Starting Hit Points: too few, fine or ?

concerning second playest package

I didn't see any recent discussion about starting hit points in the latest threads.
just curious about you see the new starting hit points reduction.

I've to admit that things are bit more difficult than before for my players to manage this new small pool.
many had to use the dodge action to get the +4 ac and reflexes more that they thought (suprisingly this has not slowed down the combat and increased the tension !).

should they be slightly more at starting (in a range 14-25) ?
or do you think the lowers HP are better (to stress a bit more on healings and defense) ? 

what do you think ?
It would be nice if every class could take at least 1 hit.  Right now, at 6 HP, a goblin can 1-shot the wizard.

If we assume a level 1 creatures will do 1d8+2, then 11 should be the absolute minimum.  So yea... 14-25 sounds about right.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Right now, at 6 HP, a goblin can 1-shot the wizard.

I may be in the minority, but I'm fine with this.  It's very much a 1E flavor where first level characters aren't supposed to be all that special and it's not uncommon for them to die (especially the wizards: high risk with high reward as they end up being very powerful at high levels). As I've said in other threads, it's why I like the fact that character generation is so easy because if your character dies you can roll up a new one and get back in the game in about half an hour.

Right now, at 6 HP, a goblin can 1-shot the wizard.

I may be in the minority, but I'm fine with this.  It's very much a 1E flavor where first level characters aren't supposed to be all that special and it's not uncommon for them to die (especially the wizards: high risk with high reward as they end up being very powerful at high levels). As I've said in other threads, it's why I like the fact that character generation is so easy because if your character dies you can roll up a new one and get back in the game in about half an hour.


I could agree in part with ravenfire.

tell that to a group of "simple" players where the major thing that matters is having fun and adventure through a story. unless very bad luck, or a mighty foe comes in play, I don't want them to reroll characters because a goblin had a single lucky roll on the poor newby mage.

hope you get my point : ) 

I introduced and interested in D&D more players in 4e that I had never with previous. that doesn't mean it's a good system for every player-style, it's a system however that helped me to have more fun with friends.

they should make an option module out of this ? HP - hard mode, easy mode ?
at this time, I'd say this would save my players (at first levels at least) 
I don't want them to reroll characters because a goblin had a single lucky roll on the poor newby mage.

hope you get my point : )

they should make an option module out of this ? HP - hard mode, easy mode ?
at this time, I'd say this would save my players (at first levels at least) 

I get your point and I like the idea of hard/easy mode (although I'm thinking that's a place for house rules).  But I would also say that some of my best memories from back when I played 1E in the early 80s were funny low-level character deaths. We laughed for weeks after a 2nd level druid got killed by a gaint weasel.  Another time, a cocky paladin led the charge into a cave of kobolds and got dropped by a crit from one with a crossbow on the first turn.  The thief sets off the trapped chest instead of disarming it, you get the picture.
This is probably why we all ran 2 player characters in our games...

I don't want them to reroll characters because a goblin had a single lucky roll on the poor newby mage.

hope you get my point : )

they should make an option module out of this ? HP - hard mode, easy mode ?
at this time, I'd say this would save my players (at first levels at least) 

I get your point and I like the idea of hard/easy mode (although I'm thinking that's a place for house rules).  But I would also say that some of my best memories from back when I played 1E in the early 80s were funny low-level character deaths. We laughed for weeks after a 2nd level druid got killed by a gaint weasel.  Another time, a cocky paladin led the charge into a cave of kobolds and got dropped by a crit from one with a crossbow on the first turn.  The thief sets off the trapped chest instead of disarming it, you get the picture.
This is probably why we all ran 2 player characters in our games...

My first D&D game ever, i spent an hour putting my character together, and comming up with a backstory, personality, ect..  I died to the very first attack.

I didn't play again for years (until 4e).


So no, i don't think "hard mode" should be the default.  And option, sure.  Add something like "Charcters get minimum on their HP die roll.  Suggest that they don't waste time nameing them because they are likely to die."

Wizards being able to survive 1 hit, (and fighters about 3 hits) is a good middle ground.

