Unlucky Teleport

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Does the Sorcerer feat Unlucky Teleport constitute a separate damage instance?

Unlucky Teleport

Unlucky Teleport
Paragon Tier
Prerequisite: Sorcerer, Wild Magic class feature
Benefit: Enemies you teleport with sorcerer powers or with sorcerer paragon path powers or class features take 1d10 psychic damage.


If yes, what mods would get applied (i.e., the implement from the triggering power,  Chaos Power, etc)?  Does the teleport damage pick up the keywords from the triggering power?
Yes.

Almost none. It isn't a power, it has no keywords (because only powers have keywords). It is psychic damage, so psychic vulnerability on the enemy would apply.
You would apply any bonuses that apply to the power that caused the teleport based on the method of the teleport (ie. if teleporting doesn't require hitting, you get nothing based off of hitting); for the same reason that Mark of Storm, Headsmans Chop, Claw Gloves, Crippling Crush, Firewind Blade, Curse/Quarry/SA, Shroud, etc. all work the way they do.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
You would apply any bonuses that apply to the power that caused the teleport based on the method of the teleport (ie. if teleporting doesn't require hitting, you get nothing based off of hitting); for the same reason that Mark of Storm, Headsmans Chop, Claw Gloves, Crippling Crush, Firewind Blade, Curse/Quarry/SA, Shroud, etc. all work the way they do.



Mark of Storm: Not damage, irrelevant
Headsmans Chop: Extra damage
Claw Gloves: Extra damage
Crippling Crush: Extra damage
Firewind Blade: Separate damage instance
Curse/Quarry/SA: Extra damage
Shroud: Separate damage instance with very specific rules.

The only one of these that is similar is the firewind blade, which is a separate damage instance but is not a damage roll so very very little can be done to modify it. Unlucky teleport is also a separate damage instance which would not inherit anything from the power that triggered it.
Yes.

Almost none. It isn't a power, it has no keywords (because only powers have keywords). It is psychic damage, so psychic vulnerability on the enemy would apply.


This. Its an entirely seperate source of damage unrelated to the power that enabled it and it has no keyword. 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Yes.

Almost none. It isn't a power, it has no keywords (because only powers have keywords). It is psychic damage, so psychic vulnerability on the enemy would apply.


This. Its an entirely seperate source of damage unrelated to the power that enabled it and it has no keyword. 

It has the psychic keyword.

Not that i can think of anything that would apply beyond vulnerability.

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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

It doesn't have the Psychic keyword, since only powers have keyword and this instance of damage is not a power.

Its a Psychic damage roll though.


RC 110 Keyword: Keyword's help in defining Power's effect and can aid in classifying types of power.  

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Point is the wording of the feats, Jay, not their specific effect. When you X, Y. We always count Y as being intrinsically tied to X because otherwise you couldn't add the extra damage, or whatever, to the power. Precedent is that Y is tied to X unless it's a separate action or power (see, all those things you listed); in this case, X happens to be Sorcerer Powers, Y is unarguably not a separate action or power, and happens to be a damage roll.

Unless you can cite me a source saying you can't add damage rolls to powers ... I mean, this isn't even the "extra damage can (not) add a damage roll to powers that don't normally have them" debate.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Point is the wording of the feats, Jay, not their specific effect. When you X, Y. We always count Y as being intrinsically tied to X because otherwise you couldn't add the extra damage, or whatever, to the power. Precedent is that Y is tied to X unless it's a separate action or power (see, all those things you listed); in this case, X happens to be Sorcerer Powers, Y is unarguably not a separate action or power, and happens to be a damage roll.

Unless you can cite me a source saying you can't add damage rolls to powers ... I mean, this isn't even the "extra damage can (not) add a damage roll to powers that don't normally have them" debate.



Except, it doesn't say "the target takes extra damage equal to 1d6 psychic damage" it says "the target takes 1d6 psychic damage."

It's not extra damage.  It's just damage.  Since it's just damage, it isn't being added to damage from a power.

I assume the reason they did this is because if you teleport the target with a non-damaging power, then the "extra damage" would be lost and this feat would be worthless.
Point is the wording of the feats, Jay, not their specific effect. When you X, Y. We always count Y as being intrinsically tied to X because otherwise you couldn't add the extra damage, or whatever, to the power.


The reasons why an extra damage is added to an attack's damage and is of the same type is because it says so. Other damage when X happen are simply that, damage when X happen, no more no less. If you say its more, the burden is on you to quote the rule saying so. 

