Doesn't Feel Like a Sorcerer

This doesn't feel like a Sorcerer to me. I started playing in 3E and the Sorcerer was my bread and butter. I've always hated vancian magic and elitist wizards. Wizards master magic through research and study. Warlocks take the easy road to magic by making a pact with some powerful being.

But Sorcerers are born magical. It is in their blood. They grow up using magic, becoming more powerful the more they use it. Magic is like a muscle to Sorcerers, an integral part of their body that they don't know how to live without it.

Alright enough without how I feel about Sorcerer's.

My main point is that magic is in a Sorcerer's blood, NOT in his second dragon soul or whatever it is. While the magic blood in a Sorcerer may come from a dragon ancestor, I don't think that that dragon lost part of its soul during procreation. While trying to control your inner demons and transforming when you no longer can may seem fun, it is not a Sorcerer. A Sorcerers magical ability is as a part of him as his arm and he has just as much control over it. Struggling to stay normal is what the Hulk does, not a Sorcerer.

And mechanically it doesn't feel like a Sorcerer. The idea of willpower is good, although a name change is in order, but a caster in heavy armor using a sword and shield is not a Sorcerer.  Even the warmage only had light armor in 3.X.

Get rid of the possessed soul thing and reduce the armor. If you want a melee Sorc give him light/medium armor and if he wants a shield make it a magical force shield like what the Swordmage had in 4E. And give him more magically buffs, either through spells or class features. And don't just give him Wizards spells you think work in melee, give him cool spells to use in melee. I want my melee Sorc to send a wave of force through a group of enemies and then slash the remainig bad guy with his flaming sword. Basically a melee sorc should be a jedi/elemenalist mix.

Hopefully the caster Sorc spec will be better.
Umm... I searched through the design document and Possessed soul never came up. Infact soul was only mentioned in cleric's bio. As far as the Armor proficiency they make mention that not all sorcerer heritages will have the same armor prof. 
Ant Farm
So you just basically want to play an easier version of wizard.
The soul thing he is talking about comes from the Legends and Lore article on the two new classes. 

Whilst I must admit the L&L article description of sorcerer is kind of weird, the description in the playtest packet is much clearer, and overall much better.

Yes the sorcerer seems different from the 3.X sorcerer, but this is bad? 3.X sorcerer was a bland copy of wizard with a different spellcasting system. This allows sorcerer to maintain it's spellcasting abilities but gain needed features to differentiate it from other arcane casters. I say good riddance to the 3.X bland sorcerer :P 
My two copper.
This doesn't feel like a Sorcerer to me. I started playing in 3E and the Sorcerer was my bread and butter. I've always hated vancian magic and elitist wizards. Wizards master magic through research and study. Warlocks take the easy road to magic by making a pact with some powerful being.

But Sorcerers are born magical. It is in their blood. They grow up using magic, becoming more powerful the more they use it. Magic is like a muscle to Sorcerers, an integral part of their body that they don't know how to live without it.

Alright enough without how I feel about Sorcerer's.

My main point is that magic is in a Sorcerer's blood, NOT in his second dragon soul or whatever it is. While the magic blood in a Sorcerer may come from a dragon ancestor, I don't think that that dragon lost part of its soul during procreation. While trying to control your inner demons and transforming when you no longer can may seem fun, it is not a Sorcerer. A Sorcerers magical ability is as a part of him as his arm and he has just as much control over it. Struggling to stay normal is what the Hulk does, not a Sorcerer.

And mechanically it doesn't feel like a Sorcerer. The idea of willpower is good, although a name change is in order, but a caster in heavy armor using a sword and shield is not a Sorcerer.  Even the warmage only had light armor in 3.X.

Get rid of the possessed soul thing and reduce the armor. If you want a melee Sorc give him light/medium armor and if he wants a shield make it a magical force shield like what the Swordmage had in 4E. And give him more magically buffs, either through spells or class features. And don't just give him Wizards spells you think work in melee, give him cool spells to use in melee. I want my melee Sorc to send a wave of force through a group of enemies and then slash the remainig bad guy with his flaming sword. Basically a melee sorc should be a jedi/elemenalist mix.

Hopefully the caster Sorc spec will be better.

Go back and watch the GenCon Keynote address... The dragon sorcerer is only one style, and they want a sorcerer's magic to stem from many things. It could be a curse from some powerful entity, a lineage of warlocks manifesting innate magical powers, the blood of an innately magical creature (like dragons), or just being born under an auspicious moment.

I see where they were going with the dragon sorcerer and even with it's weapon and armor proficiencies. It gives that paladin-ish hybrid style for arcane casters, which many will love and beg for otherwise, and highlights an interesting concept in a mana-based caster: What if depletion of their mana has an impact on them too? With the dragon sorcerer that makes them more and more of a warrior over time as they deplete their magic, but assuming they will still keep wild mages as sorcerers as in 4th ed, as it makes sense, What if the wild mage's spells get slightly more (or less) erratic as their willpower wanes?  What if the powers that match up with the 2 draconic powers that the dragon-blood sorc gets are spells that are designed to add that wild-magic to your enemy's spell in a negative way?

The potential with they way they are described still leaves a LOT of room for interpretation. They aren't saying that the sorcerer is possessed (although that is a distinct possibility). They are simply saying that the creature a side (soul if you will) that they have to fight against to harness their magic. They are saying that an aspect of them is truly uncontrollable for ANYONE but a sorcerer, and even they can be taken over by this side. They pulse with such strong magical energies in whatever lineage they have that it WANTS to break free and take them over.

