Shuffling and drawing while searching

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Ok this is a little convoluted... I'm searching my library, and choose to play a Panglacial wurm. When playing it, I activate a Chromatic Sphere replacing the card draw with Forbidden Crypt, with no cards in my graveyard, I would lose, but Lich's Mirror replaces the loss.


I control but don't own another sphere, so I still have it in play after the mirror's effect.


Seeing as I am still searching my library, can I look at the new top card before deciding to activate the second sphere to pay for the wurm's cost?

Ok this is a little convoluted...

A "little"??

I'm searching my library, and choose to play a Panglacial wurm. When playing it, I activate a Chromatic Sphere replacing the card draw with Forbidden Crypt, with no cards in my graveyard, I would lose, but Lich's Mirror replaces the loss.

I control but don't own another sphere, so I still have it in play after the mirror's effect.


Seeing as I am still searching my library, can I look at the new top card before deciding to activate the second sphere to pay for the wurm's cost?


I'd say yes. Due to the search, you are allowed to look at all the cards in your library. The replacement effects from the first chromatic sphere happen immediately, so once that mana ability resolves and you have shuffled your library (note: the library does need to be randomized, which effectively means no peeking while you are shuffling) you can tell what the top card is and make an informed decision about what mana ability to activate next.
No.

When casting Panglacial Wurm from your library while searching it, you cannot resume the search until after you have finished casting it and you can only look at the top card of your library while searching it or if something lets you.

EDIT: From the rulings for the Wurm.
7/15/2006 Casting Panglacial Wurm while searching your library follows all the normal rules for casting a creature spell, except for timing (casting the Wurm this way always occurs during the resolution of another spell or ability) and what zone the Wurm is being cast from. The spell goes on the stack. You have to pay the Wurm's mana cost and any applicable additional costs, which means you can activate mana abilities while you're casting the Wurm while you're searching your library.

7/15/2006 After you cast Panglacial Wurm, you pick up the search effect where you left off. When the search effect finishes resolving, the active player gets priority with Panglacial Wurm on the stack. Any abilities that triggered when the spell was cast are put on the stack now.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

Considering this is the second Sphere, I don't think he can successfully cast Panglacial Wurm. Lich's Mirror caused all his permanents to be shuffled into his library during the casting of the spell.
56965458 wrote:
As long as it's random, I really can't see where's the problem. Anyway, there's already a few standard ways for doing this. We listed them in this thread. If someone does the bogey-bogey, eats the cards, waits until they come out, look out the approximate order, place replacements in the same order, calls the president to ask him to give him a string of numbers, puts the card in the given order, then pick the cards in the order given by taking the date of birth of his opponent, reversed, and taking only every other number, then a judge can clearly declare that he's random enough.
56874518 wrote:
The beauty of sarcasm is that when the person using it is totally incorrect, you can just remove the sarcasm and end up with a post that is actually correct.
He said he controls but doesn't own the second sphere, so it doesn't get shuffled in.
All Generalizations are Bad
Considering this is the second Sphere, I don't think he can successfully cast Panglacial Wurm. Lich's Mirror caused all his permanents to be shuffled into his library during the casting of the spell.


Re-read the question. He CONTROLS, but does not OWN the second sphere. Lich's Mirror only shuffles permanents you OWN into your library, not permanents you CONTROL.
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Ah, missed that.
56965458 wrote:
As long as it's random, I really can't see where's the problem. Anyway, there's already a few standard ways for doing this. We listed them in this thread. If someone does the bogey-bogey, eats the cards, waits until they come out, look out the approximate order, place replacements in the same order, calls the president to ask him to give him a string of numbers, puts the card in the given order, then pick the cards in the order given by taking the date of birth of his opponent, reversed, and taking only every other number, then a judge can clearly declare that he's random enough.
56874518 wrote:
The beauty of sarcasm is that when the person using it is totally incorrect, you can just remove the sarcasm and end up with a post that is actually correct.
To be fair, he didn't specify which, if any, other mana abilities he had already activated before the first Sphere. I asked about that potential issue here.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

You won't be able to do that.

Here's how it might happen. Note the repeated step numbers where replacement effects are explicitly shown.

