Problem with "Spells Known"

I am preparing to run a game and loving what I see in this playtest so far, fun fun stuff. BUT First player of mine decides she wants to play a Cleric of the "Spells and healy" kind and as its part of a play test and so I can run encounters better Im doing the character creation one on one with each player but we have come to her spells.

Yup we have a list of spells she might know and some minor ones given by domain ect though we can't find anywhere how many at first level nor how many and levels past that that she acually "knows". to clarify what accually is in her spellbook so to speak that she can prepare. The spell prep sounds good if I knew how many she knows.

I really hope im not reading it all wrong but Ive had 3 people looking for it and not a spark of hope... Helps me internet and Wizards.
I'm not sure what you are talking about here. The first page of the Classes PDF shows how many spells per day the Cleric can cast. If you are asking how many they totally know, then I am sure they are like all previous editions. Clerics know all spells of their appropriate level. They pick any of them on the list to memorize. Only Wizards have to pick what goes in their spellbook and have to add to that as they adventure.
Clerics know the list, but prepare x per day (based on level) plus their domain spell.
And they don't 'forget' the spell when they cast it.



If they can prepare three spells a day of a given level, they can also cast three spells a day of that level (Cleric table).  

These can be three of the same (prepared) spell or three different (prepared) spells.


Carl  

      
I am not talking about spell preperation, I understand how that works but from what you are saying once any given spell level is available (able to cast, WIS and level permitting, the cleric in question just simply understands all of them and has the ability to cast any of them with no beforehand use of such a spell.

To me that sounds just a little silly. You may argue "powers granted from a god" but still even in a fantasy setting thats abit of a stretch.

Am I correct in how I'm interupreting these answers?

Because TBH if this "I understand them just cause I do" thing is the case I will have to implement a sort of "house rule".

Oh and BTW I looked up the Wizard and if they get so many spells in their spellbook and it just lists a common list but not accually how many they know at first level. 
if you want, make it so that your cleric has a spell book. but instead of a spell book, you name it a prayer book.

this way the cleric still has to collect ancient passeges from their most secret texts before they can properly memorize the spell
It really is "God crammed them in my head cuz I really like him."
Yeah that is over simplifying but that is how it works by the rules. However, the oldest rule of role-playing games is if you don't like it in your game change it. Nothing wrong with that.

WotC comes out with Complete Divine Power and it includes a whole bunch of Cleric spells. Pow! your Cleric player can now prepare ANY of those spells because Clerics have access to ALL spells on the Cleric spell list. (Unless you don't allow the book in your games.)

To say they "know" or "understand" their spells is kind of inaccurate though. They get spells from their deity and cast them, they never actually KNOW the spells. In 3.5, a Cleric who "grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features…" The Cleric knows nothing, he just uses what his deity gives him. Don't know if that clears up what's going on at all, but honestly restricting the list a little to fit the fluff in your head probably won't hurt anything. (How about just doubling the amount the Wizard gets? Which is 5 at lvl 1 btw, check under the Spellbook "benefit" section.)

It really is "God crammed them in my head cuz I really like him."
Yeah that is over simplifying but that is how it works by the rules. However, the oldest rule of role-playing games is if you don't like it in your game change it. Nothing wrong with that.



Yeah, just feels in a playtest at least a little against the spirit by inserting your own rules. Though IMO I think this is something that needs to be adressed, a simple line like "Gains 3+Wis mod worth of 1st level spells as 'Known' and gains 3 spells of any level they can cast on subsiquent levels". I think knowing all Orisons/Cantrips is OK but maybe not list the 'Special' ones you get fron backgrounds ect in the standard Minor spells list.

if you want, make it so that your cleric has a spell book. but instead of a spell book, you name it a prayer book.

this way the cleric still has to collect ancient passeges from their most secret texts before they can properly memorize the spell



I like the sound of that a Prayer Book but maybe not the can gain spells when adventureing cause thats kinda the Wizards thing and you don't wanna steal a Wizards thunder (pun intended)

WotC comes out with Complete Divine Power and it includes a whole bunch of Cleric spells. Pow! your Cleric player can now prepare ANY of those spells because Clerics have access to ALL spells on the Cleric spell list. (Unless you don't allow the book in your games.)

To say they "know" or "understand" their spells is kind of inaccurate though. They get spells from their deity and cast them, they never actually KNOW the spells. In 3.5, a Cleric who "grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features…" The Cleric knows nothing, he just uses what his deity gives him. Don't know if that clears up what's going on at all, but honestly restricting the list a little to fit the fluff in your head probably won't hurt anything. (How about just doubling the amount the Wizard gets? Which is 5 at lvl 1 btw, check under the Spellbook "benefit" section.)




Then they really aren't spells then, if they were Prayers or Intiventions or something that needs to be chosen by asking the Diety at the time or in Preperation Ok then it makes abit more sence but just to have the whole list from the get go every time just seems a little OP choice wise IMO. A smaller list that even that the god allows would be a better way to think of it and as the grow more faithful they gain more. and maybe the starting amount might be more than the Wizard because of the way the obtain them.
Thankyou I didn't read that Wizard section as close as I thought, 5 is a good number to start but maybe there too a way to take stats into account might be useful as is means not ever Wizard will know the same amount kinda thing is all I'm saying.

