Glancing blow is a trap.

You need to roll 10 or higher for it to work.  The human fighters hit every monster a 10.  Ergo, it will never come into play.

(Dwarf fighter hits all but 1.  But will at level 4.)

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

every CURRENT monster in the bestiary with their current stat blocks and the fighters current to-hit.
Assuming the fighters to-hit drops by 2 points, it costs the Slayer a lvl1 feat to be able to deal pitiful damage when rolling a 10/11/12 against a handful of creatures. In 17 out of 20 cases the fighter has no benefit from the feat at all even if he encounters a hard to hit enemy. Even then he only rolls the dice as damage and does not really hit.

The feat is nearly useless and needs revision.
Yeah - I have to think they meant you hit AC 10 rather than roll a 10.  Because this is only useful against very high AC monsters otherwise.


Which does make it situationally useful (it might be about the only way to consistantly damage them with bounded accuracy) - but not useful enough to warrant taking a slot.


Imho.


Carl   
Yeah - I have to think they meant you hit AC 10 rather than roll a 10.  Because this is only useful against very high AC monsters otherwise.


Which does make it situationally useful (it might be about the only way to consistantly damage them with bounded accuracy) - but not useful enough to warrant taking a slot.


Imho.


Carl   



At AC levels where the Fighter with his increased accuracy cannot hit the enemy on a significant number of 10+ rolls, the Rogue is totally screwed. They cannot introduce such monsters without seriously hampering other weapon-using classes, that do not have a mechanic to deal with it. This is why AC values will stay in a range where the Fighter will hit the monster anyway on a roll of 10. 
I noticed this last night. My play is to have it work on a roll of 5 and see how that pans out. It's still less than good, but at least it's not completely useless.
I'll probably just apply it to all misses, unless you roll a natural 1.
I'll probably just apply it to all misses, unless you roll a natural 1.

They had that last playtest (Str damage on a miss).  Some people didn't like it because they though it was unrealistic (Which i compleatly disagree with.  Dodging or defecting a blow can still easily hurt), so they changed it to "must be a good attack, but not connect".

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I'll probably just apply it to all misses, unless you roll a natural 1.

They had that last playtest (Str damage on a miss).  Some people didn't like it because they though it was unrealistic (Which i compleatly disagree with.  Dodging or defecting a blow can still easily hurt), so they changed it to "must be a good attack, but not connect".



It only didn't make sense to the "a hit does physical wounds" crowd.  To the "a hit is just fatigue/luck/scratches until the negatives" crowd, it made perfect sense.  Normally, at least to the latter camp, a miss is an attack so weak that it takes no effort to dodge/block... but a Slayer's reaping strike *always* takes at least a *little* effort to dodge/block.

I think I'll stick with the initial Reaper effect, thanks.

Wounds Module [updated for Basic]

Proficiency Module

I'll probably just apply it to all misses, unless you roll a natural 1.

They had that last playtest (Str damage on a miss).  Some people didn't like it because they though it was unrealistic (Which i compleatly disagree with.  Dodging or defecting a blow can still easily hurt), so they changed it to "must be a good attack, but not connect".



It only didn't make sense to the "a hit does physical wounds" crowd.  To the "a hit is just fatigue/luck/scratches until the negatives" crowd, it made perfect sense.  Normally, at least to the latter camp, a miss is an attack so weak that it takes no effort to dodge/block... but a Slayer's reaping strike *always* takes at least a *little* effort to dodge/block.

I think I'll stick with the initial Reaper effect, thanks.

The inital reaper effect was a bit strong, and would be extra strong with the reduced HP.

I like the die roll.  Now a kobold has a chance of not auto-dying.  Not likely, but possible.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

question if a monster has a power that can turna hit into a miss can you still use glancing blow to turn it into a glancing blow.

and does a glancing blow still count as a hit for things that trigger on a hit ?
 
question if a monster has a power that can turna hit into a miss can you still use glancing blow to turn it into a glancing blow.

and does a glancing blow still count as a hit for things that trigger on a hit ?
 

1) Yes, assuming you rolled a 10+ but i don't see any powers like that.

2) No.  It's simply 1d6 damage on a miss (but only against 1 creature, if your the dwarf fighter, and you rolled exactly a 10).

