Why this format sucks

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I will explain to all of you why Vintage is a bad format and why the other formats outthere are all better.

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  • A lot of the core cards are very costly. If you are not able to spare a total of the Large Sum of $7000 on the Power 9 and Mana Crypt and Library of Alexandria and the Original Duals and Mishra's Workshops and Tolarian Academies and Mana Drain then you will be struggling to make a Viable Vintage Deck.

  • A lot of over powerful Cards are restricted. Seriously I do not get why this decision was made. It just creates a lot of extra luck when 12 of the Best Cards are inconsistently drawn and putts Vintage on the top of the luck matters spectrum.

  • Old-uns are legal. This creatures weird games. Even though they do not see play, expansion matters cards are just silly.

  • Many decks win on turn 2-3 Consistently. This means that in 75% of cases the dice roll is what decides who wins where it is about 30% in nearby legacy and just a meager 5% in Standard and Extended with 10% in Modern.

Mafia Game Slots:

1. Open

2. Hundred Acres (Dead Town)

3. Open

4. Open

5. Open

6. Open

Do you play Vintage Zokorad?

Can you honestly tell me that it does not make sense that black lotus was restricted, along side ancestral recall?  Could you imagine 4 of each in a vintage deck? I think it stands to reason why those cards were restricted a long time ago and it has not made sense to un-restrict them since.

Prohibitive cost is about the only argument you have going for you here.

Just playing devil's advocate here.

Cheers,

Malph
Do you play Vintage Zokorad?

Can you honestly tell me that it does not make sense that black lotus was restricted, along side ancestral recall?  Could you imagine 4 of each in a vintage deck? I think it stands to reason why those cards were restricted a long time ago and it has not made sense to un-restrict them since.

Prohibitive cost is about the only argument you have going for you here.

Just playing devil's advocate here.

Cheers,

Malph



I makes things more luck based.

Mafia Game Slots:

1. Open

2. Hundred Acres (Dead Town)

3. Open

4. Open

5. Open

6. Open

In an environment where everyone had access to the same cards, luck is equal on most levels and deck construction isn't straight forward.  In a perfect world, of course.

I'm sure the vets around here could give you a better idea of the format, as I only own the cards and have not played the format competitively in a long time.

MTGS would probably be a better place to discuss this stuff though, as their vintage community is bigger.
As a Vintage veteran, all of your arguments, despite being trolling, are so incorrect that I feel I must respond. Sorry for giving you the response you're trolling for.



Cost is not an issue in Vintage. I went undefeated in a Mox Ruby-prize tournament with a $50 deck. I beat 2 U/B Storm decks, another MUD deck, and the Fish deck that had won the last major event.

Luck is not a factor, either in inconsistencies or turn 2 wins. Vintage games consistently go past turn 6-7. They do. Turn 1 combo decks get stopped by the omnipresent Force of Will, or by Sphere of Resistance, or by Cabal Therapy or Mindbreak Trap or Stifle or Flusterstorm or Thalia or Trinisphere or Lodestone Golem or Chalice of the Void. I know, because I play a turn 2 combo deck and even when I win fast, I have to fight through hate to do it.

As for inconsistencies in the power cards, that isn't a factor at all. I've won games with powerless decks, much less powerless hands in decks that use power. An opening hand of [ESG, Hermit Druid, Bayou, Cabal Therapy, Force, Force, Narcomoeba] is perfectly fine against a hand of [Mox, Mox, Thalia, SoR, Bob, Plains, Marsh Flats]. The fact that I didn't draw my power and he did, means nothing if my deck is well constructed. Not only that, most decks are highly consistent because they run a high saturation of tutors and draw spells.

I do not appreciate your trolling in other forums, but I take it especially unkindly that you are attemtping to move into my home in the Eternal forums, and doing it with the most blasé ignorance you can muster. Please either leave, or stop being a troll.
Etiamnunc sto, etiamsi caelum ruat.
Could just report him, I guess.

As well, I had no idea you played so much T1, SC.  I've seen your post of that hermit druid / Sutured Ghoul / */* guy who's name I forgot.  I like the deck, actually.  Do you do your testing on Cockatrice? 

I've been trying to make a mud deck recently; just have to finish getting my last workshop.  Sadly, vintage tournament scene in Edmonton is terrible.  Only a few friends and I actually own the card base.

Something seems odd about his post, like he's pasted from MS Word or something.  Someone else's argument.
Oh, I'm glad you like it. it's a pretty fun deck. Getting harder to play around with though, now that Thalia Parfait is a thing, Mana Drain is coming back, and Grafdigger's Cage has been printed =/ I have been considering running a different win package from Sutured Ghoul so that I can win on upkeep without swinging.

