Halfling Trickster and Bamboozle

10 posts / 0 new
Last post
Tell me if I am interpreting and ruling this trait correctly? (that is, insofar as the RAW):
Bamboozle
When the halfling ends a turn in which it did not attack and it has cover or concealment from a
creature, it is hidden from that creature until the end of its next turn.

#1 Can the creature that the halfling is hidden from make a Perception check to notice the halfling?
My thinking: No it cannot. Firstly, there is no Stealth check to roll against, thus, you can't make a Perception check against a roll or a DC that doesn't exist, nor does the halfling's trait call for a Stealth check (moreover, the Halfling Trickster is not even trained in Stealth).

#2 Would the Halfling Trickster lose hidden from the creature if it attacked before the end of its next turn?
1. Technically a minor action perception check can be used to detect a hidden creature. The DM would have to rule if a creature would be smart enough to attempt this. It would be opposed by a stealth roll from the player. When a player is making a stealth roll to hide, it is opposed by passive perceptions of other creatures. When a creature makes an active perception to detect hidden, it doesn't look like there is a specific ruling so you could either take the existing stealth check (if there is one) or make the player do another stealth check to oppose.

2. It would lose hidden in any of the standard ways hidden can be lost (Coming into line of sight, attacking, making noise etc). So yes, if it attacked, it would lose hidden, however it would have Combat Advantage for the attack.
But it doesn't say to make a Stealth check. Moreover, it is not even trained in Stealth, thus, if it was supposed to make a Stealth check, doesn't it seems obvious that they would have given it Stealth?
In all, I understand the Stealth rules, thus, I'm just inquiring about whether or not this specific instance of hidden overrides the general rules for hidden, as many powers do if they are so stated.
This power is poorly written, basically.

You'd have to call it as you see it.  I'd call it that it makes a Stealth check to hide.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Don't you think that would totally nerf it and its lurker mechanic, given that it's not trained in Stealth? In your opinion, why don't you think they gave it the Stealth skill if that's the way you think the trait works?
Correct, it doesn't have to make a stealth check to hide from the power. You use the power and you're hidden. IF a monster chooses to make an ACTIVE perception check as a minor action to detect hidden creatures, then the hidden creature must oppose that with an active stealth check.

As a DM, you have to rule whether you monsters are smart enough or have enough time to look for the hidden enemy.

If the character has not trained in Stealth, they hey have gimped themselves. Becomming hidden is one thing, staying hidden is another. If your character isn't stealthy, staying hidden will be hard. That is the fault of the character :-)
I would use Passive Stealth (Stealth score + 10) as the DC to spot it since the Halfling never actively used Stealth and made a roll but instead went Hiding automatically.
The rules for perception say


FIND A HIDDEN CREATURE


Make a Perception check to try to find a hidden creature (see “Stealth”). If a creature finds a hidden creature, it might point the hidden creature out to others, resulting in them knowing its location.


        Action: Minor action.
        Opposed Check: Against a target creature’s Stealth check. The DM might apply relevant modifiers from the Listen and Spot tables, depending on how the creature is trying to find a hidden target.
        Success: The target is no longer hidden from the creature. If the creature performing the check cannot see the target for some other reason, such as magical invisibility, it still knows where the target is located.



So if they haven't rolled a stealth check, to me it reads that they need to roll one to oppose the perception.

If they havn't rolled a stealth check, it doesn't mean the DC's 0.  It simply doesn't exsist.
It's like checking if 15 is more then a banna.

If you want to let people roll, a DC 5 (dex+lvl) + 5 (training it should have) + 5 (power bonus from the trait) = 15 + roll.  Or take 20 + dex = 25.  (about the same).

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

The rules for perception say

So if they haven't rolled a stealth check, to me it reads that they need to roll one to oppose the perception.


Thanks, but I don't like to add rules to monsters which are not stated in the monster block., i.e., "make a Stealth check", especially, calling for a skill check that the monster is not even trained in (the trickster is not trained in Stealth), thus, resulting in a high probability of negating a mechanic which its entire design is based upon- as it is with the halfling trickster, namely, its lurker mechanic, Bamboozle. Other similar powers call for a Stealth check, but this one does not, and I think this was purposeful, and not an error.

If they havn't rolled a stealth check, it doesn't mean the DC's 0.  It simply doesn't exsist.
It's like checking if 15 is more then a banna.

If you want to let people roll, a DC 5 (dex+lvl) + 5 (training it should have) + 5 (power bonus from the trait) = 15 + roll.  Or take 20 + dex = 25.  (about the same).



Ha ha, if you asked customer service "is 15 more than a banana?" half would say "yes", and half would say, "no," or perhaps half would simply reply, "potato."
But, yes, I get what you are saying, i.e., you can't make a Perception check against a Stealth check that doesn't exist. Exactly, my conclusion.

Given that it is not trained in Stealth it would be so easy to negate its lurker mechanic, thus, it would render the monster pointless from a design perspective, imo. Thus, I've decided to run it the way it is written. That is, no Stealth check, but that other hidden rules apply.
Thanks for your feedback.
Sign In to post comments