Experience per creature and experience to level is just ...... wrong.

You can now level in a single fight.  We've gone from "four encounters to level"to "four rounds to level".


This is not a good thing.


An 11-hit point hobgoblin now gives almost as much experience as the Ogre in the last packet - and a 13-hit point gnoll gives out considerably more.


10 hobgoblins and a kobold for spare change will now level a party of 5 characters from 1st to 2nd.


Is this what people really want?

Carl         
Not necessarily a bad thing.  It depends on what the individual group wants.  If they want to level up every game, enjoy.  If they don't, they don't have to.

I'm still a proponent of chucking XP en toto and simply including guidelines on when to level up.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Not necessarily a bad thing.  It depends on what the individual group wants.  If they want to level up every game, enjoy.  If they don't, they don't have to.

I'm still a proponent of chucking XP en toto and simply including guidelines on when to level up.



I agree. Even with Pathfinder, we don't use XP anymore. We just level up every 5-7 encounters. Why nitpick XP. Give monsters a build cost for building encounters, but ditch XP for players.
Worrying about XP numbers is about the least critical thing at this stage.  Leveling rate always has been and always will be completely arbitrary.  The only thing that ever really affected it was when gold/treasure progression was assumed as part of the leveling process (and even then a proper DM would modify treasure acquisition rates to match), and thankfully with Next's bounded accuracy system and general flexibility on magic items, that aspect of it is even less impactful.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Although I agree with that - in principle - I think that the numbers set expectations and tend to define the standard for the game.  And potentially leveling twice in the first night of play is not - I think - a good thing.


And, although it may not be the primary focus of this round of playtesting - seeing them change the numbers in this way if very disconcerting to me.  I had felt as if the numbers for hobgoblins et al needed to go down (and several others here had indicated the same) - and instead they went up.

If just the experience numbers for the creatures had changed - I would have assumed it was part of their attempt to make experience numbers useful in judging encounter difficulty.  This is a very good thing and the numbers are better in this regard than those in the original packet.   And if they had just lowered the experience needed to advance, I would have grumbled to myself (advancement has gotten faster in every edition since AD&D and its a trend I live with, even if I don't like it).


It was the compounded effect of both changes that seened ludicrous.  Now, maybe, there are two different people working on the two sets of numbers and they didn't catch how the two changes would interact - in which case they'll fix it in the next packet.  But in the absence of commentary by them, I have to assume all changes are intentional and I think that - regardless of the priority that aspect of the design may have, we need to assume all changes are intended for the final game and respond accordingly.  And, as I said, I don't like the effect of these two changes combined:  Either the experience values need to be reduced by some factor or the experience to level needs to be increased by that same factor.   

   
I'm also not entirely sure they have the curve right for encounter planning, but that I will be testing.  After all - there is not much difference between a creature with 1, 3 or 5 hit points - they all die to one hit, just as there is not much difference between 9, 11 and 13 - they all die to one hit by a fighter with deadly strike or a rogue with backstab or two hits by anyone else.

I don't think adding two hit points (hobgoblin to gnoll) is worthy of a jump from 320 xp to 450 xp.

I also think the Geli Cube is probably undervalued at 200 xp.  In fact - I'd rank a Geli Cube well above either a gnoll or a hobgoblin in terms of threat.  On the other hand, its rated as a level 2 solo and is worth less experience than a level 1 elite goblin leader (210 experience) - so the cube's value is probably wrong.


Or maybe its right and the rest are all wrong.....   
  
Carl   

It's kind of necessary in the playtest stage to level up quickly so you can actually experience all 5 levels within a couple sessions and give feedback on them.
It's kind of necessary in the playtest stage to level up quickly so you can actually experience all 5 levels within a couple sessions and give feedback on them.



I call bull honkey on that. If you want to level up quickly for play testing purposes, you just say, "Ok. That combat is done. Level your characters up and we'll try this combat now." You don't need to dumb down the XP for that. Besides they put the XP required for all three levels of play in the PDFs, meaning that it's what they expect it to be in the final product.
They have 5 levels of play, not 3. Why are you even in this forum if you haven't downloaded the latest pack?
They have 5 levels of play, not 3. Why are you even in this forum if you haven't downloaded the latest pack?



I meant 3 styles of Play. Easy, Average and Tough. And the DM Guide actually goes up to 10 levels.
 