1) Cast Diabolic Tutor. You put it on the stack and pay its cost.
2) Diabolic Tutor resolves. You begin your search.
3) While searching, you announce Panglacial Wurm.
4) You use Chromatic Sphere and some other lands to pay for Panglacial Wurm.
5) Chromatic Sphere is exiled due to Forbidden Crypt's second ability.
6) is added to your pool, and you draw a card. (You'll know what card it will be.)
6) is added to your pool, and you draw a card put a card from your graveyard into your hand.
7) You can't put a card from your graveyard into your hand, so ignore that instruction.
8) Forbidden Crypt tells you to lose the game, because you couldn't follow its instruction. You lose the game.
8) You lose the game shuffle things into your library, etc. (due to Lich's Mirror). Your library is now properly randomized. Draw 7 cards and go to 20 life. You still have that other Sphere.
9) You finish casting Panglacial Wurm. No player gets priority just yet.
10) Finish that search. Now you know the top card of your library, but it's too late to pay for Panglacial Wurm. A cool and useful card goes into your hand. Oops, gotta shuffle.
11) Diabolic Tutor finishes resolving and goes to your graveyard.
12) The active player (probably you) gets priority. Assuming no responses, Panglacial Wurm resolves. You've got no lands and no idea what's on top of your library, but at least you've got a 9/5.

*takes a deep breath*

tl;dr: No, you probably won't know because search effects tend to make you shuffle afterwards.
I'm assuming this scenario is theoretical, but just in case it really did happen, Chromatic Sphere should be in your graveyard in time to pick it up with Forbidden Crypt. Its lose the game effect won't happen.

But we can sidestep that by giving your opponent a Leyline of the Void. Here's how it might happen. Note the repeated step numbers where replacement effects are explicitly shown.



You don't need the Leyline  The Crypt exiles the card.

Also, I think the idea is to use the first Sphere before any other mana abilities.  That's what makes the second sphere relevent.

Haha oops. Reading fail. Most of that still applies, but I'll edit my post.

Comp Rules references available upon request. Warning: it'll be kinda long.
You won't be able to do that.

Here's how it might happen. Note the repeated step numbers where replacement effects are explicitly shown.

1) Cast Diabolic Tutor. You put it on the stack and pay its cost.
2) Diabolic Tutor resolves. You begin your search.
3) While searching, you announce Panglacial Wurm.
4) You use Chromatic Sphere and some other lands to pay for Panglacial Wurm.
5) Chromatic Sphere is exiled due to Forbidden Crypt's second ability.
6) is added to your pool, and you draw a card. (You'll know what card it will be.)
6) is added to your pool, and you draw a card put a card from your graveyard into your hand.
7) You can't put a card from your graveyard into your hand, so ignore that instruction.
8) Forbidden Crypt tells you to lose the game, because you couldn't follow its instruction. You lose the game.
8) You lose the game shuffle things into your library, etc. (due to Lich's Mirror). Your library is now properly randomized. Draw 7 cards and go to 20 life. You still have that other Sphere.
9) You finish casting Panglacial Wurm. No player gets priority just yet.
10) Finish that search. Now you know the top card of your library, but it's too late to pay for Panglacial Wurm. A cool and useful card goes into your hand. Oops, gotta shuffle.
11) Diabolic Tutor finishes resolving and goes to your graveyard.
12) The active player (probably you) gets priority. Assuming no responses, Panglacial Wurm resolves. You've got no lands and no idea what's on top of your library, but at least you've got a 9/5.

*takes a deep breath*

tl;dr: No, you probably won't know because search effects tend to make you shuffle afterwards.




What if in step 4 your lands produce , so you're forced to activate both spheres to get .
Mana abilities don't use the stack, so there's no way to activate both spheres "together." When you activate the first one (presumably the one you own), it'll take you all the way up to step 9. In this case, "Finish casting Panglacial Wurm" involves activating more mana abilities to pay its cost. You'll have to activate the other Sphere after Lich's Mirror has done its thing, which will get you an 8th card. Then, you can finish searching.
When you activate the sphere, does the 'Draw a card' part of it happen immediately because it is part of a mana ability, even though something else is resolving,  or does it go on the stack and can be responded to?

Is it impossible to respond to the draw a card part of the sphere?  Say by using Spin into Myth?
the draw happens immediatly, but you don't get to see the card until you are done casting
it cannot be responded to
proud member of the 2011 community team
the draw happens immediatly, but you don't get to see the card until you are done casting
it cannot be responded to




Do you mean the draw happens right away, but you can't look at it until the spell is done resolving (in the example used, the Tutor)?
not resolving, casting
if you don't use the sphere during the casting of a spell you simply draw normally
proud member of the 2011 community team
You'll finally get to look at any cards you drew during this whole process once you complete step 9 (casting Panglacial Wurm). That means the seven cards you got from Lich's Mirror, as well as a potential additional one from Chromatic Sphere, are all face down until that point. No checking to see what cards you got before then for any reason.

Note that in the example, the draw from the first Chromatic Sphere never actually occurred -- it was replaced by a different event.
You'll finally get to look at any cards you drew during this whole process once you complete step 9 (casting Panglacial Wurm). That means the seven cards you got from Lich's Mirror, as well as a potential additional one from Chromatic Sphere, are all face down until that point. No checking to see what cards you got before then for any reason.

Note that in the example, the draw from the first Chromatic Sphere never actually occurred -- it was replaced by a different event.