That dragon-blooded sorcerer's 'second-soul'... his second half... is trying to escape and turn him in to a dragon, not just a strange mage. Learning to harness the magic that is innate to him is his only way to fight against or for this change intentionally. It's very poetic IMHO. 
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This doesn't feel like a Sorcerer to me. I started playing in 3E and the Sorcerer was my bread and butter. I've always hated vancian magic and elitist wizards. Wizards master magic through research and study. Warlocks take the easy road to magic by making a pact with some powerful being.

But Sorcerers are born magical. It is in their blood. They grow up using magic, becoming more powerful the more they use it. Magic is like a muscle to Sorcerers, an integral part of their body that they don't know how to live without it.

Alright enough without how I feel about Sorcerer's.

My main point is that magic is in a Sorcerer's blood, NOT in his second dragon soul or whatever it is. While the magic blood in a Sorcerer may come from a dragon ancestor, I don't think that that dragon lost part of its soul during procreation. While trying to control your inner demons and transforming when you no longer can may seem fun, it is not a Sorcerer. A Sorcerers magical ability is as a part of him as his arm and he has just as much control over it. Struggling to stay normal is what the Hulk does, not a Sorcerer.

And mechanically it doesn't feel like a Sorcerer. The idea of willpower is good, although a name change is in order, but a caster in heavy armor using a sword and shield is not a Sorcerer.  Even the warmage only had light armor in 3.X.

Get rid of the possessed soul thing and reduce the armor. If you want a melee Sorc give him light/medium armor and if he wants a shield make it a magical force shield like what the Swordmage had in 4E. And give him more magically buffs, either through spells or class features. And don't just give him Wizards spells you think work in melee, give him cool spells to use in melee. I want my melee Sorc to send a wave of force through a group of enemies and then slash the remainig bad guy with his flaming sword. Basically a melee sorc should be a jedi/elemenalist mix.

Hopefully the caster Sorc spec will be better.



haha, sorry kinda funny.  You definitely didn't read the sorcerer right.  The sorcerer is no different than before, magic runs through his blood, it's a part of him.  Sorcerers' magic come from their bloodlines where they inherit their powers from various sources.  So they're basically part X, X being the creature's bloodline.  In the case of the playtest, all we have is draconic.  So whatever race you pic for a sorcerer, you will always be part dragon.  Which is why because of your wild, natural born magic you have draconic traits.  The whole point isn't some "dual soul" or "possessed soul", it's just the natural magic in your blood.  A sorcerer uses their will to channel the magic, to control it which is what they've already done the only difference in this version is that when the sorcerer can't bend their magic to their will anymore it shines through naturally.

Basically the sorcerer is naturally part X, or in this case part dragon and thus has some scales, maybe claws and slitted eyes or whatever.  But they use their will to contain their own natural magic so it does show so obviously.  Funny how you say you loved the 3x sorcerer, all they were were wizards, I mean there really was very little difference aside from them not being able to add spells to their list by studying scrolls.  As for the melee aspect, this is again ONE bloodline.  One type of sorcerer, do you serious think every sorcerer is going to get all armor and weapons training and such?  No, there'd be no point in separate bloodlines in that case.  It makes sense for a draconic sorcerer to be tough, to be able to fight aside from casting spells, so what?

The thing is the draconic sorcerer is meant to blast out spells and once their WP(will points) are depleted they can take up their sword and still actually contribute unlike the bloody wizard.  They aren't meant to wade into combat swinging a sword in one hand and blasting a spell in another.  Yes the draconic sorcerer can fend decently well in melee but they aren't melee casters, they are spell casters that can either cast spells or fight in melee, one or the other not both at the same time.
Doesnt Feel Lİke a Sorcerer to me either. And I might add these:

There is a few major problems with Sorcerer for me.

1. Is Sorcerer a Player Character or a Player "Creature"? When spent Willpower growing claws, dragonscales is awesome as an Online Game but when I looked from RP perspective being a "monster" surely change Character's Personality. What is the difference being a Lycanthrop and being a Sorcerer? Don't misunderstand me I "LOVE" having heritage but there must be another way to do this on Draconic Heritage. For example Claws can be abstract spell or spell-like ability not physical claws. like magical claws when Sorcerer make a claw attack with his hands there can be magical illusion above hands like claws. And There can be more artistic ways for creating variety for example While casting a spell changing eye color and shape like a dragon is an awesome feature. I always do that to my characters. And there can be more adjustment on character's heritage selection like another +1 Str. +1 Cons. and +1 Fort. Save on 1. level +3 Fort Save on 3. level and etc. for Draconic Heritage.

2. Sorcerers magic must be more irresistible than other spellcasters'. Because of power of inner and raw magic. There was a sentence on 4th edition: "If wizards wield magic as fighters wield swords, a sorcerer's magic is the arcing greataxe of a raging barbarian." That explains my thought exactly. Other classes especially Wizard is figuring out how to do it how they can shape the spell. But Sorcerers are just doing it with raw power. And for that other classes DC must be lower and Sorcerer's must be higher and especially Attack Bonus must be higher for sorcerer, of course. Magic Attack +2 and 10 + Cha. mo. for DC on first 5 level is too low.

And I think, Weapon, shield, armor Proficiencies for Draconic Sorcerer is too much.

I hope I made myself clear with this catastrophic English Grammar. 

I think it is better to compare the Dragon Sorceror to a War Cleric, rather than compare it to a wizard, as I feel they fill the same slot of caster/melee hybrid.
I agree, the sorcerer we have been presented with doesn't feel much like a 3.x sorcerer. It also doesn't feel much like a 2e sorcerer...but let's not get into that.

