Warlocks and Sorcerers FEAR Wizards, because Wizards are Jerks

Today's L&L article goes over the arcane caster trio, but there is a string bias of opinion there
www.wizards.com/Dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4...
So for the sake of fairness, here is how everyone else views the Wizard

Sorcerers, hunted by the Wizards: 


Any self-respecting Sorcerer will tell you that wizards are at best dangerous to themselves, at worse a dire threat to those around them (no sorcerer ever thought putting an owl's head on a bear's body was a good idea). Wizards think by reading some books and attending school for a few years they can bend the cosmic forces of the universe to their own amoral ends. Sorcerers know better. Like a bird flies naturally with its wings, a Sorcerer was born with the gift of magic and developes it over a lifetime, but even with such careful practice they are not so foolish to so quickly declare themselves masters of the arcane. 


Wizards view the natural talent of Sorcers with scornful jealousy. They believe sorcerers must be controlled and studied so that whatever power they hold can be harnessed and put to 'better use' (by Wizards). Evil wizards have no compunction with capturing sorcerers, experimenting on them, and eventually harvesting their organs for magical potions and other items.
 


Warlocks, persecuted by the Wizards: 


If wizards are jealous of sorcerers, they simply scoff at warlocks. Warlocks have found a means to access arcane magic different than wizards, and to the intolerant wizards anything not their way is the wrong way. Wizards look down on warlocks as meddlers, thieves, and dangerous renegades, they practice magic outside the institutions established by wizards. Some wizardly academies go so far as to seek out and horde the books that warlocks seek. There are some secrets, a wizard may tell you, that are better off kept secret... and that secret is only for wizards to know.



 

Oh no!

Wizards are the Jocks of D&D!!!

IT'S NOT D&D!!!!!!!   

Today's L&L article goes over the arcane caster trio, but there is a string bias of opinion there
www.wizards.com/Dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4...
So for the sake of fairness, here is how everyone else views the Wizard

Sorcerers, hunted by the Wizards: 


Any self-respecting Sorcerer will tell you that wizards are at best dangerous to themselves, at worse a dire threat to those around them. Wizards think by reading some books and attending school for a few years they can bend the cosmic forces of the universe to their own amoral ends. Sorcerers know better. Like a bird flies naturally with its wings, a Sorcerer was born with the gift of magic and developes it over a lifetime, but even with such careful practice they are not so foolish to so quickly declare themselves masters of the arcane. 


Wizards view the natural talent of Sorcers with scornful jealousy. They believe sorcerers must be controlled and studied so that whatever power they hold can be harnessed and put to 'better use' (by Wizards). Evil wizards have no compunction with capturing sorcerers, experimenting on them, and eventually harvesting their organs for magical potions and other items.




Or to give an even more nuanced viewpoint: Sorcerers believe that one is either born with magical blood or not, and that those born without magical blood will never know the true power of the arcane; Wizards are jealous and fearful of supposedly untrained practioners playing with the raw forces of the universe, but they also hold with a more democratic philosophy that anyone can learn the ways of magic with enough study, and to hell with the idea of "bloodright."

So you have a gang of persecuted elitists who recklessly spend magical energies they only understand on an instinctual basis, and a cabal of amoral meritocrats oppressing a racial minority in the name of saving reality. Who's the good guy? Who's the bad guy?


Warlocks, persecuted by the Wizards: 

If wizards are jealous of sorcerers, they simply scoff at warlocks. Warlocks have found a means to access arcane magic different than wizards, and to the intolerant wizards anything not their way is the wrong way. Wizards look down on warlocks as meddlers, thieves, and dangerous renegades, they practice magic outside the institutions established by wizards. Some wizardly academies go so far as to seek out and horde the books that warlocks seek. There are some secrets, a wizard may tell you, that are better off kept secret... for anyone that's not a Wizard.



