No Dex to Damage for Longbow - Why play an Archer?

When I looked at the pregen archer in the second playtest, I was very disappointed. If the Archer does not even get a Dex-modifier to damage on longbow attacks, why not play a Cleric instead as a ranged combatant?

Even with Combat Superiority the Archer does only 1d8+1d6, average 8
The Cleric does 1d8 +4, average 8.5 with radiant lance.´And he can cast spells on top of that.

Combat Superiority is supposed to make the fighter superior in combat, not to replace a missing ability modifier to damage. 
On top of that, the Archer's Rapid Shot feat is nearly useless, since it only helps vs. extremely weak or nearly dead enemies. 

Please give the ranged weaponry a damage bonus from the ability modifier or ranged combatants will not be able to compete with the Cleric. And please make rapid shot more powerful and interesting.
"How to Play" p. 4, para. 6; Dexterity: Attacks:

"You add your Dexterity modifier to your attack and damage rolls for finesse weapons and missile weapons." 

Emphasis mine. I can only assume the pregen is a typo. 
i feel like i'm talking to a wall by now when i say that rapid shot is very useful.

think of poisons, think of reliable damage, think of vulnerability to elements, all of these things rapid shot can use.

also, i hardly doubt your cleric can ignore cover with an advantage at level 3 on every single attack.
Where are these pregens? I looked through and can't find them.
Where are these pregens? I looked through and can't find them.




in a seperate folder named "pre-gens"
i feel like i'm talking to a wall by now when i say that rapid shot is very useful.

You know that old joke; where the kid says "Doctor, Doctor! It hurts when I do this!" and the Doc says "Then don't do that"? Same idea here. 

Rapid Shot is of debatable usefulness right now. That may change later as options are added that can bolster it. 

also, i hardly doubt your cleric can ignore cover with an advantage at level 3 on every single attack.

Your diction is off here. You "hardly doubt"; that is to say, you don't doubt that the Cleric can do this?

Also, the Cleric doesn't need to ignore cover. He has Spiritual Hammer.

it's 4am

kindly excuse my diction.

also, 1d8 at a THIRD of the range that only moves 20 feet per round (yet still has to stay within 50 feet of you) does NOT make up for a ranged attack at 150 feet with automatic advantage (more chance for a crit) and ignores cover for 1d8 BASE + dex modifier.
Some people are thinking way too much in lines of character optimisation rather than role playing. The power curve has been flattened, you're not going to be able to stack stuff the way you used to be able to, and that's a good thing.
Some people are thinking way too much in lines of character optimisation rather than role playing.

Nobody ever broke an RPG by roleplaying extra hard.  However, CharOp breaks games all the damn time.

Some people are thinking way too much in lines of character optimisation rather than role playing.

Nobody ever broke an RPG by roleplaying extra hard.  However, CharOp breaks games all the damn time.



I've never had that problem in my games.  No matter how hard a player or group tries to break the game, there's always a stronger wall put before them.  If there's one thing a powergamer doesn't like, is when the DM powergames an encounter. That and spells that don't allow saves and ignore Spell Resistance. Oh, and the word "No."  I like using that last one
"How to Play" p. 4, para. 6; Dexterity: Attacks:

"You add your Dexterity modifier to your attack and damage rolls for finesse weapons and missile weapons." 

Emphasis mine. I can only assume the pregen is a typo. 



Ok my apologies. seems like I should have read the "How to play" document before looking at the pregens.
 


i feel like i'm talking to a wall by now when i say that rapid shot is very useful.

think of poisons, think of reliable damage, think of vulnerability to elements, all of these things rapid shot can use.

also, i hardly doubt your cleric can ignore cover with an advantage at level 3 on every single attack.



I accept the poison point.

