The Silence Spell is back, seriously?

The Silence Spell is back. It blocks casters from casting spells, with no saving throw. Is that really the game we want to be playing?

I remember the war of Silence spells I had back in one of those SSI gold box computer games.

If you bring back Silence, you have to also bring back the fact that each spell has Verbal, Somatic, and Material components or metamagic feats that allow you to cast Dispel Magic without the verbal component.

Would it work better for you if it summoned a dead magic zone that just happened to nullify sound as well?
The Silence Spell is back. It blocks casters from casting spells, with no saving throw. Is that really the game we want to be playing?


It blocks casters if there is a way to prevent the caster from moving 20 feet.  In a game where the Dark Priest's Inflict Moderate Wounds could drop a 3rd level wizard, she may be happy to only be the target of Silence.
I haven't looked at the spells closely but I thought it was already mentioned that spells involved hand movements, voices, etc etc.  At least I know in the sorcerer/warlock test packet they make mention of abilities in both classes that specifically don't involve such things.

But hey, could be wrong considering I haven't paid much attention to spells in any of the packets.  But either way, don't really see what the big deal is about a silence spell.  They're silenced, yeah it sucks.  Sucks nearly as much as a fighter without weapons, or a fighter chained up unable to move. 
I haven't looked at the spells closely but I thought it was already mentioned that spells involved hand movements, voices, etc etc.  At least I know in the sorcerer/warlock test packet they make mention of abilities in both classes that specifically don't involve such things.
 



It is in the How to Play chapter on Magic.  Unless the spell says otherwise, they all require somatic and verbal components.
Warlock Invocations function like spells, but don't have somatic components.
Sorcerous Powers function like spells, but don't have verbal or somatic components, and aren't effected by spell disruption.

This suggests Warlock Invocations are blocked by Silence and by Spell Disruption, and that both Warlock Invocations and Sorcerous Powers, along with normal Spells, are effected by Dispel Magic.

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

Yeah, not a big fan here either.  First of all, the "spellcasters are ineffective" bit is in the flavor text, and rules effects should never be there.  Second, there's no save, no way of avoiding it.  Casters are just shut down.  Combine with something like Web or Grease, and a fighter in melee ASAP, and it's pretty much an "I Win" button against casters.

"Edison didn't succeed the first time he invented Benjamin Franklin, either." Albert the Alligator, Walt Kelly's Pogo Sunday Book  
The Core Coliseum: test out your 4e builds and fight to the death.

Yeah, not a big fan here either.  First of all, the "spellcasters are ineffective" bit is in the flavor text, and rules effects should never be there.  Second, there's no save, no way of avoiding it.  Casters are just shut down.  Combine with something like Web or Grease, and a fighter in melee ASAP, and it's pretty much an "I Win" button against casters.




i like the spell, it should just have a save.
i like the spell, it should just have a save.

It doesn't have a save because it doesn't target a character.  If you don't like the effect, simply leave the zone.

If your position is that the official rules don't matter, or that house rules can fix everything, please don't bother posting in forums about the official rules. To do so is a waste of everyone's time.
i like the spell, it should just have a save.

It doesn't have a save because it doesn't target a character.  If you don't like the effect, simply leave the zone.



stinking cloud doesn't target a character, it has a save
web doesn't tarket a character, it has a save
thunder wave doesn't target a character it has a save
burning hands, flaming sphere, grease

in fact MOST area of effect spells have a save, so i fail to see that as a valid argument.
But the silence spell doesn't effect *you* just the area around you. You can still talk, just none of the vibrations make any noise. The area can be dispelled, and it doesn't stop you from moving at all. Idk, I don't think silence should have a saving throw.
But the silence spell doesn't effect *you* just the area around you. You can still talk, just none of the vibrations make any noise. The area can be dispelled, and it doesn't stop you from moving at all. Idk, I don't think silence should have a saving throw.

If you're still talking, then your spells should still work.  Only if the silence affects you, directly, should the verbal components not even happen.

It's like Transmute Water to Dust.  Cast it on a pool of water someone is swimming in, no save.  Cast it on a person to turn the fluids in their body to dust, save.  So if Silence prevents even your larynx from vibrating, it should allow a save.