And of course, a heroic option, where wizards survive 2 hits.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

My first D&D game ever, i spent an hour putting my character together, and comming up with a backstory, personality, ect..  I died to the very first attack.



So no, i don't think "hard mode" should be the default.  And option, sure.

We never spent a lot of time on backstory and personality.  Those were things that developed during the adventures.  The events of the play sessions became the characters' histories (which is much more organic in nature) and their actions led to their personalities.

"Hard mode" = rolling for hit points at level 1 instead of getting max.
My first D&D game ever, i spent an hour putting my character together, and comming up with a backstory, personality, ect..  I died to the very first attack.



So no, i don't think "hard mode" should be the default.  And option, sure.

We never spent a lot of time on backstory and personality.  Those were things that developed during the adventures.  The events of the play sessions became the characters' histories (which is much more organic in nature) and their actions led to their personalities.

"Hard mode" = rolling for hit points at level 1 instead of getting max.

Nah.

"hard mode" = minimum hit points
"normal" = rolling hit points
"normal 2" = average hit points
"easy" = max hit points

Though i will revise my previous thought.  Surviving 1 hit means you need 9 HP minimum.

So...
Con score + 1 HD roll = 9 for a 8 con wizard.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

We never spent a lot of time on backstory and personality.



Unfortunately, my players do. And further develop them with play.

Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid

Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade.

"Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall,

"But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all." -Kipling

 

Miss d20 Modern? Take a look at Dias Ex Machina Game's UltraModern 4e!

 

57019168 wrote:
I am a hero, not a chump.
Two page discussion on this topic on this thread

community.wizards.com/dndnext/go/thread/...
 
"We are men of action, lies do not become us" ~ D.P.R.
Too few.
 (suprisingly this has not slowed down the combat and increased the tension !). 



Increased tension is expected.. not slowing down combat is ummmm buffalo poo from a mathematical truth perspective.
All out defense ie Dodge slows down play as you didnt make an attack to end the fight sooner, even having the option to chose it slows down things ;p as the more options somebody is juggling the longer there turn is likely to be. The question is always whether you like the options and whether the tension for you is a positive thing.. or if tension is to similar to the thing you are bashing goblins to avoid.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

My first D&D game ever, i spent an hour putting my character together, and comming up with a backstory, personality, ect..  I died to the very first attack.



So no, i don't think "hard mode" should be the default.  And option, sure.

We never spent a lot of time on backstory and personality. 



Since the game was designed in a way that discouraged it I am not suprised.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Yeah, the hitpoint topic has been discussed quite a bit over on the general forums.  I've been all over the place on the issue myself, but I think I've settled on it should be hp=CON to start, and +1 class hit die (rolled) per level.  That's the homebrew rule I used to use back when I played 2E, nothing else is as easy or makes as much sense to me at this point.
I was pretty ok with the last playtest.  My players still got beaten up in the Caves by goblins, although they did almost take down an ogre, which was a surprise to me.  It was a fun fight that would have led to a TPK if they'd had fewer hp.  I'm happiest with front loaded hp and slower increases.  As such, I'm also not a fan of Con added to hp per level because of the increasing imbalance.

I've seen plenty of threads complaining about the lowered hp (including posts from those who say they are ok with the reductions) but I don't recall seeing any first time round from players saying the characters had too many hp.  If it weren't broke...
I really hope they'll return to 4E style hp. I don't mind wizards who are more fragile than fighters; I don't want wizards who constantly drop to a single hit from mooks. I also don't want con to again be so important that everyone has to invest in it; having Con score at char-gen is far more reasonable than Con mod at every single level.
What exactly is 4E style?
What exactly is 4E style?

In 4E, characters started out with hit points based on the total of their constitution and another number determined by their class. Wizards start out with 10 points so a Wizard with a 12 constitution begins the game with 22 hp.  Fighters begin the game with 15 points so a Fighter with a 16 constitution begins the game with 31 hp.

