Dual Weilding.

Scratching my head as to how the lvl 1 ability is in any way a bonus. Extra chance to miss for same damage as not dual weilding? Am I missing something?
Well, look at it from this perspective:

Rolling 1d20 once and missing vs. rolling 1d20 twice and missing once, hitting the other time.  You deal half damage.

Rolling 1d20 once and hitting for 1 + Str mod damage vs. Rolling 1d20 twice and hitting for 1 + Str modifier damage the first time, with a small chance of that happening again.

It's not perfect, no, but I think yeah, you missed a little bit of potential.  It's kind of a trap option, but it has its uses.
57920628 wrote:
Our group was also kinda curious whether dwarves can get drunk at all. After all - alcohol is a metabolic poison. And dwarves are immune to poison. My suggestion is that this explains why they are always so grumpy: They keep drinking and drinking, trying to get drunk. And no matter how much they drink, it never has any effect on them.
The most awesome post EVER. You may all stop playing the internet now, it's been won.
As it currently exists - it is not much of an advantage at first level.  

It has little direct effect on damage per round (at 1st level):  Against targets that you hit roughy 50% of the time,  1/4 of the time you do no damage, 2/4 (=1/2) of the time you do half damage, 1/4 of the time you do normal damage (compared to half of the time no damage, half of the time full damage).

But you also have to consider that there are many creatures who are easily killed by half damage.  

A  fighter with with a +3 from stat will do an average of 6.5 damage on a hit - without using any CS dice.  If he had dual wield and used the die for damage, his average at first level would be 10 points (ten for a non-dwarf)  Half of that is five - and five points of damage kills a dozen or so creatures in the Bestiary.   At higher level, of course, his CS die get bigger. 

Or - if as is more likely - the CS damage is applied after the hit - it means a dual wielder does 3 points of damage on a hit - but can apply the CS damage to one of those hit -which may well kill one and wound another rather than simply wasting that extra damage.

So it never really reduced output (although it is the opposite of focusing fire) - and situationally can be better.

 Sounds like it might be about right - I'll need testers to be sure.

And then at higher levels, it opens up further improvements.

I'm more interested in how it interacts with things like Sneak Attack.  Does the sneak attack get applied after the hit to one attack or is it all one attack and the Sneak damage is halved and split?  As written "after you hit" I would assume the former - but there are times when it would be more advantagous to do the former.


I also wonder if it is by design or by accident that there are no hammer or axe finesse weapons.

Carl
It isn't a trap option.  It just isn't designed to increase damage output.  Instead, it is designed to allow you to split your damage or to increase your chance to hit in situation where hitting is more important than damage (hypothetically, like if you have a poison on the tip of your weapons).

-SYB
We also don't yet know what options it opens up at higher levels.


Carl
Note I said "kind of" a trap option.  But yes, a better analysis than I made, thank you Carl.
57920628 wrote:
Our group was also kinda curious whether dwarves can get drunk at all. After all - alcohol is a metabolic poison. And dwarves are immune to poison. My suggestion is that this explains why they are always so grumpy: They keep drinking and drinking, trying to get drunk. And no matter how much they drink, it never has any effect on them.
The most awesome post EVER. You may all stop playing the internet now, it's been won.
I'm assuming that since it says "all damage" is halved, that that includes bonus damage such as sneak attack and expertise dice, much like those damage sources are maximized in the event of a crit (It's quite possible I'm interpreting that wrongly). I can already see a few options that are enhanced by the additional chance to land at least one hit: The Thug Rogue's Cheap Shot relies on you inflicting sneak attack damage, which dual-wielding/rapid shot makes more likely, and for the Thief, it makes your repositioning with Hit and Run more reliable. Likewise for the Protector Fighter's Push and Knock Down, dual-wielding increases the chance that a hit will be scored and these maneuvers can be activated. And, as CarlT notes, the kind of damage the Fighter can put out is often overkill against a lot of enemies, which makes the prospect of splitting that damage in half and applying it to two enemies promising. If you roll the attacks one at a time, you can see if the first attack kills your target and then apply the second attack accordingly, which potentially makes Cleave more reliable to activate as well.