But from my experience with the 3.5 sorcerer class, I'm okay with this! There wasn't really much of a "feel" to that class to begin with, they were just a Wizard that used the dump stat and had fewer spells they could cast more often (well, sort of). There was some vague allusion to maybe tracing their sorcery back to dragons, but the only flavor to a sorcerer was that they didn't work for their magic, it came to them.

And that's still there - a sorcerer is a spellcaster who has come into their power naturally. The difference is now the source that they draw power from is more fully explored. Now there's actually a price to their power, a constant battle to remain yourself. I find that significantly more interesting from a role-playing perspective than most portrayals of 3.x sorcerers I've seen - and the mechanics better reflect that "a sorcerer is not a wizard" now too.

Having a second Sorcerous Origin to see how different sorcerers might play would have really helped this playtest, though.
I will agree with the OP that we could use a more 3.x-ish sorcerous origin as an example.  I like the dragon sorc, but a blood mage/maho-tsukai type would be an extremely welcome counterpart.  The other sorc origins seen in 4e and Pathfinder are a distant 3rd place IMO (though I have a personal fondness for the wild mage/sorc).

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My take on the blood line powers is that the devs were looking for a way to spice up an otherwise unremarkable alternate wizard class, much the same way the warlock is more colorful. I shugged at the effort as being unnecessary but there is a major piece of the wizard still on the drawing board and it might be as radical and seemingly over powered as these other two classes appear. 

I'm not saying I like this, just that it seems plausible. So many people here complain that the vanilla charactres are boring. I think this is the root cause of these over the top classes. as they said before it's easier to tone things down than to make increases later on. I believe that once this round of testing is done the sorcerer and warlock will be more reasonable in the eyes of those who care about these things.

 
I like the new sorc, claws and all. What I do not like is this "twin-soul" thing, magic coming to sorc from something that feels external. What was cool about sorc is that he did not learn magic, he *was* magic. I guess I could be appeased with as little as them not using term "second soul" (sounds like from some cheap horror flick) and went with "second/arcane nature". So sorcerers could still go about saying "I am the boomstick" not "My second soul is a boomstick". Minor thing, but I would like that.
I like the new sorc, claws and all. What I do not like is this "twin-soul" thing, magic coming to sorc from something that feels external. What was cool about sorc is that he did not learn magic, he *was* magic. I guess I could be appeased with as little as them not using term "second soul" (sounds like from some cheap horror flick) and went with "second/arcane nature". So sorcerers could still go about saying "I am the boomstick" not "My second soul is a boomstick". Minor thing, but I would like that.



It really depends on what sorcerer description you look at. Yes in the Key Note address they explain it as a "two souls" type thing. But in the playtest packet it merely remarks that you could just have dragon blood. Being part dragon, how can you "be" more magical than that?
My two copper.
I like the new sorc, claws and all. What I do not like is this "twin-soul" thing, magic coming to sorc from something that feels external. What was cool about sorc is that he did not learn magic, he *was* magic. I guess I could be appeased with as little as them not using term "second soul" (sounds like from some cheap horror flick) and went with "second/arcane nature". So sorcerers could still go about saying "I am the boomstick" not "My second soul is a boomstick". Minor thing, but I would like that.



It really depends on what sorcerer description you look at. Yes in the Key Note address they explain it as a "two souls" type thing. But in the playtest packet it merely remarks that you could just have dragon blood. Being part dragon, how can you "be" more magical than that?



I know, that is why I liked the class more before Key Note address. It kinda spoiled the sorc for me (I'm wierd and I think fluff matters, a little). Especially since the way they put it in Key Note seems like they are really pushing in that direction. I hope they will leave this part of fluff more vague, this two-souls just doesn't sit well with me.
You went Sorceror instead of Wizard in 3e?  You poor, poor sap, you got snookered into loving the worst caster class in 3.x...

My absolute and sincere sympathies. 
You went Sorceror instead of Wizard in 3e?  You poor, poor sap, you got snookered into loving the worst caster class in 3.x...

My absolute and sincere sympathies. 



Most of the players in my group went Sorcerer. It's simple and easier to focus on something. If you want to throw fireballs around and not a whole lot else, sorcerer lets you do this with minimal complication and alot more often than a wizard

My two copper. 
My two copper.
I have to agree with the OP in this.
Okay, going to wikipedia here. There's actually an article just on the D&D sorcerer. Right here.

The sorcerer is a playable character class in the Dungeons & Dragons fantasy role-playing game. A sorcerer is weak in melee combat, but a master of arcane magic, the most generally powerful form of D&D magic. Sorcerers' magical ability is innate rather than studied. In the words of the 3.5 Player's Handbook: "Sorcerers create magic the way a poet creates poems, with inborn talent honed by practice."

The 5e sorcerer we have is not weak in melee combat, and is actually the equal of the war domain cleric. So that's not there.
No prior sorcerer has had a second soul. Or been transformed by using their magic. Both ideas are tacked on additions being forced into the sorcerer role. 

Okay, the ideas themselves are not bad. And D&D does always need a gish class. 3e had the duskblade. 4e had the swordmage. Pathfinder has the magus. That's good. But it's not the sorcerer and forcing the sorcerer into the melee magic user role just diminishes it and removes the potential for a good gish class, one that works with the fiction and history of the game. 

The base mechanic is solid. I love the idea of tying the trigger of sorcerer's powers to the amount of willpower expended. Which both makes it something else they can rely on when low in spells while also making their lower level powers more common.
But shapechanging. Growing claws.
That doesn't scream "sorcerer" to me. Okay, it's not not sorcerer. It's fine for the dragon blood sorcerer. But that's not the baseline. Otherer sorcerers should have other less polymorphy effects. 

