Control deck observations

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Slagstorm is the best sweeper in Standard (it comes down on turn 3 and can be 1-sided).

Sign in Blood + Faithless Looting is the best card draw engine.

Unburial Rites is good in either control or combo.

Nobody expects the Yemenese Inquisition! (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_...)

Thoughts? 

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-Blue is aggro.

-Red/White is Control.

-Black is midrange/aggro.

-Green is still Green.

Someone get a tourniquet, the color pie is bleeding! 
I think Mutilate is actually the best sweeper in standard. That said, Slagstorm gets an honorable mention for almost killing Resto Angel and Thrun and Titans.

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2011 States Top 4
Multiple 2013 IQ Top 4/8 Finishes
Designer of Top 8 States finishing MBC decks in 2011, 2010, and 2009 
Standard Forum - Iron Deck Builder Season One Champ

Favorite Quotes

"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance." - Laurence J. Peter 
"It is the province of knowledge to speak, and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes

I think Mutilate is actually the best sweeper in standard. That said, Slagstorm gets an honorable mention for almost killing Resto Angel and Thrun and Titans.


Mutilate has the most raw power, but I think Slagstorm is just better right now. It allows the control player to keep his finisher, it doesn't require you to play 20+ copies of a basic land, it comes down a turn earlier in the match-ups where that matters, and really now... how is a deck that's running black going to actually care about Thrun?

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Yes. Thrun is tough to get a hold of when there's mana dorks and Strangleroot Geists in the way.

Trust me on this if anything else. 

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2011 States Top 4
Multiple 2013 IQ Top 4/8 Finishes
Designer of Top 8 States finishing MBC decks in 2011, 2010, and 2009 
Standard Forum - Iron Deck Builder Season One Champ

Favorite Quotes

"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance." - Laurence J. Peter 
"It is the province of knowledge to speak, and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes

Yes. Thrun is tough to get a hold of when there's mana dorks and Strangleroot Geists in the way.

Trust me on this if anything else. 


The other nice part about running red is that I get Pillar of Flame. And again, Slag comes down on turn 3. That means you get to do the cutesy "respond to rancor with removal, untap for Slag" play. Also, I'm running Looting and Rites. My turn 4/5 >>> MBC's turn 4/5. Thrun is really not a problem.

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Won't be able to respond as long as Pillar is a sorcery.

Your turn 4/5 is not better than mine. Against any deck in the meta I force out the flash creatures and mutilate them.

Against a WRB reanimator/control deck? Reanimate your guy. I'll just kill it if I don't exile it or stick a Cage. On 5 I'm ready to Karn your big/big.

Slagstorm is fine man. Looting and Sign are good draw. Reanimation is good too. But nothing your deck does scares me when I'm playing MBC. Just saying. I'll grind you out eventually. 

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2011 States Top 4
Multiple 2013 IQ Top 4/8 Finishes
Designer of Top 8 States finishing MBC decks in 2011, 2010, and 2009 
Standard Forum - Iron Deck Builder Season One Champ

Favorite Quotes

"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance." - Laurence J. Peter 
"It is the province of knowledge to speak, and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes

I agree with Catowner about the venserlock. Its cute in Turbo-fog though.

I've been finding MBC to be really lackluster whenever I play against it. They either have multiple Sorin's Vengeance or they just die.

Mutilate is nice, but I've seriously been considering playing Cower in Fear (instant, -1/-1 1BB for those who don't know what limited jank does). Hits Elves nicely, can work as a fog in some situations, and can turn your blocks into very favorable situations. 

(at)MrEnglish22

Won't be able to respond as long as Pillar is a sorcery.

Your turn 4/5 is not better than mine. Against any deck in the meta I force out the flash creatures and mutilate them.

Against a WRB reanimator/control deck? Reanimate your guy. I'll just kill it if I don't exile it or stick a Cage. On 5 I'm ready to Karn your big/big.

Slagstorm is fine man. Looting and Sign are good draw. Reanimation is good too. But nothing your deck does scares me when I'm playing MBC. Just saying. I'll grind you out eventually. 


The Pillar and response comments are separate. Also, Karn is bad against G-Titan and I'm at the point of running 4... but anyways, I'm not interested in a deck-measuring contest (see what I did there? =P). I would be curious to see how the match plays out, however.

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JmAn, if you're playing a sorins vengeance build that's why. Most people do not know how to construct a strong mbc deck an there's so many opinions on the subject flying around it makes for a lot of white noise.

It has been completely hilarious to me that everyone who plays the archetype has looked to me in the past to provide suitable lists for it but for a brief flash in time now there are so many good cards everyone thinks they're the second coming regarding mbc decks.

