really powerful if all it did when it got within 30 ft of a light source was to turn off. So they are outside of the 30 feet they run around no problem. You get within 30 feet of them with a light and ok now they have to come in and deal with ya close up or move back out of the 30 foot range. Heck If I were a Darkvision creature my first attack would always be on the guy holding the light. knock him out, put out the light and its easy pickings.