On the same vein: Warlocks see Wizards as selfish hoarders of magical power who insist on forcing people to spend decades and decades studying magic (with no thought about what class of people can afford to spend decades poring over books without having to earn a living, and certainly no discussion of what sort of people are admitted into their apprenticeships and academies). Anyone can get magical power, simply by learning the truth that Wizards are trying to hide from the masses and there are so many allies out there who want to liberate the common man from his oppression. Wizards are rather aristocratic/meritocratic and have good reason to fear totally untrained dabblers who are servants of otherworldy forces who want to invade our world and turn humanity/the sapient races into their slaves. 

So we have scrappy auto-didacts seeking to democratize power and knowledge up, but who have literally sold their souls to masters that are beyond the ken of mortals, up against aloof snobs who are deliberately holding back civilizational progress, but who are also fighting to keep humanity/the sapient races free from cthonic darkness. 

Race for the Iron Throne - political and historical analysis of A Song of Ice and Fire.
Oh no!

Wizards are the Jocks of D&D!!!

IT'S NOT D&D!!!!!!!   


Actually, Wizards as Jocks has the ring of historical accuracy as far as actual D&D gameplay goes.
Formerly Batshido, Captain America of the 4vengers
given the magical nature of sorcerors versus wizards, I find it odd that elves are generally described as wizards and not sorcerors in the game.  As I read the class/race descriptions, I would think that Elves would be sorceerors first, then warlocks (making pacts in the fey court) and wizards last - because who has time to read all those books when there is a great big world to explore and play in?
Someone who lives for 700+ years, that's who.

The elves should know the fey better than anyone, and should also realize that the price of time is one they can afford much more than the short-handed price of their freedom.

I would say that Elves might revere sorcerers more than other races of wizards may.  Unless they are worried that one day, "she'll just turn into one of those things warlocks make deals with!"

By the new fluff, Sorcerers are very dangerous, as they can turn into the Riven.
I thought elves lived under ground and were ruled by queens that worshiped a spider.

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

Hush, you!
I actually find this thread catalyst for some very interesting roleplay.

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

Only the evil aligned wizards and warlocks would dare experiment on sorcerers!
Good  aligned wizards and warlocks wouldn't dare experiment on sentient beings!
Someone who lives for 700+ years, that's who.



So, Dragons?  Elves (Eladrin) top out around 350, unless they backpedaled on that, too.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Only the evil aligned wizards and warlocks would dare experiment on sorcerers!
Good  aligned wizards and warlocks wouldn't dare experiment on sentient beings!



Unless they're PCs and said sentient beings happen to have valuable magical components buried deep in their organ meats. Tongue Out
Someone who lives for 700+ years, that's who.



So, Dragons?  Elves (Eladrin) top out around 350, unless they backpedaled on that, too.


They did.
Good post, I like the way you turned it around.

That said, I hope all the stuff they put in the L&L article never sees its way into the core books.
I'm starting PETS

People for the Ethical Treatment of Sorcerers
Personally, I'm not averse to the fluff they're giving. I'm just glad they're putting thought into the fluff, because honestly I felt 4e was a bit lacking in that area
Someone who lives for 700+ years, that's who.



So, Dragons?  Elves (Eladrin) top out around 350, unless they backpedaled on that, too.



They hit old age at 350 in 3rd.  It was a +1d4% for maximum age.  In AD&D, I think the maximum age was actually 1800 years or so.
Personally, I'm not averse to the fluff they're giving. I'm just glad they're putting thought into the fluff, because honestly I felt 4e was a bit lacking in that area



This is one [of the] place[s] I thought 4e did better. Pact magic shouldn't be seen in such a negative light. Elves likely have pact magic as part of their culture, in another thread I said that ancestor worshipping cultures might have ancestor-pacts.

The dual souled sorcrer thing is fine for some specific setting, but even then I think it's too constricting. It's better as the description of some NPCs that fit the sorcerer type rather than a way of describing the sorcerer class as a whole.
One of my players is building an evil sorcerer with silver dragon bloodline.