Of course, the idea that silence stops somatic components begs some questions about physics.  Who or what has to be able to "hear" the words for them to be effective?

"Edison didn't succeed the first time he invented Benjamin Franklin, either." Albert the Alligator, Walt Kelly's Pogo Sunday Book  
The Core Coliseum: test out your 4e builds and fight to the death.

Actually, I guess that is a good point. Okay, saving throw it is.
The Silence Spell is back. It blocks casters from casting spells, with no saving throw. Is that really the game we want to be playing?



It can't be targetted on a person, so it won't move. All you have to do is move out of the silence zone, or find a way to herd the priest who cast it into the silence zone.

I'd prefer "have to leave the zone", no save.  If it ends up being broken as is, lower the area to 10 ft radius.

Silence doesn't prevent any magic from working in the area, just no casting from within it.  You have to target a point in space, and can't center the effect on a creature (so that it moves with it.  It's not some kind of  "mage killer"  The wizard can step outside the area and cast from there.  Damaging spells can still enter the silenced area and hurt the people within it (but no one will hear them scream Wink ).

Seriously, it's a valid tactic for battlefield control.  As someone who greatly enjoyed playing wizards in 3.x, I loved forcing enemy movement.  When YOU control where an enemy can't (or won't) go on a battlefield, you're in charge. 

No need to lower the radius, everyone can move at least 25' in a round AND take another action, so regardless of where the spell is centred, you can still get out of it and do something in that round. 


On the other hand, broken would be being able to cast it on a person, and instead of casting it on an enemey, target it at an ally (the Rogue) who can sneak around and constantly follow the spellcasters.

The strange thing is the Silence spell in the first playtest allowed people within it to make a DC 15 Intelligence check to cast spells. I wonder why they took that out.
The strange thing is the Silence spell in the first playtest allowed people within it to make a DC 15 Intelligence check to cast spells. I wonder why they took that out.



In order to have a superman Wizard you have to have a cryptonite...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Silence is broken. People keep saying "just move out of the zone". What if that zone consumes the entire combat area?
Silence is broken. People keep saying "just move out of the zone". What if that zone consumes the entire combat area?

Drop portcullisses behind your players much?

Seriously, if the PCs are trapped in that kind of encounter, then you as the DM need to be able to design it so they won't have to depend on spellcasters, or give them a way out. Maybe drop monsters into the arena in smaller numbers?
Silence is broken. People keep saying "just move out of the zone". What if that zone consumes the entire combat area?

Drop portcullisses behind your players much?

Seriously, if the PCs are trapped in that kind of encounter, then you as the DM need to be able to design it so they won't have to depend on spellcasters, or give them a way out. Maybe drop monsters into the arena in smaller numbers?



Who said anything about me designing the encounter? There will be adventures released I believe, and in 3e, every area was too small. Sure a DM can make them bigger, but then has to change the entire map and all the encounter areas. Outdoors, it won't matter much.

I just don't like the spell to be honest.

Who said anything about me designing the encounter? There will be adventures released I believe, and in 3e, every area was too small. Sure a DM can make them bigger, but then has to change the entire map and all the encounter areas. Outdoors, it won't matter much.

I just don't like the spell to be honest.


I hope the latter statement is the more meaningful of the two. If you don't like it then don't use it. I can't address the top without you probably seeing it as a personal attack, since it suggests a lot about your character as a person and a DM.
Feel free, I won't report. If that's going to make you feel better.
Silence is broken. People keep saying "just move out of the zone". What if that zone consumes the entire combat area?

Drop portcullisses behind your players much?

Seriously, if the PCs are trapped in that kind of encounter, then you as the DM need to be able to design it so they won't have to depend on spellcasters, or give them a way out. Maybe drop monsters into the arena in smaller numbers?



Who said anything about me designing the encounter? There will be adventures released I believe, and in 3e, every area was too small. Sure a DM can make them bigger, but then has to change the entire map and all the encounter areas. Outdoors, it won't matter much.

I just don't like the spell to be honest.




