Sorceror Issue, Largely Attirbute Bonus Based

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To begin with, I'll say that I think the Sorceror and Warlock are unnecessary. They're just different flavors of Wizard and should be done as builds or sub-classes, not independent classes. To boot, the Wizard gets a wimpy 1d4 while the Warlock gets 1d6 and the Sorceror gets 1d8, and the dragonblood build gets the weapons and armor perks that make him pretty damned formidable right off the bat. (Sounds like somebody in design has a woody for the sorceror.) I don't think the other class features offset this very well. However, when one of my players wanted to give it a shot, I wasn't going to say no. I could be wrong. Gods know it's happened before.

What's at issue here is not whether or not I like the Sorceror as a class, but how this first level Sorceror came out. Going by the book, I am faced with a legitimately rolled STR14, DEX18, CON18, INT19, WIS17, CHA21. That's a +1 to each stat for being human and a further +2 to CON or CHA, which the player chose CHA. The player got some fantastic rolls right there in front of my own eyes, and I'm not one to poo-poo good fortune, but it seems a bit much to be adding +1 to every Attribute just for being human and then a further +2 to an Attribute just for being a Sorceror.

I'm going to let this character stand, but was wondering if anyone else came up with a super-hero sorceror because of the bonuses?
I don't see anything in the playtest that gives Sorcerors a particularly large bonus, besides a +1 to Charisma or Constitution (every class gets a +1 bonus to a key attribute). The problem might be with Humans, which several people have pointed out do have an unreasonably large bonus to abilies (+1 to every ability except one, which gets +2). 
Additionally, keep in mind that stats max out at 20 for player characters, so you wouldn't be able to have a 21 in Charisma. Period. Since at 4th level (and presumably later ones as well) characters get to boost 2 scores by +1, the character probably wouldn't be that much different 
Finally, breaking down your character (subtracting one from each stat from human, and assuming the +3 was asigned based on human and sorceror bonuses), it looks like he got the following rolls: 13, 17, 17, 18, 16, 18. Honestly, that would be pretty ridiculous for any starting character, especially with the human bonuses. I wish I could roll that well!
Anyway, my point is that the problem doesn't lie in the sorceror class - lots of overpowered first level characters could be built with that array of scores.
Such is the chance you take as a DM when you go with the random roll route.I have seen some awesome rolls,I have however seen far more dissapointing rolls (like toons strugling to break 12 in a single score).


Honestly it seems like the stats rolled are the issue here,any class/race is going to seem overpowered with those numbers.


I see the draconic Sorceror as a nice mix of meele and magic.After all as the wizard/fighter level they double the Sorceror's attack bonus showing that they are far more focused in what they do.
Do you think the trade-off is fair? A d8 for hps plus unfettered use of armor and shields and a nice weapon selection while the wizard gets no armor or shields, very limited weapons (though the crossbow addition is appreciated) and a d4 for hps? The limited spell selection hardly seems worth worrying about when you can open up a can of whup-ass with a good melee weapon. I haven't seen the Willpower deal in play yet (game is this weekend), so I don't know how much of an impact it will have. As it stands, I'm wondering why anyone would play a traditional wizard.

Thoughts? I'm eager for the weekend to get here so I can see what happens. I suppose if they plan to go this route and not bring in the Swordmage later on it'll be tolerable. I see the Swordmage as a bit redundant with a competent melee/magic PC like the sorceror.
Do you think the trade-off is fair? A d8 for hps plus unfettered use of armor and shields and a nice weapon selection while the wizard gets no armor or shields, very limited weapons (though the crossbow addition is appreciated) and a d4 for hps? The limited spell selection hardly seems worth worrying about when you can open up a can of whup-ass with a good melee weapon. I haven't seen the Willpower deal in play yet (game is this weekend), so I don't know how much of an impact it will have. As it stands, I'm wondering why anyone would play a traditional wizard.

Thoughts? I'm eager for the weekend to get here so I can see what happens. I suppose if they plan to go this route and not bring in the Swordmage later on it'll be tolerable. I see the Swordmage as a bit redundant with a competent melee/magic PC like the sorceror.





I think you are focusing a little too heavy on the phisical of the Sorceror yes a d8 would be nice for the wizzard but look at how much better the wiz is at what he does compaired to the Sorceror.




1st lvl Sor- magicattack-2 spellsave-10 +cha mod spells known-2 (can use either spell a total of 3 times before being depleted)
1st lvl Wiz- magicattack-3 spellsave-11 +int (a very nice bonus) spells known-5 (having to prepair 3 ahead of time)     



So as you can see the Wiz starts out way ahead of the Sorceror in terms of casting,and by 5th level the two are even further apart in that area as the Wiz will have an addtional magical attack,increased spell save dc and a full level of spells more the the Sorceror.


Granted the Sorceror is going to have more HP and the ability to use armors/weapons but thats only because it looks like they are taking the class that route.I think the Sorceror will be a fine addtion to any group,I am looking forward to hearing about your playtest.
Thanks. That cleared up quite a bit. Sometimes I don't think far enough ahead on the mathematics.
Thanks. That cleared up quite a bit. Sometimes I don't think far enough ahead on the mathematics.

Dont mention it,I'm still interested in hearing back from you about the playest

Will do! Game starts tomorrow, and then I'll have to be sure to keep notes. After seeing the others' sheets, things are looking smooth. I may have jumped the gun, I admit!
The Sorcerer is woefully underpowered when compared to either the Wizard or the Fighter.

The thing the developers forgot the think about was that the actions of an Sorcerer are "either/or", not "and".