It appears to me that if your objective is damage, you use a two-handed weapon, if you want personal protection you use a weapon and shield, and if you want reliability you use two weapons. This seems to be a reasonable design to me.
People traditionally played dual-wield characters specifically to increase damage. You also leave out the fourth fighting style: one-handed, no shield.

How I'd handle the four styles:
Weapon-and-Shield: +1 AC
Two-Hander: +1 or 2 damage on average
One-Hander: +1 on attack? advantage at high levels? (first is boring, second is too powerful with sneak attack)
Dual-Wield: two attacks, each has disadvantage (requires a feat)

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/7.jpg)

delroland:

lets try a departure from traditional though. there is a very big potential for dual wielding to increase damage output, also i don't like the idea of manditory feats or "feat taxes". a feat should be something that you pick to customize your character, not a requirement to make a style as big as duel wielding work.

i for one love this change, it repositions the DW fighter, instead of feat taxing him to hell and back for the sake of a power bonus.
some very good points; one that no one has mentioned is that more attacks means that many more chances for a Critical hit. One rule I would like to see stated in the final rules (or at least an option listing it) is that on a Critical Hit, a Dual-Wielding Fighter's attack deals maximum damage which is NOT halved.  Here's what the packet says:

Natural 20: If your d20 roll is a 20 before adding modifiers, your attack is a critical hit. A critical hit deals the maximum possible damage for the attack.

So, which is it?? Does a Dual Wielder half damage on a Crit (Lame) or do they get full damage???  I would say the latter, as the General Crit rule would IMHO supercede a specific (Dual Wielding) Rule.  I will house rule it this way regardless...
Isn't that what all feats are about, though: increasing the capability of your character? As written, TWF is not so much an increase as a lateral change.

Let's take a page out of MMO's: dual-wielding has no effect on the accuracy or damage of the main hand weapon; only the off-hand does penalized damage, and many classes have abilities which reduce or eliminate this penalty. In addition, these characters get access to advanced maneuvers which specifically revolve around using two weapons.

TWF right now is boring and uninspired, so unless the powers-that-be have something waiting in the wings to wow us with dual-wielding awesomeness, no one is going to take the feat.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/7.jpg)

delroland

i have to respectfully disagree, all though i understand your argument.

i see potential in twice as many  hit die rolls, people have pointed out more reliable damage, more crit chance, more chance to apply poisons or kill minions etc, say you have a weapon that deals fire based damage and you are attacking somethign vulnerable to fire, your weapons damage is halved, but the vulnerability isn't, so you are in fact dealing more damage.

but my point was more importantly this. there is a difference between a feat that you can take to advance your power, and a feat that you MUST take to make your class or speciality useful. the former is great, the latter is bad game design.

feats should be unrelated to class or speciality, they should be small bonuses that compliment your character, but you should have the tools to be successful built into your characters natural progression. in essence, it should be set up so that yes, feats help, but it doesn't matter WHICH feats you took, they should compliment playstyle, not be a pre-requisite to being useful, because if feats are a tax, then why bother having them in the first place? why not simply build it into the class and not give you a choice?
With the current iteration of the rules, the critical hit rules say max damage and TWF says half. There is no problem with applying both of these together. You deal half of your maximum damage. So I see no need for anything to be clarified.

 Yuwain - I'm pretty sure by hit die rolls you mean attack rolls. Your vulnerability example doesn't work though since vulnerability doubles damage, it doesn't add a fixed number like it did in 4th. I agree with your stance on feat taxes.

Another thing to take into consideration is the round down fractions rule. Half damage means that if your damage is an odd number, 1 point of it is wasted. This also applies to critical hits, meaning that if you are CharOping a TWF character, you would want to have your max damage be an even number, which seems like a very strange metagamey decision to make.

An alternative to the current TWF implementation that I have thought of would be to have it give you two attacks, but only when you have advantage (instead of the normal effects of advantage). So you are still rolling two dice, but both of them are separate attack rolls.

