Making sorcerers awesome

So I was discussing my disappointment of the playtest sorcerer, when my friend threw out an idea that was so awesome I had to share. A sorcerer (I REALLY like the proposal to rename the class scion) has a heritage of some unnatural origin that is the source of their magic. What if they start the day with X features, but lose those features as they cast spells? For example:

Let's say a dragon sorcerer begins the day with X points worth of heritage features, based on level. At level 1, they might get 2 minor features, such as a boost to AC (scales), and a minor aura that gives a bonus to interactions (I would prefer a pick from a list option here). During the course of the day, they can expend these heritage points to cast spells, but the act of casting them temporarily drains a portion of that heritage away. Casting a burning hands may cost 1 heritage point, but then their scales flake off as their body reaches equilibrium again. A short rest restores the heritage point, and the scales remanifest. Alternately (and both could be an option), you expend the heritage point to cast an enhanced burning hands, but the point only returns after an extended rest.

This concept allows a sorcerer to lose features as they use their heritage to fuel their magic. It flows in a more intelligent direction. As the sorcerer levels, they gain access to more and better heritage options, as well as more powerful spells. They can keep the heritage bonuses by not casting spells, or expend them for a short or extended rest to get some nova effect. Admittedly, it will take some effort to balance this concept, but overall I like it.

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For something like that I would probably say houserule your own.

I was very happy with the concept of the sorcerer in the packet with my only issues lying with the spell list. And looking at what you said "flowing in a more intelligent direction" that is entirely dependant on how you look at the class as a whole. I see it as far more logical to have some power in your heritage that is too powerful if left unchecked, so as you drain power you lose the natural ability to contain it and the manifistations start to appear. 

However, I do see merit in a character that starts powerful and degrades. The obvious flaw being the players who see the starting stats before casting of such a character and crying OP without checking how the character unfolds. 
Nah. I actually really like the sorcerer presented. Your way just feels like you get less awesome instead of more, and why would anyone want that?

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Although both ideas are intelligent, I prefer balloon blow up over balloon let go.  But maybe through some playtesting it would be good.

Speaking of making sorcerers awesome, any ideas to make the sorcerer more potent from their sorcerous powers? I think they should be offered every level instead of 1st and 4th.

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

Nah. I actually really like the sorcerer presented. Your way just feels like you get less awesome instead of more, and why would anyone want that?

They don't get "less awesome", they cash in some of their inherent power for a nova effect. Drain their reserves for a short (or extended) time. I'm essentially proposing an AEDU-styled sorcerer, with a touch of 4e psion. With any hope of balance, the inherent class features + encounter/daily spells should come out to be roughly the same power as a wizard going full vancian.

Magic Dual Color Test
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Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
My biggest thoughts regarding the sorceror's flavor-to-mechanic device is that the flavor is this whole like loosing control over their inner power (loss of willpower), so I think it would be very interesting if their powers started going haywire or something when they got out of willpower. Less "I now have a bunch of interesting buffs" and more "omg my major isn't acting normal."
On possible way of doing this is allowing a sorceror to cast limited spells when out of willpower, but with some random side-effect or mis-cast when they do. Or perhaps losing the last of their willpower causes strange effects right there. Maybe the act of spending willpower has a random side-effect, or simply adds something more random and uncontrolled to their at-wills, so when out of willpower they can choose to clamp down on their magic and not use it (yay melee/ranged basic attack) or to continue using it but at a risk.
My biggest thoughts regarding the sorceror's flavor-to-mechanic device is that the flavor is this whole like loosing control over their inner power (loss of willpower), so I think it would be very interesting if their powers started going haywire or something when they got out of willpower. Less "I now have a bunch of interesting buffs" and more "omg my major isn't acting normal."
On possible way of doing this is allowing a sorceror to cast limited spells when out of willpower, but with some random side-effect or mis-cast when they do. Or perhaps losing the last of their willpower causes strange effects right there. Maybe the act of spending willpower has a random side-effect, or simply adds something more random and uncontrolled to their at-wills, so when out of willpower they can choose to clamp down on their magic and not use it (yay melee/ranged basic attack) or to continue using it but at a risk.



