Legends & Lore - Playtest Packet 2

Legends & Lore
Playtest Packet 2

   
by Mike Mearls

It’s been a few months since we released the first playtest packet and in that time we’ve gotten great feedback from our playtesters. I’m happy to say the second playtest packet is now available for download. If you’re reading this and you haven't downloaded your packet yet, the rest of the article might not make much sense to you, so you might want to hold off on reading this until you have the packet in hand.

Talk about this article here.

What, no candy?
Or rainbows?

Danny

Like the cake, the candy and rainbows was a lie. I'm cruel, I know.

Trevor Kidd Community Manager

Rainbows were localized to me as I was doing this 

over the improvements. 
I want to thanks WoTC for their work with the new Download system. It went smoother and faster.  
I'm naming my next character Candy Rainbows. Because I'm getting my candy and rainbows and nobody is gonna stop me. NOBODY!..\

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Does the Character Creation pdf stop in the middle of the Advancement table for anyone else?
I want to thanks WoTC for their work with the new Download system. It went smoother and faster.  

+1
/\ Art
Rogue Schemes are nice !  Combat Superiority really gives the Fighter a unique effective ability. I like the Channel Divinity rework to give a Heal and Turn Undead relegated to a Spell that the Cleric always has prepared. Sneak Attack was beefed up too!

Opportunity Attack and Disengage rule works really well. Lower hit points makes the system more gritty and Healing more effective.

I like the Variant Rules for Long Rest!    

Racial have cool write-ups but i still dislike that Dwarven Resilience still makes Dwarf immune to Poison, rather than Resistant. 

I welcome the return of The Nine and the inclusion of Unaligned as an Alignment that is associated to creatures mostly driven by instint, or automate like Golem, Undead etc...    

Weapons and Armors was reworked for the better !

Nice filleable PDF Sheet !     

I like that the DM Guidelines has more guidelines for how to handle Ability Score checks !   I like the Encounter Building XP and budget and how they made it for the adventuring day. 

A good update ! 
The wizard is "mostly hitting the mark"?  Really?  REALLY?  That's not the impression I'm getting here and elsewhere from the contentious nature of Wotc's Dev team insistant of cramming Vancian Wizards down our throat...and yes, that's exactly how I see it.

-Polaris
I'm naming my next character Candy Rainbows. Because I'm getting my candy and rainbows and nobody is gonna stop me. NOBODY!..\



+1  Hope he wears bright colors Tongue Out 

There have been some good steps in the right direction...followed by more in the wrong direction.

Edited by Trevor: Stating your opinion is fine and definitely something I want. Implying that the opinions of others are somehow coerced when they don't match with your own is not okay however. Lets refrain from commenting on other people's thought processes or opinions in that way.
I am not paid by WoTC but i can say when i see good deeds. 

Stop and listen...
   
If you dont hear hundreads of people complaining they can't download the Packet is because it was handled with great success.

I hear silence.   HUZZA!
1,404 posts before the ORC locked it, versus one guy who may have a wonky issue with extracting zip files.

Massive improvement, Wiz.  Massive.  Props.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I don't like the 'reusable spell' insinuation, but what the heck...I can say 'nope' to it.  That's what I tell other people to do, and what's good for the goose... *shrug*

I'm pleased.  And yes, great job on the distribution Wizards!

"Lightning...it flashes bright, then fades away.  It can't protect, it can only destroy."

I have two quick questions.

Rapid Shot and Two Weapon Fighting - Would I be right in saying that even if you hit both these attacks you still only do the maximum damage that you could do in a turn?

So really, the bonus from these Feats is that you have two chances of hitting the enemy each turn (am I right?)

Character Advancement Table - It says Skill Training at 2nd and 4th level. I'd like to see that somehow able to be used to train in new skills. But then again, I guess that's what Jack of all Trades is for..

Also, I'm rather sad that we only get feats every third level. Would have much rathered 1 3 5 7 9 11 etc... 
I don't like the 'reusable spell' insinuation, but what the heck...I can say 'nope' to it.  That's what I tell other people to do, and what's good for the goose... *shrug*

I'm pleased.  And yes, great job on the distribution Wizards!