The most immediately apparent issue with this would be sneak attack, which I think deals f***ing insane damage right from level 1. The problem isn't that it could be applied to both attacks (because it can't, you can only use it once per round), but that it could be applied to either attack (meaning a much higher chance to use it). Perhaps explicitly stating that you have to declare sneak attack before making your attack roll or that it always activates on your first attack of the round and only on that attack, but that's getting a little off topic.
good point silentsin, it is late and i feel i'm slipping up, lol.
I'm a little miffed it's Finesse weapons only.

Isn't that what all feats are about, though: increasing the capability of your character? As written, TWF is not so much an increase as a lateral change.


Good, more lateral change, less power creep.

Progression:Power Creep::Tomato:Tomato

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/7.jpg)

Progression is not the same as power creep. 5e changes progression into character development. Power creep is Rifts without the flavour.
With the current iteration of the rules, the critical hit rules say max damage and TWF says half. There is no problem with applying both of these together. You deal half of your maximum damage. So I see no need for anything to be clarified.



I respectfully disagree with the above assessment; it's a CRITICAL my friends!  I totally understand the flatter progression of D&D Next & the reduction to many mechanics/aspects.  I get it,  I'm on-board, etc...  It's my belief that the designers meant for the half damage of a TWF to be applied to only Non-critical hits.  Otherwise, how is it even a critical when you are dealing exactly 1/2 of the weapon's maximum damage??  Makes little sense.  The critical rule as it stands now is underpowered and weak anyway.  I would also like to see the ability to use a larger weapon in the TWF Primary hand... nothing too big like a Bastard sword but Long Swords, Maces, etc.  There is so little of a benefit to the TWF rules below LV3 that unless you're facing a lot of Kobolds & the like, you'd be better off using just one weapon.  Another topic but a Great Sword should get some sort of a damage boost for the added Strength of using both hands (and arms)...

Isn't that what all feats are about, though: increasing the capability of your character? As written, TWF is not so much an increase as a lateral change.



Feats which make you more powerful cannot be balanced with feats that just make you more interesting.


For this reason, I suspect their intent is to have feats that do not make you significantly more powerful.  Rather than increasing the depth of the character - making them better at what they do - they are designed to give them breadth - the ability to do thing that they could not before.


So a two weapon feat that does not actually increase their damage output is precisely what the game probably needs.  Take it if you want the added flexibility and options - but not because you want to do more damage.

Carl      
Also, this gives a melee a 75% chance of hitting an equal AC'ed oppenent, as compared to one with a single weapon.  So that's a pretty good reason to take it.  But at the same time, the lowered damage means that taking a two handed weapon is still viable as you'll be hitting less but harder.

One Weapon and Shield you take for defensive purposes, not damage, so it does't bear on this conversation. 
There are things that attacks do that aren't damage, however.  If you're a control-ish fighter, and want to spend your CS dice shoving people around and knocking them down, then DW is a dramatic boost to your overall effectiveness.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
With the current iteration of the rules, the critical hit rules say max damage and TWF says half. There is no problem with applying both of these together. You deal half of your maximum damage. So I see no need for anything to be clarified.



I respectfully disagree with the above assessment; it's a CRITICAL my friends!  I totally understand the flatter progression of D&D Next & the reduction to many mechanics/aspects.  I get it,  I'm on-board, etc...  It's my belief that the designers meant for the half damage of a TWF to be applied to only Non-critical hits.  Otherwise, how is it even a critical when you are dealing exactly 1/2 of the weapon's maximum damage??  Makes little sense.  The critical rule as it stands now is underpowered and weak anyway.  I would also like to see the ability to use a larger weapon in the TWF Primary hand... nothing too big like a Bastard sword but Long Swords, Maces, etc.  There is so little of a benefit to the TWF rules below LV3 that unless you're facing a lot of Kobolds & the like, you'd be better off using just one weapon.  Another topic but a Great Sword should get some sort of a damage boost for the added Strength of using both hands (and arms)...




You can disagree if you want, but there is simply nothing in the rules to indicate that your interpretation / desire would be anything other than a houserule.