Kind of like that I really like the Dragon Sorceror but building off of its flavor is definitely something I approve of.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
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Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I like that Mithrus...and it would probably better fit their original Sorcerer idea than the one they have now.

That would make for another alternative spellcasting system.
I think with the Sorcerer as it is, their spells should be based on their Bloodline. They shouldn't get access to all the spells a Wizard gets...

~ an Air Elemental Blooded Sorcerer should have Air/Lightning/some Travel related spells like Flying and Gaseous Form while a Giant Blooded Sorcerer should get physical buff spells, Giant Growth and extra damage Powers while a Celestial Blooded Sorcerer should get some Divine spells (Including a Cure Wounds spell) and Holy Powers and that would definitely get rid of the whole notion of we need Clerics to heal.

I think the core Bloodlines should be:
~Draconic Bloodline modified by dragon type (Red has fire while Blue has lightning).
~ Pure Elemental (Air, Earth, Fire, and Water)
~ Celestial
~ Infernal
~ Giant
~ Fey

I think those in the Core game would be more than enough.
One of the things I really like about the sorcerer as presented is that, even though he's losing willpower to fuel his spells, he's getting other ways to keep fighting.  By level 5, that's really just some elemental DR and bonus damage, but it serves a purpose:

It makes the sorcerer player want to keep going rather than to stop and rest.  It helps alleviate the five-minute work day.  I like that.  I like it a lot.  And I'd really like to see how it works over 10-20 levels. 
One of the things I really like about the sorcerer as presented is that, even though he's losing willpower to fuel his spells, he's getting other ways to keep fighting.  By level 5, that's really just some elemental DR and bonus damage, but it serves a purpose:

It makes the sorcerer player want to keep going rather than to stop and rest.  It helps alleviate the five-minute work day.  I like that.  I like it a lot.  And I'd really like to see how it works over 10-20 levels. 


Funny that, we have a full spellcaster that has some incentive to not 5MWD it up.  And people said it couldn't be done.
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The Sorcerer as it is now is woefully underpowered. Their mechanics suck. They are literally at the bottom of the pile for DPR and that's about all they can do anyway...

The changes I would make would be:

Level  Magic  Weapon  Spell                  Will   Spells    Max Spell
         Attack  Attack     DC                  Power Known     Level
1          +3       +2       11 + Cha mod     2        2            1
2          +3       +2       11 + Cha mod     3        3            1
3          +3       +2       11 + Cha mod     7        5            2
4          +4       +3       12 + Cha mod     9        6            2
5          +4       +3       12 + Cha mod    15       8            3

This would allow the Sorcerer to cast:
Level    spell Levels
            1st   2nd   3rd
1st       2
2nd      3
3rd       3       2
4th       3       3
5th       3       3       2

They would learn the spells at the same level as the Wizard, but have fewer spells:
Level spells known
         1st   2nd   3rd
1st      2
2nd     3
3rd     3      2
4th      3     3
5th      3     3      2

Of course they can cast any combination and learn any combination, but the max they could learn at the highest level would be about half of what the Wizard would know.

I'd change "Dragon Strength" to "Dragon Accuracy" and make it give a +2 bonus to attack.

This way while the Sorcerer has willpower left they are almost on par with a Wizard, but when they run out they are almost on par with a fighter. This would make their DPR somewhere between the Wizard and the Warlock.

That's what I would do to fix the Sorcerer...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
One of the things I really like about the sorcerer as presented is that, even though he's losing willpower to fuel his spells, he's getting other ways to keep fighting.  By level 5, that's really just some elemental DR and bonus damage, but it serves a purpose:

It makes the sorcerer player want to keep going rather than to stop and rest.  It helps alleviate the five-minute work day.  I like that.  I like it a lot.  And I'd really like to see how it works over 10-20 levels. 



The problem is that the Sorcerer sucks compared to every other class and they are built to be a damage dealing class. I've ran the numbers in the play test packe forum in the "comparing the Fighter, Wizard, Warlock, and Sorcerer" thread. They just plain suck at their job...

The only reason to take a Sorcerer at this point is for role playing reasons...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
The problem is that the Sorcerer sucks compared to every other class and they are built to be a damage dealing class. I've ran the numbers in the play test packe forum in the "comparing the Fighter, Wizard, Warlock, and Sorcerer" thread. They just plain suck at their job...