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

So where does it stand, that you have to roll at least a natural 10?
My thoughts are, that to roll at least 10, means, bonuses are included.
I'll probably just apply it to all misses, unless you roll a natural 1.

They had that last playtest (Str damage on a miss).  Some people didn't like it because they though it was unrealistic (Which i compleatly disagree with.  Dodging or defecting a blow can still easily hurt), so they changed it to "must be a good attack, but not connect".



It only didn't make sense to the "a hit does physical wounds" crowd.  To the "a hit is just fatigue/luck/scratches until the negatives" crowd, it made perfect sense.  Normally, at least to the latter camp, a miss is an attack so weak that it takes no effort to dodge/block... but a Slayer's reaping strike *always* takes at least a *little* effort to dodge/block.

I think I'll stick with the initial Reaper effect, thanks.

The inital reaper effect was a bit strong, and would be extra strong with the reduced HP.

I like the die roll.  Now a kobold has a chance of not auto-dying.  Not likely, but possible.


I can grant that Reaper was maybe too powerful for 1st level (auto-kills are kinda boring), but as a 2nd or 3rd level manuever, it should be just fine.

This brings up another point, though... should CS manuevers have levels?  I think they should.  If they don't, then CS threatens to turn into bonus feats in disguise.  I don't want to still be choosing "1st level powers" at 9th level. ::bleh::

Wounds Module [updated for Basic]

Proficiency Module

the only difference is that with CS, other classes don't have access to those feats, and the fighter has to activly choose them, allowing them to be more powerful than your regular feat.

also keep in mind that the fighter is limited in useing his CS manuevers each turn.
the only difference is that with CS, other classes don't have access to those feats, and the fighter has to activly choose them, allowing them to be more powerful than your regular feat.

also keep in mind that the fighter is limited in useing his CS manuevers each turn.



That's fine, but would a wizard or cleric be happy if they had only 1st level spells to choose from as they leveled up?  Why should the Fighter be happy with just 1st level feats manuevers forever?  IMO, some manuevers need to be clearly more powerful than other manuevers, and they need to be accessible only after a certain level.  Just like spells.

Wounds Module [updated for Basic]

Proficiency Module

There might be maneuvers later on that require spending more than one die, which would effectively make them "higher level."  But right now there are plenty that you can just dump more dice into, which seems to me to scale just fine.

"Edison didn't succeed the first time he invented Benjamin Franklin, either." Albert the Alligator, Walt Kelly's Pogo Sunday Book  
The Core Coliseum: test out your 4e builds and fight to the death.

There might be maneuvers later on that require spending more than one die, which would effectively make them "higher level."  But right now there are plenty that you can just dump more dice into, which seems to me to scale just fine.



^This. From what I can see you do unlock more manouvers as you level up- but as of now we only have moves up to level five.
the only difference is that with CS, other classes don't have access to those feats, and the fighter has to activly choose them, allowing them to be more powerful than your regular feat.

also keep in mind that the fighter is limited in useing his CS manuevers each turn.



That's fine, but would a wizard or cleric be happy if they had only 1st level spells to choose from as they leveled up?  Why should the Fighter be happy with just 1st level feats manuevers forever?  IMO, some manuevers need to be clearly more powerful than other manuevers, and they need to be accessible only after a certain level.  Just like spells.




i don't know how your doing maneuvers, but the class write up details that you get them at different levels....
the only difference is that with CS, other classes don't have access to those feats, and the fighter has to activly choose them, allowing them to be more powerful than your regular feat.

also keep in mind that the fighter is limited in useing his CS manuevers each turn.



That's fine, but would a wizard or cleric be happy if they had only 1st level spells to choose from as they leveled up?  Why should the Fighter be happy with just 1st level feats manuevers forever?  IMO, some manuevers need to be clearly more powerful than other manuevers, and they need to be accessible only after a certain level.  Just like spells.

Even if they are limited to "level 1 powers", it's still quite good, because you get extra dice to chain them.

It's easy to imaging a higher level fighter doing a move, jab, knockdown, shift, second move all in one turn.  And they can do that every turn.

That said, i could see "spend 3 dice to daze" and the like.  I actually kinda wish they added those already.  Like knockprone "When you hit an enemy less then 2 sizes larger then you, you can spend 1 dice to knock prone.  If the enemy is 2 sizes larger, you can spend 2 dice.  3 sizes larger, 3 dice, ect.."