Point taken, though in truth, you are making a supposition that you apply both rules when it doesn't say to do so... it doesn't say either way.  I guess I'm going on what one of the developers said a while back (before the first packet, don't remember who).  They said a General (broad) rule such as the Critcal Hit (Combat) rule would supercede a more Specific rule such as your 'Specialty' character is wielding a short sword & dagger; how is it handled?

I think the current TWF rules, with respect, need to go back to the drawing board.  Balance need to be considered at all turns to make it right but the current rule as it stands is unnecessarily complex.  The rules thus far have done a TON of things to make things easier, smoother & less cumbersome... Streamlined!  Like the Adv/Disatv mechanic: most cal it simple yet elegant.  I want something similar to that in theTWF rules.  Here's my idea:

--Fix two weapon fighting: get rid of the 1/2 Dmg math; simplify: drop the damage 1 die type (Ex: d6 to d4 for a short sword; dagger d4 to a d3, etc. {use a d6 4,5,6 = 1,2,3}) for Off-hand which attacks with Disatantage.  Your primary attack won't suffer, your off-hand will hit less often and for less damage.  No extra math of calculating the damage, then halving it...  I know, it's easy to divde by two rounding up or down but this just makes mores sense to me.  Also, in the case of the Fighter class: don't limit their primary hand to Finesse only weapons.  AND, the primary hand weapon does NORMAL (Not 1/2) Damage.  I'll be house-ruling it to this effect anyway...

I could only be on-board with the current rule for the Specialty if and ONLY IF they allowed the TWF to ROUND UP on damage rolls.  a TWF is giving up a shield (for the record, a Med one should still be +2 to your AC).  Sacrificing AC in favor of an extra attack has to be worth doing; if the rule is too weak, who will use it??  Please look into this.
There are things that attacks do that aren't damage, however.  If you're a control-ish fighter, and want to spend your CS dice shoving people around and knocking them down, then DW is a dramatic boost to your overall effectiveness.



I wouldn't as a DM rule that you could use knockdown on a glancing blow.

--Fix two weapon fighting: get rid of the 1/2 Dmg math; simplify: drop the damage 1 die type (Ex: d6 to d4 for a short sword; dagger d4 to a d3, etc. {use a d6 4,5,6 = 1,2,3}) for Off-hand which attacks with Disatantage.  Your primary attack won't suffer, your off-hand will hit less often and for less damage. 

Why not step down both, and assume ambidexerity?
Or, even better, anyone can TWF with the current rules, and the TWF feat enables the stepdown and ambidex above (or move the ambi to GTWF, or later in the chain), then the rest of the feat-chain can bring it up to full damage.

for those who haven't read them yet, here are the rules for TWF:

Level 1: Two-Weapon Fighting
When wielding a pair of lightweight weapons, you can strike twice. Benefit: While you are wielding a finesse weapon in each hand and have proficiency with each weapon, you can make two attacks as an action, one with each weapon. All the damage of each of these attacks is halved.
Level 3: Two-Weapon Defense
You can use the weapon you wield in your off hand to defend yourself against incoming attacks. Benefit: While you are wielding a finesse weapon in each hand and have proficiency with each weapon, you gain a +1 bonus to AC.

My idea for using the rules as they stand, adding in further advancement...
Level 5: Florentine Expert
You have become more skilled at wielding 2 weapons at once.
Benefit: While you are wielding a finesse weapon in each hand and have proficiency with each weapon, you can make two attacks as an action, one with each weapon. Only the damage of the off-hand attacks is halved.
The root problem is, we're investing in a feat to suck.  I was really hoping junkfeats that do little but serve as prereqs to actually useful feats was something that had died with 3E.

  a TWF is giving up a shield (for the record, a Med one should still be +2 to your AC).  Sacrificing AC in favor of an extra attack has to be worth doing; if the rule is too weak, who will use it??  Please look into this.



Afraid not  only one shield in equipment and it blows your giving up +1 AC untill 3rd then your even I would be on board for TWF rounding up anyway though so theres at least a bit of Damage gain.

