Sorcerer is Gish?

Draconic Heritage allows casting in full armor as well as all armor and martial weapon proficiencies. Wow.
Even less of a non-Vancian wizard substitute
...whatever
That was my first thought.

Also, I can't seem to figure out what grants access to the Dragon Breath power. I am guessing I just missed it in my first quick read through.

Just now DLing the update so haven't read it yet, but that actually sounds pretty right. Them most broken character I (accidentally) made in 3.5 was a sorcerer + monk gish. Fly + greater blink + pounce from IDK where + that feat where…. It was bad let's leave it at that.

But overall, it taught me that Sorcerer in 3.5 made a beautiful gish.

I know Sorcerer/Other class made the best gish, the thing is now is that you don't need to multi-class.
Even less of a non-Vancian wizard substitute



Hopefully, they will have spell points and invocations (ala these versions of the Sorcerer and Warlock) as Wizard options/modules.
That was my first thought.

Also, I can't seem to figure out what grants access to the Dragon Breath power. I am guessing I just missed it in my first quick read through.



I don't see where you get it either. I also don't see how much Willpower it will cost.
One option for a sorcerer is Gish.

This is a good thing, yes?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
One option for a sorcerer is Gish.

This is a good thing, yes?



I would very much like this Dragon Sorcerer, if it wasn't Cha primary (I guess I could just bump Con and Strength, then be bad at my spells?). Always though Sorcerer power from bloodline would make more sense as a Con thing...
One option for a sorcerer is Gish.

This is a good thing, yes?



True, and true
He's feeling it about D&DN so it's totally justified, because those that played 3e didn't have any expectation that the next edition would at least reasonably resemble or take into account their play style where as Wotc promised him they would make the game exactly how he wanted it.

Silly person ;)

Nah, in reality I feel his dismay...just as I got the dismay of all those 3e fans that saw 4e and felt dismay. Ultimately though, for either side at either time, just kind of pouting isn't going to help anything but I guess it may be cathartic to some...in which case, I guess more power to them.
I just wish Sorcerer and Warlock had debuted with two options each, same way as cleric in both packets and rogue in this one.

I have confidence that (at least) one Sorc bloodline will approximate a "Wizard" experience, and I give it 50/50 odds that there's at least one pact for warlocks that evokes a wizardly feel.  Of course, We can't really say this exists until we see it...

As far as the current Dragon sorcerer goes... I find it interesting, especially with how the Sorcerer sort of transforms over the day (I had flashbacks to Laguz units in FE 9/10 when reading it over... it's inaccurate, but it's what I remembered.)

Getting these new classes really put a lot of meat onto packet 2 that it needed.

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Well something to remember about the wizard in next is that a great portion of its bookish feel comes from the sage background.

I can see either of these systems being easily used as a wizard.

The warlock's fluff is a bit dark but from a pure mechanical standpoint I don't see a real concern with it.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

I like this sorc. I don't know how the dragon's breath works either.
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I get the feeling that, like the mention of additional feats at levels 6 and 9, the playtest packet has a few bits of wording meant for higher levels than we currently have.  I figure, given the power, that Dragon Breath's the equivalent of a level 3 spell - and as such probably shows up at level 6 or 7.  Fun preview, though.

Unfortunately, I am now unable to look at the current Sorcerer option without geting Skyrim's 'One They Fear' stuck in my head.  Know my suffering, and share in it.  (This is not a complaint, and there's several ways to use even this one option - it's just that this is one of them.)
From a mechanic standpoint both classes looks funny to play. From a flavour point of vew they are awsome. I can't wait to see more options for pacts and heritages! I'm sure we will se some heritage more spellcasting centered than draconic one, can't wait to see them. Oh, and I want to see the bard!
I am disapointed, it's reversed of what i spected, sorcerer is usually caster than gish, and warlock is usually more gish than full caster, at least on 3.5 and 4e =V

I dislike the fact that warlock pacts force RP/flavor designated by it 
I am disapointed, it's reversed of what i spected, sorcerer is usually caster than gish, and warlock is usually more gish than full caster, at least on 3.5 and 4e =V

I dislike the fact that warlock pacts force RP/flavor designated by it 




I'm actually looking to strip the flavor later this weekend.  Ill see what I can do to strip the flavor and reflavor it to something else.  I am at work and don't have time to readi t yet
 
I have confidence that (at least) one Sorc bloodline will approximate a "Wizard" experience, and I give it 50/50 odds that there's at least one pact for warlocks that evokes a wizardly feel.  Of course, We can't really say this exists until we see it...

Hopefully if they release a "Wizard" bloodline they'll do something about that delayed spell progression and tiny spell list.

That was my first thought.

Also, I can't seem to figure out what grants access to the Dragon Breath power. I am guessing I just missed it in my first quick read through.

Probably a level 6-7 feature they forgot to delete.

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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I'm sorry, this is probably a stupid question, but what in the world is everybody talking about? Where is this sorcerer? Is there a link or something? Because I don't see it anywhere on the website...

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
I'm sorry, this is probably a stupid question, but what in the world is everybody talking about? Where is this sorcerer? Is there a link or something? Because I don't see it anywhere on the website...



The packet has had the Sorc and 'Lock added to it, with an adventure.  Re-DL it.

"Lightning...it flashes bright, then fades away.  It can't protect, it can only destroy."

