UR Control - Stuff - Snapcaster

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Conceptual list, haven't really gotten a chance to test:

Lands:
4 - Sulfur Falls
9 - Island
8 - Mountain
2 - Evolving Wilds
1 - Desolate Lighthouse
1 - Hellion Crucible
25 Lands

Creatures:
4 - Snapcaster Mage
2 - Augur of Bolas
4 - Neurok Commando
10 Creatures

Other Spells:
4 - Mana Leak
4 - Ponder
3 - Arc Trail
3 - Flames of the Firebrand
2 - Pillar of Flame
2 - Galvanic Blast
2 - Dismember or Vapor Snag
1 - Chandra the Firebrand
2 - Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 - Devil's Play
1 - Batterskull
25 Other Spells

Sideboard:
1 - Jace, Memory Adept
3 - Phantasmal Image
2 - Dissipate
2 - Negate
2 - Smelt
1 - Pillar of Flame
2 - Slagstorm or Whipflare
2 - Surgical Extraction
15 Cards in Sideboard


This list was heavily based on some list from MTGO (don't remember the name to properly credit), but i saw it in the recent video from evan on SCG's magic show.  i wanted to make a few updates as i thought the list was interesting and had potential, but lacked in a lot of ways.

it also got me to thinking.... is neurok commando something that can make it?  i mean, if geist sees play, and this card is sort of like it, but trades speed and damage for more CA. 

anyways, let me know what you think.  many of you know that i love, love, love blue/red decks and always try to make them work when i can.  of course, UR should be a thing with ravnica (or maybe something UWR or whatever).

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I think you would be fine by cutting a land for another spell..maybe a pike? Or the 4th Arc Trail

And I would definitely keep Dismember in the main, as you need a way to clear the board of Restoration Angels to let your Commando get through. Maybe take out the Galvaniv Blasts and play both Dismember and Snag?
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yea, i think i agree with cutting a land.  i was already leaning towards it.  the other idea was just to cut all countermagic for more card draw and burn, not sure.

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I kinda like the idea of cutting the Leaks in favor of 2 or 3 Dissipates. A Commando doesn't pressure the opponent like a Geist does, so your games will naturally go longer. I'm assuming you don't have them but going

-4 Leaks
-1 Land
+2/3 Dissipates
+2 Bonfires
+1 Draw Spell

Could work out pretty well.
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I'm sorry if this is a dumb question, because I'm fairly new to the game, but what's the plan with this deck?  You don't have any beaters, nor do you really have enough burn in there to reliably kill your opponent with instants/sorceries.  You also don't really have any way to recycle snapcaster.    I really don't see how this deck would finish off an opponent...It looks to focus on hand advantage, but I don't see how it uses this advantage.

I too love U/R combos, but I think there are better ways to do this.  Invisible Stalker + Curiosity is WAY better combo than Neurok commando and can really secure you card advantage.  You can use artifacts to beef him up too if needed.  Also, if you're going to be this heavy with instants and sorceries, there's no reason not to include Delver in the deck.  Delver -> Stalker is an amazing 1-2 punch.  Follow it up with Snapcaster, some burn spells and then a few ways to recycle snapcaster (Peel from Reality is awesome, or even just unsummon) and you can really make this a fairly consistant aggro/burn/control deck. 
Tempo sir, while giving yourself a steady flow of cards with Commando.

Stalker + Curiosity is better than a lone Commando, but neither of them do much on their own. To reliably run Stalker you have to run more equipment than normal, and in the end that just makes the deck worse as the equipment doesn't do much without creatures.
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I kinda like the idea of cutting the Leaks in favor of 2 or 3 Dissipates. A Commando doesn't pressure the opponent like a Geist does, so your games will naturally go longer. I'm assuming you don't have them but going -4 Leaks -1 Land +2/3 Dissipates +2 Bonfires +1 Draw Spell Could work out pretty well.



i have at this point basically an unlimited budget, and i have those cards.  heh, except i don't have geists since i really wasnt' a fan of delver, even if it was good.  i sold them and bought bonfires instead... which i then didn't care for that much either.

actually, for some reason, i didn't think i would like bonfires in the deck, but now that i think of it, they would be actually pretty good.

the more i look at the list, the more i feel i was forcing the mana leaks, but my small amount of running the list showed me they weren't that great.  yea, maybe a few dissipates would be better and then i can run some bonfires too.  i would like more card draw too, since i found i can't rely on commando.  commando is amazing if it gets going, but its a matter of getting to the point where it can start to take over the game.

with rotation, i can also go with scroll thiefs too     

Blue is the best color ever. How do you deal?  ------------------------------  Team GFG - "gulf, foxtrot, gulf" 

 

 

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By card draw do you mean Think Twice? Or thought scours and probes? I'm not sure how much I like the idea of TT in this build, but I think running a few probes would be fine.

