Looking for battlemind advice

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So, periodically I get the kick to build and play a battlemind, but I usually hit a wall when I try getting it to that real "kickass" feel - when a build comes together and you know it's doing well.  My builds for battleminds have always felt a little haphazard, of just picking decent-ish powers and hoping they work out, but always having weaknesses (crappy MBA, or paying my taxes, to use an example).  When going through the handbooks the builds there always seem to come together at much higher levels, whereas I'm looking for things more in the heroic range, preferably starting at 1.

I'm open to hybrids of various sort, but the goal is a defender.  Most recently I've started looking at hybrid swordmage and hybrid paladin, and I find those somewhat intriguing though there's some feat tax issues with the swordmage especially.  One thing I was wondering was whether Harrying Step is even possible to get on a hybrid battlemind - it appears no?  Also, if I do hybrid with another defender, is it still worth picking blurred step as opposed to mind spike?  Mind spike is generally considered junk, but is there any point to taking it at all?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Is there a way to ignore secondaries and favour str effectivly? Or take BCL feat (if your dm allows it).
Or hybrid warlock and get infernal goodies.
Or hybrid warlock and get infernal goodies.
Is there a way to ignore secondaries and favour str effectivly? Or take BCL feat (if your dm allows it).



Double stat dependency on a Defender is a terrible idea.
Battleminds are terrible until level 7, thats the reality of them. 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Battleminds are terrible until level 7, thats the reality of them. 


I didn't expect my concerns to be summarized quite so succinctly, but yeah that's sorta what I'm feeling like I'm running into.

Anyone manage to make them not awful up through 6?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Well, I've been lurking/posting for 2 years+ now and I've never seen it done.  To be fair though, most defenders are pretty generic in heroic.
Battleminds are BEYOND generic, they're borderline useless before then. Their mark punishment sucks, their powers aren't anything stellar, and so they're left feeling sad for most of heroic.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
And the fact that they have no MBA without taking melee training or racial feats is absolutely asinine.  Im not sure what they were thinking when they wrote it.
And the fact that they have no MBA without taking melee training or racial feats is absolutely asinine.  Im not sure what they were thinking when they wrote it.



Obviously you're supposed to take the dailies to give you OAs...

Oh wait they suck and you only get one or two before level 9? So what! 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Why would you need more than 1 or 2 in a workday is beyond me...  Obviously you aren't playing right.
Ah yes, I'm a terrible 4e player, thats why...
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Maybe this is more your speed Z?  Im sure there is plenty of OP to be done there.
Maybe this is more your speed Z?  Im sure there is plenty of OP to be done there.



Yes, I shall retreat to a game thats more at my level...
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
You can powerlevel with Baja!
Thicket of Blades FTW!
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
I'm playing a modified version of MwaO's Ioun Grey Stone Marker.  It's a Tiefling Battlemind|Fighter/Paladin grabbing WotCL to have an MBA and you're basically a fighter with really annoying mark punishment in Heroic.
Generic Battleminds are indeed teh sux before 7.

What you want is hybrid Fighter. Take Blurred Step, and Hybrid Talent for Combat Superiority to leave enemies with no good choice. Move? You stop them with CS. Shift? You smack them with Combat Challenge, and then shift after them with BS so they can't escape by moving/charging. 

Your Ref and Will suffer, but this is the best defender Battlemind I've seen yet pre-7. It's even stickier than a regular Fighter.

EDIT: ninja'd a bit by Teracide. 
Hybrid Paladin | Battlemind works, pick Blurred Step and you have an at-will basic attack and area sanctions. If you are tiefling pick WotCL and enfeebling strike. You have your hybrid talent free to pick Speed of Thought or Wild Focus.

I think Hybrid Druid | Battlemind works too, (I am working in a build) because you pick Mind Spike and you an at-will immobilization basic attack. MC fighter and hybrid talent druids guardian CON to AC. You need werethemes to be full functional after level 10. But basically you are a druid with mind spike and Battlemind's Demand. Little boring.
Sapphire - Swormage Dragon Guardian - Dont touch my allies build. Swordmage / Sigil Carver / Draconic incarnation The Holy Slayer - A Striker - Defender Fighter | Cleric / Barbarian - Paragon of Victory WEREBEAR BATTLEMIND: You wont go where you want. - A Battlemind (Druid) / Unbound Nomad / Topaz Crusader
Multiple battlemind|fighter hybrids defending each other could be a Thicket of Battleminds...

Bargle wrote:
This is CharOp. We not only assume block-of-tofu monsters, but also block-of-tofu DMs.
 

Zelink wrote:
You're already refluffing, why not refluff to something that doesn't suck?
You need werethemes to be full functional after level 10.