So the Sorcerer can either attack crappier than a Fighter or cast a spell crappier than a Wizard with fewer choices. Either way they are an under powered class...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
If they could make missle/melee attacks as well as a fighter AND cast spells as well as a wizard they would be overpowered.  As it is it's called "versatility".
Also remember, the sorcerer casts spontaneously (advantage on wizard) as well as being able to pace themselves more than the wizard (spending all WP on low level spells) or at the other end of the scale, going further nova than a wizard (spending all WP on high level spells)
Even without the ability bonuses, that player rolled really well.  That highlights my problem with rolling ability scores.  I think the real issue is the high rolls, because that is an abnormally high randomly rolled scores.  Those high rolled ability scores would make any pc superheroic
In spite of the risks of superheroic rolls, I prefer die rolling to what I feel are the restrictions of point-buy or standard arrays. (That and my group like the randomness of not knowing what they'll get.) One thing this PC has made me appraciate (but not to the extent to say I "like" it) is the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic. In spite of his awesome rolls, he had disadvantage in a situation not long ago (break time during the game right now) and managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of what would have been a guaranteed victory.
If they could make missle/melee attacks as well as a fighter AND cast spells as well as a wizard they would be overpowered.  As it is it's called "versatility".



Only if they could do it in the same round. Otherwise they would be equal to a fighter (without the CS dice) and equal to a Wizard (without the variety in spells)...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Aye, to be honest this reminds me much of a spellblade from 3.5. Only had enough magic to be good at singlar targetting and good enough a fighter to be duriable. Though you required at least 4 good stats to pull it off correctly.

Which is a interesting point, to my knowledge the Sorc doesn't learn any area of effects nor the more flexible abilities that the wizard has, nor the capability to learn beyond levelling up.

However, I believe once you get to later levels, the sorc at least becomes considerably more duriable with the ability to resist damage 10 when needed. It strikes me more as a Clericy character, not that great at fighting compared to the Fighter, but can tank and do something else.
I feel like you can customize enough with race background and specialty that two sorcerer's can feel totally different and that goes with all classes which is something that I find very exciting
If they could make missle/melee attacks as well as a fighter AND cast spells as well as a wizard they would be overpowered.  As it is it's called "versatility".



I agree, and as I stated in another thread, I ran my game with 7 players, 2 were the new sorc, 1 was the warlock.  The warlock's raw damage is great, but only barely outclasses the melee dps builds for very short bursts (1 time per will they want to spend.)

The fighters Combat Superiority made them PERFECT for any fighting role, and made them vastly outshine the sorc in melee, but the sorc was a decent middle ground balanced character.
I'm really not goetting the opinions of people who say that the sorceror is underpowered. 
The ability to cast while wearing armour is incredibly powerful when combined with the larger hit dice making the caster a much harder target, in addition while he does have fewer spells to sling around he is rewarded for doing so. Burning willpower giving him more damage as well as later on giving him damage resistance too. 
I'm really not goetting the opinions of people who say that the sorceror is underpowered. 
The ability to cast while wearing armour is incredibly powerful when combined with the larger hit dice making the caster a much harder target, in addition while he does have fewer spells to sling around he is rewarded for doing so. Burning willpower giving him more damage as well as later on giving him damage resistance too. 



The save DCs are lower and their spell list is very limited. I've run the numbers and they deal less damage than a Fighter or a Wizard in any given round and generally their spells and features are geared toward dealing damage. The cause fear spell being spammed isn't really comparable because the Wizard can do it at least once per encounter and have more targets affected by it because of their higher DC. To be effective in combat the Sorcerer must split their primary stat between Charisma and Strength which means they are either mediocre at both or slightly less effective at one or the other than the Fighter and Wizard.

If you want a weak armored caster then the Sorcerer is fine for that, but they are trading survivability for effectiveness...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
To begin with, I'll say that I think the Sorceror and Warlock are unnecessary. They're just different flavors of Wizard and should be done as builds or sub-classes, not independent classes.


I know this hasn't been discussed much in this thread, but since you brought it up, I want to voice passionate disagreement.

The guiding principle behind class design for D&D Next is "find a fantasy archetype, then create a character class based on its universal trademarks and inspired by its iconic members."  Wizards and Sorcerers are inspired by radically different archetypes.  The Wizard is the learned sage, the absent-minded old scholar, the loremaster, and the mighty master of arcane subtleties: the Gandalf, the Elmister, and the Merlin.  Sorcerers do not find magic, they are found by magic.  Theirs is untamed, undisciplined, raw power.  They didn't ask for this power, and in fact, if they had any hopes of leading a normal life, it was taken away by this strange, burning magic.  I'd say most RPG mage characters, from Final Fantasy to Dragon Age, are something more like this.

Sure, they both take actions to cast spells, and some of their spells probably overlap, but that's pretty much where the similarities end.  Just like the Rogue and Fighter, who both generally like to apply the pointy end of sharp metal objects to their enemies but apply radically different martial and non-martial skillsets to the art of survival.

And that's where the balance between the Sorcerer and Wizard needs to start, too.  I like what they've done: the Sorcerer's spells are unsubtle.  They release waves of fire and arcing electricity.  The Wizard, with all his years, is who you want to ask if you want something more intricate done, like a room full of guards put to sleep, a weapon enchanted, or a rope manipulated.  The Sorcerer, I get the feeling, is going to end up being the more powerful combatant, one way or another, like the Fighter.  But the Wizard will be the spellcaster you don't leave home without, much like the Rogue.

All that said, the Wizard feels a little constrained relative to the Sorcerer.  Pretty much the exact same spells per day (compare the willpower chart to the spells per day chart!), but if he's to invest in utility spells, then few of them will be dedicated to combat.  Contrast to the Sorcerer, who will be armed to the teeth with combat spells, and in addition has his Sorcerous Origin to lean on when the going gets tough!  More flexible spellcasting or simply more spells per day on the Wizard would go some way toward freeing the class up.