I greatly dislike the new HP rules.  For at least the first few levels the Wizard can be one shotted by an even level monster (Goblin at First, Orc at thrid, etc.)  I don't expect them to be tanks, but its too low.  I want my leather wearing Int/Con Staff wizard back, striding the battlefield with a 17 AC at first level dropping scorching bursts at will.  Thats  how I see a war wizard, not some asmatic dufus in a robe hiding in the back in case something dangerous like a house cat shows up.  
Id like if we could have a Variant Rule for Starting Hit Points, like we do for Long Rest Recovery Rule.

I don't mind the fewer Hit Points since i am ok with more gritty games, but PC should have the option to start more padded as well for those not to keen on grityness. 

IMO a good middle ground for Starting HP would be Maxed HD + Constitution score.


For exemple:

Starting HP: Maxed HD + Constitution score.

Variant: Lower Starting Hit Points  
Lower Starting Hit Points: Maxed HD + Constitution modifier.
All-Around Lower Starting Hit Points: Rolled HD + Constitution modifier.
I think they are a little too low now. 
"not some asmatic dufus in a robe hiding in the back in case something dangerous like a house cat shows up."

Indeedthat is what causes a lower hp player to incurr in the Owlbear Syndrome.

everytime you approach a door or in a wide open area, you expect to be torn to death by a dire owlbear.

(now the story behind why it's an owlbear behind the door, and why dire, it's a long one and would take a dedicated thread to explain)
Right now, at 6 HP, a goblin can 1-shot the wizard.

I may be in the minority, but I'm fine with this.  It's very much a 1E flavor where first level characters aren't supposed to be all that special and it's not uncommon for them to die (especially the wizards: high risk with high reward as they end up being very powerful at high levels). As I've said in other threads, it's why I like the fact that character generation is so easy because if your character dies you can roll up a new one and get back in the game in about half an hour.




well this depends on your play style.
In the campaigns i like to play and run even 1st level characters have lots of background.what cities they have visited during their live,
childhood friends, famely,  which cities they have visited during their lifetime, where they where born, their home town, people who where influences on you when growing up.

and much more so the avarage 1st level character starts with 3 or 4 pages of how he came to the point where the character enters the game.
having so much invested i don't mind a character dying in a herowic way in combat but bing killed by the first stray arrow you meet does not work well for this playstyle. 

should they be slightly more at starting (in a range 14-25) ?
or do you think the lowers HP are better (to stress a bit more on healings and defense) ? 

what do you think ?

They are WAY too low now. IMO they were too low in the first playtest.


After a few false starts at playtest 2 where the wizard kept laying down on the job, we settled on giving out the survivor specialty for free and maxing the hp at first. Now we can play out encounters without near instant wizard KO's. So far it's working out ok.

Right now, at 6 HP, a goblin can 1-shot the wizard.

I may be in the minority, but I'm fine with this.  It's very much a 1E flavor where first level characters aren't supposed to be all that special and it's not uncommon for them to die (especially the wizards: high risk with high reward as they end up being very powerful at high levels). As I've said in other threads, it's why I like the fact that character generation is so easy because if your character dies you can roll up a new one and get back in the game in about half an hour.




well this depends on your play style.
In the campaigns i like to play and run even 1st level characters have lots of background.what cities they have visited during their live,
childhood friends, famely,  which cities they have visited during their lifetime, where they where born, their home town, people who where influences on you when growing up.

and much more so the avarage 1st level character starts with 3 or 4 pages of how he came to the point where the character enters the game.
having so much invested i don't mind a character dying in a herowic way in combat but bing killed by the first stray arrow you meet does not work well for this playstyle. 



I agree that  being killed from the first lucky shot from a mook is extreme, but I feel like the "you die when your HP total is -15" (to use a level 1 Con 14 Wizard) addresses that issue quite nicely.   There's not an equal level threat, to my knowledge, in the bestiary as written that can take a Wizard from 6 to -15 in one shot.

I do feel like being knocked out, with options to be revived, by a lucky shot from a mook is quite reasonable.  Your group may TOTALLY disagree, so that's why we need options, ideally presented in a way where none is given preference.
I look at it in one of two ways....