Fully functional after level 10 is basically all battleminds, though.  Doesn't help with the current problem 
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
My battlemind felt perfectly functional at level 6, with strong defensive stats, good stickiness, and with high damage to boot.  Battleminds have attracted a lot of attention on the CO forum; I recommend you puruse the many handbooks and builds that are out there, assuming you haven't already, and I highly recommend the Achilles build as a good place to start.  The Harrying Step feat can give you some stickiness out of the gate and the Conducive Defense at-will + support can do very respectable dpr.  I also dig the fey beast tamer theme for auto-ca, the superior will feat for added mobility, and you can even go revenant + death's brink armor + disciple of death and be well on the way to immortality.
Battlemind|Paladin all the way. No taxes (beyond the universal two: defenses and expertise). Use challenge/sanction until level 7, then Lightning Rush becomes your buddy. Conductive Defense is your go-to at-will (with Virtuous Strike for MBAs) until then.

Dragonborn or Tiefling both have fantastic support for this. I prefer Dragonborn because Mithral Arm is an amazing PP (any PPs that give a class power in place of the e11 are amazing for psionic hybrids, because it allows you to get 3 at-wills from the psionic class = tons of versatility and power points).

Here's a build I made along these lines...but I only did the L30 version, I never got around to a detailed lower level breakdown (also, I was aiming for defender/striker). Still, it might be helpful to see a potential avenue of development.
Is there a way to ignore secondaries and favour str effectivly? Or take BCL feat (if your dm allows it).



Double stat dependency on a Defender is a terrible idea.
Battleminds are terrible until level 7, thats the reality of them. 



Uhh, why 7 exactly? *curious*
Is there a way to ignore secondaries and favour str effectivly? Or take BCL feat (if your dm allows it).



Double stat dependency on a Defender is a terrible idea.
Battleminds are terrible until level 7, thats the reality of them. 



Uhh, why 7 exactly? *curious*



Lightning Rush and Forceful Reversal are both fantastically annoying powers from a DM perspective. Either makes certain DMs have a really hard day. But I agree with up above - they make great hybrids provided you can include some kind of punishment from the other side, gain an MBA and utilize blurred speed to cause problems right from level 1.


Uhh, why 7 exactly? *curious*



It's when you get your next set of at-will powers, specifically Lightning Rush, which transforms the way the class plays.
One way to make a Battlemind more effective at low levels is with Mark of Storm.  With Flail Expertise and Conductive Defense, you can prone at-will, starting at 1st level if play a human.

At 3rd level, you can select the vastly underated power, Lodestone Lure.  Sure, it doesn't do much damage, but it is a Melee 2 vs. Will (Melee 5 with 1 PP) that severely limits a target's options.  Even if they fly, teleport or move 12 squares per turn, they are pulled adjacent and are forced to finish their movement in a square next to you.  You can really ruin a skirmisher's day with this power.

By 4th level, you can get a Lightning Weapon which makes Lodestone Lure prone as well.  One trick I like to do is to use Lodestone Lure on a target up to 5 squares away.  First, I prone it with the Lightning Weapon/Flail Expertise/Mark of Storm combo and pull it adjacent.  Then I shift one square away.  Since I am only one square away, the target cannot stand and charge.  So, it either has to stand and do nothing or maybe crawl adjacent and then attack at -2.  Either way, you are doing your job as a defender.

By 7th level, of course you get Forceful Reversal which makes the crawl and attack even less appealing.

By 11th level, you can select whichever paragon path you wish, Lyrandar Windrider being an obvious choice.

I would also recommend multiclassing fighter for Dragging Flail and Hindering Shield.  With Dragging Flail, you get your Slide back after Proning from Flail Expertise.  With Hindering Shield, all of your Slides now Slow.

If you don't like the idea of having to use a Lightning Weapon, you can choose the Wild Focus class option and take Thundering Force and use a Force Weapon isntead.  All of your PSIONIC attacks will now do Thunder and Force damage, which will not likely be resisted.  If you do this though, make sure you also pick up Lashing Flail which will allow your MBA to Prone, Slide and Slow.

I have currently played a Human Wild Focus Battlemind to Level 14 using this build.  Adding in Resounding Thunder, all of my burst/blast powers are now one size larger.  It is extremely versatile.  Every round, I can choose pure lock-down on a single target with Lodestone Lure, I can multi-target attack with Vicious Cobra Strike (party friendly Burst 2, Slide and Slow) or go pure damage on a single target with Brutal Barrage (which still Prones, Slides and Slows).  And, of course, Forceful Reversal is ever present.
Found something a littler humorous!  I happened to be going through themes for my battlemind, and noticed Fey Beast Tamer.  I've used it quite a few times in different builds for the aura, but never noticed it had a MBA.  Just thought it would be funny to have an owlbear punishing foes for ignoring you.
Sadly you can't command it to do that unless it's just a wimpy OA that the thing provokes (and their basic attacks suck, by the way - they're about as bad as yours).
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
That's what I meant.  It's not really a "find" lol...just something that kinda works if you don't mind sharing the spotlight with your animal.  It's a dim spotlight.  Weak OA's on one side of your body, if your pet is adjacent to you.
Warlock|Battlemind/Fighter/Avernian Knight?