Idealy their power would become harder to control.
Elemental sorcerers might have other elements bleed into their spells. Wild sorcerers would have bursts of chaos. They might leak bits of magic, being surrounded by auras or other effects. They might have a higher crit range or other effects on a crit to denote their swings in power. Or the fun 4e idea of different effects on a 1 or 20.  

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For one thing, notice that it is the only option available right now. In the Armor section of their proficiencies it states "None, see your sorcerous origin.". I bring you the example of the cleric, and how their two different domains grant different proficiencies and domain spells, and in turn create two completely different playstyles. It's probably expected that a more traditional Light or no armor sorcererous origin will come out. But they already have that right now for testing, it's called the wizard. They don't really need to test the mechanics of another no armor caster. So they are testing the Gish, of which there was no prior example, at least with arcane spells.

TLDR: Just wait, and I bet you will see a more traditional sorcerer build come out.
My two copper.


The base mechanic is solid. I love the idea of tying the trigger of sorcerer's powers to the amount of willpower expended. Which both makes it something else they can rely on when low in spells while also making their lower level powers more common.
But shapechanging. Growing claws.
That doesn't scream "sorcerer" to me. Okay, it's not not sorcerer. It's fine for the dragon blood sorcerer. But that's not the baseline. Otherer sorcerers should have other less polymorphy effects. 



"claw-like", your hands become claw-like not claws.  There's a definite difference.  It says in the playtest claw-like.  That can mean something as simple as your nails grow a little longer and harder, and maybe you unconsciously curl your fingers into a claw-like shape.  That isn't a drastic shapechanging, even the scales you get later can easily and most likely will be easily covered by your clothes.  People really are blowing the effects out of proportion with the sorcerer and warlock both.

And do you seriously think the other origins are going to be the exact same?  Some might have more noticable changes than others, but whatever. 
I am also one of those weird people who hates the "twin souls" terminology. That is really annoying when my main draw to the sorcerer is that it is your magic, from no external source.

However, complaining that the dragon sorcerer doesn't feel like a sorcerer is a bit silly to me just because it seems like it isn't supposed to feel like a normal sorcerer. Because a normal sorcerer feels like a wizard. Which they already have in the playtest. So, for now, we get the interesting gish sorcerer that many people, including myself, enjoy. The more traditional sorcerer (I'm really hoping for elemental and wild sorcerers for this) will certainly be an option eventually. And, seeing how well the dragon sorcerer was done, I have faith that even the caster-y sorcerers will be unique and interesting in their own ways. Getting different powers to use and other benefits as you run out of spells was a really good idea, no matter whether or not one likes the fluff of it. Mechanically, it's great.   
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The base mechanic is solid. I love the idea of tying the trigger of sorcerer's powers to the amount of willpower expended. Which both makes it something else they can rely on when low in spells while also making their lower level powers more common.
But shapechanging. Growing claws.
That doesn't scream "sorcerer" to me. Okay, it's not not sorcerer. It's fine for the dragon blood sorcerer. But that's not the baseline. Otherer sorcerers should have other less polymorphy effects. 



"claw-like", your hands become claw-like not claws.  There's a definite difference.  It says in the playtest claw-like.  That can mean something as simple as your nails grow a little longer and harder, and maybe you unconsciously curl your fingers into a claw-like shape.  That isn't a drastic shapechanging, even the scales you get later can easily and most likely will be easily covered by your clothes.  People really are blowing the effects out of proportion with the sorcerer and warlock both.

And do you seriously think the other origins are going to be the exact same?  Some might have more noticable changes than others, but whatever. 



The article suggests all sorcerers will have a physical change.
www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4...

The catch is this is a playtest. Feedback is important. They need to know if what they're doing works, if they're on the right track. 

Does this feel like a sorcerer? Is this the archetype of the sorcerer for you? Does this work as the base of all future sorcerers?
I say "no". It's cool and fun but not a sorcerer. It doesn't feel like the foundation for the sorcerer. It's a start but it needs work.  

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That article, in my opinion, kind of spits in the sorcerer's face.
"Hey, y'know how your magical abilities are a manisfestation of your innate power that you can use as you please? Lol jk it's a magic parasite living inside you that wants to kill you." 
I mean, both of the ideas can coincide and aren't inherently against eachother, but it's just so... degrading. 
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You went Sorceror instead of Wizard in 3e?  You poor, poor sap, you got snookered into loving the worst caster class in 3.x...

My absolute and sincere sympathies. 



Most of the players in my group went Sorcerer. It's simple and easier to focus on something. If you want to throw fireballs around and not a whole lot else, sorcerer lets you do this with minimal complication and alot more often than a wizard

My two copper. 



It is the best class to play a 'Blaster Wizard' in 3e.

Unfortunately, at higher levels, it's lack of spells that slow him down (the Wizard could in theory have the entire list, but it was dependant the DM.  However, just the way he levelled often he ended with more spells than the Sorceror ever could.)
Yeah I found the sorcerer flavor way off. I mean I could actually see the sorcerer mechanics as being perfect for a warlock, wher the more you tap into your dark powers, the more they warp your body. So the guy calling on Asmodeus starts to show some demonic features.

For a sorcerer, it doesn't make too much sense to me, because I would think his blood would get weaker the more he tapped his power. I don't see why it seems like he's controlling his dragon nature. It does feel more like the Hulk than what you think of in a conventional sorcerer.

I can see where they were going mechanically, I just don't know if the sorcerer is a good class to do that with. Personally I'd have the warlock work that way.


The article suggests all sorcerers will have a physical change.
www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4...