He's a jerk until he spends all his willpower and then he's the nicest guy in the world.

Should be fun to play.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

One of my players is building an evil sorcerer with silver dragon bloodline. He's a jerk until he spends all his willpower and then he's the nicest guy in the world. Should be fun to play.


This is what I like to hear. 
One of my players is building an evil sorcerer with silver dragon bloodline. He's a jerk until he spends all his willpower and then he's the nicest guy in the world. Should be fun to play.



Sounds great. I probably should have said that the fluff in the L&L article should be an option, but as written it's too constraining.
The trouble with the 'fluff' provided is that this becomes the default for all players and DM's everywhere.  You want to do a world where Sorcs and Wizards don't try to murder or imprison each other on sight?  Great!  Yet now you are going to have to explain that fact to every potential player entering your game.  Because hate and intolerance is the status quo.  Not very smart from a 'let's create a cooperative party' standpoint. 

Btw WotC... seriously?  You are still stuck on beared dwarf women?  Seriously?  You people need to get out more.
To err is human. To fail a Fear save is unforgivable! IMAGE(http://statcdn.worldoftanks.com/comcom_v2/uploads/signatures/wotuserbar04.jpg)
One of my players is building an evil sorcerer with silver dragon bloodline. He's a jerk until he spends all his willpower and then he's the nicest guy in the world. Should be fun to play.



My Dragon is IO... and the transformative effects are almost entirely mystical (already described in another thread)
 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 



Btw WotC... seriously?  You are still stuck on beared dwarf women?  Seriously?  You people need to get out more.


Don't worry, Mr. Schindehette is not inclined toward dwarf lady beards according to the art seminar from this years GenCon. 
Someone who lives for 700+ years, that's who.



So, Dragons?  Elves (Eladrin) top out around 350, unless they backpedaled on that, too.


They did.



Ugh.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Someone who lives for 700+ years, that's who.



So, Dragons?  Elves (Eladrin) top out around 350, unless they backpedaled on that, too.


They did.



Yes I was quite happy about the news that most of the conventions were coming back.  Especially that the Great Wheel would be the default.



CAMRA preserves and protects real ale from the homogenization of modern beer production. D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!
Someone who lives for 700+ years, that's who.



So, Dragons?  Elves (Eladrin) top out around 350, unless they backpedaled on that, too.


They did.



Yes I was quite happy about the news that most of the conventions were coming back.  Especially that the Great Wheel would be the default.





I'm also glad to see the old ways returning. 
You can build the reasons into your world history.

Perhaps wizards via writing and study got organised quicker, they taught schools of students at a time and tried to control magic.

Another option is someone or something is behind Sorcerers or Warlocks, encouraging them to fight the others. A small symptom of the Bloodwar, spearhead of Illthids efforts to take over the surface and block out the sun, or even an addictive quality of arcane magic itself, warping perceptions over time...

Perhaps there was some sort of inquisition, a few bad sorcerers or warlocks got out of hand and suddenly wizards are who royal advisors etc point the finger at the reckless rebels as a way of keeping themselves clear of wrongdoing.

Naturally all of this can be for npc casters, players can avoid it, join in or ignore it as they see fit. Its flavour for options not railroading pcs.

Key things for D&D - Where is the character from and why do they do what they do? / Recurring NPCs - allies and enemies / Plot, World and Personal Events.

You can build the reasons into your world history.

Perhaps wizards via writing and study got organised quicker, they taught schools of students at a time and tried to control magic.

Another option is someone or something is behind Sorcerers or Warlocks, encouraging them to fight the others. A small symptom of the Bloodwar, spearhead of Illthids efforts to take over the surface and block out the sun, or even an addictive quality of arcane magic itself, warping perceptions over time...