A) HPs are fine, but creature attacks need to be toned down as well.  Kobolds doing D4+1 (ranged), Goblins doing D6+1 (ranged), and Orcs doing D12+2 (!!! melee) will eat up reduced HPs.

B) Leave creature damages as is, but boost HPs again.

Originally, Kobolds did D4 damage and Orc n Goblins did D6.   Having, say, 6 HPs certainly put you at risk, but you could survive a hit or two.

Not to mention dying rules allowed others to come to your rescue if you did get into trouble.

Beyond that, the new 650 XPs to make level 2 means getting HPs quicker.  In fact, a concerned DM could start the players out relatively safely and easily get them to level 2 simply by having their "introduction to the world" begin with some controlled "adventure."  Hired to protect something, unearth something, or discover something.  I nice little series of RP+encounters to get them to level 2 with mostly minimal risk.

At any rate, HPs alone aren't the only thing that need to be examined.  There's a lot that goes into the survivability of characters.

I agree that  being killed from the first lucky shot from a mook is extreme, but I feel like the "you die when your HP total is -15" (to use a level 1 Con 14 Wizard) addresses that issue quite nicely.   There's not an equal level threat, to my knowledge, in the bestiary as written that can take a Wizard from 6 to -15 in one shot.

I do feel like being knocked out, with options to be revived, by a lucky shot from a mook is quite reasonable.  Your group may TOTALLY disagree, so that's why we need options, ideally presented in a way where none is given preference.

Well, when the wizard spends more time laying on the ground than playing, the survive till -14hp doesn't really help. We've have the wizard get knocked down, only to be healed to full and then knocked back down before he even got a chance to stand back up. Not fun. Though he's in the same boat as the rogue, spending 1/2 the fights doing nothing...

I want my leather wearing Int/Con Staff wizard back, striding the battlefield with a 17 AC at first level dropping scorching bursts at will.

That's your starting point?  I'd hate to see what you expect at level, say, level 6+.

If I'm not mistaken, the new test rules are fairly similar to how D&D was played for the first 80% of its existance.  I'm guessing that many players who either started within the last 5 years or really like 4E will not want to go back to lower starting hp.

I like bringing the hp die back into play again giving the DM the choice to take the slightly above average route or roll the dice.  I see so many players concerned with low first level hp characters being wiped out.  I say max out first level hit points for all characters.  Maybe make the minimum hp die d6.  But, when it's all said and done, the DM has the discretion to fudge a dice.  He's the ref, and can ignore a dice roll that would take out the wizard or rogue, or any other character for that matter, if he sees fit.  You can hide whatever roll you want or anything else behind the DM screen.  It's not cheating or dishonest.  It's keeping the players interested in the game and making something of their characters.  Players dont' mind dying if it is flashy or important and with the story.  When they can die from a stray or lucky arrow, players tend to not put any effort or place ownership in their character.  That's not what a DM should want.  Players start making silly decisions because the consequence is a dead character that they don't care about and can replace with a new one in five minutes.  The balance is not yet achieved.   
      
Right now, at 6 HP, a goblin can 1-shot the wizard.

I may be in the minority, but I'm fine with this.  It's very much a 1E flavor where first level characters aren't supposed to be all that special and it's not uncommon for them to die (especially the wizards: high risk with high reward as they end up being very powerful at high levels). As I've said in other threads, it's why I like the fact that character generation is so easy because if your character dies you can roll up a new one and get back in the game in about half an hour.




well this depends on your play style.
In the campaigns i like to play and run even 1st level characters have lots of background.what cities they have visited during their live,
childhood friends, famely,  which cities they have visited during their lifetime, where they where born, their home town, people who where influences on you when growing up.

and much more so the avarage 1st level character starts with 3 or 4 pages of how he came to the point where the character enters the game.
having so much invested i don't mind a character dying in a herowic way in combat but bing killed by the first stray arrow you meet does not work well for this playstyle. 



I agree that  being killed from the first lucky shot from a mook is extreme, but I feel like the "you die when your HP total is -15" (to use a level 1 Con 14 Wizard) addresses that issue quite nicely.   There's not an equal level threat, to my knowledge, in the bestiary as written that can take a Wizard from 6 to -15 in one shot.