I do some testing on Cockatrice, but mostly with my group of friends and proxy-filled sleeves.


Sorry to hear about the lack of support in your area; you should consider Proxy tournaments (99% of Vintage events are 10-15 proxies here, hence why money is not an issue). Help your friends who don't have the cards get used to the format with fully- or mostly-proxied decks, then run events where they can skip paying for the 10 most expensive cards. Try to build up interest in several local game shops and maybe get a weekly or monthly thing going.
Etiamnunc sto, etiamsi caelum ruat.

I will explain to all of you why Vintage is a bad format and why the other formats outthere are all better.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



  • A lot of the core cards are very costly. If you are not able to spare a total of the Large Sum of $7000 on the Power 9 and Mana Crypt and Library of Alexandria and the Original Duals and Mishra's Workshops and Tolarian Academies and Mana Drain then you will be struggling to make a Viable Vintage Deck.

  • A lot of over powerful Cards are restricted. Seriously I do not get why this decision was made. It just creates a lot of extra luck when 12 of the Best Cards are inconsistently drawn and putts Vintage on the top of the luck matters spectrum.

  • Old-uns are legal. This creatures weird games. Even though they do not see play, expansion matters cards are just silly.

  • Many decks win on turn 2-3 Consistently. This means that in 75% of cases the dice roll is what decides who wins where it is about 30% in nearby legacy and just a meager 5% in Standard and Extended with 10% in Modern.


Spoken like someone who has never actually played Vintage!  Jealous much.

STEP 1: Find your cousin STEP 2: Get your cousin in the cannon STEP: 3 Find another cousin
No need to call the OP a troll, Vintage clearly does have some issues, it's not the most popular of formats. On the other hand there are good counterpoints as well.
Vintage is unpopular for two main reasons: a) It is not as visible as the other formats, and b) Players are discouraged from entering it because of percieved problems with the format, which Zokorad has presented in his usual trolling manner, and which are not real problems.


Coming in and asking "Is there a way to fix these problems?", or "Is Vintage really like this?" is valid. Coming in and saying "Vintage sucks and anybody who disagrees is wrong" is trolling. 
Etiamnunc sto, etiamsi caelum ruat.
Well a lot of vintage decks play with proxies either none up to 10 I have seen. I have some decks with no power 9 and still do well. If you don't like vintage go play legacy or commander or ect ect. So many different formats not all are for everyone
I am a new player and I feel that OP is not trolling. There is a strictly logical statement that says "if you wanted to top 8 for the last four years, you had three choices, two of them ridiculously expensive"

1. Play a Black Lotus and the Five Moxes, 28 of the 32 top 8 decks.
2. No Black Lotus, yes Five Moxes, 2 additional decks.
3. Golgari deck, 2 additional decks.

If that is not a very limited field of play I don't know what is.

If the vintage restricted list was reprinted, and vintage got some new cards the way Commander works, well, that would be nice....I know its anathema, but I am still wielding the newbie aura.

Also, in a no-proxy setting, looks to me that if you are playing a budget vintage deck you are effectively playing some form of legacy, right?

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...and in no way do I mean to offend vintage players....just trying to understand the format. It is very appealing because you can play the power 10 (as proxies, of course!!!) and because it really does include all magic cards minus ante and "drop from above" cards.

Please check out my Blog:

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Please check out my YouTube channel:

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There are very few non-proxy environments. Blue Bell and Gencon are the only ones I can think of offhand. However, in proxy environments, which are well worth playing (the prizes are usually the cards you are proxying), you can Top 8 with a $50 deck, as I technically did (I went 4-0 and dropped right before the cut to Top 8 in a Mox Ruby tournament). There are also poweful rogue builds that can cope with not having the expensive cards; the reason they are not played is not because they aren't viable, it's because the kind of people who want to play Vintage competitively already have the expensive cards anyway. Others are discouraged by the perceived problems and expenses.

Again, Zokorad is trolling. It is not trolling to bring up problems with or questions about the format; that is perfectly acceptable. It is not trolling because Zokorad doesn't believe what he is saying and is just fishing for a response (though this is probably true). It is trolling because of the tone and vitriol. Coming in and saying "Vintage sucks and you're wrong no matter what you say" is not communication, nor is it a constructive contribution.