The ability to make several weak attacks vs. weak opponents is better when you get your dexterity-modifier to damage. Assuming you do 1d8+4 damage, there is a 7 in 8 chance to one-shot a lvl1 kobold with 3 hit points. However, lvl2 kobolds already have 7 hit points and so you don't have a chance to one-shot them with a rapidshot attack. 
The ability to make several weak attacks only remains useful if there are also weak enemies at higher levels of play, that you can one-shot with it.
It is also unclear to me how it interacts with CombatSuperiority. Do the CS dice also get halved when you apply it to one rapidshot attack? 

Vulnerability doubles the damage of the incoming attacks, so you still do the same average damage. RapidShot can be useful in combination with vulnerability if and only if the total hitpoints of the enemy in question are low enough.

it's 4am

kindly excuse my diction.

also, 1d8 at a THIRD of the range that only moves 20 feet per round (yet still has to stay within 50 feet of you) does NOT make up for a ranged attack at 150 feet with automatic advantage (more chance for a crit) and ignores cover for 1d8 BASE + dex modifier.




The Sniper ability looks very useful for a rogue. However, for a fighter it is again only useful in niche cases.When your opponent did not notice you yet, so that you have time to spend the action for free. Or if the opponent has three-quarters cover.
Otherwise just using an action to make another attack will always be superior. 2 attacks without advantage and half-cover outclass 1 attack with advantage. At least for the fighter.
I mean, this is also what sniper is supposed to do I guess. Still you are making it better than it is.
Yeah, a Rogue (Thief) Archer is a pretty deadly combination. Depending on your race and weapon, that's 2d6+1d10 at first level, every 2 rounds.
Some people are thinking way too much in lines of character optimisation rather than role playing. The power curve has been flattened, you're not going to be able to stack stuff the way you used to be able to, and that's a good thing.

Says you. The OPers will always find a way to break the system. It's the "many eyeballs" effect in action. 

You also talk about CO like it's a slur. Some of us enjoy the game because we can tweak our characters for maximum performance.


I've never had that problem in my games.  No matter how hard a player or group tries to break the game, there's always a stronger wall put before them.  If there's one thing a powergamer doesn't like, is when the DM powergames an encounter. That and spells that don't allow saves and ignore Spell Resistance. Oh, and the word "No."  I like using that last one

Your players have my sympathy, then. 



Ok my apologies. seems like I should have read the "How to play" document before looking at the pregens.

I think your mistake was trusting that WotC's editors were awake when the packet was passed by them. That has not characteristically been true during this development cycle.
 

it's 4am

kindly excuse my diction.

Speaking as someone who's now been up for 37 hours straight, your diction is most emphatically excused.

also, 1d8 at a THIRD of the range that only moves 20 feet per round (yet still has to stay within 50 feet of you) does NOT make up for a ranged attack at 150 feet with automatic advantage (more chance for a crit) and ignores cover for 1d8 BASE + dex modifier.

Recall that spiritual hammer is also a non-action after the initial cast, so it's in addition to whatever the Cleric is putting out on his own. I've also neither seen nor run very many encounters that stretched out to anywhere near 150 feet. Most of them cap out at about 60.

Some people are thinking way too much in lines of character optimisation rather than role playing. The power curve has been flattened, you're not going to be able to stack stuff the way you used to be able to, and that's a good thing.

Says you. The OPers will always find a way to break the system. It's the "many eyeballs" effect in action.


Not if there's no way to stack bonuses.




You also talk about CO like it's a slur. Some of us enjoy the game because we can tweak our characters for maximum performance.




You just said that the OPers will find a way to break the system. That's EXACTLY why it is a slur.

Nobody ever broke an RPG by roleplaying extra hard.  However, CharOp breaks games all the damn time.


You never meet my group. Those ones opt to roleplay extra hard exactly in that moment when it will throw the campaign plans to the window. Like this

[<()>]Proud Brazilian. Typos are free bonuses. 

Don't plan it out in detail then.

The ability to make several weak attacks vs. weak opponents is better when you get your dexterity-modifier to damage. Assuming you do 1d8+4 damage, there is a 7 in 8 chance to one-shot a lvl1 kobold with 3 hit points. However, lvl2 kobolds already have 7 hit points and so you don't have a chance to one-shot them with a rapidshot attack. 
The ability to make several weak attacks only remains useful if there are also weak enemies at higher levels of play, that you can one-shot with it.