I’ve removed content from this thread because harassment and trolling/baiting are violations of the Code of Conduct.

You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_...

Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.

If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the Report Post button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty. 
I see slams one way is okay. But, not both ways. Cool. Got it.
It's kind of necessary in the playtest stage to level up quickly so you can actually experience all 5 levels within a couple sessions and give feedback on them.



TRue - but that is not the way to do it.  You don't change a basic mechanic of the game for that purpose - because that makes the mechanic untestable.


You do it by just telling the DMs  - "We want you to cover a range of levels, so if you aren't playing enough to get to level five in the next month or so, level your parties up faster so they experience all levels of play."



Changing the mechanic is a non-sensible way of accomplishing that goal.  I have to assume it represents their current direction.  And I don't like it.

Either the experience for monsters has to be scaled down (proportionally) or the experience per level needs to go up.

Ca   
Carl, i understand your argument, but i think it's not so important.

XP is the one value in this game you can change without consequence to any other mechanic or system in the game.
I agree with Carl wholeheartedly. The argument that the players can always change the game to make it better is no excuse for bad game design. Just create your game well initially so the players won't have to worry about editing it. I've personally never used experience much for the past few years, but I don't think what they've done with experience is a good idea. Also the numbers of XP to level up are really random, why not just go with +1,000, +2,000 etc. If they wanted the players to level up faster just give them more experience. Which they have obviously done, perhaps to an excessive extent. Still, the ultimate end is, if you don't like it, change it. But I think WoTC should change it first, their new XP system is terrible. I agree that XP should be scrapped for guidelines for when to level up as well. It's simpler, faster, involves less bookeeping, and more balanced for every group.
Congratulations, you have found perhaps the biggest flaw with Bounded Accuracy: you're level 1, you sneak around and look for a monster that gives enough EXP to get you to level 2, and while it sleeps, you gut it.  Level up!  Or if you want a team effort, find a monster that gives 650 * the number of participants EXP, and with appropriate tactics, level up in one go.

With monsters not gaining significant amounts of HP to make up for the lack of defense increase, the DM now has to employ anti-magic sphere-style areas that are anti-stealth AND use non-monster obstacles JUST to prevent a level-up-per-encounter when playing by-the-rules.
Show

You are Red/Blue!
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.

You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what you create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.

D&D Home Page - What Monster Are You? - D&D Compendium

57047238 wrote:
If you're crossing the street and see a city bus barreling straight toward you with 'GIVE ME YOUR WALLET!' painted across its windshield, you probably won't be reaching for your wallet.
I Don't Always Play Strikers...But When I Do, I Prefer Vampire Stay Thirsty, My Friends
This is what I believe is the spirit of D&D 4E, and my deal breaker for D&D Next: equal opportunities, with distinct specializations, in areas where conflict happens the most often, without having to worry about heavy micromanagement or system mastery. What I hope to be my most useful contributions to the D&D Community: DM Idea: Collaborative Mapping, Classless 4E (homebrew system, that hopefully helps in D&D Next development), Gamma World 7E random character generator (by yours truly), and the Concept of Perfect Imbalance (for D&D Next and other TRPGs in development) Pre-3E D&D should be recognized for what they were: simulation wargames where people could tell stories with The Best Answer to "Why 4E?" Fun vs. Engaging
you mean the DM will be forced to use traps and have monsters set guards etc? GREAT

i'm sick and tired of walltzing through dungeons and hitting the same old encounter time and time again, good to see the DM's will have to be creative now, and not jsut the players.
you mean the DM will be forced to use traps and have monsters set guards etc? GREAT

i'm sick and tired of walltzing through dungeons and hitting the same old encounter time and time again, good to see the DM's will have to be creative now, and not jsut the players.


Except I'm talking about TROLLS employing GUARDS who have their own EXP as well, so the PCs don't even NEED to face the trolls to level up.

It's not forcing DMs to be creative, it's forcing DMs to change lore to stupid levels, simply because a CORE CONCEPT did not take EXP into account. 
Show

You are Red/Blue!
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.

You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what you create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.