It's odd, and honestly kind of not what I would of expected from TWF, but I think it's more about consistent/reliable damage/hits and not high DPS at all. Trying to make it deal damage on par with two handed fighting will just make it so one or the other is the "better" option. I think they should focus on the control aspect of TWF more instead of trying to make the damage match up with THW.

Random idea, tell me how this sounds. First off, allow anyone to use TWF just cuz, like using dex with finesse weapons. Then, change the TWF feat to this: "When you make two attacks by dual wielding finesse weapons, you may declare the target of each attack before rolling any attack rolls. If you do this, roll all d20s at once and assign them to your attacks as you see fit."

Eh, I don't like the wording all that much but hopefully you get the idea. You want to attack a big guy and a minion. Instead of resolving each attack separately, you roll both d20s at once. One is a 13 and the other is a 20, you can decide that the crit goes to the big guy and the 13 goes to the minion. The one thing you can't do though is change your mind about targets. You decided to attack two minions and got a crit, you can't change your mind and say you want to attack the big guy with the crit.

The point of this feat is to get even more control over how your attacks are resolved, which is how I think you can have a TWF fighter stand next to a smashy fighter and neither one out shine the other.


Also, I still love the idea of crits ignoring the half damage part. If it would make the average DPS on par with smashy then I wouldn't want it, but I could see that adding a fun aspect to TWF. You're part consistent/controlled damage, part advantage hungry to get that 4d20 and hope for a crit.


It's odd, and honestly kind of not what I would of expected from TWF, but I think it's more about consistent/reliable damage/hits and not high DPS at all. Trying to make it deal damage on par with two handed fighting will just make it so one or the other is the "better" option. I think they should focus on the control aspect of TWF more instead of trying to make the damage match up with THW.

Random idea, tell me how this sounds. First off, allow anyone to use TWF just cuz, like using dex with finesse weapons. Then, change the TWF feat to this: "When you make two attacks by dual wielding finesse weapons, you may declare the target of each attack before rolling any attack rolls. If you do this, roll all d20s at once and assign them to your attacks as you see fit."

Eh, I don't like the wording all that much but hopefully you get the idea. You want to attack a big guy and a minion. Instead of resolving each attack separately, you roll both d20s at once. One is a 13 and the other is a 20, you can decide that the crit goes to the big guy and the 13 goes to the minion. The one thing you can't do though is change your mind about targets. You decided to attack two minions and got a crit, you can't change your mind and say you want to attack the big guy with the crit.

The point of this feat is to get even more control over how your attacks are resolved, which is how I think you can have a TWF fighter stand next to a smashy fighter and neither one out shine the other.


Also, I still love the idea of crits ignoring the half damage part. If it would make the average DPS on par with smashy then I wouldn't want it, but I could see that adding a fun aspect to TWF. You're part consistent/controlled damage, part advantage hungry to get that 4d20 and hope for a crit.




Honestly I think the best case would be to have anyone able to fight with 2 weapons as currently written (Seriously it's not a trained skill)  and give two wepon fighting the following you may use any one handed weapons while fighting with two weapons in addition you round up your damage while fighting with two weapons and ignore the half damage when you score a critical hit. I'm sure the wording could be better but I hope you get the Idea

You don't dual wield for damage.

You dual wield to stab 2 kobolds at once (1/2 damage is still a kill).
And you dual wield to use "knock down" or "push" more easily.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

You don't dual wield for damage.

You dual wield to stab 2 kobolds at once (1/2 damage is still a kill).
And you dual wield to use "knock down" or "push" more easily.



Really? So if I go up to a kobold and stab him with two knives I'm not doing twice the damage? I agree half damage is still probably a kill. But, the logic doesn't make sense. I can see taking disadvantage on your off-hand weapon because it's awkward. I can even see half damage from your off-hand weapon, because of awkwardness. But, half damage from both? I think that's a little severe.
There are things that attacks do that aren't damage, however.  If you're a control-ish fighter, and want to spend your CS dice shoving people around and knocking them down, then DW is a dramatic boost to your overall effectiveness.



I wouldn't as a DM rule that you could use knockdown on a glancing blow.