Then they really aren't spells then, if they were Prayers or Intiventions or something that needs to be chosen by asking the Diety at the time or in Preperation Ok then it makes abit more sence but just to have the whole list from the get go every time just seems a little OP choice wise IMO. A smaller list that even that the god allows would be a better way to think of it and as the grow more faithful they gain more. and maybe the starting amount might be more than the Wizard because of the way the obtain them.
Thankyou I didn't read that Wizard section as close as I thought, 5 is a good number to start but maybe there too a way to take stats into account might be useful as is means not ever Wizard will know the same amount kinda thing is all I'm saying.


Your actually a bit more acurate in the description than my ham-handed description (the stuff I bolded).
Back in 2nd (AD&D) cleric spells were more limited by the spheres of your god (dug out the old book to look it up). So if your spell fell into one of the spheres your god granted you had access to that prayer/spell/intervention/what-have-you. As of right now the spell list for Clerics is pretty limited so it doesn't seem that big a deal right now.

Then they really aren't spells then, if they were Prayers or Intiventions or something that needs to be chosen by asking the Diety at the time or in Preperation Ok then it makes abit more sence but just to have the whole list from the get go every time just seems a little OP choice wise IMO. A smaller list that even that the god allows would be a better way to think of it and as the grow more faithful they gain more. and maybe the starting amount might be more than the Wizard because of the way the obtain them.
Thankyou I didn't read that Wizard section as close as I thought, 5 is a good number to start but maybe there too a way to take stats into account might be useful as is means not ever Wizard will know the same amount kinda thing is all I'm saying.


Your actually a bit more acurate in the description than my ham-handed description (the stuff I bolded).
Back in 2nd (AD&D) cleric spells were more limited by the spheres of your god (dug out the old book to look it up). So if your spell fell into one of the spheres your god granted you had access to that prayer/spell/intervention/what-have-you. As of right now the spell list for Clerics is pretty limited so it doesn't seem that big a deal right now.



Yeah with these smaller lists atm it isnt so much of an issue I just could see it becoming one when the lists expand as we all know they will. Maybe even if they implement a Prayer Book even as an optional way of playing a cleric would be good I think it'd just be a matter of balancing how many speel they get how they get them ect.

Oh and a thought that occured to me between these post was that with a system like this (the hypothetical 'Prayer book'), that a cleric wont need to keep going into to the whole spell list in the books everytime they might want to change a spell. if they had what they knew/was granted there in their character sheet it would save alot of messing around especially with the long rest rules that means during games spells prepared might change a few times to suit the situations. Just a thought.
Then they really aren't spells then, if they were Prayers or Intiventions or something that needs to be chosen by asking the Diety at the time or in Preperation Ok then it makes abit more sence but just to have the whole list from the get go every time just seems a little OP choice wise IMO. A smaller list that even that the god allows would be a better way to think of it and as the grow more faithful they gain more. and maybe the starting amount might be more than the Wizard because of the way the obtain them.
Thankyou I didn't read that Wizard section as close as I thought, 5 is a good number to start but maybe there too a way to take stats into account might be useful as is means not ever Wizard will know the same amount kinda thing is all I'm saying.

Oh man, I'd be one happy panda if the words "spell" and "magic" only applied to Arcane magic. But alias, I think that is a little too much to ask for. Psionics not being magic is in reach though, and by golly I'm fighting for that. Plus that's the only one I really care about, but it would be cool if Divine and Primal specifically weren't "magic" either.

Rather or not it's OP, I honestly don't know. I only saw how it worked in 3.5. There were so many things that made Cleric broken in 3.5, I'm not sure if having access to all of the Cleric spells was a problem or not.
Then they really aren't spells then, if they were Prayers or Intiventions or something that needs to be chosen by asking the Diety at the time or in Preperation Ok then it makes abit more sence but just to have the whole list from the get go every time just seems a little OP choice wise IMO. A smaller list that even that the god allows would be a better way to think of it and as the grow more faithful they gain more. and maybe the starting amount might be more than the Wizard because of the way the obtain them.
Thankyou I didn't read that Wizard section as close as I thought, 5 is a good number to start but maybe there too a way to take stats into account might be useful as is means not ever Wizard will know the same amount kinda thing is all I'm saying.

Oh man, I'd be one happy panda if the words "spell" and "magic" only applied to Arcane magic. But alias, I think that is a little too much to ask for. Psionics not being magic is in reach though, and by golly I'm fighting for that. Plus that's the only one I really care about, but it would be cool if Divine and Primal specifically weren't "magic" either.

Rather or not it's OP, I honestly don't know. I only saw how it worked in 3.5. There were so many things that made Cleric broken in 3.5, I'm not sure if having access to all of the Cleric spells was a problem or not.