Solves the MBA issue, but defending is still pretty weak at low heroic. 
Lots of ways to solve the MBA issue in paragon.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
One way to make a Battlemind more effective at low levels is with Mark of Storm.  With Flail Expertise and Conductive Defense, you can prone at-will, starting at 1st level if play a human.



I tried this, but my DM said it doesn't work that way, since the feat does the move, not the attack. It's only a problem he says, because the feat specifically says: "When you hit with a melee weapon attack... and the attack lets you slide the target." I argue the slide is part of the attack, but meh, I was overruled at the table.
Your DM is wrong.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Did you settle on anything yet? I still say hybrid Paladin is what you're looking for...at level 1, you have strong marking, a real MBA, and still perfect defenses (all without using up any other resources). Plus the stat is a Battlemind secondary. I would argue that there is no better |Battlemind build at level 1, and it is quite effective later on too.
Sorta.  Hybrid paladin is what I was leaning to after poking in the builder in the first place, and it's only become more compelling after the thread.  That said, I'm looking for a new fun LFR character, ideally, and battlemind is one of those long-standing gaps in things I've played.  I'm still a little hesitant on the whole half-pal thing, just because it may feel too paladinny.

Mostly I'm just frustrated that pure BM is in such rough shape 1-6 
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Half elf battlemind that poaches eldritch strike and takes defending dabbler, though it does not come completely on until paragon.

Or be a battlemind warlock hybrid and do con/cha.  The stats line up.
Half elf battlemind that poaches eldritch strike and takes defending dabbler, though it does not come completely on until paragon.

Or be a battlemind warlock hybrid and do con/cha.  The stats line up.

Half-Elf, like you said, doesn't turn on till paragon.

Warlock means you have to use HT on defenses right away, and the actual mark punishment stuff doesn't really work out.

@Mand: yeah, it's very paladin-y until level 7. But...you get the extra stickiness of the battlemind (Blurred Step), and the nice at-will (Conductive Defense). Which is kind of as battlemind-y as it gets at level 1, the class doesn't have any other big defining features until you get to later powers.
Your DM is wrong.



Are there any specific rules that prove him wrong/right, or is this an interpretation thing?

Mark of Storms lets you slide the target 1 square on lightning powers. Flail Expertise lets you prone on attacks that slide. His argument is that the slide comes from Mark of Storms which is a feat, and not part of the power. So I guess his thinking is you attack, the feat checks for the condition and makes the move.

Wizards defined attack as : "An attack roll and its effects, including any damage rolls. The word “attack” is sometimes used as shorthand for “attack power.” Some attack powers include multiple attacks, and some powers, such as magic missile, are designated as attacks yet lack attack rolls (using such a power counts as making an attack if the power has a target)."

So the slide is neither part of the power, nor an effect listed on the card. This seems to indicate my DM is right.
Half elf battlemind that poaches eldritch strike and takes defending dabbler, though it does not come completely on until paragon.

Or be a battlemind warlock hybrid and do con/cha.  The stats line up.

Half-Elf, like you said, doesn't turn on till paragon.

Warlock means you have to use HT on defenses right away, and the actual mark punishment stuff doesn't really work out.

@Mand: yeah, it's very paladin-y until level 7. But...you get the extra stickiness of the battlemind (Blurred Step), and the nice at-will (Conductive Defense). Which is kind of as battlemind-y as it gets at level 1, the class doesn't have any other big defining features until you get to later powers.


Meh, it could work.  Realistically, how often do you get provoked off each encounter, particularly once the first once's invalidated an attack?
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Your DM is wrong.



Are there any specific rules that prove him wrong/right, or is this an interpretation thing?

Mark of Storms lets you slide the target 1 square on lightning powers. Flail Expertise lets you prone on attacks that slide. His argument is that the slide comes from Mark of Storms which is a feat, and not part of the power. So I guess his thinking is you attack, the feat checks for the condition and makes the move.

Wizards defined attack as : "An attack roll and its effects, including any damage rolls. The word “attack” is sometimes used as shorthand for “attack power.” Some attack powers include multiple attacks, and some powers, such as magic missile, are designated as attacks yet lack attack rolls (using such a power counts as making an attack if the power has a target)."

So the slide is neither part of the power, nor an effect listed on the card. This seems to indicate my DM is right.



It's a modification to the attack, just like all of the other feats and other elements that modify attacks.  When Warlock's Curse lets you do an extra 1d6 damage on a hit, that's part of the attack.  The same with Mark of Storm.  It could be a feat, it could be a class feature, it could be a paragon path feature, whatever.  The way the Mark of Storm feat is written makes it part of the attack.  It's essentially an addition to the Hit: line of a power.

D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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