The only reason to take a Sorcerer at this point is for role playing reasons...


Or ... you know ... to test it and provide feedback on that very thing.

The problem is that the Sorcerer sucks compared to every other class and they are built to be a damage dealing class. I've ran the numbers in the play test packe forum in the "comparing the Fighter, Wizard, Warlock, and Sorcerer" thread. They just plain suck at their job...

The only reason to take a Sorcerer at this point is for role playing reasons...


Or ... you know ... to test it and provide feedback on that very thing.




Yes and the feedback is "it sucks". If you want specifics: Its half as good as a fighter, and half as good as a Wizard, but counted together its still half as good as either. You'd be better off just having another Wizard or Fighter at this point rather than a Sorcerer...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
The biggest problem I have with the sorcerer is that it's always been done as a bloodline thing.  To me that's always belonged in the racial category.  If they changed the fluff to be binding another soul or something It would fit better.  That does start stepping on the toes of the warlock though.

Sorcerer class could just as easily be elf class or any other magically inclined race.
I like most of the Sorcerer as is - with the exception that I am withholding judgement on the spell points.  Right now, I think I'm heavily biased against the spell points by the simple fact that the last 'fix' to Burning Hands makes it too powerful.  IF Burning hands were re-fixed (either reduce the damage or reduce the Area of Effect to three adjacent squares), I think I'd be happy with the class.

But the ultimate test is in the play.


One of my players is rebuilding his wizard into a Sorcerer so I should know better soon.


Carl   
 
Funny that, we have a full spellcaster that has some incentive to not 5MWD it up.  And people said it couldn't be done.



The example is a Gish not quite a full caster (but the feature of gaining abilities as your casting pushes on remains so even that might not be important) 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

 
Funny that, we have a full spellcaster that has some incentive to not 5MWD it up.  And people said it couldn't be done.



The example is a Gish not quite a full caster (but the feature of gaining abilities as your casting pushes on remains so even that might not be important) 



The problem is they deal half the DPR of the Wizard or Fighter and their only options are damage like spells and a few defensive ones. In other words a really crappy striker.

The developers forgot that the Sorcerer has to pick if they weapon attack or spell attack each round which means they get half the damage of either class. They either have to split their primary between strength and charisma or suck at one or the other...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
 
Funny that, we have a full spellcaster that has some incentive to not 5MWD it up.  And people said it couldn't be done.



The example is a Gish not quite a full caster (but the feature of gaining abilities as your casting pushes on remains so even that might not be important) 



The problem is they deal half the DPR of the Wizard or Fighter and their only options are damage like spells and a few defensive ones. In other words a really crappy striker.

The developers forgot that the Sorcerer has to pick if they weapon attack or spell attack each round which means they get half the damage of either class. They either have to split their primary between strength and charisma or suck at one or the other...



Really no point in bothering with Strength you can't use any weapon that deals more damage than shocking grasp anyway may as well just go Shocking grasp and shield so figuring a 16 in main stat you have 1d8+7 11.5 average with a higher AC and the enemy can't take reactions vs if they were proficient with GS 1d12+5  11.5 average so ya not really feeling the melee of this melee gish.
 
Funny that, we have a full spellcaster that has some incentive to not 5MWD it up.  And people said it couldn't be done.



The example is a Gish not quite a full caster (but the feature of gaining abilities as your casting pushes on remains so even that might not be important) 



The problem is they deal half the DPR of the Wizard or Fighter and their only options are damage like spells and a few defensive ones. In other words a really crappy striker.

The developers forgot that the Sorcerer has to pick if they weapon attack or spell attack each round which means they get half the damage of either class. They either have to split their primary between strength and charisma or suck at one or the other...


At what round are you calculating the melee bonusswill kick in..  (second round by level 4?) 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

 
Funny that, we have a full spellcaster that has some incentive to not 5MWD it up.  And people said it couldn't be done.



The example is a Gish not quite a full caster (but the feature of gaining abilities as your casting pushes on remains so even that might not be important) 



The problem is they deal half the DPR of the Wizard or Fighter and their only options are damage like spells and a few defensive ones. In other words a really crappy striker.