I'm sorry, this is probably a stupid question, but what in the world is everybody talking about? Where is this sorcerer? Is there a link or something? Because I don't see it anywhere on the website...



CrimsonC,


They added these two classes to the package so you have to re-download the entire package.  They also added a full adventure for 2nd package.    

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Was... was there an announcement for this? I feel like everybody's talking about it all nonchalant like it's no big deal, and I'm like "WTF is going on?".

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Was... was there an announcement for this? I feel like everybody's talking about it all nonchalant like it's no big deal, and I'm like "WTF is going on?".



The announcement was during the Keynote Address at Gencon last night. Most people were watching the live stream (or were there, or saw a recorded version later) and were expecting it.
Okay, that's somehow acceptable, I guess.
Thanks for the info. =P

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
I saw a mention of it on the main D&D Next page - not under articles, but the description of the packet mentions Sorcerer and Warlock now.  Personally I'd appreciate notice-via-email, since we've given the addresses anyway for survey purposes, but this works I suppose.
Fully agree with Nelyo on that respect. The delayed spell progression and tiny number of spells known makes the sorcerer look as strung up as they were in 3.x compared to Wizards, and that paltry spell list makes things only that much worse.

Ignoring that, the Dragon bloodline looks a bit MAD at the moment for offense. But between heavy armor, the shield spell, mirror image, resistance, and the dragon scales power and feature, it does look like it's the class to go to for self preservation, and you can do all that without investing in Charisma. I'm just not sure whether "self preservation" is too niche to be a good thing.

I am disapointed, it's reversed of what i spected, sorcerer is usually caster than gish, and warlock is usually more gish than full caster, at least on 3.5 and 4e =V

I dislike the fact that warlock pacts force RP/flavor designated by it 




dude you can entirely reflavor all of the warlock stuff so easily.  Heck with reflavoring and a casting stat reassignment you can easily make him a bookish wizard type of character based on int.  There is some reflavoring that needs to happen but it can be done easily.
also, it's entirely possible that they're giving each caster one casting style during the playtest, but will give them all the choice of the three

they did mention they were fiddling with how to make wizard encounter spells, sure sounds like they're making a way to have a wizard with what is currently the warlock casting style
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
the changing stats thing is sort of a non-solution though, or at least its DM dependant


I would allow it no problem, but I could see some sticklers or people who may worry about balance ect.
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Crimson, you arent the only one!
also, it's entirely possible that they're giving each caster one casting style during the playtest, but will give them all the choice of the three

they did mention they were fiddling with how to make wizard encounter spells, sure sounds like they're making a way to have a wizard with what is currently the warlock casting style



I see that as less possible... the class features such as the pacts and bloodlines are to laced into the explicit casting style, and the wizard traditions whenever they come out will likely be seeded within vancian casting.  This was the goal.  By making the classes have one casting style they can make hese features mesh into it the way they have.

the changing stats thing is sort of a non-solution though, or at least its DM dependant


I would allow it no problem, but I could see some sticklers or people who may worry about balance ect.




I really, really hope they put it in as a guideline in the books.  So far it's a completely harmless change in this edition.  Changing the casting stat changes nothing but what skills you will be good at outside of casting which if you were to play the class your trying to emulate by changing your casting stat you would be good at anyways.  It doesn't mess with any kind of secondary rider effects or anything.  All it does is say I want to be bookish rather than charasmatic...Boom change cast stat and move on.  Reflavor, give correct background, and speciality and you're a classical trope tastic wizard, you just used the warlock class to get there because you like its casting style more.
I agree Sleeps.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

Indeed the warlock is quite "re-fluff-able". The sorcerer, not so much. Unless you find a way to explain why your wizard suddenly grows claws >.<
also, it's entirely possible that they're giving each caster one casting style during the playtest, but will give them all the choice of the three

they did mention they were fiddling with how to make wizard encounter spells, sure sounds like they're making a way to have a wizard with what is currently the warlock casting style



I see that as less possible... the class features such as the pacts and bloodlines are to laced into the explicit casting style, and the wizard traditions whenever they come out will likely be seeded within vancian casting.  This was the goal.  By making the classes have one casting style they can make hese features mesh into it the way they have.


Not really, though.

Let's take the sorcerer, and "wizardify" it:

Class features are still class features.  Bloodline abilities are specified in terms of points - okay, now instead of being points, they're a nth-level spell.  Replace the point progression and spells known with spells-per-day and spellbook.  What features no longer mesh?

Now, I get your point.  Doing this would be pretty hard if you designed all three in a vacuum.  But if they're designed with interchangeability in mind, then it's a much simpler procedure and could be included in a few paragraphs in a sidebar.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Changing the casting stat also changes which effects you can resist.  If we're using Charisma to resist fear effects, Wisdom against illusions, and Intelligence against mind control, then it could have a strong impact on how those effects resolve. 

Of course, as it stands, I seem to recall that Wisdom saves vastly out-number the other two, so if given the choice from a purely mechanical perspective, it would be foolish to cast from Int or Cha.
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Valien,

Perhaps the claws are not physical but rather an aura of arcane energy that allows the wizard to rend flesh with his bare hands.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

Since the claws aren't even used as weapons, but rather simply grant a damage bonus, I think we can treat it pretty much however we want.

The dragon's "claws" seem to be somewhat metaphorical in this instance.
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I like this Sorcerer option. It's certainly different from the 3.x/PF Sorcerer.