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

How about this for Glancing Blow:

Benefit: Once per turn when you miss a creature with a weapon attack you may spend expertise dice to add to your attack roll.  If you hit with the modified roll you deal half damage, but the glancing blow has none of the attack's other effects and is not considered a hit.
as mello cautions

we have been given a taste, that doesn't mean this is final.


one of the biggest arguments in playtest 1 was "the fighter is terrible, i give up" and lo and behold, the fighter is now probably the funnest class in the game right now, AND aside from picking spells, takes the longest to roll up / is the most complicated to play.

my guess for playtest 3 is going to be more levels, more feats, more of the stuff they have allready for more customization.

so what i'm saying is, hold on to your knickers, they probably allready have higher CS value maneuvers in the works.

-edit-

laptop keyboard drops letters on me all the time.
How about this for Glancing Blow:

Benefit: Once per turn when you miss a creature with a weapon attack you may spend expertise dice to add to your attack roll.  If you hit with the modified roll you deal half damage, but the glancing blow has none of the attack's other effects and is not considered a hit.




i like, but i propose we simplify

i you miss, you can roll a CS for damage, this attack is not considered a hit.

this will scale with your CS, so it'll stay scaled late game.
i like, but i propose we simplify

i you miss, you can roll a CS for damage, this attack is not considered a hit.

this will scale with your CS, so it'll stay scaled late game.



I choose half damage for a few reasons, mostly because the ability I wrote does scale with CS.  The more (and larger) dice you spend with Glancing Blow increase the chance to deal damage, but it caps out.  If both the chance and damage were dependent on the number of dice you spent it would encourage you too strongly to spend a lot of dice, even on a close miss.  This way it requires more expertise to turn a wild miss into something, but you don't want to spend more than the minimum.  Finally, glancing blows with big weapons hurt more with this system, which also seems appropriate.

Your system is very much like the Reaper feat from the first playtest.  People had complaints about that because they disliked the idea that a miss could hurt, and it made it trivial to take out minions.
i like, but i propose we simplify

i you miss, you can roll a CS for damage, this attack is not considered a hit.

this will scale with your CS, so it'll stay scaled late game.



I choose half damage for a few reasons, mostly because the ability I wrote does scale with CS.  The more (and larger) dice you spend with Glancing Blow increase the chance to deal damage, but it caps out.  If both the chance and damage were dependent on the number of dice you spent it would encourage you too strongly to spend a lot of dice, even on a close miss.  This way it requires more expertise to turn a wild miss into something, but you don't want to spend more than the minimum.  Finally, glancing blows with big weapons hurt more with this system, which also seems appropriate. 




true, you could limit it once per turn though, it still would make less sense in the bigger weapon department, but i'm just a fan of keeping things simple and easy lol.
Point of Order - there are no minions in ddn. Not yet, anyway.

EDIT: also, minions are not killed on a miss, even if it deals damage. That's part of their rule.
Point of Order - there are no minions in ddn. Not yet, anyway.

EDIT: also, minions are not killed on a miss, even if it deals damage. That's part of their rule.

Having 3 HP means your (effectivly) a minion.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Point of Order - there are no minions in ddn. Not yet, anyway.

EDIT: also, minions are not killed on a miss, even if it deals damage. That's part of their rule.

Having 3 HP means your (effectivly) a minion.



Not exactly. I get what you're saying though, so I won't argue too much. But do remember that their actual HD is a d6 and you *can* roll it instead of taking the automatic 3.
Point of Order - there are no minions in ddn. Not yet, anyway.

EDIT: also, minions are not killed on a miss, even if it deals damage. That's part of their rule.

Having 3 HP means your (effectivly) a minion.



Not exactly. I get what you're saying though, so I won't argue too much. But do remember that their actual HD is a d6 and you *can* roll it instead of taking the automatic 3.

True.  You can survive miss effects and the like.

But basic attacks are doing 1d6+4.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

i forgot you can roll creatures HD.... im going to start doing that!
I had my first playtest with the August packet, and one of my player's rolled up a Hill Dwarf Fighter Bounty Hunter Survivor with the Slayer fighting style.  He looks up Glancing Blow, and when I point out how useless it is in the playtest, he comes up with this houserule we used for the game:

If you miss your target by its armor bonus (natural included), if any, you can spend the expertise die to do damage.   