The developers forgot that the Sorcerer has to pick if they weapon attack or spell attack each round which means they get half the damage of either class. They either have to split their primary between strength and charisma or suck at one or the other...


At what round are you calculating the melee bonusswill kick in..  (second round by level 4?) 



It doesn't matter, its a +2 damage bonus on a crappy weapon which just barely breaks even with a slightly better weapon, the fighter gets CS dice and the Wizard gets a better spell DC and more spells and the ability to swap spells out. Overall this is a sucky class...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
The damage bonus could have been adjusted to be d6*[max spell level] or similar, at least then it scales (no pun intended) a bit better.

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Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
The bonuses gained from spending willpower could have been made into passive abilities without any meaningful change to the power of the sorcerer. They really do very little when you get right down to it.

That being said, I would have preferred if willpower required a short rest to recover. This would help differentiate the sorcerer and wizard even more. Willpower could equal character level and fully recover after a short rest. Total spells per day increase slightly but burst/nova potential drops. This would help eliminate 5 minute work day issues which sorcerers seem to suffer from far worse than wizards.
The bonuses gained from spending willpower could have been made into passive abilities without any meaningful change to the power of the sorcerer. They really do very little when you get right down to it. That being said, I would have preferred if willpower required a short rest to recover. This would help differentiate the sorcerer and wizard even more. Willpower could equal character level and fully recover after a short rest. Total spells per day increase slightly but burst/nova potential drops. This would help eliminate 5 minute work day issues which sorcerers seem to suffer from far worse than wizards.



And that is actually something I was considering cooking up. Since will being short term fatigued sounds cool... perhaps if you run out of will points you can still cast more tapping in to everybodies extended resource hp.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

The damage bonus could have been adjusted to be d6*[max spell level] or similar, at least then it scales (no pun intended) a bit better.



I wonder if Lokiare or somebody could cook the numbers for that
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

The damage bonus could have been adjusted to be d6*[max spell level] or similar, at least then it scales (no pun intended) a bit better.



I wonder if Lokiare or somebody could cook the numbers for that



It would be about equal to the fighter since the fighter gets 1d6 at first and 2d8 at 5th. Then what does the fighter have that no one else has?

Really the better way is to flip over to a +2 to attack rolls...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
It would be about equal to the fighter since the fighter gets 1d6 at first and 2d8 at 5th. Then what does the fighter have that no one else has?

Really the better way is to flip over to a +2 to attack rolls...

Not even close to CS, since they essentially get only one option: Deadly Strike. The "magic" of CS, IMO, is in all the other stuff you can do with it.

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
 
Funny that, we have a full spellcaster that has some incentive to not 5MWD it up.  And people said it couldn't be done.



The example is a Gish not quite a full caster (but the feature of gaining abilities as your casting pushes on remains so even that might not be important) 


This one heritage is a Gish.  They won't all be.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
It would be about equal to the fighter since the fighter gets 1d6 at first and 2d8 at 5th. Then what does the fighter have that no one else has?

Really the better way is to flip over to a +2 to attack rolls...

Not even close to CS, since they essentially get only one option: Deadly Strike. The "magic" of CS, IMO, is in all the other stuff you can do with it.




So the fighter gets a tiny bit of versatility opposed to the major versatility the Warlock gets by having a large number of spells...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
So the fighter gets a tiny bit of versatility opposed to the major versatility the Warlock gets by having a large number of spells...

Fair enough. I fully expect the CS to get a bit of a buff come the next update.

