Skillful Blend of 3e and 4e


I have a suggestion on how we might blend the 3e and 4e skill systems so that we can have the skills function with only as much complexity as the group desires. 

The concept is to use broad skills a la 4e then split them into 3 specialties each. 

When you level you would get 3 pts that could gain a new broad skill, level a single broad skill by 1 or level three specialties from different skills by 1.  



Suggestion by Zyph for further detail in choosing.

 
1. No skills what so ever. Everything functions off abilities

2. Broad skills. You get starting +3 points in three of them, and every even level up one skill by 1

3. Hybrid skills. You get +3 points in three of them, and every even level you get 1 points to put towards one broad skill or 3 to split amongst your 9 narrow skills

4. Narrow skills. You get 27 skill points starting off, and every even level you get 3 more

 
Acrobatics: Tumble, jump, balance

Arcana:Arcane Lore, Arcane Rituals, Planar Lore

Athletics:run, swim, climb

Intrigue: Forgery, Disguise, Escape artist

Influence: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimdate

History:Local History, Ancient History, Geography
 
Engineering: Open Locks, Disable Device, find/remove traps

Religion:Religeous Lore, Divine Rituals, Astrology

Streetwise: Appraise, insight(sense motive), gather information

Stealth: Sleight of hand, Move Silently, Hide

Perception: Listen, Search, Spot

Nature: knowledge nature, survival, herbalism

Animal afinity:animal handling/training, track, ride

Profession, craft, decipher script, and healing would be relegated to background traits or in the case of healing to a specialty.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

That sounds good to me.  Most of the work that remains, IMO, is coming up with the specialties for the remaining skills.

Acrobatics: Tumble, ?, ?
Athletics: Climb, Swim, Jump

That's all I got for now (got work in a few hours and still have to sleep).

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Acrobatics:

Tumble, balance, (escape artist?)

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

Note I'd like to start this thread by hammering out the skill system. Once we have something that works well we can move on to modular solutions in other areas.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

How about ,  
Athletics: Climb, running, swimming.
Then add Jump to acrobatics.

Good call sir.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

- Talking (Persuasion/Diplomacy, Deception and Intimidate)
- Stealth (Sneaking, Picking Pockets, Slight of Hand)
- Studious (Appraise, Spellcraft, Speak Language)
- Trapster (Disable Device, Open Lock,
- Operative (Disguise, Forgery, Perform)
- Trade (Craft, Handle Animal, Profession)
That sounds right.
Promitheas- Come on I SEE YOU! Join in.
- Talking (Persuasion/Diplomacy, Deception and Intimidate)
- Stealth (Sneaking, Picking Pockets, Slight of Hand)
- Studious (Appraise, Spellcraft, Speak Language)
- Trapster (Disable Device, Open Lock,
- Operative (Disguise, Forgery, Perform)
- Trade (Craft, Handle Animal, Profession)

How abourt the Name "Oratory or Orator" for thew conersation or speaking skills?
I like

Social: bluff, diplomacy, intimidate

Thievery: move silently, hide, sleight of hand

Gadgetry: open lock, disable device, escape artist

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

Not bad Mike.
Thanks Ron.

How about

Animal handler: Calm animal, ride, animal training

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

- Talking (Persuasion/Diplomacy, Deception and Intimidate)
- Stealth (Sneaking, Picking Pockets, Slight of Hand)
- Studious (Appraise, Spellcraft, Speak Language)
- Trapster (Disable Device, Open Lock,
- Operative (Disguise, Forgery, Perform)
- Trade (Craft, Handle Animal, Profession)

How abourt the Name "Oratory or Orator" for thew conersation or speaking skills?



I was writing quickly, thus all the wondrously descriptive words up and left my poor, feeble brain. ;)

Oratory works really well. There has to be a different word for Trapster... Trapmaking? That implies creation. Trap Working? Kind of cumbersome... Device Fiddler...? Na.
And perhaps

Woodsman:track, survival, wilderness lore

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

You could make a broad skill that encompasses Animal Handling, Healing and Survival... Basically knowledge of the natural world and how to interact with it. Maybe dump Healing and add Knowledge Nature?
Looks like we are on the same page elf.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

Looks like we are on the same page elf.