If they resolve any of the following cards they are doing it wrong:
Wurm coil engine
Sorins vengeance
Liliana of the dark realms
Liliana of the veil
Lash writhe
Vampire nighthawk
Phyrexian obliterator
Nihil spell bomb
Duress main deck
Tragic slip
Doom blade
Black suns zenith

Note how all of these are great cards. They just don't make the best mbc deck right now because they are soft to the meta, don't do enough, or are worse on the curve than better cards.

S1, I'll test with you, but I don't care about standard much now that the pt season is over for me. Gotta start thinking about rotation decks to get ready for states.

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Boasts?

2011 States Top 4
Multiple 2013 IQ Top 4/8 Finishes
Designer of Top 8 States finishing MBC decks in 2011, 2010, and 2009 
Standard Forum - Iron Deck Builder Season One Champ

Favorite Quotes

"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance." - Laurence J. Peter 
"It is the province of knowledge to speak, and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes

JmAn, if you're playing a sorins vengeance build that's why. Most people do not know how to construct a strong mbc deck an there's so many opinions on the subject flying around it makes for a lot of white noise. It has been completely hilarious to me that everyone who plays the archetype has looked to me in the past to provide suitable lists for it but for a brief flash in time now there are so many good cards everyone thinks they're the second coming regarding mbc decks. If they resolve any of the following cards they are doing it wrong: Wurm coil engine Sorins vengeance Liliana of the dark realms Liliana of the veil Lash writhe Vampire nighthawk Phyrexian obliterator Nihil spell bomb Duress main deck Tragic slip Doom blade Black suns zenith Note how all of these are great cards. They just don't make the best mbc deck right now because they are soft to the meta, don't do enough, or are worse on the curve than better cards. S1, I'll test with you, but I don't care about standard much now that the pt season is over for me. Gotta start thinking about rotation decks to get ready for states.



I don't play MBC. I've been running RB, but I agree with your list except Tragic Slip. Being able to hit a few early drops that are important can be rather key in some matches. Not saying mainboard, but some sideboard in some matches it can be pretty nifty. 

(at)MrEnglish22

Is there even going to be a states event this year?

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slagstorm can't be the best sweeper because its in red and red is terribad.  control can't play red very well because it loses to angel then or anything big like hero and titans.  i've tried working control a million and one ways and i know that slagstorm is by no means the best.  day is still the best because of how absolute it can be.  maybe doing some big UW control that just goes over the top of everything is the way to go right now... off to try, since the format is boring as hell anyways....

Blue is the best color ever. How do you deal?  ------------------------------  Team GFG - "gulf, foxtrot, gulf" 

 

 

I produce Dubstep and House beats:

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Best Pauper Deck in the format, not close:

http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2974646#comment-49713276

 

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Nah, Red is just way different from what it normally is. The color has a surprising amount of tech right now (and Bonfire, but that card is just BS). I'm telling you, I really think WRB Reanimator has a shot right now. Even running the bad version with HEartless (which wasn't a bad idea, just not the deck I was trying to play), I still managed to do some very powerful things. I mostly lost to dumb luck - like missing my land drops every game.

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At least we now know why the metagame is so Control unfriendly. Zac Hill's article basically says "Wait, an Aggro deck that has a Mana Leak or Vapor Snag in it is a 'Disruptive Aggro' deck, and that's basically the same as Control, right?"
Nah, Red is just way different from what it normally is. The color has a surprising amount of tech right now (and Bonfire, but that card is just BS). I'm telling you, I really think WRB Reanimator has a shot right now. Even running the bad version with HEartless (which wasn't a bad idea, just not the deck I was trying to play), I still managed to do some very powerful things. I mostly lost to dumb luck - like missing my land drops every game.



WRB reanimator is certainly very fun and depending on how you build it really only gets blown out by Zealous Conscripts, but utilizing Grave Titan helps alleviate that problem a bit.  Also if I get a Liliana of the Veil out early and utilize her +1 a few times, you just straight up lock your opponent out of the game once you get that Griselbrand in play and refill your hand.

Also as much as I hate to admit it, considering I do love a good Slagstorm, against certain matchups Whipflare is just a blowout and doesn't have a double- requirement.  Destroys those elf combo decks, wrecks delver, can be a blowout against pod decks depending on their opener (generally better against naya since they have the shakier mana-base and are more likely to go t2 Borderland Ranger or t2 more mana dorks instead of t2 Blade Splicer if they kept a hand without really good mana).  Although Bonfire of the Damned is also great to just hardcast on turn 2 if you play a dork turn 1 as well.  Oh hey I get to 2-or-3-for-1 you, hurray!


At least we now know why the metagame is so Control unfriendly. Zac Hill's article basically says "Wait, an Aggro deck that has a Mana Leak or Vapor Snag in it is a 'Disruptive Aggro' deck, and that's basically the same as Control, right?"


Haaa, haha, just read that article.