Spells that you cast once and then could use multiple times have existed at least since the 3.5 PHB. It's just an expansion on things like that.

Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
I want to thanks WoTC for their work with the new Download system. It went smoother and faster.  


Yeah, it was surprisingly painless. I'm glad they got that fixed.
Haven'r read through all of it... First impressions... 

Love that they have added slow healing...

Hate the spells more and more, seeing a futile attempt to reuse old names for spells that now has been reduced to static damage with and without disguise.

Edit: Nevermind... while some spells are wrong, others have been fixed I notice... nice update so far....


The Character Initiative


Every time you abuse the system you enforce limitations.
Every time the system is limited we lose options.
Breaking an RPG is like cheating in a computer game.
As a DM you are the punkbuster of your table.
Dare to say no to abusers.
Make players build characters, not characters out of builds.




I have two quick questions.

Rapid Shot and Two Weapon Fighting - Would I be right in saying that even if you hit both these attacks you still only do the maximum damage that you could do in a turn?

So really, the bonus from these Feats is that you have two chances of hitting the enemy each turn (am I right?)



Yup, it's not a net DPR increase.  What it allows you to do is be a little more flexible and avoid overkill.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I don't like the 'reusable spell' insinuation, but what the heck...I can say 'nope' to it.  That's what I tell other people to do, and what's good for the goose... *shrug*

I'm pleased.  And yes, great job on the distribution Wizards!

Spells that you cast once and then could use multiple times have existed at least since the 3.5 PHB. It's just an expansion on things like that.



Yah, I know.  I really didn't like it then either.  But like I said...I can deal with it.  That kinna response always makes it easy, methinks.

"Lightning...it flashes bright, then fades away.  It can't protect, it can only destroy."

I have two quick questions.

Rapid Shot and Two Weapon Fighting - Would I be right in saying that even if you hit both these attacks you still only do the maximum damage that you could do in a turn?

So really, the bonus from these Feats is that you have two chances of hitting the enemy each turn (am I right?)


That seems to be the case. Which is kinda disappointing.

Character Advancement Table - It says Skill Training at 2nd and 4th level. I'd like to see that somehow able to be used to train in new skills.


Agreed.

Also, I'm rather sad that we only get feats every third level. Would have much rathered 1 3 5 7 9 11 etc... 


I'm not fussed either way.
Spells that you cast once and then could use multiple times have existed at least since the 3.5 PHB. It's just an expansion on things like that.




There were at least a few in the 2E Wizard's Spell Compendium.  Mostly in the vein of touch spells where you got 1 successful touch per N levels, or spells like Melf's Minute Meteors where you had N meteors to hurl.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
Spells that you cast once and then could use multiple times have existed at least since the 3.5 PHB. It's just an expansion on things like that.




There were at least a few in the 2E Wizard's Spell Compendium.  Mostly in the vein of touch spells where you got 1 successful touch per N levels, or spells like Melf's Minute Meteors where you had N meteors to hurl.


Yah, but that's not reusing them every 5 minutes.  That's 'once its gone, its gone'.

"Lightning...it flashes bright, then fades away.  It can't protect, it can only destroy."

I want to thanks WoTC for their work with the new Download system. It went smoother and faster.  



Calling this an understatement is an understatement. 
Anyone else excited about starting a new D&D Next game and going up to 5th level?!Laughing

Yah, but that's not reusing them every 5 minutes.  That's 'once its gone, its gone'.




True.  I think there were one or two that lasted all day and basically gave you a new at-will power while they were active, but I don't remember them offhand.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
Anyone else excited about starting a new D&D Next game and going up to 5th level?!Laughing


Oh~ yeah~! *smashes through wall tossing out character sheets and dice*

There's a campaign idea I had that I was thinking of using 3.5 or Pathfinder for, but I'm now really thinking of using this new playtest packet for instead. I know some things will be a bit more limited, but with the adventure ideas I have plotted out I wouldn't have to mess with much to get it all to work. Main things I'd want to throw in are some magic items, alchemy skill and items, and Gnomes (perhaps different types of Gnomes, too).
I have two quick questions.