Example: Goblin, Dex 13 (+1), AC 13 (leather, shield)

Attack roll = 11 or less (miss)
Attack roll = 12 glancing blow option
Attack roll = 13 or highter (damage as normal)

Kinda clunky, I know, so milage may vary, but it actually happened once during the game, and the imagery of his axeblade sliding off the leather armor and doing damage or whatever, was nice.

I know this houserule means better armor increases the usefullness of the maneuver, but my player thought, "hey, just because I'm wearing armor doesn't mean it doesn't hurt to some degree."

Anyway, thought I'd share.   
  
I had my first playtest with the August packet, and one of my player's rolled up a Hill Dwarf Fighter Bounty Hunter Survivor with the Slayer fighting style.  He looks up Glancing Blow, and when I point out how useless it is in the playtest, he comes up with this houserule we used for the game:

If you miss your target by its armor bonus (natural included), if any, you can spend the expertise die to do damage.   

Example: Goblin, Dex 13 (+1), AC 13 (leather, shield)

Attack roll = 11 or less (miss)
Attack roll = 12 glancing blow option
Attack roll = 13 or highter (damage as normal)

Kinda clunky, I know, so milage may vary, but it actually happened once during the game, and the imagery of his axeblade sliding off the leather armor and doing damage or whatever, was nice.

I know this houserule means better armor increases the usefullness of the maneuver, but my player thought, "hey, just because I'm wearing armor doesn't mean it doesn't hurt to some degree."

Anyway, thought I'd share.   
  



Against the goblin, your fighter still has an advantage only in 1 out of 20 rolls. For opponents with higher AC bonus, he miraculously gets higher milage from the feat. This also means that the mileage you will get from this feat will increase when opponents grow in level and have a higher AC bonus. This goes until the point where they have, say 10 AC bonus and you can use glancing blow every time. 

Why not let people use it every time on a miss or lower the necessary roll to 5 or something? It is a much easier way to make glancing blow actually useful without having an unwieldy rule that also scales with level.

I agree that lowering the requirement of 10 on the d20 to 5 is an easier solution.  In fact, against the goblin, the player would gain a 2 in 20 chance to use the maneuver.  This still seems to scale with higher ACs, though, doesn't it?  Its early and I may not be thinking straight.

Anyway, I did suggest to the player that we should try lowering the 10 on a d20 to a 5, or something like if you miss by 3, etc.  The player, however, had a hard time with this because the term "Glancing Blow", to him, meant you at least hit the target, not just miss it entirely.  As such, the "only glancing blow if missing AC bonus" thingy made him feel that the maneuver matched its name.

For him, I guess, changing the name of the maneuver to match the game effect, might sit better.
 
The player also suggested maybe leave Glancing Blow as is, just make it available at a latter level when you're facing beasties with higher ACs.

We still had a great time with the game.  For us, it felt like it was heading in the right direction.

I'm curious to see if and what the developers decide on as an official solution.    

    

They could make Glancing Blow work on any attack that misses unless your attack roll fails by 10 or more, in which case you miss completely. A roll of a natural 1 would always miss completely. This is just an idea I came up with, I haven't really looked too deeply into the math of it. Maybe failing the attack by 5 or less would be a more appropriate threshold.

Another trap combat maneuver is Cleave. It only triggers when you drop a creature to 0, which is way too situational. Plus, you probably already spent your combat maneuver dice on the attack that just dropped the creature to 0, leaving you unable to use them on Cleave. They should change it to "you can spend a single expertise die to make your attack hit two adjacent creatures. Roll the attack only once and compare that to each creature's AC to see if you hit." Great Cleave could allow you to spend multiple expertise dice to hit a number of extra adjacent creatures equal to the dice spent.

I'm amazed that there are so many people wanting to make things take longer in combat .. 
It's like they miss 4e or something :D

Seriously though, the Reaper in the first packet was boring, but fast.
Glancing Blow  -- even as a trap, it's another die-roll, and every "fix" to it has suffered from more die-rolls, or calculations or other things that slow things down.  

Despite Titanium Dragons assertions that complexity is universally bad for a game, it seems like we all seem to want to add it in. Perhaps we can't believe things are realistic, or balanced enough without it (depending on which camp you're in).