RC 223 Extra damage: Extra damage is always in addition to other damage and is of the same type or types as that damage, unless otherwise noted.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

One of the reason why Unlocky Teleport is not a extra damage is mainly to be able to damage the enemy regardless if the Teleport power doesn't deal damage.

Unlocky Teleport: Enemies you teleport with sorcerer powers or with sorcerer paragon path powers or class features take 1d10 psychic damage.
 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Unlocky Teleport is not a extra damage

I think that Zathris was trying to indicate that additions to Powers from feats are considered part of the power (similar to a power's effect and such).

RAI: I don't think the writer's intended feats to be unable to have keywords.
RAW: I don't think additions to Powers from feats are considered non-powers. Precedence seems to go against that.

... but I'd be completely happy to be presented with evidence otherwise

There's the problem. You think of Unlocky Teleport as an ''addition'', while its a seperate event that has no bearing on the power enabling it and doesn't even hint it add anything to it.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Most of the "part of the power" argument appears to be related to various properties of attack powers.  What if the teleport isn't caused by an attack power, but rather by a utility power?

It can't be extra damage, because then it would not cause damage on powers that don't cause damage, because extra damage is always in addition to other damage.

It has to be its own thing.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
There's the problem. You think of Unlocky Teleport as an ''addition'', while its a seperate event that has no bearing on the power enabling it

Things like unlucky teleport are printed on the power card in the character builder, and I suspect that if you asked one of the writers, they would say "yeah, riders like that are handled as part of the power". Precedence supports this.

Are you saying you don't see this as a possibility? Do you possibly have some evidence that might negate this precedence?
It can't be extra damage

Agreed, but that's not what's being posited.

The CB is not a Rule Source. It most likely print it by pure association, like it does for Sneak Attack for Rogue Powers etc..

I don't need evidence as the Feat doesn't provide any hint that it is part of the power. If someone claim it is, he should be the one bring RAW evidence. Wink 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

The only reason Mark of Storm, to use a potentially-similar example, works the way it does is that it's part of an attack, which means it's part of the power that contains the attack.

Given that this doesn't reference or require attacks (it works on non-attack utility powers), that construction can't be applied.  I'd be curious if there were any other effects like this that weren't necessarily part of attacks that had consensus to be part of the power.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I'd be curious if there were any other effects like this that weren't necessarily part of attacks that had consensus to be part of the power.

Example:
Supreme Inspiration feat: "Whenever you use inspiring word, you can heal two targets instead of one".

Inspiring word is not an attack, and this feat would have to be part of the power in order to work (due to targeting considerations).

Ok...but I'm not sure how that helps us resolve the question.  It's unavoidably part of the power, because it references something about the power specifically that can't be separated out. 

I'm thinking of things like the feyslasher feature - that damage isn't caused by the teleportation power, is it?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Ok...but I'm not sure how that helps us resolve the question.

- It doesn't resolve it, but it's what was requested ;)
- it negates the assertion that the only reason a feat works this way is because it's part of an 'attack'
- It's RAW support for the assertion that riders like this are handled as part of the power.

I'm thinking of things like the feyslasher feature

The what? I don't see that in the online compendium.

Ok...but I'm not sure how that helps us resolve the question.

- It doesn't resolve it, but it's what was requested ;)
- it negates the assertion that the only reason a feat works this way is because it's part of an 'attack'
- It's RAW support for the assertion that riders like this are handled as part of the power.

I'm thinking of things like the feyslasher feature

The what? I don't see that in the online compendium.




Well, the hope was that it would help to resolve it 

Feyslasher is the one that does damage to adjacent things when you teleport - I can't remember the name of the actual feature or the paragon path that contains it, only that it was fey pact warlock and the builds that it generated pre-nerf were called "feyslasher"
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Do you mean the Long Night Scion's Winter Winds?  (Feyslasher is a build that uses it.)

Winter Winds (16th level): Once per turn, when you leave a square by teleporting, enemies adjacent to that square take cold damage equal to your Intelligence modifier and are slowed until the end of your next turn.
Ok...but I'm not sure how that helps us resolve the question.  It's unavoidably part of the power, because it references something about the power specifically that can't be separated out. 


Glad we agree?
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Do you mean the Long Night Scion's Winter Winds?


Or the Feytouched PP's Slashing Wake, which does the same thing.
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Ok...but I'm not sure how that helps us resolve the question.  It's unavoidably part of the power, because it references something about the power specifically that can't be separated out. 


This. Supreme Inspiration directly affect and change how the power operate, this is not the same type of Feat effect.

Winter Winds's effect has no indication it is part of the Teleporting power whatsoever so it shouldn't be.
 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Ok...but I'm not sure how that helps us resolve the question.  It's unavoidably part of the power, because it references something about the power specifically that can't be separated out. 