Given that one of the design goals is bounded accuracy, which makes orcs a threat even at high levels if you use enough of them, I'd say that there will ALWAYS be weak enemies that can potentially be one-shotted with Rapid Shot. 

Also keep in mind situations where your allies almost kill an enemy, but he only has a handful of HP left.  Rapid Shot the fool and apply some damage to another enemy as well, instead of wasting a full-damage attack on someone who is already almost dead. 

I think that D&DN has an interesting take on multi-attacking, and I for one would like to see it in play before I pass judgement.  It's not overpowered, monstrous damage like it has been in the past, but rather a useful trick for finishing off weak opponents.  It's tactically interesting because it's not going to be the obvious choice every round.  I'd MUCH rather have this than Twin Strike.
Agreed, multishot is useful as written, and thats without even taking into account attacking objects or for damage boosting enchantments.

If we get a Flaming enchant that does +1d6, then I see no reason why that should be halved as well, which would mean you would end up doing more overall damage multishotting.  Sure, it still wouldn't be enough to one shot most higher level creatures, but the overall damage output would be higher.

And then there's things like shooting drawbridge ropes, candles, etc.  I can think of a lot of things to do with being able to spray multiple arrows per attack.

Given that one of the design goals is bounded accuracy, which makes orcs a threat even at high levels if you use enough of them, I'd say that there will ALWAYS be weak enemies that can potentially be one-shotted with Rapid Shot. 

Also keep in mind situations where your allies almost kill an enemy, but he only has a handful of HP left.  Rapid Shot the fool and apply some damage to another enemy as well, instead of wasting a full-damage attack on someone who is already almost dead. 



I agree that when weak or nearly dead opponents frequently appear, Rapid Shot has its uses. However, does the archer actually know if it is possible to one-shot an enemy in advance? Can he see how many hit dice an opponent has? How can the archer tell if an enemy is almost dead?
The usefulness of a Rapid Shot in my opinion depends too much on a) frequency of weak opponents b) rough knowledge about the total HP of an enemy


I think that D&DN has an interesting take on multi-attacking, and I for one would like to see it in play before I pass judgement.  It's not overpowered, monstrous damage like it has been in the past, but rather a useful trick for finishing off weak opponents.  It's tactically interesting because it's not going to be the obvious choice every round.  I'd MUCH rather have this than Twin Strike.



I don't want to have Twin Strike back either. However, I would prefer it if the usefulness of multiattacking would not depend too much on the frequency of a certain type of monster (weaklings) or kind of metagaming knowledge about the current HP of a monster.

It's not metagaming knowledge to ask the DM whether the monster appears severely injured.

Worst case, you just attack the same thing twice, and you do the same average damage as you always would have.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
i feel like i'm talking to a wall by now when i say that rapid shot is very useful.

You know that old joke; where the kid says "Doctor, Doctor! It hurts when I do this!" and the Doc says "Then don't do that"? Same idea here. 

Rapid Shot is of debatable usefulness right now. That may change later as options are added that can bolster it. 

Fire beatles and kobolds have 3 hit points.  Rapid shot let's you kill 2 per turn instead of 1.

Now, how often that comes up is debateable, but it certainly has it's uses.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

also, non-damaging effects exist.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I agree that when weak or nearly dead opponents frequently appear, Rapid Shot has its uses. However, does the archer actually know if it is possible to one-shot an enemy in advance? Can he see how many hit dice an opponent has? How can the archer tell if an enemy is almost dead?
The usefulness of a Rapid Shot in my opinion depends too much on a) frequency of weak opponents b) rough knowledge about the total HP of an enemy

Nothing says the archer has to declare targets for both attacks simultaneously. Make the first attack, see if it drops the enemy, and assign your second attack accordingly.

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