And yea Raigeki* is a pretty good card when you're trying to drown them in CA with commando lol.

Scroll Thief could also work after rotation. It isn't as resilient to removal but is friendler with pikes than Commando is.

*Raigeki is a yugioh card that says "destroy all creatures your opponent controls." obviously that's in reference to bonfire
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Tempo sir, while giving yourself a steady flow of cards with Commando. Stalker + Curiosity is better than a lone Commando, but neither of them do much on their own. To reliably run Stalker you have to run more equipment than normal, and in the end that just makes the deck worse as the equipment doesn't do much without creatures.



Okay thanks.  How do you keep Commando alive though?  At 2/1 it's just going to die quickly won't it?  The hexproof/shroud AND the unblockable are equally necessary no? 
Tempo sir, while giving yourself a steady flow of cards with Commando. Stalker + Curiosity is better than a lone Commando, but neither of them do much on their own. To reliably run Stalker you have to run more equipment than normal, and in the end that just makes the deck worse as the equipment doesn't do much without creatures.



Okay thanks.  How do you keep Commando alive though?  At 2/1 it's just going to die quickly won't it?  The hexproof/shroud AND the unblockable are equally necessary no? 



the idea is that i run a bunch of arc trails, flames, and other effecient, card advantage removal that clears the way to let commando get through to draw into more of that stuff.  snap, of course, rebuys it.  so the deck would run kinda slow because i'm attacking with only 1 and 2 power guys, but the PWs, batterskull, and devil's play all help end the game quicker in the later stages.  against some decks, i can board in more removal and jace, board about commandos and then just be a board control deck that wins with a PW or a devil's play and burn.

worse comes to worse, i can also go with a modified version of the deck that looks more like the deck i was originally inspired by, i just really liked the idea of commando in the deck to fuel the onslaught since i was intending to keep a constant clear board.

tamiyo is a card i love more and more the more i play with it.  kinda hard to lose when it goes ultimate, and it isn't that hard to pull off.   

Blue is the best color ever. How do you deal?  ------------------------------  Team GFG - "gulf, foxtrot, gulf" 

 

 

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I really don't think that neurok commando can cut it in this meta. There are just too many creatures that can block it and kill it (including a few with flash that can easily get past sorcery mana burn). Add in the fact that bonfire of the damned so easily kills it, means you have a creature that won't be giving you much value.

I would go with dismember over vapor snag. Your deck isn't very fast so you can easily end up facing down a big creature where dismember will come in handy.

The last question is can this deck win you games? You still have to do at least 20 damage to win a game. Your creatures lack the punch of those seen in a delver deck meaning you'll need to rely on burn to win games. Your burns have a max damage to a player of 23 (Arc Trails, Flames, Pillars, and Blasts all aimed at your opponent). Add in snapcaster flashing back burn spells and you can do a max damage of 12. Your other sources of damage are 1 devil's play, creatures with 1 or 2 power and no evasion, Chandra, Batterskull, and Hellion Crucible. It seems like it would be very, very difficult to get that 20 damage in. Even harder if your opponent plays thragtusk, wurmcoil, trading post, other forms of lifegain.

"This list much made Niche barf a lil' in his mouth, so I can be proud of that." -rstnme

the original list was running a staff of nim, which i like, even for this deck.  perhaps i drop the neurok commandos and just go for more of a UR control deck.  i can probably keep the augurs since they are good at defense and can provide CA.  i'd probably audible into whipflares and/or slagstorms as well over some combination of arc trails and flames and then i'd probably drop galvanic blast.  i probably want the mana leaks still and then i'll need to add some card draw.  the rest of the list is pretty good.

oh, and don't forget that if i can ulimate tamiyo, any burn spell i draw becomes a win con.  i'll be reworking the list this afternoon (since i'm at work and its a pretty slow day so far) 

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Looking forward to seeing what you come up with. I haven't thought of a good reason (other than better mana) to go straight UR over Grixis right now. If you're interested in a URW base control deck (splashing black and green) check out my 5cc deck on the 2nd page
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The big question is how this deck deals with thragtusk :/

Naya in general seems like your worst nightmare.