And sometimes the fighter might get disarmed, sometimes there wont be any cover or concealment for the rogue to hide behind.  There should be encounters where certain characters can't use their abilities and they have to find a way to survive without them even if it is to avoid combat as best they can while their comrades handle the battle.  I like this spell and I'd like more mundane methods of shutting down magic as well, there are a lot of ways to magically shut down the mundane after all.  
They put disarm in the packet? Didn't see that.
They put disarm in the packet? Didn't see that.



No, but it would be easy to improvise.  My point was more for every contained room where you can't move 20' to get out of the AoE there is a place where they make you check your weapons at the door or peace bond them.  And we all know disarm will be in the game eventually, anything that is something a normal person can do in a fight will be able to be done.  
In order to disarm a fighter, you have to succed at some kind of check (at least, that's how it's always worked in the past and I can't imagine it working any differently in this edition). Additionally, if a fighter is disarmed he can still fight unarmed, draw another weapon or pick up the disarmed weapon.

No check is required to shut down a wizard with silence. And a wizard can't draw another item to regain the ability to cast spells or cast somewhat less effective spells instead. The only option he has is to flee the area. There's no comparison with this and disarming at all.

At least in 3.x there was the silent spell metamagic and silent spell rods. We have no such option in 5e yet. Unless and until we do, Silence is a broken spell. 
They put disarm in the packet? Didn't see that.



No, but it would be easy to improvise.  My point was more for every contained room where you can't move 20' to get out of the AoE there is a place where they make you check your weapons at the door or peace bond them.  And we all know disarm will be in the game eventually, anything that is something a normal person can do in a fight will be able to be done.  



That's 20' radius meaning if you are on the wrong end of the room you have to move 40' to get out of it...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
That's 20' radius meaning if you are on the wrong end of the room you have to move 40' to get out of it...

Or back out the door into the hallway, taking the short way out of the Silence AOE, and if necessary having the melee types reposition themselves to give the spellcasters outside the door a clear shot?

Edit: Oh Noes! The Bone Chicken casts Silence on the square marked X ! Now the entire chamber is Silenced and Evil Ash can't cast a spell to smite it with skeletal fury!

IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/darth_giles/Dungeon%20Tiles/IMG_0874.jpg)

Evil Ash decides to fall back into the corridor, beyond the reach of the silence spell.

IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/darth_giles/Dungeon%20Tiles/IMG_0875.jpg) 

See what I mean by encounter design? If you know there's a monster with Silence, then you as a DM need to make sure that the PCs have a way to deal with it, which might include falling back a ways.
That's 20' radius meaning if you are on the wrong end of the room you have to move 40' to get out of it...

Or back out the door into the hallway, taking the short way out of the Silence AOE, and if necessary having the melee types reposition themselves to give the spellcasters outside the door a clear shot?

Edit: Oh Noes! The Bone Chicken casts Silence on the square marked X ! Now the entire chamber is Silenced and Evil Ash can't cast a spell to smite it with skeletal fury!



Evil Ash decides to fall back into the corridor, beyond the reach of the silence spell.

 

See what I mean by encounter design? If you know there's a monster with Silence, then you as a DM need to make sure that the PCs have a way to deal with it, which might include falling back a ways.



Yeah... see when you say the DM needs to do something that requires a special setup you are talking the "A good DM..." fallacy. As it is the DM is required to do quadratic probability equations in their head as well as Rock, Paper, Scissors with the casters as well as give the figher something to hit, while keeping from targeting low hit point characters, while creating an engaging story, while moving the plot forward, while...

You get the point. They just keep piling stuff on the DM, that means no new DMs and Mediocre DMs won't be able to run the game...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.

See what I mean by encounter design? If you know there's a monster with Silence, then you as a DM need to make sure that the PCs have a way to deal with it, which might include falling back a ways.



Why wouldn't that monster then move out of line of sight from the caster? Its obviously got some intelligence or wisdom to be able to use silence to begin with. Why would it then stand there and let the caster circumvent the whole reason for the silence effect in the first place? To stop the caster from harming it.



Why wouldn't that monster then move out of line of sight from the caster? Its obviously got some intelligence or wisdom to be able to use silence to begin with. Why would it then stand there and let the caster circumvent the whole reason for the silence effect in the first place? To stop the caster from harming it.