The catch is this is a playtest. Feedback is important. They need to know if what they're doing works, if they're on the right track. 

Does this feel like a sorcerer? Is this the archetype of the sorcerer for you? Does this work as the base of all future sorcerers?
I say "no". It's cool and fun but not a sorcerer. It doesn't feel like the foundation for the sorcerer. It's a start but it needs work.  



So how does it not "feel like a sorcerer"?  I mean they cast spells, that's basically all there is to a sorcerer aside from background fluff of their magic coming from them naturally instead of having to study it like the wizard.  You quote some text on wikipedia that basically describes the wizard as well as most of the cast classes in D&D games.  "They're weak in combat, but cast powerful magic".  And because one type of sorcerer can be decent in melee you feel it suddenly isn't a sorcerer just because the draconic origin does let it be weak in melee?  Sorry, just sounds bogus to me.  I mean I guess that's your opinion, just seems bogus because from your quote you just want another useless, bland, carbon copy wizard with the name sorcerer plastered over it like in 3x.  Because that's what you described in your post on the previous page especially if you're going by that wiki quote.

Don't really see how this can't work for a base for future origins.  The core of the sorcerer class is that you cast spells with WP, and once expended you gain new options from whatever your origin is which I think everyone can agree all the origins are not going to be exact duplicates of the dragonic origin.  But the core remains, they cast spells.  If you don't think that's archetype sorcerer then not sure what else can be done with just copy/pasting the wizard and changing the name to sorcerer. 
Yeah I found the sorcerer flavor way off. I mean I could actually see the sorcerer mechanics as being perfect for a warlock, wher the more you tap into your dark powers, the more they warp your body. So the guy calling on Asmodeus starts to show some demonic features.

For a sorcerer, it doesn't make too much sense to me, because I would think his blood would get weaker the more he tapped his power. I don't see why it seems like he's controlling his dragon nature. It does feel more like the Hulk than what you think of in a conventional sorcerer.

I can see where they were going mechanically, I just don't know if the sorcerer is a good class to do that with. Personally I'd have the warlock work that way.



I think the point is what would it mean to have that natural connection to magic. I read a cool description of Genasi for a 4e game (I'd never heard of them before that, but they were described as "half-elementals" and I couldn't resist). It said:

Imagine for a moment that every day, when you awaken, the first thing you feel is the heartbeat of the world around you. Imagine that each day, as you go about your tasks, you feel the ebb and flow of the very elements. Imagine that the elements are so strongly a part of you that your body feels bonded to the world around you. Imagine that the most common elements of the world are not just ingrained into your very being, but are also yours to command and to bend to your will (Ecology of the Genasi)


That is the vibe I feel they are going for with the sorcerer. You are tapped into primal sources of power, stuff most people can not touch without a fortress worth of mental defences almost literally lives inside of you. It may be a part of you, but controlling something like that is a titanic task. I see this as your "willpower" points being how much of that energy you can release before releasing any more would lead to you losing control. I would say it makes no sense for a sorcerer to get weaker as they use their power, because they are tapped directly into a power source. The "Elemental Chaos" isn't going to shrink from one guy using it's power... at least not as long as we want to rest of the planes existing afterwards. Instead that power becomes harder to keep a lid on, and it manifests physically as you have a harder time holding back your full potential.

I'm thinking less Hulk and more Nuclear Power Plant. You are never working at 100%, and for good reason.


The article suggests all sorcerers will have a physical change.
www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4...

The catch is this is a playtest. Feedback is important. They need to know if what they're doing works, if they're on the right track. 

Does this feel like a sorcerer? Is this the archetype of the sorcerer for you? Does this work as the base of all future sorcerers?
I say "no". It's cool and fun but not a sorcerer. It doesn't feel like the foundation for the sorcerer. It's a start but it needs work.  



So how does it not "feel like a sorcerer"?  I mean they cast spells, that's basically all there is to a sorcerer aside from background fluff of their magic coming from them naturally instead of having to study it like the wizard.  You quote some text on wikipedia that basically describes the wizard as well as most of the cast classes in D&D games.  "They're weak in combat, but cast powerful magic".  And because one type of sorcerer can be decent in melee you feel it suddenly isn't a sorcerer just because the draconic origin does let it be weak in melee?  Sorry, just sounds bogus to me.  I mean I guess that's your opinion, just seems bogus because from your quote you just want another useless, bland, carbon copy wizard with the name sorcerer plastered over it like in 3x.  Because that's what you described in your post on the previous page especially if you're going by that wiki quote.

Don't really see how this can't work for a base for future origins.  The core of the sorcerer class is that you cast spells with WP, and once expended you gain new options from whatever your origin is which I think everyone can agree all the origins are not going to be exact duplicates of the dragonic origin.  But the core remains, they cast spells.  If you don't think that's archetype sorcerer then not sure what else can be done with just copy/pasting the wizard and changing the name to sorcerer. 


It has the blood of dragons in its veins. It has the innate ability to wield potent magic. And because of that it can use chainmail and a longsword?
That's just weird.

And the transforming into a dragon thing, while cool, doesn't match prior sorcerers. It's not a generic class that can effortlessly fit into Dark Sun or the Realms or Dragonlance (where sorcerers have a big unique role). Because this is the base game.

Give me a sorcerer with swings in damage, range, and spell effects. A sorcerer that can empower spells or add effects and conditions onto existing spells. A sorcerer that can say "screw it, my fireball is dealing cold damage this round".

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I posted this on ENWorld:

Here are the big five reasons the playtest sorcerer does not work.