D&D Home Page - What Monster Are You? - D&D Compendium

57047238 wrote:
If you're crossing the street and see a city bus barreling straight toward you with 'GIVE ME YOUR WALLET!' painted across its windshield, you probably won't be reaching for your wallet.
I Don't Always Play Strikers...But When I Do, I Prefer Vampire Stay Thirsty, My Friends
This is what I believe is the spirit of D&D 4E, and my deal breaker for D&D Next: equal opportunities, with distinct specializations, in areas where conflict happens the most often, without having to worry about heavy micromanagement or system mastery. What I hope to be my most useful contributions to the D&D Community: DM Idea: Collaborative Mapping, Classless 4E (homebrew system, that hopefully helps in D&D Next development), Gamma World 7E random character generator (by yours truly), and the Concept of Perfect Imbalance (for D&D Next and other TRPGs in development) Pre-3E D&D should be recognized for what they were: simulation wargames where people could tell stories with The Best Answer to "Why 4E?" Fun vs. Engaging
hey, if your party can sneak up and kill a troll, power to them

they deserved that level.
hey, if your party can sneak up and kill a troll, power to them

they deserved that level.


You know as much as I want to...  I can't argue with this.
I wish it was as simple as that.

The problem isn't so much the EXP granted per se, but
1) the widely varied EXP ranges
2) lack of real differentiation defenses-wise (including HP) across the levels

While I realize that a monster building guide might not be out yet, the very fact that these materials provide some VERY quirky monsters hints at this profoundly annoying possibility: that assigning monster EXP is purely at the DM's whim.

In which case, why the hell are we still using it?

I wouldn't really mind if monsters got an across-the-board +1 to all defenses every 5 or 6 (or even 10) levels, and a *little* bit of mathematical approximation on monster development; you know, an actual system, as opposed to a ragtag set of "guidelines" that make even 0E look better developed?

OH RIGHT.  The monster creation guide is currently set up as
1. imagine your monster
2. arbitrarily determine all its features based on how you'd imagine them to be
3. ??
4. Profit

Which means that it is completely legit to create a level 1 creature that has 9,999 to all stats and gives 2,000,000 EXP, and then throw it to the PCs... just because I imagined how a tamer version of Pun-Pun would look like, and the group just so happened to stumble upon Pun-Pun during his attempts to increase his stats even further (there, an in-game justification as to why they'd end up fighting Pun-Pun).

Good job, Mike.
Show

You are Red/Blue!
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.

You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what you create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.

D&D Home Page - What Monster Are You? - D&D Compendium

57047238 wrote:
If you're crossing the street and see a city bus barreling straight toward you with 'GIVE ME YOUR WALLET!' painted across its windshield, you probably won't be reaching for your wallet.
I Don't Always Play Strikers...But When I Do, I Prefer Vampire Stay Thirsty, My Friends
This is what I believe is the spirit of D&D 4E, and my deal breaker for D&D Next: equal opportunities, with distinct specializations, in areas where conflict happens the most often, without having to worry about heavy micromanagement or system mastery. What I hope to be my most useful contributions to the D&D Community: DM Idea: Collaborative Mapping, Classless 4E (homebrew system, that hopefully helps in D&D Next development), Gamma World 7E random character generator (by yours truly), and the Concept of Perfect Imbalance (for D&D Next and other TRPGs in development) Pre-3E D&D should be recognized for what they were: simulation wargames where people could tell stories with The Best Answer to "Why 4E?" Fun vs. Engaging
Congratulations, you have found perhaps the biggest flaw with Bounded Accuracy: you're level 1, you sneak around and look for a monster that gives enough EXP to get you to level 2, and while it sleeps, you gut it.  Level up!  Or if you want a team effort, find a monster that gives 650 * the number of participants EXP, and with appropriate tactics, level up in one go.

With monsters not gaining significant amounts of HP to make up for the lack of defense increase, the DM now has to employ anti-magic sphere-style areas that are anti-stealth AND use non-monster obstacles JUST to prevent a level-up-per-encounter when playing by-the-rules.



HP is one of the only things that IS supposed to scale significantly. A low level character will not cause enough damage to kill a high level target. This is NOT a flaw of bounded accuracy. Besides, I don't understand how increased defenses would help a helpless creature not get gutted.
EVERY DAY IS HORRIBLE POST DAY ON THE D&D FORUMS. Everything makes me ANGRY (ESPECIALLY you, reader)
Congratulations, you have found perhaps the biggest flaw with Bounded Accuracy: you're level 1, you sneak around and look for a monster that gives enough EXP to get you to level 2, and while it sleeps, you gut it.  Level up!  Or if you want a team effort, find a monster that gives 650 * the number of participants EXP, and with appropriate tactics, level up in one go.