It never works out this exactly in practice, but in some theoretical sense we feel like it would be awesome for twenty-five percent of an environment to be aggro, twenty-five percent to be midrange, twenty-five to be a combination of ramp and combo, and twenty-five to be a combination of control and disruptive aggro.
...
This model comes very close to accurately representing our ideal Standard environment, and we're pleased for the most part with how things have looked since we adopted it.


Well at least someone is. 

Lumping Delver in with control is the most disconcerting statement I've heard for a while.  So like, Delver is "control," Naya aggro is "midrange," and Zombies are "aggro."  SEE?  Healthy metagame.








My favored store just started having weekly Modern, so I guess that's that.  Meanwhile, enjoy the diverse standard metagame, Mr. Hill.

catowner wrote:
Welcome to 2012. Blue has the most efficient creatures, black has the all-in monocolored aggro deck, the most controlling deck in the format is green-red, control decks lose to aggro in attrition wars, and counterspells aren't an answer to fatties.
Islands wrote:
Pack Rat is like Bitterblossom and Tarmogoyf had a black baby.
JmAn, if you're playing a sorins vengeance build that's why. Most people do not know how to construct a strong mbc deck an there's so many opinions on the subject flying around it makes for a lot of white noise. It has been completely hilarious to me that everyone who plays the archetype has looked to me in the past to provide suitable lists for it but for a brief flash in time now there are so many good cards everyone thinks they're the second coming regarding mbc decks. If they resolve any of the following cards they are doing it wrong: Wurm coil engine Sorins vengeance Liliana of the dark realms Liliana of the veil Lash writhe Vampire nighthawk Phyrexian obliterator Nihil spell bomb Duress main deck Tragic slip Doom blade Black suns zenith Note how all of these are great cards. They just don't make the best mbc deck right now because they are soft to the meta, don't do enough, or are worse on the curve than better cards. S1, I'll test with you, but I don't care about standard much now that the pt season is over for me. Gotta start thinking about rotation decks to get ready for states.



I don't play MBC. I've been running RB, but I agree with your list except Tragic Slip. Being able to hit a few early drops that are important can be rather key in some matches. Not saying mainboard, but some sideboard in some matches it can be pretty nifty. 



Consider Go for the Throat. For one more mana, you can hit all the targets Tragic Slip hits, without having to set up morbid. There are very few creatures you really want to hit on turn 1, and you have Mutilate against overwhelming aggro.

MBC does not play a lot of creature, nor does it do a lot of spot-removal. Between Sever the Bloodline and the 4-5 spot removals, you'll often wish that Tragic Slip was something able to take on a Titan on its own.

No, Tragic Slip is not a good choice in MBC. Morbid is not easily achievable.

Rules Advisor

Quotes
76783093 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
58331438 wrote:
56945988 wrote:
Rancor dies to in-response removal.
Yeah... Until next game, where it'll be right back. Seriously, there's no way to deal with Rancor in any format. It should be banned, except Gleemax is a lobbyist for the Rancor party, so that'll never happen.
You can't ban rancor, it just returns to your deck.
58331438 wrote:
57461258 wrote:
You might want to actually talk to the Flavor & Storyline Board people... since, you know, our whole reason for playing Magic is the flavor. I'm willing to bet you'll get a lot more interest there than in General.
Indeed, both posters down there would be thrilled.
57817638 wrote:
I think I wasn't direct enough in my last post. I'll try to fix it now. Ahem... NO ONE CARES there you have it.
57471038 wrote:
When talks about banning Jace first started, I was thinking that I would see him banned come June 20th. But as I think more about it, I don't really think that Jace is the problem anymore. Sure his power level leaves very little to the imagination (opening Jace is like opening a refrigerator box with a naked girl on the inside), and sure his price does have a strong impact on what players choose to play (playing Jace is like being intimate with a woman and she doesn't charge you in the morning), but it is not the source of all the problems in Standard.
76973988 wrote:
How do people think saving room to print more abilities on cards is dumbing down the game?