I do feel like being knocked out, with options to be revived, by a lucky shot from a mook is quite reasonable.  Your group may TOTALLY disagree, so that's why we need options, ideally presented in a way where none is given preference.



wel lets tae your level 1 con 14 wizard.
a goblin manages to suprise the wizard moves to the wizard and hets loucly roling a 6 for damage.
the wizard is now uncounsius
the goblin rolls good for initiative and performs coup de grace.

the fact that you remain alive untill you reach a -X value only is of any use if another player that can heal you or prevent any enemy from reaaching you  has a turn between the enemy that knocked you uncouncius and the first enemy acting.

 
Players dont' mind dying if it is flashy or important and with the story.      



This I agree with 100%, which is why they did away with 'death at 0hp' for PCs ages ago.

More relevant question: do players mind being incapacitated (brought to the 'dying' condition, which is very different from having died) when it's due to a lucky enemy roll/bad tactics/a wild combination of bad circumstances?

If the issue is players disliking it when their characters are incapacitated in boring ways... what do you do when a wizard with 22hp is at 3hp and is hit by a lucky shot from a monster?   Same problem.

 
I like it.

I have no problem with characters that are capable of dying if they get run through with a spear, after all wouldn't you be disappointed if you tried to impale a kobold and he laughed at you because your best attack barely scratched it. 

Of course theres those who will complain that this isn't heroic or cinematic or some other euphemism for invincible.

I'm really hoping that hitpoints get capped around 10th level but since the devs are determined to make Hit points the measure of a creatures encounter level I guess it's just wishful thinking on my part. 
Players dont' mind dying if it is flashy or important and with the story.      



This I agree with 100%, which is why they did away with 'death at 0hp' for PCs ages ago.

More relevant question: do players mind being incapacitated (brought to the 'dying' condition, which is very different from having died) when it's due to a lucky enemy roll/bad tactics/a wild combination of bad circumstances?

If the issue is players disliking it when their characters are incapacitated in boring ways... what do you do when a wizard with 22hp is at 3hp and is hit by a lucky shot from a monster?   Same problem.

 

The issue is that with the HP level and low AC of the wizard now, the shot doesn't have to be that lucky...

My players don't mind a KO after a hard fight or by a very skilled foe that got the drop on them. Ko'd by a lost initiative or a lucky mook, not so much.  Now to the 'what do you do when a wizard with 22hp is at 3hp and is hit by a lucky shot from a monster?', That depends how you got to 3hp. If she got to 3hp in a good exciting fight and a mook gets lucky and KO's them at 3hp, that's fine. If he was at 3hp because the first 4 mooks hit him before initiative and the last finished him off before he even got to move, then they mind.

Man it's a swing here.

I like them except for one exception.

Survivor + Hill Dwarf fighter.

26 starting HP with an 18 con (after class and race bonus)

Human survivor fighter gets 22 with the same starting stat.

Guess you could go survivor with everyone and get 12 minimum for the wizard

I think a good rule for those with problems would to just tag survivor on as a bonus for all characters.

This beefs everyone up to around first playtest HP.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

I agree that free survivor as a "modul" should work fine. My issue with DnD was always HP inflation, so I will be more looking at how the HP progression works.
Survivor + Hill Dwarf fighter. 26 starting HP with an 18 con (after class and race bonus) Human survivor fighter gets 22 with the same starting stat.


How do you arrive to this result ? I get the following:

Dwarf Fighter CON 18 Survivor
Starting HP: 10 + 4 + 1+ 5* = 20
HD per level: 1d12 + 1d10

Human Fighter CON 18 Survivor
Starting HP: 10 + 4 + 5* = 19
HD per level: 1d10 + 1d8


Breakdown [sblock]

Dwarf Fighter Starting HP 10
Constitution modifier + 4
Dwarf +1
Thoughness +5* or 1d10

Human Fighter Starting HP 10
Constitution modifier + 4
Thoughness +5* or 1d8

Hill Dwarf HD increase doesn't affect Starting HP since it increase HD and Starting HP is a static number. Hill Dwarf gives +1 Starting HP
Thoughness additional HD doesn't affect Starting HP since it increase HD and Starting HP is a static number. Thoughness +5 (or 1d8/1d10) Starting HP
Survivor + Hill Dwarf fighter. 26 starting HP with an 18 con (after class and race bonus) Human survivor fighter gets 22 with the same starting stat.