With monsters not gaining significant amounts of HP to make up for the lack of defense increase, the DM now has to employ anti-magic sphere-style areas that are anti-stealth AND use non-monster obstacles JUST to prevent a level-up-per-encounter when playing by-the-rules.



HP is one of the only things that IS supposed to scale significantly. A low level character will not cause enough damage to kill a high level target. This is NOT a flaw of bounded accuracy. Besides, I don't understand how increased defenses would help a helpless creature not get gutted.


Except when you look at the playtest material, a low level character CAN cause enough damage to kill a high level target.  There is simply no real difference between a level 4 and a level 1 opponent beyond a FEW hit points.  In fact there is no monster EXP table, so any monster can give any amount of EXP -- see Orc vs. Gnoll vs. Troll. 
Show

You are Red/Blue!
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.

You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what you create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.

D&D Home Page - What Monster Are You? - D&D Compendium

57047238 wrote:
If you're crossing the street and see a city bus barreling straight toward you with 'GIVE ME YOUR WALLET!' painted across its windshield, you probably won't be reaching for your wallet.
I Don't Always Play Strikers...But When I Do, I Prefer Vampire Stay Thirsty, My Friends
This is what I believe is the spirit of D&D 4E, and my deal breaker for D&D Next: equal opportunities, with distinct specializations, in areas where conflict happens the most often, without having to worry about heavy micromanagement or system mastery. What I hope to be my most useful contributions to the D&D Community: DM Idea: Collaborative Mapping, Classless 4E (homebrew system, that hopefully helps in D&D Next development), Gamma World 7E random character generator (by yours truly), and the Concept of Perfect Imbalance (for D&D Next and other TRPGs in development) Pre-3E D&D should be recognized for what they were: simulation wargames where people could tell stories with The Best Answer to "Why 4E?" Fun vs. Engaging
Congratulations, you have found perhaps the biggest flaw with Bounded Accuracy: you're level 1, you sneak around and look for a monster that gives enough EXP to get you to level 2, and while it sleeps, you gut it.  Level up!  Or if you want a team effort, find a monster that gives 650 * the number of participants EXP, and with appropriate tactics, level up in one go.

With monsters not gaining significant amounts of HP to make up for the lack of defense increase, the DM now has to employ anti-magic sphere-style areas that are anti-stealth AND use non-monster obstacles JUST to prevent a level-up-per-encounter when playing by-the-rules.



HP is one of the only things that IS supposed to scale significantly. A low level character will not cause enough damage to kill a high level target. This is NOT a flaw of bounded accuracy. Besides, I don't understand how increased defenses would help a helpless creature not get gutted.


Except when you look at the playtest material, a low level character CAN cause enough damage to kill a high level target.  There is simply no real difference between a level 4 and a level 1 opponent beyond a FEW hit points.  In fact there is no monster EXP table, so any monster can give any amount of EXP -- see Orc vs. Gnoll vs. Troll. 



Yeah I did a math work up in another thread and it turns out only solos have decent hit points right up til around level 5. At that point it takes the Wizard a few spells to take out the regulars. Just the Flaming Sphere spell alone deals 28.86 over the course of 4 rounds and that's not counting the Wizard's ability to use another spell along side it for 3 rounds...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Yeah.  Experienced DMs know how to tweak XP and adjust rewards to reflect the pace at which he wants level advancement to go, but it's not fair to assume every DM is that knowledgable and prepared to put the work in.

Beyond that, XPs should reflect relative challenge of one creature compared to another.  If Monster A is worth 75 XPs and Monster B is worth 450, I would expect Monster B to be significantly more dificult than A.  

It simply is not the case at this point.  Give me One Orc right now over 8 Kobolds.  Yeah, individually, he's pretty nasty, but on whole, he's not that much worse.

In fact, a clever, prepared first level group could take down 5 orcs for almost 3/4ths a level much easier than 33 Kobolds that would be required for about the same XPs needless to say.  That's a whole lost of Mob Tactics (hate it as currently written) and Sling Shots (that are better to hit and do the same damage as Orc ranged attacks).