Glad we agree?


Not really, because you're taking something I said about something and applying it to something else.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Sorry, hard to tell who is replying to what when you aren't quoting or otherwise indicating who you are responding to.

Anyway, the argument is simple: Does Crippling Crush work because it says it does, or does it work because it has to? I'm arguing the former, you apparently think it's the later. Or to be even more specific, ignoring if the power has a Slide to begin with, can Mark of Storm's Slide be augmented by a Staggering Weapon or Superior Implement with the Forceful Property or Rushing Cleats (assuming the attack is appropriate)? If you answer yes, then you have to also agree that UT's Damage Roll is a "Damage Roll caused by a Power" and thus any applicable bonuses will add to it. If you answer no, then anything that isn't worded "your power/attack does X" (ie. all that stuff I listed in my earlier post, and hundreds more effects) doesn't also become part of the power and in many cases ends up with 0 effect (like crippling crush) as a result; unless you want to argue "it works because it has to in order to do anything", which is a complete departure from RAW.

An effect that isn't otherwise part of a Power, that occurs when you use the Power in some manner, and doesn't have it's own action/attack/power type, is either considered to be part of the Power for all other purposes, or it isn't. We all know what the concensus on this issue is, stop trying to create an exception just because it makes Wild Sorcs better.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
For a long time i have been saying that Mark of Storm doesn't make the Slide part of the Power, being just another ''when you do Y, X happens''.  I know most people on CharOp doesn't share this opinion and make builds that assume the opposite and use Forced Movement Booster regardless if the boost ehance the Power or not. (ex. when you used a power that slide. slide 1 more square)

Crippling Crush is an extra damage that come add to the Trigerring Power's damage, making it part of it due to extra damage Rules. Remove the extra from the sentence, and suddenly Crippling Crush isn't part of the attack's damage anymore and isn't of the same type neither, effectively becoming a seperate instance of damage.  Just like Mark of Storm or Unlucky Teleport are instance of movement seperate from the Power, thus dissociated from it, only taking effect if something specific happen, no more no less. (''when you do Y, X happens'')




Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

The thing is, Plague, there's nothing in the text of the abilities that makes Mark of Storm any different from Eldritch Strike.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Let me know if I misrepresent anything:

Interpretation 1: For something to be caused by a power, it must be in the power, i.e. written as part of the original power card. So Mark of Storm slide would be separate from the power, as would a slow from Hindering Shield, etc.
(Plaguescarred's position)

Interpretation 2: For something to be caused by a power, it just needs to be a result of using that power. The MoS slide happens because you hit with a lightning power; thus it is part of what happens when that power is used. Same with the Hindering Shield slow, etc. If a new power is used, all effects of that power are treated separately.
(The consensus position)

My personal take is that #2 is slightly inconsistent, though I've been harassed for saying so in the past. The basis for #2 is "anything that results from the power should be considered within the power"...by that logic, I see no reason why powers that call a new power are treated separately.

Example: I make an opportunity attack, to make a normal MBA with a lightning weapon, that slides due to Mark of Storm. Interpretation 1 would say the slide is completely separate, because it's not written in any power. Interpretation 2 says the slide is part of the MBA, because it is a direct result of using the MBA power. I say it's part of the OA, because it's a direct result of using the OA power.

For those that disagree: what logic are you using?
The thing is, Plague, there's nothing in the text of the abilities that makes Mark of Storm any different from Eldritch Strike.



Yes there is one very important difference, only one of them is a power that slide, the other doesn't say it makes one.

Not because when you hit a creature and that another game element let you slide it when you do so  inherently makes it part of said power or attack. Its just ''when you do Y, X happens''.

Additionally, if you crit and use Mercy's Reward, the triggering attack doesn't become a Healing Power just because you were allowed to spend a healing surge.

The Feats are full of ''when you do Y, X happens'' for a veriety of actions taking places, enabling a veriety of other things to happen, and these aren't necessarly  inherently part of the event or action that enabled them to happen. They are just enablers or timing telling you when the Feat's benefit can be used or come into play, similar to how a trigger work.


Mark of Storm's Benefit: Whenever you hit an enemy with a thunder or lightning power, you can slide that enemy 1 square.

Eldritch Strike's Hit: 1[W] + Charisma or Constitution modifier damage, and you slide the target 1 square.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Sorry, hard to tell who is replying to what when you aren't quoting or otherwise indicating who you are responding to.