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
um, guys, where is the numbers that say "sorcerer does half the melee damage of a fighter, and half the magic damage of a wizard"? i built a sorcerer with the playtest and before he casts any spells he gets:
attack:d20+5 Damage: d10+2 (bastard sword)
the prebuilt fighter has:
attack:d20+6 Damage: d10+3 (battleaxe)
asuming he uses his CS, that's still only an extra d6 of damage. how does 2d10+4=1d10+1d6+3?
and on Ray of Frost my sorcerer gets:
attack:d20+6 Damage: d6+3
the prebuilt wizard doesn't have Ray of Frost, but if he had that instead of magic missile he'd have:
attack:d20+6 Damage: d6+3
so in this case the sorcerer is on par with the wizard's damage dealing capabilities.

mind you, all the attacks i've mentioned require the character's only action that round, so calculating DPR is nitpicking what is already clear: the sorcerer is comparable to each of them, and even though he falls behind the fighter a little, it's not a lost cause, and he GETS BETTER as the day goes on. 

from an RP standpoint i absolutely love the new sorcerer, and from a Mechanics standpoint he is comparable in everything he does. also i like the idea that as the day goes on his strength slowly transfers from the magic power to melee power, allowing the shift in control to be more evident. i mean, it's one thing to say "i'm now becoming more arogant and dragonlike" and another for the character's fighting style to visibly change as the day goes on. 
um, guys, where is the numbers that say "sorcerer does half the melee damage of a fighter, and half the magic damage of a wizard"? i built a sorcerer with the playtest and before he casts any spells he gets:
attack:d20+5 Damage: d10+2 (bastard sword)
the prebuilt fighter has:
attack:d20+6 Damage: d10+3 (battleaxe)
asuming he uses his CS, that's still only an extra d6 of damage. how does 2d10+4=1d10+1d6+3?
and on Ray of Frost my sorcerer gets:
attack:d20+6 Damage: d6+3
the prebuilt wizard doesn't have Ray of Frost, but if he had that instead of magic missile he'd have:
attack:d20+6 Damage: d6+3
so in this case the sorcerer is on par with the wizard's damage dealing capabilities.

mind you, all the attacks i've mentioned require the character's only action that round, so calculating DPR is nitpicking what is already clear: the sorcerer is comparable to each of them, and even though he falls behind the fighter a little, it's not a lost cause, and he GETS BETTER as the day goes on. 

from an RP standpoint i absolutely love the new sorcerer, and from a Mechanics standpoint he is comparable in everything he does. also i like the idea that as the day goes on his strength slowly transfers from the magic power to melee power, allowing the shift in control to be more evident. i mean, it's one thing to say "i'm now becoming more arogant and dragonlike" and another for the character's fighting style to visibly change as the day goes on. 



Heres the thing the only thing a weapon gives you is +1 to hit don't get me wrong that's a big deal but it's just not worth splitting your stats for. Even when you get your +2 damage it's a trap making the entire dragon origin basically a heavy armored tougher weaker wizard.  shocking grasp does the same average damage as a greatsword which your not actually proficient in even after the +2 for claws while taking away reactions and giving you a better AC.  Draconic Strength actually takes willpower to do less damage. The whole class looks interesting I love the Idea but the design is flawed  We Have trap melee and trap powers along with weaker spell casting I'm trying to figure out what you could do to make the melee Dragon sorc viable but you have to be cautious of stepping on the fighters toes. Honestly +2 to hit would put him above fighter attack bonus at first level and a d6 to damage has him dealing the same damage. one thing that could help is going back to 1.5x str damage on 2 handers but then you have to revisit 2 weapon fighting, and shields

I'm on the side that says the current Sorc is really weak. The class features are pretty cool, but what I'm seeing is that once the party hits about 7-9th level, the Sorcerer's going to fall off as useless. He has no increase in either is Attack bonuses OR his spell save DCs, whereas the Fighter and Wizard have massive ones. His spellcasting is all about battle spells, but with no save DCs for his AoE spells, and no Magic Attack Bonus for his rays and touch spells, his main casting focus doesn't work.
Very cool but seems the numbers arent quite there ... man thats a bit annoying.   I do also want BIG Blades....  
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I'm not saying you're wrong.  But, I am curious why I'm hearing this about the sorcerer, but not the cleric, who has the exact same attack bonus and saving throw progression as the sorcerer.  Hell, the Sorcerer is actually better off, because the dragon heritage gives him a +1 to attack rolls with weapons.

So, is the war cleric weak as well?

I think it's too early to say that the sorcerer's attack bonus or save DC never goes up.  Bounded Accuracy means that the curve is a lot flatter than it was in 3E, and five levels may not be enough to see that rise.