It isn't a wizard clone.
As weird as it sounds, this is an issue. The sorcerer is the class for people who like wizards/casters but dislike the default Vancian magic system.
As such, the sorcerer should still feel similar to a wizard. There should absolutely be differences, but the two classes should have more in common than not.

The solution to sorcerers being too much like the wizard is not to remove similarities but to add differences. Paladins are very similar to fighters, and the fix isn't to reduce paladin's armour and weapon choices while reducing hitpoints. 

The mechanic is revisionist.
The new sorcerer hook (transforming as spells are used) is brand new. It comes out of nowhere, having no real relation to prior sorcerers in the game or in the fiction. It's not an evolution like the fighter's mechanic or clerics channeling divinity.
Even the flavour seems like a justification. The fluff in Legends & Lore doesn't mesh with the fluff in the playtest. It reads like they added the mechanic and started changing and tweaking the story to fit the mechanic.

The unique mechanic doesn't mesh with the unique flavour.
The hook for sorcerers is that they have inborn magic power. The class' unique mechanic is that they transform as resources are spent. There's no overlap.
The willpower system doesn't count, as there's likely to be an optional module that lets wizards use it. Sorcerers exist so there's a core option that uses it for players whose DM only wants to use the core; if you replaced the willpower system with memorized Vancian spells, the sorcerer mechanic would still work.
The sorcerer's unique mechanic should directly relate to their inborn magic, to spells being an instinctive natural talent, in addition to magic being their heritage. 

It shouldn't affect what it does
In the current iteration of the rules, bloodline determines hit dice, armour proficiency, weapon proficiency, all in addition to bonus powers.
So... granddaddy was a brass dragon so you know how to use a greatsword? That's just effed up. 
I'm okay with sorcerers having higher HD than wizards (they're not bookworms). Leather armour and expanded weapons are also good (I liked them having spears in 3e). But, at the same points, it shouldn't go as far as it does. d8, heavy armour, shields, and all melee weapons are a bit much. Especially the recomended gear being a two-handed sword when they need a free hand to cast spells.

It steals the swordmage thunder.
We'll eventually have a Gish class. We need one. Whether it's a bladesinger or swordmage or duskblade or magus is irrelevant. It's a solid niche to be filled.
Forcing the sorcerer into the melee caster role does a disservice to both. It means we get a less than ideal sorcerer and a less than ideal swordmage. 
It'd be like calling the war domain build of the cleric "the paladin". It does the job fine and is an adequate compromise, but no one is really happy.  

5 Minute WorkdayMy Webcomic Updated Tue & Thur

Also check out my books at 5mwd.com/publishingIncluding Jester David's How-To Guide to Fantasy Worldbuildinga compilation of my blog series on Worldbuilding.

 

I posted this on ENWorld:

Here are the big five reasons the playtest sorcerer does not work.

It isn't a wizard clone.
As weird as it sounds, this is an issue.


An issue that goes away if all they're testing is the casting systems themselves, and perhaps later implement all three of them for all three classes.  Hell, you go on to say that it's likely the wizards will get its casting system - that is your wizard clone, and the sorcerer doesn't have to be.

Assuming that this is representative of a finished product is about the worst possible thing one could do, on just about every subject contained within the playtest.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I posted this on ENWorld:

Here are the big five reasons the playtest sorcerer does not work.

It isn't a wizard clone.
As weird as it sounds, this is an issue. The sorcerer is the class for people who like wizards/casters but dislike the default Vancian magic system.
As such, the sorcerer should still feel similar to a wizard. There should absolutely be differences, but the two classes should have more in common than not.

The solution to sorcerers being too much like the wizard is not to remove similarities but to add differences. Paladins are very similar to fighters, and the fix isn't to reduce paladin's armour and weapon choices while reducing hitpoints. 

The mechanic is revisionist.
The new sorcerer hook (transforming as spells are used) is brand new. It comes out of nowhere, having no real relation to prior sorcerers in the game or in the fiction. It's not an evolution like the fighter's mechanic or clerics channeling divinity.
Even the flavour seems like a justification. The fluff in Legends & Lore doesn't mesh with the fluff in the playtest. It reads like they added the mechanic and started changing and tweaking the story to fit the mechanic.

The unique mechanic doesn't mesh with the unique flavour.
The hook for sorcerers is that they have inborn magic power. The class' unique mechanic is that they transform as resources are spent. There's no overlap.
The willpower system doesn't count, as there's likely to be an optional module that lets wizards use it. Sorcerers exist so there's a core option that uses it for players whose DM only wants to use the core; if you replaced the willpower system with memorized Vancian spells, the sorcerer mechanic would still work.
The sorcerer's unique mechanic should directly relate to their inborn magic, to spells being an instinctive natural talent, in addition to magic being their heritage. 

It shouldn't affect what it does
In the current iteration of the rules, bloodline determines hit dice, armour proficiency, weapon proficiency, all in addition to bonus powers.
So... granddaddy was a brass dragon so you know how to use a greatsword? That's just effed up. 
I'm okay with sorcerers having higher HD than wizards (they're not bookworms). Leather armour and expanded weapons are also good (I liked them having spears in 3e). But, at the same points, it shouldn't go as far as it does. d8, heavy armour, shields, and all melee weapons are a bit much. Especially the recomended gear being a two-handed sword when they need a free hand to cast spells.

It steals the swordmage thunder.
We'll eventually have a Gish class. We need one. Whether it's a bladesinger or swordmage or duskblade or magus is irrelevant. It's a solid niche to be filled.
Forcing the sorcerer into the melee caster role does a disservice to both. It means we get a less than ideal sorcerer and a less than ideal swordmage. 
It'd be like calling the war domain build of the cleric "the paladin". It does the job fine and is an adequate compromise, but no one is really happy.  




