The Excessive Mark: Triple Tap Punishment

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Hi all,

I've been playing with this idea for a little while, and I finally got the chance to throw him together.

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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Mialee, level 16
Half-Elf, Fighter/Paladin, Tactical Warpriest
Hybrid Paladin Option: Hybrid Paladin Reflex
Hybrid Talent Option: Paladin Armor Proficiency
Half-Elf Power Selection Option: Dilettante
Impiltur (Impiltur Benefit)
Theme: Guardian
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 11, CON 13, DEX 15, INT 9, WIS 18, CHA 23
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 10, DEX 14, INT 8, WIS 14, CHA 17
 
 
AC: 34 Fort: 24 Ref: 27 Will: 28
HP: 123 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 30
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Diplomacy +21, Endurance +10, Intimidate +19, Religion +12
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +6, Arcana +7, Athletics +4, Bluff +14, Dungeoneering +12, Heal +12, History +7, Insight +18, Nature

+12, Perception +14, Stealth +6, Streetwise +14, Thievery +6
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Guardian Attack: Guardian's Counter
Fighter Attack: Combat Challenge
Paladin Feature: Divine Challenge
Cleric Utility: Healing Word
Ardent Attack 1: Focusing Strike
Fighter Attack 1: Knockdown Assault
Paladin Attack 1: Virtuous Strike
Paladin Attack 1: Valorous Smite
Paladin Attack 1: Majestic Halo
Fighter Utility 2: Shielded Sides
Fighter Attack 3: Shield Edge Block
Paladin Attack 5: Unyielding Faith
Paladin Utility 6: Wrath of the Gods
Paladin Utility 10: Winter's Arrival
Tactical Warpriest Attack 11: Battle Cry
Tactical Warpriest Utility 12: Battle Favor
Paladin Attack 13: Castigating Strike
Fighter Attack 15: Unyielding Avalanche
Paladin Utility 16: Angelic Intercession
 
FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Triple-headed flail)
Level 2: Hybrid Talent
Level 4: Flail Expertise
Level 6: Power of the Sun
Level 8: Group Defense
Level 10: Initiate of the Faith
Level 11: Daunting Challenge
Level 12: Lashing Flail
Level 14: Dragging Flail
Level 16: Battering Shield
 
ITEMS
Radiant Triple-headed flail +3 x1
Agile Gith Plate Armor +3 x1
Amulet of Mental Resolve +4 x1
Siberys Shard of Radiance (paragon tier)
Iron Armbands of Power (paragon tier) x1
Rushing Cleats x1
Power Jewel
Heavy Shield x1
====== End ======


I'll admit the items are a little rushed, but the idea is there.  Also, Dilletant is simply thrown in: Knack for success could easially be subbed in.  You spend Heroic as a strange fighter, mostly, trying to sword and board using Virtuous Strike for mark punishment and Paladin encounter powers.  The important thing is to sanction enemies early and often.  Also, your mark is essentially a -3 due to Group Defense.  Paragon makes things pick up a bit as you gain Daunting Challenge, making your mark a -4 penalty, plus flail shennanigans for punishment.

The key to the build is the divine sanction.  The Hybrid Paladin mark punishes through an immediate action, I suspect in an attempt to stop exactly what this build does.  The sanction, however, does not.  This allows you to Combat Challenge anyone sanctioned by you as well as the sanction punishment.  Power of the Sun creates radiant vulnerability through Virtous Strike for the successive punishments as well.  At LVL 16 you also gain the Tactical Warpriest punishment, which uses opportunity actions, allowing for a double-tap on Divine Challenge, figher, or Warpriest marks and triple tap on divine sanctions.

This makes your LVL 16 sanction punishment as follows.

1. Fighter punishment: +22 vrs AC, 1d10+20 radiant plus Vuln 5 Radiant plus be prone and slid 3 squares adjacent to me
2. Warpriest punishment: +24 (CA) vrs AC, 1d10+25 radiant plus be slid 3 squares away.
3. Divine Sanction punishment: 16 radiant (or only 12 if bothe the previous attacks miss)

Future options:
Feats:    
    Weapon focus (duh)
    Hindering Shield (if I'm going to prone you potentially 6 squares away from my ally, I should slow you while I'm at it)
    Anything defensive (your NADS are currently knee high to a gnome, especially for a defender)
Items:
    Foebinder ring (my mark is still -4 through a blast that includes me?  Yes, please.)
    Symbol of the Champion's Code (Make my challenge/sanction stronger, and an excellent Daily)

Weaknesses:
    As stated above, your Non-AC Defenses are really, REALLy low for a defender.  You pretty much lose an at-will to hybriding, and you're locked into a Fighter encounter power that really is only important for the bump to defenses.  No worries about dailies, though.  Locking down bad guys and putting up Rain of Steel (or a better version) is stupid sweet.

So, what do you think?

_insert name here_

Edited for readibility
Hybrid paladin was updated a long time ago to no longer require an action for punishment, so DC+CC stack from the start.
Hybrid paladin was updated a long time ago to no longer require an action for punishment, so DC+CC stack from the start.

Ah, you are quite correct.  That makes the build a bit stronger.  And you can change some of the crappier powers that happen to also sanction 

The concept still stands, though.  And makes me giggle 

_insert name here_
You could drop hybrid armor talent for Improved Defenses, and lose 1 ac for +2 NADs
What if you took a post racial 17 Str/17 Cha/13 dex array? I've never played with a 17 attack stat, but maybe for this build it would work. It would let you have Mighty Challenge (instead of battering shield), and have fighter powers that hit.

Take Adept Diletantte with a cleric at-will (Lance of Faith?), that qualifies you for Tac Warpriest without a high wis.