Aye! Cool
Elf-For the trap finding and disableing of traps Mechanical knack or," lockbreaker"!
Come on Ron.

Give me some inspiration.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

Herbalism, Forageing, plant identification, but what's a good broad skill name?
Botany?

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

They all fall in that catagory, the study of plants.
That was my reasoning. Just worried it sounds too modern.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

Someone get a frigging thesarus quick! (You are all what's a ther.. what ever the hell he just wrote...Stupid guy.)
I prefer the name Speech to encapsulate the : Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate (and perform?)

I also think the name Engineering could work for detect trap/disable trap & devices if this is put as INT skill, and also because you could justify even more to use that skill to mechanical devices knowledge, because there is no knowledge on D&D from what i know that goes for that.
Or just

Trapper: detect traps, disable traps, set traps

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

How is this list:

- Acrobatics (Balancing, Escape Artist, Tumbling)
- Animal Husbandry (Animal Training, Animal Handling and Riding)
- Athletics (Climbing, Jumping, Swimming)
- Esoteric Knowledge (Arcane Lore, Religious Lore, Planar Lore)
- Mundane Knowledge (Geography, History, Tactics)
- Nimble Fingers (Disable Device, Open Lock, Picking Pockets)
- Oratory (Persuasion, Deception, Intimidate)
- Perception (Listening, Spotting, Searching)
- Stealth (Hiding, Sneaking, Slight of Hand)
- Studious (Appraise, Medicinal Lore, Speak Language)
- Spying (Decipher Script, Disguise, Forgery)
- Trade (Craft, Perform, Profession)
- Woodsman (Hunting, Natural Lore, Tracking)



EDIT: Change a few names.
How is this list:

- Acrobatics (Balancing, Escape Artist, Tumbling)
- Animal Husbandry (Animal Training, Animal Handling and Riding)
- Athletics (Climbing, Jumping, Swimming)
- Arcane Knowledge (Arcana, Religion, the Planes)
- Mundane Knowledge (Geography, History, Tactics)
- Nimble Fingers (Disable Device, Open Lock, Picking Pockets)
- Oratory (Persuasion, Deception, Intimidate)
- Perception (Listening, Spotting, Searching)
- Stealth (Hiding, Sneaking, Slight of Hand)
- Studious (Appraise, Medicine, Speak Language)
- Spying (Decipher Script, Disguise, Forgery)
- Trade (Craft, Perform, Profession)
- Woodsman (Hunting, Natural Lore, Tracking)



I think Spying and Stealth could be mixed together to make: Infiltration!
How is this list:

- Acrobatics (Balancing, Escape Artist, Tumbling)
- Animal Husbandry (Animal Training, Animal Handling and Riding)
- Athletics (Climbing, Jumping, Swimming)
- Arcane Knowledge (Arcana, Religion, the Planes)
- Mundane Knowledge (Geography, History, Tactics)
- Nimble Fingers (Disable Device, Open Lock, Picking Pockets)
- Oratory (Persuasion, Deception, Intimidate)
- Perception (Listening, Spotting, Searching)
- Stealth (Hiding, Sneaking, Slight of Hand)
- Studious (Appraise, Medicine, Speak Language)
- Spying (Decipher Script, Disguise, Forgery)
- Trade (Craft, Perform, Profession)
- Woodsman (Hunting, Natural Lore, Tracking)



I think Spying and Stealth could be mixed together to make: Infiltration!



I don't think Joe Bob the Thief is going to be using Decipher Script, Disguise and Forgery. Likewise Elharala the Courtesan would not stoop to sneaking, hiding or slight of hand (she has people for that).

How is this list:

- Acrobatics (Balancing, Escape Artist, Tumbling)
- Animal Husbandry (Animal Training, Animal Handling and Riding)
- Athletics (Climbing, Jumping, Swimming)
- Esoteric Knowledge (Arcane Lore, Religious Lore, Planar Lore)
- Mundane Knowledge (Geography, History, Tactics)
- Nimble Fingers (Disable Device, Open Lock, Picking Pockets)
- Oratory (Persuasion, Deception, Intimidate)
- Perception (Listening, Spotting, Searching)
- Stealth (Hiding, Sneaking, Slight of Hand)
- Studious (Appraise, Medicinal Lore, Speak Language)
- Spying (Decipher Script, Disguise, Forgery)
- Trade (Craft, Perform, Profession)
- Woodsman (Hunting, Natural Lore, Tracking)



EDIT: Change a few names.