I do think that accuracy needs to be more flat across the board.  There's really no reason for the Fighter to have that much of an accuracy bonus over the sorcerer when the Fighter's going to be able to do higher damage or add some sort of effect on every attack.  This is one of the reasons I hated the BAB in 3E.

The Save DC difference between the Sorcerer and Wizard seems problematic, too, at this phase.  But, it could be that the wizard will have more baseline attack bonuses and save DCs, while the tradition modifies those.  I could also see the Sorcerer having a sharper curve after level 5, as the character becomes more and more comfortable with the innate use of magic.  Practice makes perfect, and all that.

I'm honestly not bothered by discrepancies that may or may not exist above level 5 right now.  That's not part of the test.  I'll wait for the phase where we get levels 6-10, and then I'll start worrying about that.  I do believe that the developers need to be made aware that the possibility for problems exists, of course, but I don't think an entire class needs to be written off (as some are doing) because its first iteration in the playtest wasn't balanced well.
I see a mixed blaster striker with.. not quite enough to do either ok. Its still my favorite, with fighter coming in second... ofcourse and this is early so hell no would I "write it off" and it will be the one I am building for our slow to begin play test ;p

A Cleric is a different  role I suppose and isnt being viewed the same.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

um, guys, where is the numbers that say "sorcerer does half the melee damage of a fighter, and half the magic damage of a wizard"? i built a sorcerer with the playtest and before he casts any spells he gets:
attack:d20+5 Damage: d10+2 (bastard sword)
the prebuilt fighter has:
attack:d20+6 Damage: d10+3 (battleaxe)
asuming he uses his CS, that's still only an extra d6 of damage. how does 2d10+4=1d10+1d6+3?
and on Ray of Frost my sorcerer gets:
attack:d20+6 Damage: d6+3
the prebuilt wizard doesn't have Ray of Frost, but if he had that instead of magic missile he'd have:
attack:d20+6 Damage: d6+3
so in this case the sorcerer is on par with the wizard's damage dealing capabilities.

mind you, all the attacks i've mentioned require the character's only action that round, so calculating DPR is nitpicking what is already clear: the sorcerer is comparable to each of them, and even though he falls behind the fighter a little, it's not a lost cause, and he GETS BETTER as the day goes on. 

from an RP standpoint i absolutely love the new sorcerer, and from a Mechanics standpoint he is comparable in everything he does. also i like the idea that as the day goes on his strength slowly transfers from the magic power to melee power, allowing the shift in control to be more evident. i mean, it's one thing to say "i'm now becoming more arogant and dragonlike" and another for the character's fighting style to visibly change as the day goes on. 



Heres the thing the only thing a weapon gives you is +1 to hit don't get me wrong that's a big deal but it's just not worth splitting your stats for. Even when you get your +2 damage it's a trap making the entire dragon origin basically a heavy armored tougher weaker wizard.  shocking grasp does the same average damage as a greatsword which your not actually proficient in even after the +2 for claws while taking away reactions and giving you a better AC.  Draconic Strength actually takes willpower to do less damage. The whole class looks interesting I love the Idea but the design is flawed  We Have trap melee and trap powers along with weaker spell casting I'm trying to figure out what you could do to make the melee Dragon sorc viable but you have to be cautious of stepping on the fighters toes. Honestly +2 to hit would put him above fighter attack bonus at first level and a d6 to damage has him dealing the same damage. one thing that could help is going back to 1.5x str damage on 2 handers but then you have to revisit 2 weapon fighting, and shields



hmm...i think i see what you mean. if i built this guy so he was almost ok at two skills, then it would prabably look better if he were instead focused into being spectacular at just one. and even with my split skills i am comparable to the fighter, and he doesn't have the options i do, so the guy playing the fighter is going to be giving me dirty looks. on top of all this, i'm no min/maxer, so imagine what a true optimizer could do with it...

but IMO the flaws you've pointed out counteract each other: i'm stepping on the fighter's toes because i can do his job plus other stuff, but at the same time i'm not as good as i could be if i didn't try to do two things at once. in short, i've traded a high return from resources for having options. i'm willing to make that trade, and look foreward to playtesting it to see if they have made the tradeoff balanced enough.
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