Anyway, the argument is simple: Does Crippling Crush work because it says it does, or does it work because it has to? I'm arguing the former, you apparently think it's the later. Or to be even more specific, ignoring if the power has a Slide to begin with, can Mark of Storm's Slide be augmented by a Staggering Weapon or Superior Implement with the Forceful Property or Rushing Cleats (assuming the attack is appropriate)? If you answer yes, then you have to also agree that UT's Damage Roll is a "Damage Roll caused by a Power" and thus any applicable bonuses will add to it. If you answer no, then anything that isn't worded "your power/attack does X" (ie. all that stuff I listed in my earlier post, and hundreds more effects) doesn't also become part of the power and in many cases ends up with 0 effect (like crippling crush) as a result; unless you want to argue "it works because it has to in order to do anything", which is a complete departure from RAW.

An effect that isn't otherwise part of a Power, that occurs when you use the Power in some manner, and doesn't have it's own action/attack/power type, is either considered to be part of the Power for all other purposes, or it isn't. We all know what the concensus on this issue is, stop trying to create an exception just because it makes Wild Sorcs better.



There is precedence for separate actions to not be included as part of a power.  When Essentials came out with the Knight, the Knight has a stance called Hammer Hands, which says that when you hit with an MBA, you can push the target 1 square.  This push does not trigger things which trigger when you hit a creature and push that creature because the stance's push happens after the MBA has resolved.

Is this similar to what is being discussed here?  If not, then why not? 
Let me know if I misrepresent anything:

Feats that modify powers when those powers are used and a power calling on a new power are not the same thing.


Is this similar to what is being discussed here?  If not, then why not? 


Its similar. Hammer Hands is a game element that let you push an enemy you hit and then shift. The fact that it is done as a Free action is irrevelent IMO. Other game elements such as Feats discussed here simply have those seperate instance of Forced Movement happen using no action. But they are not necessarly part of the power or action that enablde them to be used.

Unless the game element directly change the trigerring power in some fashion, it is dissociated from it and is an event or action that simply occur on its own.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Feats that modify powers when those powers are used and a power calling on a new power are not the same thing.

Plague's argument: you use a lightning power. You slide due to Mark of Storm. Nothing in the power says to slide; it's the feat that is doing the slide part. Thus there is no reason to consider the power to be "a power that slides."

Your counterargument: When you use the power, the target is slid. The slide is a consequence of your power usage; it happens if and only if you hit with the power. Therefore, the power is sliding them.

Am I correct so far? Or is there more to the argument? 
The slide is part of the power, because it modifies something the power does. It is part of the same action.

If a power tells you to use another power, the power rules come into play, which specify that if you are told to use a power, the action type will be stated and if no action type is stated, it is no action... but it is always a separate action. There is no using two powers in the same action.

Since those are two separate areas of the rules, any comparison between the two is null. That was my point. To draw an analogy between the logic of powers, which have their own rules, and the logic feats, which also have their own rules, is invalid reasoning. Since that was your reasoning, it needed to be corrected.
If a power tells you to use another power, the power rules come into play, which specify that if you are told to use a power, the action type will be stated and if no action type is stated, it is no action... but it is always a separate action. There is no using two powers in the same action.

Um... this is not correct at all.

There is no such thing as "a no action." That is not an action type. "No Action" literally means just that. Saying that it's a separate action is just wrong; it does not require any action at all, let alone a separate one.

When you use the OA power, the MBA occurs within the same Opportunity Action. Two powers, same action.
The slide is part of the power, because it modifies something the power does. It is part of the same action.



Where do you read that ?

Mark of Storm doesn't say the Slide is part of the trigerring power at all, nor does it modify anything the trigerring power does. It also doesn't say its part of the same action neither.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

There is no such thing as "a no action." That is not an action type. "No Action" literally means just that. Saying that it's a separate action is just wrong; it does not require any action at all, let alone a separate one.

When you use the OA power, the MBA occurs within the same Opportunity Action. Two powers, same action.

I know what "No action" means, thanks. It means the act doesn't require an action, but that does not mean it isn't separate. Cause it is.

No. As it stands, RAW, the Opportunity Attack power grants a No Action MBA. Side effect of the stupid decision to make OA a power, but that still isn't relevant to the discussion, because powers and feats do not have the same rules.



Separate effect, but not a separate *action.* Got'cha. You're normally more careful with your choice of wording, so I took it at face value.

Here's my problem (and you may well have a good response, but I haven't seen it yet): What rule are you using to determine that a Mark of Storm slide is part of the same action, whereas the MBA from the OA power isn't? Neither one is explicit in the rules (as Plague is pointing out), so what chain of reasoning are you using that would apply to one but not the other?