That was the only terrain piece I had on hand. Its not the best example of encounter design, but you were supposed to get the idea instead of quibbling about LOS. Every single one of you complaining about Silence is acting like the PCs are going to be fighting in an arena setting with no way to get out of the AOE other than crossing the whole area.
The problem 603 is that your saying look there are plenty of situations where this spell isn't broken, and thats true. Hell it may even be true the vast majority of the time, however it isnt hard at all to come up with situations where silence with no mitigating mechanic can completly screw casters. 

-All exits from the area are blocked
-caster mobility is impared through a spell or effect
-Accompanied by other monsters/melee combatants that attack and prevent anyone from getting out of the area

One of the biggest problems about saying "just leave the area" is that it ignores all of the many many situations that can prevent someone from doing that.

That's 20' radius meaning if you are on the wrong end of the room you have to move 40' to get out of it...

Or back out the door into the hallway, taking the short way out of the Silence AOE, and if necessary having the melee types reposition themselves to give the spellcasters outside the door a clear shot?

Edit: Oh Noes! The Bone Chicken casts Silence on the square marked X ! Now the entire chamber is Silenced and Evil Ash can't cast a spell to smite it with skeletal fury!



Evil Ash decides to fall back into the corridor, beyond the reach of the silence spell.

 

See what I mean by encounter design? If you know there's a monster with Silence, then you as a DM need to make sure that the PCs have a way to deal with it, which might include falling back a ways.



I have one additional problem with this. I've played a spellcaster, it was 4e, and after that expeirence I would never do what your pictures suggest. Why? Because after backing out of that room your wizard is alone in a hallway, where monsters may come from either direction and he would be squashed like a bug. Should the GM do this, probably not, should the player know the GM probably won't do this and therefore follow through with their movement. Defintely not, even in 4e I'd say wizards and other spellcasters don't have the HP to break away from the party. I know, I was forced by bad die rolls, unhelpful party members, and a clever GM into just that situation. It didn't end well for me

Long point short, with just respect to your arguement, a wizard moving away from the fight also means moving away from his allies, and with barely a handful of hit points that is a major risk. Do I think silence should be taken out? No. Give it a save? Sure, it would still be dangerous, but it would give the player a better option than just "run away"
That's 20' radius meaning if you are on the wrong end of the room you have to move 40' to get out of it...

Or back out the door into the hallway, taking the short way out of the Silence AOE, and if necessary having the melee types reposition themselves to give the spellcasters outside the door a clear shot?

Edit: Oh Noes! The Bone Chicken casts Silence on the square marked X ! Now the entire chamber is Silenced and Evil Ash can't cast a spell to smite it with skeletal fury!



Evil Ash decides to fall back into the corridor, beyond the reach of the silence spell.

 

See what I mean by encounter design? If you know there's a monster with Silence, then you as a DM need to make sure that the PCs have a way to deal with it, which might include falling back a ways.



Yeah... see when you say the DM needs to do something that requires a special setup you are talking the "A good DM..." fallacy. As it is the DM is required to do quadratic probability equations in their head as well as Rock, Paper, Scissors with the casters as well as give the figher something to hit, while keeping from targeting low hit point characters, while creating an engaging story, while moving the plot forward, while...

You get the point. They just keep piling stuff on the DM, that means no new DMs and Mediocre DMs won't be able to run the game...



Oh, come on, now.   Sure, a new DM might err by making an encounter too tough, but do we have to design for the lowest common denominator?

I *do* think tactics hints/warnings should be given for stuff like Silence and Medusas.  I don't think we should purposely design kid gloves onto the DM's hands.

The new DM may make mistakes, but that's why he's new! He'll learn and get better and make less mistakes.

Sometimes these mistakes become awesome story elements, too... always look for a way to turn a negative into a positive. 
Put another way -- the DM can always (through inexperience, or hostility, or intentional difficulty, or just plain making a mistake) design an encounter or create a situation where PCs get hosed.  I don't think the solution is to make it so that Silence doesn't silence, Medusa's don't petrify, or that giants/ogres don't do lots of damage with melee hits.


Why wouldn't that monster then move out of line of sight from the caster? Its obviously got some intelligence or wisdom to be able to use silence to begin with. Why would it then stand there and let the caster circumvent the whole reason for the silence effect in the first place? To stop the caster from harming it.