I'm guessing Glancing Blow was intended as a "50% of the time, you still do damage when you miss" feat. The problem here is that they used the same die roll to determine hit/miss.  That was an oversight.  Either they need to drop the "50% of the time" component (or reduce the original target roll to AC10 instead). OR they can make another roll -- (flip a coin or roll d20+0 vs DC10).  

 
You could easily fix it without adding complexity, or even another die roll.  Like so:

<strong>Benefit:&nbsp;</strong> Once per turn when you miss a target with a weapon attack, you can spend an expertise die to deal damage to the target equal to your Strength modifier.
There's no reason it shouldn't work every time, and no reason it should deal variable damage.
If your position is that the official rules don't matter, or that house rules can fix everything, please don't bother posting in forums about the official rules. To do so is a waste of everyone's time.
You could easily fix it without adding complexity, or even another die roll.  Like so:

<strong>Benefit:&nbsp;</strong> Once per turn when you miss a target with a weapon attack, you can spend an expertise die to deal damage to the target equal to your Strength modifier.
There's no reason it shouldn't work every time, and no reason it should deal variable damage.




on the contrary, it shouldn't work every time, and it should deal variable damage, what is your reasoning for it not?

the dice tell us on what degree was the missed glancing blow actually a miss, and how much force was transfered, that makes combat interesting.
on the contrary, it shouldn't work every time, and it should deal variable damage, what is your reasoning for it not?

the dice tell us on what degree was the missed glancing blow actually a miss, and how much force was transfered, that makes combat interesting.

My reasoning is, it speeds up gameplay and saves the rest of the party from having to wait while you fumble wih your dice.

The amount of damage is so small that making it variable is a big waste of time.  Rolling extra dice it not fun for anyone but the guy doing the rolling.  And a lot of times, not even for him.
If your position is that the official rules don't matter, or that house rules can fix everything, please don't bother posting in forums about the official rules. To do so is a waste of everyone's time.
on the contrary, it shouldn't work every time, and it should deal variable damage, what is your reasoning for it not?

the dice tell us on what degree was the missed glancing blow actually a miss, and how much force was transfered, that makes combat interesting.

My reasoning is, it speeds up gameplay and saves the rest of the party from having to wait while you fumble wih your dice.

The amount of damage is so small that making it variable is a big waste of time.  Rolling extra dice it not fun for anyone but the guy doing the rolling.  And a lot of times, not even for him.




the way i was saying was ONE roll, if you don't have the dexterity for 1 roll to take a second or two you might be full potato, no offence meant to potatos.
My reasoning is, it speeds up gameplay and saves the rest of the party from having to wait while you fumble wih your dice.

The amount of damage is so small that making it variable is a big waste of time.  Rolling extra dice it not fun for anyone but the guy doing the rolling.  And a lot of times, not even for him.

Well, one of the big complaints with the last playtest was that, in some cases, the fighter didn't even have to roll, he could just say, "I kill a kobold."  And that was boring to some people.  Now, even if they don't have any other maneuvers and thus no incentive to save their expertise die, they still need to roll at least a certain AC and still roll damage, which helps keep them engaged.

Also, when fighters get up to higher levels, they get lots of big dice--I understand that the PA/PVP podcast, which I haven't heard yet, mentions 4d12.  That's a not-insignificant amount of damage.

I'm voting in favor of, "must hit at least AC 10."  It's possible to miss, but it won't happen often, and less than AC 10 is basically a total whiff.

"Edison didn't succeed the first time he invented Benjamin Franklin, either." Albert the Alligator, Walt Kelly's Pogo Sunday Book  
The Core Coliseum: test out your 4e builds and fight to the death.

If you miss and your roll is even, you should be allowed to glancing blow, burning any number of CS dice to deal that much damage.

This means that the roll does something, and it happens about half of the time on a miss.

Also note that this synergizes really nicely with two weapon fighting.  If both attacks miss, there is a 75% chance you can burn your CS dice for *full* damage (half damage only applies to hits with TWF feats).

Suppose a 50-50 chance to hit.  50% chance of half damage (including CS), 25% chance of full damage (half CS dice), and 12.5% chance of full CS damage with TWF+Slayer.  This gives us .5*weapon damage/2 + .25*weapon  damage + .5/2 * CS + .25/2 * CS + .25/2 * CS = .5 weapon damage + .5 * CS.  Ie, TWF doesn't sacrifice average damage anymore, while it still reduces damage variance, under this model.
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