I primarily run 3.5 but haven't until now accually made a cleric and the only player I have had run one was quite the veteran so I assumed she knew what she was doing, so really until now I wasnt aware this was even something with the class. Though the way I look at it is imagine if a Wizard had access to prepare every spell they are able to cast... so yeah that was my train of thought. 

Rather or not it's OP, I honestly don't know. I only saw how it worked in 3.5. There were so many things that made Cleric broken in 3.5, I'm not sure if having access to all of the Cleric spells was a problem or not.



It may or may not be OP depending on the scope of the spells. Chances are it is in the hands of an expert player (see below).

In any case I'm not fond of this for:

a) It flattens out deveristy between characters of a same class. 

b) It promotes system mastery, with expert players being able to pick the right spell for each occasion. And it gets worse the more material becomes available along the edition lifecycle.
  
c) It moves choices from character creation and leveling up to in-game (during spell preparation), imposing overhead on the player and whole party.          
Well, Clerics having access to all spells has been around a while. I have never been a fan of gathering spells (for a wizard) and having to pick your spells before hand (wizard, again) and found it unfair that the Cleric, who is already a better fighter and can wear armor without spell interference), could pick their spells as they went along. I've always been a fan of the mana system for all magic classes (and this was before PC games made it hip :P). I mean, every book you read with a mage in it, you never see "Oh. Sorry, I can't help you. I don't have that particular spell memorized". No, you learned the spell, you know it. I wish they would just go to a mana based system and be done with it.

c) It moves choices from character creation and leveling up to in-game (during spell preparation), imposing overhead on the player and whole party.          



This.  This was the biggest problem we had in the long-running 3.0/3.5 campaigns we ran.  At higher levels, wait-on-the-cleric was a constant issue.  Luckily, we had conscientous players who would use Excel and have 'presets' and such, to speed things up.  It does hint at a design flaw, though.

Well, Clerics having access to all spells has been around a while. I have never been a fan of gathering spells (for a wizard) and having to pick your spells before hand (wizard, again) and found it unfair that the Cleric, who is already a better fighter and can wear armor without spell interference), could pick their spells as they went along. I've always been a fan of the mana system for all magic classes (and this was before PC games made it hip :P). I mean, every book you read with a mage in it, you never see "Oh. Sorry, I can't help you. I don't have that particular spell memorized". No, you learned the spell, you know it. I wish they would just go to a mana based system and be done with it.

I've played a campaign that was similar to the mana system.  Instead of mana points though, there were cool down times.  Higher level spells needed more time to cool down between casting times.  I saw that back in the 3.0 days.  It actaully was well adopted by the group.  Makes sense to me, a wizard who is tenth level should be able to cast 1st level spells almost continuously whereas 5th level spells would be exhausting.  And that might be a little too generous, but it certainly makes more sense than a spell caster blowing through all his spells in less than 10 minutes in an encounter and then not being able to cast anything more than a cantrip for the other 15 hours and ten minutes he's awake during that 24 hour period.
Another thing, I don't see having to choose spells on a daily basis a problem in my groups' campaigns.  Typically the cleric will pick his favorite spells and use those everyday.  Unless the campaign takes a very different direction, there isn't really any change. 

I like the change they made to allow any combination of spells to be cast once they're prepared and the level is met.  That makes sense.  I believe that took the role of spontanteous casting of being able to swap out any spell with a healing spell.  Once more spells and such are added to the new system, perhaps I might sing a different tune, but it has always seemed that wizard spells are better anyway, so it balances out.   
Wait. On page two of the "Classes" pdf under "Orisons" it says "You know one minor spell, chosen from the cleric's spell list."

Does this mean they changed it?
Wait. On page two of the "Classes" pdf under "Orisons" it says "You know one minor spell, chosen from the cleric's spell list."

Does this mean they changed it?



No that hasn't changed, we were talking about Spells though not the minor spells. I understand the confusion there but thankyou for pointing that out either way.
Clerics' access to the whole spell list in 3.5 was balanced by the fact that divine spells were generally worse or more limited than arcane.  If you could have your pick of lunch meats or choose from three cuts of steak...   


No that hasn't changed, we were talking about Spells though not the minor spells. I understand the confusion there but thankyou for pointing that out either way.



What I mean is that it seems to say "you [only] know one minor spell", and not the entire spell list.


No that hasn't changed, we were talking about Spells though not the minor spells. I understand the confusion there but thankyou for pointing that out either way.



What I mean is that it seems to say "you [only] know one minor spell", and not the entire spell list.



wizards get this too, although for them it means they have to travel all over the world to find the spells to put into their books.
So then how do clerics learn new spells?
So then how do clerics learn new spells?



They don't really thats what we have been dicussing. A cleric unlike a Wizard "knows" all their spells when they are able to cast them, they then prepare what exact spells for that day they want to use.

So they "have" their whole lists to draw from and thats was part of the discussions too.

As for Minor Spells a cleric gains one to begin with and one more at 5th and 9th levels but you also get them from like your cleric domain and such too. 
Oh I see! I was wondering why the PreGen Human Cleric had four orisons, but then I realised Initiate of the Faith granted two, the domain granted one, and the fourth is the chosen one you start off with.

Thanks for clarifying.