The last question is can this deck win you games? You still have to do at least 20 damage to win a game. Your creatures lack the punch of those seen in a delver deck meaning you'll need to rely on burn to win games. Your burns have a max damage to a player of 23 (Arc Trails, Flames, Pillars, and Blasts all aimed at your opponent). Add in snapcaster flashing back burn spells and you can do a max damage of 12. Your other sources of damage are 1 devil's play, creatures with 1 or 2 power and no evasion, Chandra, Batterskull, and Hellion Crucible. It seems like it would be very, very difficult to get that 20 damage in. Even harder if your opponent plays thragtusk, wurmcoil, trading post, other forms of lifegain.



This is kind of what I was asking at the start of the thread.  It just doesn't seem like it's going to happen.  Either bigger creatures are needed or bigger burns (maybe Thunderous Wrath or Bonfire or something). 
phantasmal image is a good answer to thragtusk or any legend.

grixis is still on the table i guess too, only since it has very little opportunity cost in building.  i get terrors, but that's about all i would want from black.  actually, i could use stensia bloodhall to go along with my slow ping you to death plan. 

Blue is the best color ever. How do you deal?  ------------------------------  Team GFG - "gulf, foxtrot, gulf" 

 

 

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one deck i did build a while ago, but shelved for reasons i can't even remember was a UWR control deck that basically was just best of the best removal and planeswakers and staff of nim.  it ran pretty well, it just would beat everyone going late.

i don't remember the exact list, but the lands were pretty standard, running a few lighthouses which are just great.  PWs were tamiyo, gideon, and i think a karn.  2 staffs.  i might have thrown in a white and blue sun's zeniths too.  no snapcasters since it wasn't relevant enough.  3 each of DOJs and whipflares.  a few pillar of flames.  i think dismember, oblivion rings.  mana leaks.  and then i think i had ponders and think twices, since think twice fits the curve just too well not to run. i think then i had 3 pristine talismans.  i can't remember if i had solemns or not, but i think i did not, since i liked them better in a build with 6 drops, which this wasn't.  sorry i don't have a good looking decklist, but this is from memory on my MODO account for a deck i built at least a few weeks/month ago.  again, it was definitely a pretty solid list.  if any of you are aware of my UW control list i posted like a week ago, it looked a played a lot like that, but had staff of nim thrown in along with some red removal.

if anyone is really interested, i can find the list later today and post it, but i'm hoping what i listed above gives a fair idea of what the list was.   

Blue is the best color ever. How do you deal?  ------------------------------  Team GFG - "gulf, foxtrot, gulf" 

 

 

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That actually sounds a lot like my 5cc list, except I have dissipates instead of leaks and no staffs.

Same Planeswalker suite, 9 wrath effects. Think twice and Alchamey and 2 WSZ.

I think the wolf run match up would be the hardest, but it sounds like a ton of fun.
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i'll have to pop over and take a look.  just based on what you said, as much as mana leak is sadly not as good as it has been, especially for control decks, you can't discount that it is a good tempo play against many decks and is good against unknown or other random things.  dissipates are fine, and i usually play at least a couple of those and/or negates in my boards for the obvious matchups, but coutnerspells aren't really where i want to be later in the game.  turn 2 mana leaks are usually still fine, even against cavern decks since there is a reasonable chance these don't have the cavern yet.  and if they know you have the mana leaks, there are a lot of players who still try and play around it, which of course simply buys you time.  you getting all the time you can is great.

i could see the deck going into a 4th color for black for the alchemy, much like my esper list is basically just my UW control deck with a few terrors, flashback on souls and alchemy.  i don't like playing too many colors since the mana will be worse and i lose the chance to play ability lands (like lighthouse or ghost quarter).

also, alchemy can easily be a number of other card drawing spells.  between ponder, think twice, divination, desperate ravings, or whatever, the alchemies aren't worth the forced color, however small the land count could be (plus, you're probably forced to play shimmering grotto.... yuck).   