Rapid Shot and Two Weapon Fighting - Would I be right in saying that even if you hit both these attacks you still only do the maximum damage that you could do in a turn?

So really, the bonus from these Feats is that you have two chances of hitting the enemy each turn (am I right?)


That seems to be the case. Which is kinda disappointing.



I'm a little miffed it's only for Light/Finess class weaponry, what Long Sword and Short Sword combos are too powerful?

I'm a little miffed it's only for Light/Finess class weaponry, what Long Sword and Short Sword combos are too powerful?

Meanwhile, a katana and another katana apparently is not.

I'm a little miffed it's only for Light/Finess class weaponry, what Long Sword and Short Sword combos are too powerful?

Meanwhile, a katana and another katana apparently is not.




That's because Katana's are kewl.  (sarcasm fully intended)

-Polaris
Actually, Katanas are listed as a two-handed weapon so no dual wielding 2 of them (but holding one in both hands meets the requirements for the dual wielding specialty LOL).
Has anyone made any sense out of the experience table yet?
I can't work out the math, and plotting the five data points in excel creates what looks like an inverse hyperbolic function.
Yay, I might actually be able to create an AEDU caster. That's my one deal breaker, now that they are trying to address it I might come back to D&D...

I'll have to wait and see though...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I appreciate MM's comment (emphasis mine): "First of all, we’re committed to taking the time needed to get this right. As I write this, Gen Con is just a few days away. Usually we use the convention as a place to show off new products. We won’t be showing off any products for D&D Next but we do have plenty of exciting updates to share."

@Polaris: Despite your insistance that this won't happen, I'd rather stay hopeful that they are immitating Blizzard's stance of "as long as it takes". How about we just keep to the present and suggest improvements to what was presented? If they change their tune, I won't say a word as you scream "NAILED IT!".

Initial feedback:

Races: Erg. More variety, and I appreciate trying to keep additional racial features simple, but immunities need to GO. A simple "dwarves gain resistance to poison and advantage on poison saves" would be perfect IMO for core. Elves should get advantage on saves vs enchantments and sleep. Racial weapon bonuses should be kept as pure fluff at this juncture. No need to provide a mechanical reason why a race prefers specific weapons. Humans need SOME kind of racial feature, and a simple "+1 to any one ability" as the only ability bonus. I liked the "heroic effort" power added later in 4e for humans, and wouldn't mind seeing a form of it return. Probably give humans a bonus skill training, although that won't help if backgrounds aren't used.

Weapons: Better, but, katanas? I do like the idea of two handed finesse weapons though. Hand axe should be finessable.

Armor: Better, but I would like to see heavy armor get Dex/2 added (if a fighter has an 18+ dex and wears plate, they should be nigh unhittable). Special materials should not be baked in.

Classes: Better. I need a more time to digest the changes before I can give real feedback. Still need to look over the spells.

Specialties: Kinda REALLY missed the mark on these. I appreciate the effort, but I think these need to be mostly thrown out and/or reworked.

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Jonathan,

I was about to point out the Two Handed property.

I think that is an odd bending of the rules to say that the katana would qualify.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

Wait, what?  Katana are finessable but Bastard Swords cannot???  THEY'RE THE SAME TYPE OF WEAPON!

*Head asplodes all over the thread* 
I think the developers like to tease us with what I'd call an Easter Egg Grenade.  In the first packet, it was the intoxication condition, leading to drunken magic missile wizards.  In this packet, it's the super-katana.
I'm naming my next character Candy Rainbows. Because I'm getting my candy and rainbows and nobody is gonna stop me. NOBODY!..\



My son wanted to name his fighter Bob (and his innevitable duplicate replacement Bob2) and his wizard PunPun...I said no.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I think the developers like to tease us with what I'd call an Easter Egg Grenade.  In the first packet, it was the intoxication condition, leading to drunken magic missile wizards.  In this packet, it's the super-katana.



Teach those that think this is an end product.. heheheeheheeh.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

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