Edit: I forgot you needed 15 dex for dragging flail. Also, take glowering threat.
I woudl personally go with a Str/Cha build taking Mighty Challenge and allowing you to use a) Fighter powers and b) drop Virtuous Strike for Ardent Strike, which is a good way to Sanction enemies and thus double tap at-will. You won't have Power of the Sun on a Raidant MBA, but you can easily make that up with all the double tapping goodness.
That also, speaking of Fighter powers, allows Come and Get It. Not only it is a damn straight autopick golden class power, but you can have hilarious tricks like pulling the whole field to you, dump an action point and use Castigating Strike on all enemies you just very nicely clumped up together.
Also, if you're not using a Radiant at-will you can dump Power of the Sun and take Improved Defenses, and then take Fighter Combat Talent instead of Paladin Armor Proficiency. You'll lose Plate, but Scale ain't anything to complain about, and you get e.g. going 1handed, a +1 to hit and all the related talents.
Edit: foregoing radiant also frees up your weapon to go Psychic, grab a Gythianki Silver Blade and Psychic Lock, for another -2 to enemies. Nevermind, you're using flails.

If you're instead sticking to a straight Cha build, switch out the bracers for Mental Might (besides, IAoP don't stack with the Radiant weapon bonus), and grab Come and Get it. You will use Cha for it that way.
Whatever the case, Mark of Warding instead of Group Defense if you're allowed Dragonmarks. Same resulting penalty, but additional bonuses for you.
Nice stack.

Just need a way to make it useful. 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

If you are not tied to Half-Elf, Dragonborn with 18 Str/Cha and 12 Dex/Wis could qualify for a warpriest, as well.
Additionally, Half-orcs can take a feat to use Str instead of Cha for DC/DS (and it stacks with Mighty Challenge)

"Not only are you wrong, but I even created an Excel spreadsheet to show you how wrong you are." --James Wyatt, May 2006

Dilige, et quod vis fac

Hmm. Champion of Order basically gives you this anyway, doesn't it? You can only single-punish (CC) on a shift, and it requires a proper Divine Challenge and not just a Sanction, but as I see it, it has two advantages over Tactical Warpriest:

1) It doesn't require you to keep using at-wills to keep your super-mark up, so you can actually use your encounter powers.
2) The triple-punisher comes online at 11, not 16.

Oh, and the stats line up better, assuming you have Mighty Challenge (and probably Blessed Strength, at this point).

Also, the wording on Tactical Warpriest is a little weird. Do you still get their AoO-punishment even if you overwrite the mark with DS? Seems like it, though I admit I don't like it.
If you do this with a not-a-fighter (maybe Cleric to get TacWarpriest) as part of your Hybrid (I think the Battlemind punishes basic marks even as a hybrid) you can add an additional punishment 1/enc with MC Fighter via Battle Awareness (although that stat spread is pretty hideous).

This is a funny thing to do with a Berserker, incidentally.  When attacking your ally results in being hit twice AND Having the attack invalidated, that's a pretty solid punishment.  It's unfortunate that the Knight can't MC fighter to the same effect...

Actually, that first bit just doesn't work, does it, because you need paladin, fighter, cleric to get all three components.  Although, half-elfing for Ardent Strike could acoomplish much the same effect...
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
I like doing things with a Battlemind | Paladin / Tactical Warpriest.


Lightning rush to anyone within 5 wo attacks an ally - you have used an at will attack so you can Warpriest mark them and OA them.  Heavy Blade Opportunity to Ardent Strike them.  They are now sanctioned and can be zapped for a no action.  The nice thing here is - you have not telegraphed which baddie you have singled out for this treatment.

Better if you have mass sanctioned everything, then you can zap, Lightning Rush, Warpriest mark, HBO OA with something that will negate their attack.


Pallies are always a great place to start for multi punishment though.    
There's some major timing issues with that...
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
The build should be Str/Cha, have Brash Strike as a Fighter at-will, and then Harlequin Style. At the moment, the attackers can still attack you - and with your low defenses, that's the best option. When you start with an 18/18 and therefore 22/22 at 16th, the target of your Brash Strike has no good options - attack you at a total of a -4(and at best trigger shield edge block for an additional -4 to hit) or take a triple tap.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Mialee, level 16


Hey ... (shocked cthulhu face) ... when did Mialee come out of retirement?

And is this yet another sign of the 5e apocalypse ?!

Here comes your 19th forums breakdown ... ohh who's to blame, it ain't 5E driving you insane.

 

Actually...

Get a battlemind ally with lighting rush. 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I hate to be bothersome, but I don't think this works.

1.  A creature can only be subject to one mark at a time.

2. Divine sanction/Challenge is a mark. A Paladin only does sanction/challenge damage to something marked by the divince sanction/challenge.

3. The Warpriest 16th ability is also a mark, and the special attack from that can only be done on a target marked by that ability.

Hmm I just reread that ability. it does day the next time the target shifts or attacks, it doesn't say the target has to remain marked for the warpriest to get the opportunity attack. Nevermind.
At 21st with a spiked shield and Two Weapon Flurry you can add a fourth mark punishment in there. 

Co-author on AoA 2-3 and 4-1.

After reading this thread I wondered if I could do something similar with a Swordmage|Battlemind? Aegis of Assault, let the enemy hit an ally, tp to their location, smack 'em and mind spike 'em?
Indeed. That's why a Paladin is perfect for this kind of things: action economy. DC/DS punishment doesn't take any actions, which is a huge bonus.
Can you explain why, I am unaware of the issue.
Right. Dang!
What would be great here is if you could combine all of this with something like Eyebite to make yourself invisible and create a nasty catch 22. Unfortunately Eyebite isn't a melee attack so it doesn't qualify for the Tactical Warpriest's F16. You have the paladin encounter Mocking Smite which allows you to do it once per encounter at least.