I feel the need to disagree, or at least offer an alternate, to these points.

1) This is the arguement I feel is least effective. There is a rather large section of the fan-base that does not want the sorcerer to be a wizard clone. And for the people who want it to be a wizard clone so they can escape Vancian casting I point to your third point where you say "The willpower system doesn't count, as there's likely to be an optional module that lets wizards use it." If there will be a module that lets wizards use this system instead of Vancian System, then there is no need for the sorcerer to be a wizard clone, there will be a module for a wizard clone.

2) Another arguement I just can't find much meat to. Just because something has never been done before doesn't mean it is bad. Dungeons and Dragons started because Gary Gygax wanted to play individual heroes instead of platoons of soldiers in his war games. It'd never been done before, but I can't say it was a bad call. Also, the idea behind the transformations, as I point out in my above post, does have some connections to past ideas. Also, saying the fluff is being added afterwards again doesn't mean it is bad. I played a Savage Worlds game where I wanted a bookworm teacher, who also could fight and knew Bushido. Trying to explain this in his backstory led me to one of my best stories, how his mother died. Just because the mechanic came first doesn't mean much.

3) I covered this point in my above post. I actually feel it captures the feel of inborn magic extremely well. These aren't people who can turn on a light bulb with their mind. These are people born with lightning coursing through their veins. That stuff isn't easy to control.

4) This I can answer for the Draconic orgin only, since it is the only one we have. The Hit Dice makes sense. You've got dragonblood in your veins, you are tougher than most people because dragons are extremely tough creatures, newly born hatchlings can tear most humanoids apart. I feel the armor also goes into this, having draconic blood, I'd say'd feel more natural in armor as it is close to scales. But also as the transformation descriptions describe more violent and physical personalities, which I take to mean sorcerers of draconic origin are predisposed to similiar tools as fighters. They are physical, in-your-face people and as such have gravitated towards tools and defenses that reflect that. Just like the War Domain clerics. I'd assume other origins would also be "what is your preferred method of tackling a problem" since these traits are more nearly "in your blood" than they would be for a normal person.

5) By this arguement we shouldn't have war domain clerics, because they are steeping into the niche used by paladins. We don't know what other sorcerers will look like, but it is almost certain that a more traditional sorcerer would be found in a elemental or fey origin, since they would not have the same physical proclivities a dragon origin leads us to.
It steals the swordmage thunder.

It's pretty common logic that more than one Gish is going to be present throughout this itteration of D&D. We already have 2, War Cleric and Dragon Sorcerer. This is not even including Fighters that take Arcane Dabbler or Initiate of the Faith, which might lead to higher level spells later on. The swordmage has always felt tacked on, to me at least. It's never been a core class, and it always feels akward when compared to Paladins (Closest thing to Divine Gish). 

Either way, I have a feeling everyone is going to be stealing everyone's thunder, which is why they are trying to give each class unique mechanics. So that a gish sorcerer doesn't feel just like a gish warlock or wizard. As they are right now if I was playing a wizard with heavy armor and weapons, and my friend was playing a sorcerer with heavy armor and weapons, we would still play very differently. That is a GOOD thing.


Skipping to another post real quick.
 Give me a sorcerer with swings in damage, range, and spell effects. A sorcerer that can empower spells or add effects and conditions onto existing spells. A sorcerer that can say "screw it, my fireball is dealing cold damage this round".



To me this screams "Wizard". Experimenting with spells? Sounds more like wizard to me. 
My two copper.
1) This is the arguement I feel is least effective. There is a rather large section of the fan-base that does not want the sorcerer to be a wizard clone. And for the people who want it to be a wizard clone so they can escape Vancian casting I point to your third point where you say "The willpower system doesn't count, as there's likely to be an optional module that lets wizards use it." If there will be a module that lets wizards use this system instead of Vancian System, then there is no need for the sorcerer to be a wizard clone, there will be a module for a wizard clone.

I admit it is the weakest of the five. Sorcerers shouldn't be identical no, but they should occupy some of the same design space in the same way psions, warlocks, and invokers might. 
2) Another argument I just can't find much meat to. Just because something has never been done before doesn't mean it is bad. Dungeons and Dragons started because Gary Gygax wanted to play individual heroes instead of platoons of soldiers in his war games. It'd never been done before, but I can't say it was a bad call. Also, the idea behind the transformations, as I point out in my above post, does have some connections to past ideas. Also, saying the fluff is being added afterwards again doesn't mean it is bad. I played a Savage Worlds game where I wanted a bookworm teacher, who also could fight and knew Bushido. Trying to explain this in his backstory led me to one of my best stories, how his mother died. Just because the mechanic came first doesn't mean much.
If this were any other edition I'd agree more. But Next is presenting itself as the best-of edition, taking the key elements of prior editions.
There's lots of ways to make a wizard different, such as having them cast spells directly from a magic book or fueling their power with blood or having to recite magic words. Lots of ideas from fiction. But that doesn't necessarily mesh with the D&D feel. 
So much of the new sorcerer relies on these brand new ideas. The second soul, the bloodline taking over as willpower is expended, the physical change. It's a heck of a lot of brand new ideas. Apart from spells and the hint of being related to dragons, there's not a lot of overlap with existing versions of the sorcerer. 
3) I covered this point in my above post. I actually feel it captures the feel of inborn magic extremely well. These aren't people who can turn on a light bulb with their mind. These are people born with lightning coursing through their veins. That stuff isn't easy to control.