Neither would I, because glancing blow isn't a hit.  But that's a pretty narrow case, and pooh-poohing the general idea of using non-Deadly-Strike CS maneuvers with DW because of it is being pretty selective.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
You don't dual wield for damage.

You dual wield to stab 2 kobolds at once (1/2 damage is still a kill).
And you dual wield to use "knock down" or "push" more easily.



Really? So if I go up to a kobold and stab him with two knives I'm not doing twice the damage? I agree half damage is still probably a kill. But, the logic doesn't make sense. I can see taking disadvantage on your off-hand weapon because it's awkward. I can even see half damage from your off-hand weapon, because of awkwardness. But, half damage from both? I think that's a little severe.

It's not about awkwardness.  About 1/2 the power of a swing comes from your arm, the other 1/2 is from your body.



You can't swing nearly as hard holding a bat/weapon in each hand.  (feel free to try it yourself).

There's a reason dual wielding isn't often done by actual warriors.  And those that do use it for utility (i.e. block with one, strike with the other).

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

mello is about 120% right in this argument

the only actual Duel wielding example i can think of right now is dueling arts like fencing and some styles frm the east.

and even in fencing, the off hand was either a dager or a lanturn, it was more for utility.

-edt-


which is why i also think it's stupid that the finesse weapons are weapons that are so long, like rapiers and sort swords (arming swords), and yet there is no finessable axe, like a hatchet. in terms of ability, it is much easier to DW small weapons (there are knife styles that DW) because you don't have to worry about getting tangled up in your own weapons. axes and maces are better TWF weapons than swords, yet they aren't an option.
And those that do use it for utility (i.e. block with one, strike with the other).



"utility" is a bit of a misnomer, it's more "defense" - but something a little faster than a shield, yet still serviceable in deflecting attacks and more pointy in case you get lucky.


Honest question here, though I know it'll sound snarky:

What's the reason for wanting more damage other than just "I want to have more damage for dual wielding because that makes me better!" ?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
i think it's because other editions offered TWF as a power gain, and power gamers are used to it.


TWF should be for flavor, and offer lateral benefits like more options during combat, and, lo and behold, thats exactly what it does.
i think it's because other editions offered TWF as a power gain, and power gamers are used to it.

That, and Spartacus.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
And those that do use it for utility (i.e. block with one, strike with the other).



"utility" is a bit of a misnomer, it's more "defense" - but something a little faster than a shield, yet still serviceable in deflecting attacks and more pointy in case you get lucky.


Honest question here, though I know it'll sound snarky:

What's the reason for wanting more damage other than just "I want to have more damage for dual wielding because that makes me better!" ?

Tradition i guess.  In 3.5 (and many other games), dual wielding was one of the best ways to boost damage.  But that's not true in real life.

Sword and board or reach (2-handed swords being able to out reach 1-handers) are the 2 main ways people did it.

Off hand weapons are nearly always defensive (often with large guards, to catch other blades), or perhaps throwable.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

You don't dual wield for damage.

You dual wield to stab 2 kobolds at once (1/2 damage is still a kill).
And you dual wield to use "knock down" or "push" more easily.



Really? So if I go up to a kobold and stab him with two knives I'm not doing twice the damage? I agree half damage is still probably a kill. But, the logic doesn't make sense. I can see taking disadvantage on your off-hand weapon because it's awkward. I can even see half damage from your off-hand weapon, because of awkwardness. But, half damage from both? I think that's a little severe.

It's not about awkwardness.  About 1/2 the power of a swing comes from your arm, the other 1/2 is from your body.



You can't swing nearly as hard holding a bat/weapon in each hand.  (feel free to try it yourself).

There's a reason dual wielding isn't often done by actual warriors.  And those that do use it for utility (i.e. block with one, strike with the other).



I don't even know where to start.

1) bat analogy really, really? Swing a sword like a bat watch your opponent step back step in and stabity stab stab you to death. No one fights with full on body swings. 
 

2) The reason why most warriors don't dual wield is because a shield is stupid effective. there is verry little diference in the way you swing a one handed weapon regardless of what you have in your off hand