Blue is the best color ever. How do you deal?  ------------------------------  Team GFG - "gulf, foxtrot, gulf" 

 

 

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Just one Grotto, I've had good experiences with it so I'm not sad about playing it in the main.

Lingering Souls was in the initial build but running it and 4 whipflares along with 3 days, I don't know sounded like it could be a little bit awkward at times.

Green is just for ancient grudge FB and black is for Alchamey FB.
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I like Neurok Commando, but not in this meta.  Delver has the evasion you need.  Have you tinkered with the 4/4 hexproof loner guy from AVR?  I know you've looked at him for your U/W, and wondered if you'd tested him here.  He fights with the 5 slot though (which is my biggest complaint right now with control; all the good stuff is 5+ mana - Tamiyo, Curse of Death's hold, Gideon, that 4/4 dude, non-miracle's terminus, etc).

Have you tested Encrust?  It seems pretty efficient for tapping stuff down, basically all the stuff your burn can't touch or don't want to kill, like undying critters, or troubling artifacts like Post.  In a way, it's kind of like Narcolepsy; and I remember you were a fan of it when ZEN block was in.

Claustrophobia would be better in that regard.
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I was also going to mention Lone Revenant.  The card is capitally gross.  He's more expensive than Commando obviously, but he seems more in line with what you need.  Commando needs a lot of coddling to get through much of anything, where given a reasonable quantity of burn and some sweepers, you could pretty easily take control of the board enough for Revenant to pay absolutely bonkers dividends. 

catowner wrote:
Welcome to 2012. Blue has the most efficient creatures, black has the all-in monocolored aggro deck, the most controlling deck in the format is green-red, control decks lose to aggro in attrition wars, and counterspells aren't an answer to fatties.
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If you went with Scroll Thief and Augur, you could play Whipflare. You'd probably still want to play a couple Snapcaster as well. Vapor Snags and Dismembers for the fatties. Images and perhaps even Master of the Pearl Trident or Grand Architect (I know it sounds extremely janky, but it might be what you're looking for) to give you a clock. And then burn.

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Use faith in the absence of science, not in its stead.

If you want a Lord Effect then Adoptive Automonation would be better as he has no use for the artifact bonus Architect grants and AA is easier on the mana.

But neither sounds that exciting
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Claustrophobia would be better in that regard.



Yeah, you're probably right. 
i'm not turning this into a merfok deck.  i will not play more than like 10 creatures.  and GA is better than automaton any day, plus GA lives thru whipflare

 

Blue is the best color ever. How do you deal?  ------------------------------  Team GFG - "gulf, foxtrot, gulf" 

 

 

I produce Dubstep and House beats:

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i'm not turning this into a merfok deck.  i will not play more than like 10 creatures.  and GA is better than automaton any day, plus GA lives thru whipflare

 



lol. Fair enough, but I do think that Thief should be the pick over Commando in a deck like this one. I would be interested in seeing where Commando and Thief would get you in the same deck. Blue has a good amount of tempo cards now, in Snag, Feeling of Dread, Downpour, and Sleep. But then again, if you're taking advantage of those cards to their fullest, you'd should just be smashing in with Geist and the like, rather than trying to build CA. 

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i'm not turning this into a merfok deck.  i will not play more than like 10 creatures.  and GA is better than automaton any day, plus GA lives thru whipflare

 



uhh, automation lives through whipflare too...


2:25 PM sneakattackkid: my basics are worth more... 5:21 PM Nighthavk_: I was splitting more 8-4s than a hooker splits her legs. 11:42 PM Nighthavk_: because honestly, your opponent may be caw, but he'll probably be a drooling idiot who just found out porn exists.
i'm not turning this into a merfok deck.  i will not play more than like 10 creatures.  and GA is better than automaton any day, plus GA lives thru whipflare

 



uhh, automation lives through whipflare too...





derp

/stupid

Blue is the best color ever. How do you deal?  ------------------------------  Team GFG - "gulf, foxtrot, gulf" 

 

 

I produce Dubstep and House beats:

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Best Pauper Deck in the format, not close:

http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2974646#comment-49713276

 

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