 Elf-You are on the right track.


Where's my 4e. crowd at ? Where's your imput folks. I want to hear from hear from you!   
I think running should belong to endurance.

so something like

athletics: jump, swim, climb

acrobatics: balance, tumble, escape artist

endurance: running, hold breath, fortitude (replaces poison and disease saves)

stealth: sleight of hand, hide, move silently

thievery: open locks, disable device, trapmaking! (i love trapmaking back from 2e!)
or go with gadgetry and add appraise insted of escape artist?

influence?: disguise, intimidate, streewise

nature: nature lore, tracking, survival

orator: bluff, insight, diplomacy
Could be fine with swim somewhere else. By the way check your email man. You have a message.
Great suggestions.

Now the real question.

Does this approach satisfy the 4e broad skill preference as well as it satisfies my 3e preferences? And furthermore how does it feel from a 2e preference?

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

If you want  could post the rules fro m the AD&D 2e. NWP. list to help quantify what our ideas are like in comparison. I just have to do a little leg work for that option.  That would also spur us onward. They are detailed.
That would be great Ron.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

Someone who has the 4e info handy please post the 4e skill list.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.


I don't think Joe Bob the Thief is going to be using Decipher Script, Disguise and Forgery. Likewise Elharala the Courtesan would not stoop to sneaking, hiding or slight of hand (she has people for that).




Actually, thiefs guild memebers did used infiltration and spying techniques, they were more spies or agents, they infiltrated other organizations by going undercover...and this is historic actually.

Elharala the courtesan know she have to steal documents and important papers from her clients sometimes.

Or maybe i am too stubborns to make rogues seems more like special agents, spies, femme fatales and mata haris, instead of i am an above average bandit/thief

EDIT: 4e skill list:

Acrobatics: Balance, Reduce Failing Damage, Acrobatic Stunt, Escape from Grab (vs Reflex), Escape from Restrain
Arcana: Arcane Knowledge, Monster Knowledge of elemental, fey and shadow origin, Detect Magic (training only)
Athletics: Climb, Jump, Swim, Escape from Grab (vs Fortitude)
Bluff: Lie, Acting, Perform, Pose yourself as someone else
Diplomacy: Very obvious.
Dungeoneering: Knowledge about survival and navigation of Caves and Dungeons, as well as Monster Knowledge of Aberrant origin (wish are extremly rare outside of these enviorement)
Endurance: Endure Weather, Hold Breath, Ignore Hunger/Thirst, Run or Swim for a considerable amount of time
Heal: First Aid, Treat Disease, Forensics
History: ...very obvious, it also include cities names, important people, political organization of the nation/empire/kingdom.
Insight: Sense Motive, Attitudes, Outside Influence, Psychology, Recognize a illusion
Intimidate: Be Scary, Threatening, make somebody surrender.
Nature: Handle animal, survival skill on outdoor natural enviorements, Monster Knowledge of Natural origin, Forage
Perception: Spot, Listen, Smell, Detect Trap...Taste?
Religion: Religion Knowledge (Deities, Gods related), Monster Knowledge of Undead and Inmortal origin
Stealth: Hide, Silent Movement, Hide things
Streetwise: Be able to gather information on urban enviorements such as towns and cities, blend with the crowd, etc...
Thievery: Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Disable Trap/Device, Understand and Manipulate mechanical devices, make a restrain with a rope (the higher your check, the harder for the one restrained to escape)

There is way to use some uses of some skills by other to some extend on 4e and there are alot of uses and improvisation uses for skills, but i didn't put those because i am too lazy to type and go and grab my rules compedium
Mex,

I think with rogues having basically 2 backgrounds that separating those two is a good idea.

It also allows you to have a pure spy type along with your cut purse.

You wouldn't need to choose between them but if you wanted to drop either spect you could.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

4e skills:

Acrobatics
Arcana
Athletics
Bluff
Diplomacy
Dungeoneering
Endurance
Heal
History
Insight
Intimidate
Nature
Perception
Religion
Stealth
Streetwise
Thievery

edit: Added Insight and Perception
Thank you again thewok.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

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