I see the ruling on the sphere that says you don't look at the card until you finish casting the spell.  Is there any reason for this or rules support besides that ruling?
yes, if the spell is an illegal action you can rewind it and all mana abilities used while casting it
if the card was revealed you now know what the top card of your library is

see also: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
proud member of the 2011 community team
You'll finally get to look at any cards you drew during this whole process once you complete step 9 (casting Panglacial Wurm). That means the seven cards you got from Lich's Mirror, as well as a potential additional one from Chromatic Sphere, are all face down until that point. No checking to see what cards you got before then for any reason.

Note that in the example, the draw from the first Chromatic Sphere never actually occurred -- it was replaced by a different event.




I see the ruling on the sphere that says you don't look at the card until you finish casting the spell.  Is there any reason for this or rules support besides that ruling?



There is a rule for it.  See this thread:
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
Do you get to look at the cards you draw with Lich's Mirror and a 2nd Sphere since you are drawing them while searching your library?  When Lich's Mirror is making you shuffle, do you get to see how they are being shuffled since you are doing it while searching your library?

Do you get to keep searching the library while your opponent shuffles your deck?
No, you don't get to look at your library while it's being shuffled. As far as the game is concerned, there is no "while you're shuffling". Shuffling your library is an atomic action--one moment your library is in one order, and the next it's in an entirely different order. The time we take shuffling is a result of the physical actions we perform to approximate that result, and in order for that approximation to work, you cannot look at the cards while doing it.

What follows isn't an [O]fficial answer, so Nate may contradict me, but my instinct on the card-drawing question is that once the library is shuffled you get to see its order before starting to draw cards, so you'll know what you drew for the Mirror and second Sphere despite the fact that they're face-down in your hand.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

Thank you for the reply.

Since you know what face down cards are going into your hand as you draw them can any of the following happen:

If the first card drawn face down is a Miracle, and assuming it's your first draw for the turn, does the Miracle effect trigger and can you cast that card immediately for it's Miracle cost (assuming you have mana to cast it)?

Once it's time to finish casting the Panglacial Wurm and you need to finish paying for it, if you know you have a face-down card in your hand that can be used to help pay the remaining cost, can you use it?
1. The card will be revealed when you're done casting whatever you're casting. In the scenarios where this happens, you'll be in the middle of some other spell or ability resolving and the Miracle will be revealed (to you) before that's done. As far as I can see a Miracle should be able to trigger as long as you haven't drawn anything else since, but how exactly Miracles work is a bit muddy (in my mind, and as far as I understand, in the rules themselves as well) and I'd defer to someone more knowledgable about that bit of rules technology.

2. You may need to clarify the question. If you mean to ask if you can discard it for something like Bog Witch, yes, I don't see anything stopping you from doing this. If you mean can you cast it if it's something like Dark Ritual, absolutely not, for the same reasons you couldn't cast it in any other situation where something was in the middle of resolving.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011


2. You may need to clarify the question. If you mean to ask if you can discard it for something like Bog Witch, yes, I don't see anything stopping you from doing this. If you mean can you cast it if it's something like Dark Ritual, absolutely not, for the same reasons you couldn't cast it in any other situation where something was in the middle of resolving.




I guess I'm asking if you have a Metalworker in play and you know that all of the face down cards you've drawn are artifacts.  Can you reveal them using Metalwork's mana ability to help pay for the Panglacial Wurm?
Technically, the rules permit this. It is a consequence of the fact that no rule differentiates cards in your hand that you can look at from those you cannot.

However, I would play it as if it were illegal to do things based on the characteristics of a face-down card that I can't look at. At a tournament, I would ask a judge and play it based on his or her ruling.

We don't have any official word on it yet. If a rules update eventually covers this, my personal expectation is that this play will become illegal.
Yeah, it seems face-down cards in the hand are something that is completely omitted from the rules.  So if you can keep track of which card is which, you can treat them like normal cards in your hand.
this thread brought up a number of issues!

am i correct in saying that the following four issues need (or at least could benefit from) an official ruling? and am i missing anything else?

1) are you allowed to look at the new top card after shuffling from Lich's Mirror's effect, before activating your second Chromatic Sphere?
2) when undoing the mana ability of the first Chromatic Sphere, where does the Pancglacial Wurm go? especially how do you undo the shuffling of Lich's Mirror? (and what if you knew what the top few cards of your library were before the shuffling (from an Index or something similar) -- do you put your library in that state when you "undo"?)
3) if you know what cards the face-down cards in your hand are (from a previous Index or Brainstorm for example), can you use abilities on them (such as with Elvish Spirit Guide's mana ability), ...
4) .. or use the fact that they're artifacts (such as when using Metalworker's mana ability)?
Correct. I've added a few notes to each case.