XP may not be of highest important at this stage, but it still needs to be looked at and worked on because it's still important in the long run.
I had a big problem with the xp per level.  Sure I can use my mighty DM powers to tell players "NO NO, YOU NO LEVEL YET!!! RAWR" but we have been (at least trying) to play the packets AS WRITTEN for testing purposes.  We try to keep house rules to a minimum until the game is fully released.  The players will level up way too quickly in the current rules, we were all a bit shocked when we saw the numbers.

I have no complaint about the actual xp value of creatures.  I understand that they are using it as an encounter building tool, i like that aspect of it just fine. 
I've never been a fan of giving XPs for killing monsters.

That just encourages players to 'clear the level' instead of work towards goals. The tipping point for me was when a player asked how many xps he could get for killing everyone in the town where the party had just finished saving the townsfolk from orcs. The same player wanted to wander around the forest and find random encounters till he leveled up.

I give xps for accomplishments. I know the historic way in D&D is to kill/get xp/repeat, but I play a game that is less combat driven. I don't want a group to skip RP and problem solving and want to jump into the fights. I've spent several sessions in a row without a fight, so I'd hate to have a game where the characters don't feel like the play time was rewarding.


An example from my one of my  'no XPs for killing monsters' sessions:

XP rewards for:     
Figuring out what happened to the blacksmiths daughter
Tracking the kidnappers to their camp
Defeating the leader of the kidnappers (dead or alive) 
Returning the missing girl alive

Bonus XP if they:
Figured out the reason for the kidnapping
Talked their way into extra rewards
Uncovered a villian in the town 
Anything random that suprised or impressed me       

While there were several fights in the adventure, only one gave XPs. The party raided the camp, but they would have gotten the same xps if they had found a way to trick the kidnappers or sneak the hostage out.

I've always prefered adventures where the characters optimized for combat were not the 'best' characters to have.         
I've never been a fan of giving XPs for killing monsters.

That just encourages players to 'clear the level' instead of work towards goals. The tipping point for me was when a player asked how many xps he could get for killing everyone in the town where the party had just finished saving the townsfolk from orcs. The same player wanted to wander around the forest and find random encounters till he leveled up.

I give xps for accomplishments. I know the historic way in D&D is to kill/get xp/repeat, but I play a game that is less combat driven. I don't want a group to skip RP and problem solving and want to jump into the fights. I've spent several sessions in a row without a fight, so I'd hate to have a game where the characters don't feel like the play time was rewarding.


An example from my one of my  'no XPs for killing monsters' sessions:

XP rewards for:     
Figuring out what happened to the blacksmiths daughter
Tracking the kidnappers to their camp
Defeating the leader of the kidnappers (dead or alive) 
Returning the missing girl alive

Bonus XP if they:
Figured out the reason for the kidnapping
Talked their way into extra rewards
Uncovered a villian in the town 
Anything random that suprised or impressed me       

While there were several fights in the adventure, only one gave XPs. The party raided the camp, but they would have gotten the same xps if they had found a way to trick the kidnappers or sneak the hostage out.

I've always prefered adventures where the characters optimized for combat were not the 'best' characters to have.         


That pretty much how Skill Challenges in 4E were supposed to work in theory: the DM sets up situations whose difficulty is based on the complexity of the given situation, the DM assigns an EXP value based on the determined difficulty, then when the players resolve the given situation, they gain the EXP alloted to the situation.  It's sad however, that there wasn't much talk on how to design skill challenges properly after that, so in practice the entire thing was looked upon unfavorably.

Heck, 13th Age arguably got it right: get rid of the damn EXP, have the DM level you up (even if it's in partial increments) when he says you level up.  That way, not only does the dev team not have to worry about the math behind monster and leveling EXP, but the DM is free to grant levels within a non-combat campaign.
Show

You are Red/Blue!
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.

You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what you create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.