Also, no, budget Vintage is not Legacy. Some budget decks may end up being Legacy legal, but you build for an entirely different meta. For instance, a budget red deck would definitely include Gorilla Shaman, a card that is not very good in Legacy. The Mountains Win Again was a popular budget build a few years ago that ran Jagged Poppet, a card that's pretty much unplayable in Legacy.
Etiamnunc sto, etiamsi caelum ruat.
Just as a note:  Dexterity cards are banned because they are dexterity cards. 

Ante cards are also banned, I would think, in sanction tournaments, UNLESS  there were rules of the tournament where ante was explicitely allowed.  In all other cases, banned.
There are very few non-proxy environments. Blue Bell and Gencon are the only ones I can think of offhand. However, in proxy environments, which are well worth playing (the prizes are usually the cards you are proxying), you can Top 8 with a $50 deck, as I technically did (I went 4-0 and dropped right before the cut to Top 8 in a Mox Ruby tournament). There are also poweful rogue builds that can cope with not having the expensive cards; the reason they are not played is not because they aren't viable, it's because the kind of people who want to play Vintage competitively already have the expensive cards anyway. Others are discouraged by the perceived problems and expenses. Again, Zokorad is trolling. It is not trolling to bring up problems with or questions about the format; that is perfectly acceptable. It is not trolling because Zokorad doesn't believe what he is saying and is just fishing for a response (though this is probably true). It is trolling because of the tone and vitriol. Coming in and saying "Vintage sucks and you're wrong no matter what you say" is not communication, nor is it a constructive contribution. Also, no, budget Vintage is not Legacy. Some budget decks may end up being Legacy legal, but you build for an entirely different meta. For instance, a budget red deck would definitely include Gorilla Shaman, a card that is not very good in Legacy. The Mountains Win Again was a popular budget build a few years ago that ran Jagged Poppet, a card that's pretty much unplayable in Legacy.



thanls for your thoughtful answer!

Please check out my Blog:

Magic the Gathering Adventures Blog

http://mtgadventures.blogspot.com/

Please check out my YouTube channel:

http://www.youtube.com/user/rubiera22/featured

 

No problem! It's very refreshing to have someone ask real questions and seek (and listen to) the answers. I hope I didn't sound callous, but in these forums we are accustomed to responses like Zokorad's in the first few posts, even from ourselves; there is an air of defensiveness that makes it hard to accept answers or take questions seriously.

If you have any other questions about the Vintage meta, playing Vintage competitively, or the game in general, please feel free to ask! =) I hope you are more interested in pursuing the format now.
Etiamnunc sto, etiamsi caelum ruat.
I love how everybody realized that zokorad was a troll, but replied anyways.



I've never been able to resist. Who knows, someday one of them might listen to intelligence and reason.
Etiamnunc sto, etiamsi caelum ruat.
I love how everybody realized that zokorad was a troll, but replied anyways.



I've never been able to resist. Who knows, someday one of them might listen to intelligence and reason.


Intelligence and reason have no place on the internet.  They don't fit in here.
I love how everybody realized that zokorad was a troll, but replied anyways.



I've never been able to resist. Who knows, someday one of them might listen to intelligence and reason.


Intelligence and reason have no place on the internet.  They don't fit in here.



NUH UH THEY DO CUZ YOURE WRONG AND I DONT HAVE TO LISTEN TO YOU
Etiamnunc sto, etiamsi caelum ruat.
Better ... but you came dangerously close to spelling "you're" right.
No, it is good to reply to trolls such as this.  Otherwise people new to the format (like me) have no reason to not assume he is correct.  Of course, getting caught in a long 'discussion' with a troll is not usually a good use of time.

Sometimes you need to feed them , trolls gotta eat too!

                                                                                                                                                                                        <----- Loser.

OP says vintage is a bad format and then mentions Extended in his post. lolz.  Modern is here to stay and extended is dead.  Legacy is also on its way out the door (at least in terms of popularity).
Guys, show me a Pro Tour Vintage deck that wouldn't lose to a single Cranial Extraction or Extract?

IMAGE(http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/1/1c/Spr_4p_389.png)

Guys, show me a Pro Tour Vintage deck that wouldn't lose to a single Cranial Extraction or Extract?


Fish?  MUD?  Any combo deck that packs multiple killcons?
I hate dogs.
Guys, show me a Pro Tour Vintage deck that wouldn't lose to a single Cranial Extraction or Extract?



just lol.  here some sample decks, none of which die to your scrubby hate cards.  its funny that you complain that people arent original, but then claim that generic hate that isnt even that good kills everything.  i have bad news for you.  you arent a vintage player; youre a casual player.  this is not an insult; most people arent vintage players.  its expensive and time-consuming.  and it involves playing the game on a level that means you can not only deal with threats, but dismiss most of them as subpar plays, and play around them without much effort.  the battle is won against most would be vintage players before the game even starts by virture of their poor deck choices.  your aforementioned cranial extraction/extract deck.  i also have to assume you wouldnt play either of those cards because they are "cheap" without even realizing that they are almost unplayably bad.