1) Are you allowed to look at the new top card after shuffling from Lich's Mirror's effect, before activating your second Chromatic Sphere?

Panglacial Wurm has a ruling that implies you may not be able to look, but it's by no means definitive.

7/15/2006
After you cast Panglacial Wurm, you pick up the search effect where you left off. When the search effect finishes resolving, the active player gets priority with Panglacial Wurm on the stack. Any abilities that triggered when the spell was cast are put on the stack now.


2) when undoing the mana ability of the first Chromatic Sphere, where does the Panglacial Wurm go? especially how do you undo the shuffling of Lich's Mirror? (and what if you knew the top few cards of your library (from an Index or something similar) -- do you put your library in that state when you "undo"?)

A shuffle can never be undone, but we are unclear on where the Wurm ends up. The most sensible thing would be to shuffle it in. However, that is an arbitrary conclusion. This is less a rules issue and more an infraction procedure issue.

3) if you know what cards the face-down cards in your hand are (from a previous Index or Brainstorm for example), can you use abilities on them (such as with ____), ...
4) .. or use the fact that they're artifacts (such as using Metalworker's ability)?

The rules are silent on these, so we definitely need a ruling.
I'd be curious to know how any of this currently is handled in Magic Online, if anyone has the cards to test it. :D
I love convoluted combos like this. Panglacial Wurm has always been a troublemaker with respect to the comprehensive rules. I almost feel like it needs it's own special casting rules to as it's the only way to cast a card in the middle of searching a library, which causes some major conundrums.
1. The card will be revealed when you're done casting whatever you're casting. In the scenarios where this happens, you'll be in the middle of some other spell or ability resolving and the Miracle will be revealed (to you) before that's done. As far as I can see a Miracle should be able to trigger as long as you haven't drawn anything else since, but how exactly Miracles work is a bit muddy (in my mind, and as far as I understand, in the rules themselves as well) and I'd defer to someone more knowledgable about that bit of rules technology.



But I thought you had to reveal the Miracle as you draw it, and if you draw a subsequent card before revealing it, it's too late to do the Miracle (otherwise how do you prove that it was the first card you drew?).

But I thought you had to reveal the Miracle as you draw it, and if you draw a subsequent card before revealing it, it's too late to do the Miracle (otherwise how do you prove that it was the first card you drew?).


The players reveals the Miracle and keep it revealed all the time while drawing the other card, putting the Miracle trigger on the stack, waiting for responses, having the trigger resolves up to finally casting the still-revealed Miracle card from hand.

[<o>]
But I thought you had to reveal the Miracle as you draw it, and if you draw a subsequent card before revealing it, it's too late to do the Miracle (otherwise how do you prove that it was the first card you drew?).

From a Twitter discussion with the rules manager:
@GrifterMage: @TabakRules I announce a spell on my opponent's turn & sac Chromatic Sphere to pay for it. If the card I draw's a Miracle, can I use it?
@MagicShoebox: @GrifterMage @tabakrules I believe the answer is currently no, but it might change if this is decided to be undesirable.
@TabakRules: @MagicShoebox @GrifterMage Yeah, that's undesirable. Just keep the card separated and you can reveal it as soon as its identity is known.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

But I thought you had to reveal the Miracle as you draw it, and if you draw a subsequent card before revealing it, it's too late to do the Miracle (otherwise how do you prove that it was the first card you drew?).

From a Twitter discussion with the rules manager:
@GrifterMage: @TabakRules I announce a spell on my opponent's turn & sac Chromatic Sphere to pay for it. If the card I draw's a Miracle, can I use it?
@MagicShoebox: @GrifterMage @tabakrules I believe the answer is currently no, but it might change if this is decided to be undesirable.
@TabakRules: @MagicShoebox @GrifterMage Yeah, that's undesirable. Just keep the card separated and you can reveal it as soon as its identity is known.




Makes sense from a logical standpoint, but I thought the ruling on miracle was that the card couldn't hit your hand if you wanted to miracle it.  And from posts earlier in this thread, it seems that cards you draw during the resolution of a spell are considered in your hand facedown.  So how would the rules ever allow you to miracle it under this definition?
Your understanding is incorrect. When you are done drawing the card and can reveal it for Miracle, it's already in your hand, and remains so until the Miracle triggered ability resolves (at which point it's either no longer revealed, or no longer in your hand). The generally accepted best practise is not to let it physically touch any of the other cards in your hand, but that doesn't change the fact that it's in the Hand zone as far as the game is concerned.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
Since the cards you drew will be face down, they'll naturally be separated from the cards already in your hand. As long as you draw them in a way that both players should reasonably be able to track which card was drawn first (say, you keep them stacked in order or you separate the first draw entirely just by habit), you can take advantage of miracle.

The main thing that you wouldn't be able to do is put your hand face down, and then add the drawn cards on top of that pile.