D&D Home Page - What Monster Are You? - D&D Compendium

57047238 wrote:
If you're crossing the street and see a city bus barreling straight toward you with 'GIVE ME YOUR WALLET!' painted across its windshield, you probably won't be reaching for your wallet.
I Don't Always Play Strikers...But When I Do, I Prefer Vampire Stay Thirsty, My Friends
This is what I believe is the spirit of D&D 4E, and my deal breaker for D&D Next: equal opportunities, with distinct specializations, in areas where conflict happens the most often, without having to worry about heavy micromanagement or system mastery. What I hope to be my most useful contributions to the D&D Community: DM Idea: Collaborative Mapping, Classless 4E (homebrew system, that hopefully helps in D&D Next development), Gamma World 7E random character generator (by yours truly), and the Concept of Perfect Imbalance (for D&D Next and other TRPGs in development) Pre-3E D&D should be recognized for what they were: simulation wargames where people could tell stories with The Best Answer to "Why 4E?" Fun vs. Engaging
Yeah.  I don't remember which it was, but in some edition they suggested giving full XPs for overcoming encounters without combat that you would have given with combat.  I latched on to that right away and have been using it for years and years since.

But I've always given out RP XP, Quest XP, etc., and (to be honest) have regularly cut down on XP granted by combat.

Example:  Say the group is hired by a local lord to find out what's causing terribly diminished produce and strange deaths at some of the outlying farms under his control.  I quickly settle down and come up with some antagonists, hazards, etc., to fit the scenario.  I design some encounters (some combative, some non-) and then get a total XP pool that should be achieved for the entire "adventure."   We'll say it comes out to 4500 XPs.  Of that, say 3000 XPs will be in combat against likely hostile creature.  I then, usually, cut that in down to probably 1500 XPs (half) and then dole out the other 1500 through various quest rewards such as:

Did they rescue the farm family being held hostage by Rotleaf Goblins?  250 XPs there. 
Did they find a remedy for the curse on the land?  500 XPs there.
Did they drive off or slay the Rotleaf Hag that was behind it all?  500 XPs there.
Did they keep the lord updated and satisfied, interacted well with for their standing in the area?  250 XPs.

Tends to give players in my groups reasons to do more than monster hunt, but to really interact with the world and roleplay their heroic parts.

As they say, though, your milage may vary.
 
I've not had a chance yet to play the new packet (almost half my group had stomach issues the night we were supposed to start) but I have read it. The way I'm going to deal with the XP issue is that, while we're playtesting, use what they give us. If it stays this way, I'm sure as a DM, I can tell my players that we're still using either the 3.5 or 4e XP progression tables, and they'll be fine.

And yes, while you could just arbitrarily tell players when they level, I've always found that they would rather see for themselves how close they are, rather than rely on me to tell them. It functions as a sort of gauge of their success, and gives them something to work for. Just my preference I guess.
In the game linked in my signature you get no XP for monsters.

What you do get is quest and goal xp.

A goal might be to force the group of monsters to vacate the area they are in. You can accomplish this by killing them all, convincing them to leave, or surrender and kicking them out, or any combination of the previous.

It encourages the party to work toward story goals rather than kill counts...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
It's pretty easy to tweak the XP tables, once one understands how it is put together (the 7975 for level 5 is wrong, according to the math).

The Encounter Budget is based around four "normal" encounters to level up (XP-budget * party-size).  If you want your guys to level slower, just take the monsters' XP values and divide them by some number.  Half means eight encounters to level up, x0.4 makes ten encounters, etc.
Not necessarily a bad thing.  It depends on what the individual group wants.  If they want to level up every game, enjoy.  If they don't, they don't have to.

I'm still a proponent of chucking XP en toto and simply including guidelines on when to level up.



I agree. Even with Pathfinder, we don't use XP anymore. We just level up every 5-7 encounters. Why nitpick XP. Give monsters a build cost for building encounters, but ditch XP for players.



I use XP to keep track of a rather ecclectic campaign design style. Sometimes you get a few encounters in a row, sometimes they're roughly equal in threat, sometimes they vary wildly, sometimes you get more or less, sometimes a level comes primarily from non combat encounters, etc. Having XP for completing challenges just makes it easier to keep a tally.

Not to mention, rotating DMs in the same campaign is much easier with xp.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
I've always found that they would rather see for themselves how close they are, rather than rely on me to tell them.

Agreed.  Sometimes, it just creates that grown air of anticipation.  Oooh.  "I am only 450 XP from that next level.  I better start planning on what I might want or at see what I will get."  In our 4E campaign, two levels ago someone finished just 2 XPs short of their next level... and if nothing else, everyone got to have fun with that fact alone.