How do you arrive to this result ? I get the following:

Dwarf Fighter CON 18 Survivor
Starting HP: 10 + 4 + 1+ 5* = 20
HD per level: 1d12 + 1d10

Human Fighter CON 18 Survivor
Starting HP: 10 + 4 + 5* = 19
HD per level: 1d10 + 1d8


Breakdown [sblock]

Dwarf Fighter Starting HP 10
Constitution modifier + 4
Dwarf +1
Thoughness +5* or 1d10

Human Fighter Starting HP 10
Constitution modifier + 4
Thoughness +5* or 1d8

Hill Dwarf HD increase doesn't affect Starting HP since it increase HD and Starting HP is a static number. Hill Dwarf gives +1 Starting HP
Thoughness additional HD doesn't affect Starting HP since it increase HD and Starting HP is a static number. Thoughness +5 (or 1d8/1d10) Starting HP

Should have stated as max.  The 5 is for those who don't like to roll.

Toughness is listed as d8 hence the average +1 of 5 for non rollers.  You'd need to adjust it for the dwarf +6 

My calculation for dwarf 12+4 for fighter plus con. Then 10 for lucky roll on toughness.  

I could average and you'd see a smaller difference to be sure but I was illustrating that the Human even focused does not surpass the dwarf at his specialty.  

If you use only the half rounded up when leveling for HP then at best your human can match your dwarf for HP for 4 out of every 8 levels

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

I see, you assumed max rolled Thoughness die.

Also there's assumptions that the Playtest doesnt say though.

Starting HP does not say if its your HD maxed or if its a static number equal to it.  This makes a different since the Dwarf Fighter Starting HP would be 12+1 (thus factoring both next die size and the +1)

Thoughness HD increase does not say it also increase the HP bonus if the die size gets bigger.
I see, you assumed max rolled Thoughness die.

Also there's assumptions that the Playtest doesnt say though.

Starting HP does not say if its your HD maxed or if its a static number equal to it.  This makes a different since the Dwarf Fighter Starting HP would be 12+1 (thus factoring both next die size and the +1)

Thoughness HD increase does not say it also increase the HP bonus if the die size gets bigger.


Quite true.  I do see however that the toughness options has the same static increase as the cleric which uses the same formula as all the other classes.  

The leveling HP for each class is 1/2 die +1 if you choose the static option.


So I inferred that the 5 was just the static option for those who choose not to roll.

Were this a completed system I wouldn't call my assumption RAW but without any specifics given I used the underlying math to determine the intent as I saw it.

Showing max potential isn't the best way to show actual gamsu results unless we assume that starting HP are maxed in which case the +5 is only meant to indicate the non rolled default for gainin it at higher levels.  

Either way the default should increase by 1 for each die increment based on all other examples of HD in the packet.  

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

wel in my opionon hitpoints are a bit lowbut how high do they have to be ?
here is how i come up with what in my opinion is the minimum number of hitpoints a character should have.

in a 1V1 fight with a normal enemy of your level you should at least have 1 action so you should not go uncoucius in 1 attack.
looking at the normal level 1 mobs the one that does the most damage does 1d6+1 so a max of 7 damage.

so to garantee a character would at least get 1 action the absolute minimum hitpoits you could have is 8.


the character with the least garanteed HP at this point is the wizard with 4 Hp.

 
I think they're a bit too low.

Personally, I'd enjoy Con score + HD roll (or take avg.) at 1st level. Therefore, a Wizard with a Con of 8 and +d4 = 11 HP to start. That, IMO, will help out the cleric from holding ALL his spells for healing. And as you progress, you could go the conventional roll HD (or avg.) + Con modifier for HP generation.  
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