That was the only terrain piece I had on hand. Its not the best example of encounter design, but you were supposed to get the idea instead of quibbling about LOS. Every single one of you complaining about Silence is acting like the PCs are going to be fighting in an arena setting with no way to get out of the AOE other than crossing the whole area.



You present a scenario, I present a counter.
Oh, come on, now.   Sure, a new DM might err by making an encounter too tough, but do we have to design for the lowest common denominator?


On the other hand however, DM shouldn't be like a full-time job, since if it is, it makes it much ahrder for new DMs to start up, and in today's society, you know that is simply not going to fly. For the msot part if theyc an't work it out in a few hours, they're just not going to bother.

And personally speaking as a new DM myself(well, tried a few one-shots, designing a full-ish campaign atm), I'm already taking long enough as it is making a a 4e campaign. I can barely do college algerba(math is not my strong subject), much less do the kind of three-ring circus of math required to houserule a game into being balanced. I'm already taking long enough to design the areas and what sort of monsters and people would be there, and what kind of intracite plots are taking place there, long enough without also having to shield every plot thread, villain, and monster from the 50 different ways a Wizard can break the game over it's back.

If 5e isn't at least as simple to DM as 4e is, then there is just simply no way I'll ever be DMing it.
Oh, come on, now.   Sure, a new DM might err by making an encounter too tough, but do we have to design for the lowest common denominator?


On the other hand however, DM shouldn't be like a full-time job, since if it is, it makes it much ahrder for new DMs to start up, and in today's society, you know that is simply not going to fly. For the msot part if theyc an't work it out in a few hours, they're just not going to bother.

And personally speaking as a new DM myself(well, tried a few one-shots, designing a full-ish campaign atm), I'm already taking long enough as it is making a a 4e campaign. I can barely do college algerba(math is not my strong subject), much less do the kind of three-ring circus of math required to houserule a game into being balanced. I'm already taking long enough to design the areas and what sort of monsters and people would be there, and what kind of intracite plots are taking place there, long enough without also having to shield every plot thread, villain, and monster from the 50 different ways a Wizard can break the game over it's back.

If 5e isn't at least as simple to DM as 4e is, then there is just simply no way I'll ever be DMing it.



I love how easy 4E made it to budget encounters, and I hope 5E keeps it.  But we're not talking about math, we're talking about things like "don't drop a save-vs-petrification monster without warning" and "don't hose the party with Silence without any sort of recourse" and "don't put a brute in a tiny room with no escape from its reach."  That's not math, that's just stuff that you learn as you DM.  

"don't hose the party with Silence without any sort of recourse"

Well why not? Why is it so freaking bad if a wizard is without his spells for a moment. He's got his staff, or a crossbow, right? Part of the balance in a wizard vs everyone else is that there are means to take away his spells. So what if the wizard can't be a powerhouse this time. A melee fighter has no real recourse vs a flying monster either, unless he pulls out a bow he doesn't usually use. So should we not design flying monsters? And in an open field with good lighting, a rogue will have a hell of a time trying to get his sneak attack. So what? So there are role-playing and story-organic reasons why a rogue or a fighter may not be as effective as they could be but the wizard, well don't you dare step on the wizard?
"don't hose the party with Silence without any sort of recourse"

Well why not? Why is it so freaking bad if a wizard is without his spells for a moment. He's got his staff, or a crossbow, right? Part of the balance in a wizard vs everyone else is that there are means to take away his spells. So what if the wizard can't be a powerhouse this time. A melee fighter has no real recourse vs a flying monster either, unless he pulls out a bow he doesn't usually use. So should we not design flying monsters? And in an open field with good lighting, a rogue will have a hell of a time trying to get his sneak attack. So what? So there are role-playing and story-organic reasons why a rogue or a fighter may not be as effective as they could be but the wizard, well don't you dare step on the wizard?





I like it! I'd definitely be down with it.  But these guidelines are more for groups that find any sort of temporary PC-hosing by default "bad," such as the premise of this post.  If they hate it so much that it ruins the game, then use the abilities with care.  Leave them to us folks who enjoy the masochistic challenge of being weak sometimes.
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