It's not important to the gameplay, but to the players, that visual confirmation of progression seems to work.
I don't think they're testing monster xp balance at this point.  It seems a bit "cart before the horse" to plot out how xp progression should go when you're still figuring out class features.

This is likely a very rough xp system, and will almost certainly be changed (again) in the next packet. 
'That's just, like, your opinion, man.'
I've always found that they would rather see for themselves how close they are, rather than rely on me to tell them.

Agreed.  Sometimes, it just creates that grown air of anticipation.  Oooh.  "I am only 450 XP from that next level.  I better start planning on what I might want or at see what I will get."  In our 4E campaign, two levels ago someone finished just 2 XPs short of their next level... and if nothing else, everyone got to have fun with that fact alone.

It's not important to the gameplay, but to the players, that visual confirmation of progression seems to work.



Also of note, it gives players the sense that their progress is not arbitrary, which I personally find valuable.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
I use XP because of personal experience. Back about 4 years ago I tried running two or three games based on leveling when I thought they should level. But it created a couple of problems that led to me just saying "screw it" and going back to XP. 

1) You can't, at least in my group you can't, reasonably expect people to just sit and wait for a level when they don't know when it's coming. My players started showing up to games going "Are we going to level this session?", which got old real fast. As well, at the end of the night if the players didn't level, especially if it had been more than a couple of sessions since they leveled, they would feel dissapointed. This blows for everyone.

2) Players were less enganged in the game. When they know it doesn't matter as much what they do as when you think it's time to level, then they visibly care less. The classic argument is that this fosters more RP by removing the want to fight all the time. But in my experience it also removes alot of everything :P The players don't try hard if they know a level is coming eventually no matter what they do.

My two copper.

On the subject of current XP rewards. They do seem a little high. But I expect tweaking before the final product, of course. 
My two copper.
It's pretty easy to tweak the XP tables, once one understands how it is put together (the 7975 for level 5 is wrong, according to the math).

The Encounter Budget is based around four "normal" encounters to level up (XP-budget * party-size).  If you want your guys to level slower, just take the monsters' XP values and divide them by some number.  Half means eight encounters to level up, x0.4 makes ten encounters, etc.



Tip for people as dumb as me:

After using this tip and dividing the monster xp numbers (or multiplying them by a number like 0.25) .... you have to then divide the encounter XP budget by the same #.   I'm embarrassed to say that this took me a minute, because I went from "divide kobold xp by 4 (for a 16 encounter slow-levelling game), so they're worth 17-18xp each, and my party of 5's budget is 825xp, I should throw almost 50 kobolds at them at level 1!!!  Wait.. uh..."

*headdesk*

I'm slow sometimes. 
It's pretty easy to tweak the XP tables, once one understands how it is put together (the 7975 for level 5 is wrong, according to the math).

The Encounter Budget is based around four "normal" encounters to level up (XP-budget * party-size).  If you want your guys to level slower, just take the monsters' XP values and divide them by some number.  Half means eight encounters to level up, x0.4 makes ten encounters, etc.



Tip for people as dumb as me:

After using this tip and dividing the monster xp numbers (or multiplying them by a number like 0.25) .... you have to then divide the encounter XP budget by the same #.   I'm embarrassed to say that this took me a minute, because I went from "divide kobold xp by 4 (for a 16 encounter slow-levelling game), so they're worth 17-18xp each, and my party of 5's budget is 825xp, I should throw almost 50 kobolds at them at level 1!!!  Wait.. uh..."

*headdesk*

I'm slow sometimes. 




you can't do that! if each kobold kills the wizard 47% of the time he'll die around 23 times over before leveling!
Tip for people as dumb as me:

After using this tip and dividing the monster xp numbers (or multiplying them by a number like 0.25) .... you have to then divide the encounter XP budget by the same #.   I'm embarrassed to say that this took me a minute, because I went from "divide kobold xp by 4 (for a 16 encounter slow-levelling game), so they're worth 17-18xp each, and my party of 5's budget is 825xp, I should throw almost 50 kobolds at them at level 1!!!  Wait.. uh..."

*headdesk*

I'm slow sometimes. 

you can't do that! if each kobold kills the wizard 47% of the time he'll die around 23 times over before leveling!

I literally laughed out loud at both of these. Laughing