Vintage RUG Delver, by Mike Solymossy
Business (41)
4 Force of Will
2 Mental Misstep
3 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Snare
2 Steel Sabotage
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Gush
1 Time Walk
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavaging Ooze
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Delver of Secrets


Mana Sources (19)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Forest


Sideboard (15)
3 Nature’s Claim
3 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Mountain
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Ancient Grudge



*****


UR Landstill, by Chris Pikula
Business (35)
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Mental Misstep
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Mana Drain
2 Fire/Ice
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Standstill
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


Mana Sources (25)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Mountain
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra’s Factory


Sideboard (15)
3 Ingot Chewer
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Lightning Bolt




*****


Cobra Gush, by Stephen Menendian
Business (38)
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Gush
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Flusterstorm
2 Trygon Predator
1 Necropotence
1 Fastbond
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Tinker
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll


Mana Sources (22)
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island


Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Nature’s Claim
3 Ingot Chewer
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Mountain

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Any combo deck that packs multiple killcons?



That would be all of them. Even Belcher runs Empty the Warrens, Tendrils, AND Burning wish.

GM_Champion is bad at Vintage, and has already shown that he doesn't want to back up his words with games against any of us. 
Etiamnunc sto, etiamsi caelum ruat.
Any combo deck that packs multiple killcons?



That would be all of them. Even Belcher runs Empty the Warrens, Tendrils, AND Burning wish.

GM_Champion is bad at Vintage, and has already shown that he doesn't want to back up his words with games against any of us. 


You're just jealous that YOU didn't think up the "holy war" archetype...
I hate dogs.
I have a really original idea. I post links to all of the really "good" decks that I make because that will be useful to the masses. 
oh really?  lets take a look.

Vintage RUG Delver, by Mike Solymossy

4 Force of Will - counters both
2 Mental Misstep - counters extract
3 Flusterstorm - counters both
2 Snapcaster Mage - win condition, recurs a counter
3 Tarmogoyf - win condition
1 Scavaging Ooze - win condition
2 Vendilion Clique - win condition, counters both
4 Delver of Secrets - win condition


so this deck has 13 ways to counter your 8 cards, and a total of 12 cards of five different kinds that can win the game.  sorta seems like youre wrong.  as usual.  you need to maybe stop talking, because no one cares.  you are really deeply embarrassing yourself.

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A creative hub for art and all things Magical, Dungeony, and Dragony!

 

Feel free to copy this into your sig, adding one to the generation number.

 

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a whole nother?  lol

tournament results speak for themselves.  go win a tournament if your ideas are so correct.  i dont know how else to explain it to you, because you obviously arent getting it.  you wont even play a game against me.

what do you get out of trolling people?  is your life really so empty?  or are you honestly that retarded?  either way, please win a darwin award soon.  back to being blocked you go.

www.nogoblinsallowed.com

 

A creative hub for art and all things Magical, Dungeony, and Dragony!

 

Feel free to copy this into your sig, adding one to the generation number.

 

Generation=0

im on the side of the decks that have won tournaments; you are saying they are easily beaten.  the onus is on you.

i dont feel the need to prove im better than you.  you said you could easily defeat my deck.  i said you were wrong.  i offered to prove it, because that when two people disagree about something that is an issue of fact rather than opinion, the logical course for both parties is to discover the answer.  in the case, that answer is solved with a few games of magic.  im happy to be proven wrong.  you, however, seem to be afraid of a little girl, or else you are not afraid but erroneously believe this issue to be a matter of opinion rather than fact.  or neither, since youre a troll.

anyways is not a word.  the word is anyway.  and i dont put a game over the happiness of people.  i value happiness.  which is why i think things like trolling, giving new posters and players incorrect and/or misleading advice, and making contradictory statements are bad.

www.nogoblinsallowed.com

 

A creative hub for art and all things Magical, Dungeony, and Dragony!

 

Feel free to copy this into your sig, adding one to the generation number.

 

Generation=0

No person deserves to be treated as you've treated me.

One day, I hope you regret how you've treated me.

It'll happen when you get older and grow up.

You'll realize the greatest thing in life is "just to love, and be loved in return".

If you want to play my decks I sent you some of them. Go play against them with someone else.