Perhaps there was some sort of inquisition, a few bad sorcerers or warlocks got out of hand and suddenly wizards are who royal advisors etc point the finger at the reckless rebels as a way of keeping themselves clear of wrongdoing.

Naturally all of this can be for npc casters, players can avoid it, join in or ignore it as they see fit. Its flavour for options not railroading pcs.



Oh, I can probably find a way to rationalize everything in canon D&D fluff.

But it's stupid on WotC's part to do ask me to do so. If the fluff is this constraining, I'll just get the DDN books used after a year or so.

To me the warlock is actually the most normal caster. Whether it's the Crowley types or the ancient shamans, making pacts with the Other for either your own purposes or the good of the tribe is how a lot of magic works.
For some strange reason I can't quite explain, the article is reminding me of Harry Potter the part about Sorcerers being how a Gryfindor (Wizard) describes a Slytherin "ah they don't desserve their power, they only got into magic because of who their daddy is, they're dangerous and have a reptile fetish" while the Warlock being how a Ravenclaw(Wizard)   describes a slytherin " they're cheaters and thieves, allways taking the easy way out, they wield magic too dark".
@sciborg3: If you're evoking "real" magic - then arcane casters don't exist at all. Even "High Magic" deals with consorting with spiritual entities on some level. 

Secular mages do not exist in real occultism.

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So - to that end, secular mages is too restricting and I demand that "Caster" be the only signifier to classes with the ability to do blantantly fictional things and "Ability" be the only signifier to what they can do... so I can state whether my mages are consorting with creatures... or practicing "dynamic science".

This argument about "forced fluff" is silly... what if I want neither Dungeons... nor Dragons in my D&D game? Would you (and rightly) say - "this game might not be for you?" 

So it is with all their decisions if they mean that much to you.

I tossed 4th Edition because of their decision for grids... but I didn't suggest WotC was "stupid" for doing it as if I have "The Codex to Right" sitting next to me.  

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It seems to me that people are thinking that "Draconic Heritage" will be the only one for sorcerers.

True - it's the only one available... but the text says "when you choose this heritage" - suggesting you don't have to.

Make up your own heritage - sorcerers have alway been born with magic from some source... make it "The Moon" or "Gamma Rays" or "Spinach" who cares...  
This argument about "forced fluff" is silly... what if I want neither Dungeons... nor Dragons in my D&D game? Would you (and rightly) say - "this game might not be for you?"


That argument doesn't compare well. If you were to say that you wanted dragons, but not the way they are described in the Monster Manual, that would be the same. As it is it does not pertain to this discussion because no one is saying that they want the ability to not include Sorcerers and Warlocks, they want the default flavor to be more open to interpretation.

And for the record, I wouldn't say the game isn't for you if you don't want dungeons or dragons in your game. I'd just say that you shouldn't put them in your game, because that works fine. I rarely include dragons in my games and dungeons are few and far between. Unless you count ruins and deserted cities and palaces made of clouds as dungeons, but that's a really broad use of the word that could apply to damn near anything at that point.

Reading the various posts about this topic, the 'No forced flavor' people just seem to be saying "Describe these classes in broad terms, that can be interpreted differently depending on who is reading it."

The Sorcerer uses and internal source of magic, give examples of what that source could be. That could be easily reflavored as a Wizard by just saying the guy is just a natural prodigy or has to study to control his natural ability.

The Warlock learns how to use magic through contact with supernatural beings. You don't even need to tie pacts to it, maybe you just want to play it as a Wizard whose mentor is an exiled Fey spirit. Her magic is slightly different from traditional Wizards because she's learning from a different school. Being forced to sacrifice your soul just because you don't want to go Vancian is fairly extreme. Lets treat it as what it is: a different way to explore arcane magic.

The classes can have baked in flavor, but leaving it open allows it to serve as inspiration without constraining creativity.

And seriously, never tell someone they can't play D&D without including dungeons and dragons. The game is much deeper than just its name.