If it was control based it'd be different. Instead, as they spend resources they get more powerful and unlock new abilities. Nothing about that screams sorcerer. 
It's not like they couldn't think of anything else. There must be dozens of ways to suggest loss of control and raging natural magical power. Which is the frustrating bit. It's so needless. Instead of an undeniably awesome sorcerer class that screams "sorcerer" we get this. It's neat and not bad mechanically or flavourfully... but it's not what I think of as a sorcerer.
4) This I can answer for the Draconic orgin only, since it is the only one we have. The Hit Dice makes sense. You've got dragonblood in your veins, you are tougher than most people because dragons are extremely tough creatures, newly born hatchlings can tear most humanoids apart. I feel the armor also goes into this, having draconic blood, I'd say'd feel more natural in armor as it is close to scales. But also as the transformation descriptions describe more violent and physical personalities, which I take to mean sorcerers of draconic origin are predisposed to similiar tools as fighters. They are physical, in-your-face people and as such have gravitated towards tools and defenses that reflect that. Just like the War Domain clerics. I'd assume other origins would also be "what is your preferred method of tackling a problem" since these traits are more nearly "in your blood" than they would be for a normal person.

I'll buy the increased hit dice. The weapon and armour bonus sit less well with me.
5) By this argument we shouldn't have war domain clerics, because they are steeping into the niche used by paladins. We don't know what other sorcerers will look like, but it is almost certain that a more traditional sorcerer would be found in a elemental or fey origin, since they would not have the same physical proclivities a dragon origin leads us to.

This is a bit of a grey area. You're not wrong and in many ways the paladin is redundant. It survives because it's been grandfathered in. Ditto the ranger. It's a different story to add an overlap in now. 
I'm not sure other bloodlines will help. If the other builds are more traditional ranged sorcerers it makes this one stand out even more and seem like an oddball choice.

5 Minute WorkdayMy Webcomic Updated Tue & Thur

Also check out my books at 5mwd.com/publishingIncluding Jester David's How-To Guide to Fantasy Worldbuildinga compilation of my blog series on Worldbuilding.

 

To answer whether the weapon/armor profs make sense, I ask you this:


Why do fighters get weapon/armor profs?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
It steals the Psion thunder.

Psionic is innate magic, whose source is the brain.

Arcane magic is protoscience, studying and mastering the laws of the multiverse. The idea of “instinctively” knowing complex proto-astronomy, proto-chemistry, proto-physics, mathematics, and so on without learning it, is unlikely. “Innate Arcane” is an oxymoron. It would be like passing all the college exams for astronomy, chemistry, physics, and advanced mathematics, without ever having studied these topics - or even knowing the spoken language that these exams happen to be written in.

“Innate arcane” is an oxymoron. There is no such thing.

Innate magic is Psionic.
It steals the Psion thunder.

Psionic is innate magic, whose source is the brain.

Arcane magic is protoscience, studying and mastering the laws of the multiverse. The idea of “instinctively” knowing complex proto-astronomy, proto-chemistry, proto-physics, mathematics, and so on without learning it, is unlikely. “Innate Arcane” is an oxymoron. It would be like passing all the college exams for astronomy, chemistry, physics, and advanced mathematics, without ever having studied these topics - or even knowing the spoken language that these exams happen to be written in.

“Innate arcane” is an oxymoron. There is no such thing.

Innate magic is Psionic.  




tell that to every other edition of DnD that features ar sorc (or a bard, or any other spontanious arcane caster). and yes, that is how it should be, not because it's how it always has been.
It steals the Psion thunder.

Psionic is innate magic, whose source is the brain.

Arcane magic is protoscience, studying and mastering the laws of the multiverse. The idea of “instinctively” knowing complex proto-astronomy, proto-chemistry, proto-physics, mathematics, and so on without learning it, is unlikely. “Innate Arcane” is an oxymoron. It would be like passing all the college exams for astronomy, chemistry, physics, and advanced mathematics, without ever having studied these topics - or even knowing the spoken language that these exams happen to be written in.

“Innate arcane” is an oxymoron. There is no such thing.

Innate magic is Psionic.  

tell that to every other edition of DnD that features ar sorc (or a bard, or any other spontanious arcane caster). and yes, that is how it should be, not because it's how it always has been.

What “every other”? 3e and 4e?

The innate Psionic power source has been around since even *before* D&D, at the very origins of D&D, by Gygax himself! 0e and 1e.



Psionic is the iconic innate. 
i'm still waiting for a point haldrik

i'm pretty sure we aren't here to show off our DnD hipster scarves
The point is, the Sorcerer has no reason to exist. Has no tradition. Has no identity. And does nothing except step on the toes of other classes that already exist before it.
The point is, the Sorcerer has no reason to exist. Has no tradition. Has no identity. And does nothing except step on the toes of other classes that already exist before it.




and my point is, this isn't your game.

you are helping to create it (sadly) but the game and the intellectual property belongs to wizards of the coast. i'm pretty sure they are allowed to imagine their magic system however they want, and without your permission.

you have been making outragous demands for the last few days for reasons that boil down to "thats not how magic works in your mind"

excuse me if i remain unimpressed by your "point"
The point is, the Sorcerer has no reason to exist. Has no tradition. Has no identity. And does nothing except step on the toes of other classes that already exist before it.




and my point is, this isn't your game.

you are helping to create it (sadly) but the game and the intellectual property belongs to wizards of the coast. i'm pretty sure they are allowed to imagine their magic system however they want, and without your permission.

you have been making outragous demands for the last few days for reasons that boil down to "thats not how magic works in your mind"

excuse me if i remain unimpressed by your "point"

I know. It is Gary Gygaxs game. He already established Psionic as innate, whose source is the brain itself.