9/10

The format sucks because wizards has all but publically stated that they aren't going to support it.

Casual Play Archetypes | The Casual Play FAQ: A Guide to the Game of Magic | The Return of Group-Make-A-Deck!

Contributions are welcomed!

 

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Join us!  
 

No person deserves to be treated as you've treated me.

One day, I hope you regret how you've treated me.

It'll happen when you get older and grow up.

You'll realize the greatest thing in life is "just to love, and be loved in return".

If you want to play my decks I sent you some of them. Go play against them with someone else.


9/10

The format sucks because wizards has all but publically stated that they aren't going to support it.



How, precisely, does WotC support it? I mean, are you frustrated that they don't host more Vintage tournaments? Because really, all you need to do to 'support' Vintage is keep releasing cards. It's the most inclusive format in the game when it comes to what cards you can use, the combinations you can pull off, et cetera.


How, precisely, does WotC support it? I mean, are you frustrated that they don't host more Vintage tournaments? Because really, all you need to do to 'support' Vintage is keep releasing cards. It's the most inclusive format in the game when it comes to what cards you can use, the combinations you can pull off, et cetera.



I would like to add this by pointing out the staggering number of new cards that are played in Vintage: Mental Misstep, Thalia, Snapcaster, JTMS, Cavern of Souls, Scavenging Ooze, Rest in Peace, Gradigger's Cage, Stony Silence, Emrakul, Phyrexian Revoker, Lodestone Golem, Beast Within, Past in Flames, Griselbrand, Delver, Flusterstorm, Mindbreak Trap. Heck even Narcomoeba/Dread Return/Bridge from Below/GGT, Goyf/V. Clique/Confidant, Ad Nauseam, and Belcher are all modern-bordered; And it's not like all these cards got printed and Vintage players said, "yeah, that's good enough". A lot of these cards have spawned their own archetypes.
Etiamnunc sto, etiamsi caelum ruat.


How, precisely, does WotC support it? I mean, are you frustrated that they don't host more Vintage tournaments? Because really, all you need to do to 'support' Vintage is keep releasing cards. It's the most inclusive format in the game when it comes to what cards you can use, the combinations you can pull off, et cetera.



I would like to add this by pointing out the staggering number of new cards that are played in Vintage: Mental Misstep, Thalia, Snapcaster, JTMS, Cavern of Souls, Scavenging Ooze, Rest in Peace, Gradigger's Cage, Stony Silence, Emrakul, Phyrexian Revoker, Lodestone Golem, Beast Within, Past in Flames, Griselbrand, Delver, Flusterstorm, Mindbreak Trap. Heck even Narcomoeba/Dread Return/Bridge from Below/GGT, Goyf/V. Clique/Confidant, Ad Nauseam, and Belcher are all modern-bordered; And it's not like all these cards got printed and Vintage players said, "yeah, that's good enough". A lot of these cards have spawned their own archetypes.


Hypothetically if you're only playing Vintage the amount of cards that are relevant per set is very low. It's not like Vintage players are bankrolling anything for Wizards. In addition, Wizards is not designing cards with vintage in mind either. 
What you've said is correct, but they still support Vintage in the form of tournaments; albeit less so because of format popularity.  That they still support the ban and restricted list shows that they do keep in mind the health of the format. 

It's not an either/or, just not as focused as more popular formats. 
No person deserves to be treated as you've treated me.

One day, I hope you regret how you've treated me.

It'll happen when you get older and grow up.

You'll realize the greatest thing in life is "just to love, and be loved in return".

If you want to play my decks I sent you some of them. Go play against them with someone else.


9/10

The format sucks because wizards has all but publically stated that they aren't going to support it.



How, precisely, does WotC support it?



by removing the reserved list and reprinting power 9, duals, force of will, mishra's workshop etc

it'll never happen, especially now that modern exists, but it'd be amazing for vintage and legacy 
192884403 wrote:
firstrike
56965458 wrote:
97820278 wrote:
56965458 wrote:
97820278 wrote:
Ceci n'est pas une pipe.
This definitely doesn't mean what you think it means.
I was referring to the painting The Treachery of Images.
I know.
Wizards does support it if you just pay attention to the content they print. Just as Chaos stated, lots of the new content finds a special home in Vintage format. However, I've got to say it's maybe my least favorite format. All the decks are nearly identical (Lotus, Mox, etc.) and everyone does nothing but run endless counterspells. That's all pretty boring to me, I like diversity, build up, and game progression.

IMAGE(http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/1/1c/Spr_4p_389.png)