Do you really think, say, Akroma would ever be printed if she said, "Akroma can block by creatures with this ability and cannot be blocked by creatures without this ability.  If a creature without this ability would deal combat damage by Akroma would be destroyed, prevent all combat damage that creature would deal to Akroma this combat.  Attacking does not cause Akroma to tap.  If Akroma is blocked and deals lethal damage, it deals the remainder of its damage to the defending player.  Akroma may attack and use abilities that require tapping in the casting cost the turn it enters the battlefield.  Akroma cannot be damaged, enchanted, equipped, blocked or targeted by black or red sources" rather than her "dumbed down" wording she has?  No freaking way.  Keywording and shorthand allows them to make complicated cards easy to play with, allowing them to be printed in the first place.
57817638 wrote:
The creation of praetors was worth it just because now amoeboid changeling is a praetor.
57140668 wrote:
1. cast frankie peanuts2. ask opponent "will you concede the game this turn"? if they say yes, you win; if they say no, play a staying power
3. subsequently ask "will you attack this turn"? and "will you cast a spell this turn"? (using a Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir for the second question if necessary) to ensure they can't disrupt the combo
4. donate them a platinum angel
5. play a mox lotus and braingeyser them for every card in their library. play an opalescence and donate them a glorious anthem and a blacker lotus, then play enchanted evening. play and activate a mindslaver and then donate them a fastbond and the mox lotus (returning one of the donates to your hand with eternal witness or whatever)
6. during their turn, play every permanent in their hand (playing lands with fastbond) then (as yourself) cast mirrorweave on the blacker lotus, so every permanent becomes a copy of it. proceed to tear up every card they control, and hopefully do it before they notice that they aren't bound by staying power's ability anymore and can concede
82423538 wrote:
57471038 wrote:
82423538 wrote:
One part of the statement being true=/=the whole statement true.
Whatever. I'm still here about ten minutes away. Whenever you want to get destroyed in Magic, I'm available.
I would like to get destroyed in Magic, actually. Do you know anybody good enough?
57617478 wrote:
Please format your statements in a way that doesn't look like a baboon hit its face on your keyboard.
57140668 wrote:
why did Garruk Relentless lose a loyalty counter
Show
to get to the other side
89522235 wrote:
You're such an obvious troll that you have hexproof and : Regenerate.
56957928 wrote:
56776038 wrote:
Dark Ritual being overpowered is determined more by what is done with it than the card itself.
True, but the fact that it enables so many ridiculous things is pretty telling. It's like, sure I can use a shotgun as a bludgeoning instrument, but that doesn't make it not a shotgun.
79035425 wrote:
Shortly before Serra died, she transferred her spark into an angel whose full name was Asha Avacyn Bolas. Her dragon father groomed her for her positions in Alara and Innistrad, and she's also been getting help from her uncle Ugin in the form of Urza, who was resurrected as Marit Lage to be the avatar as which she projects herself into material realms. Grieslbrand is a split personality who sometimes wanders the planes disguised as a human woman named Liliana Vess.
97610188 wrote:
Yeah that (Content Removed) really annoys me. Moderated by MY_self right about naahowwww!
93446159 wrote:
Dilleux_Lepaire just won the thread.
57461258 wrote:
And, as usual, Dilleux wins the entire thread. Nice work, sir, nice work.
99113151 wrote:
They need to make 9 layers of zones where cards go when they "die". Much like Hell.
56778328 wrote:
Wow, holy doggy poop, kids, obvious statement is obvious.
56776038 wrote:
122053101 wrote:
i don't think your geting it WotC is trying to kill the comption to make it so that there shity app is the only one left.
I haven't tried the app. How is its use of English grammar? Cheers!
57471038 wrote:
Everyone's life would be easier if players would, instead of coming to the 'net for help with a deck, just netdeck and be done with it. And I'm not talking about some Top 8 lists, for the Casualists, too, can benefit from netdecking. I've netdecked plenty of decks from the Casual Play forums from users such as Mown, Raedien, Floopfoot, and a few others. I snatched straight the heck out of my web browser. Yes, people, your original idea fell victim to a savage netdecker. You have been assimiliated. Suppose I wanted a Zombie deck. Why on earth would I spend time searching Gatherer for a decent list of Zombie cards when Raedien already did it for me? Taking time to be creative or waiting on people on the forums to tell you why your deck sucks or 'go to Casual forums' is a disasterous waste of time (to me).
56957928 wrote:
82423538 wrote:
If WotC started putting $100 bills in packs, the players would complain that they folded them wrong.
No, they just spam them with ban requests. That being said, Magic was ruined back in Alpha when they added all that rules and cards [Debutantes avert your eyes]. My friends and I still like playing it the "pure" way (Basically we go into the woods and hit eachother with wiffle bats while shouting made up obscenities. You know, the way Garfield wanted it to be played).
56957928 wrote:
Don't worry about it. I've come up with a list of changes to fix EDH. -First off, there's no commander. -The minimum deck size is 60 cards, and each deck can have up to four of each card, save basic lands and relentless rats. Also decks have no color identity. -Starting life total is 20. And voila, now things are balanced.
89522235 wrote:
Here's a clever play you can try yourself: -Convince friend to run relentless rats.dec in legacy tournament -Get a deck with lots of mill, yixlid jailer, and humility -Drop humility and jailer, wait for him to dump his hand, mill him out -All his rats now have no abilities. Call a judge because he's playing an illegal deck with more than 4 of a single card. -Get him/her banned from competitive magic play
142055101 wrote:
But how to mark them without making the individual sleeve different! You could buy a skunk and slam it's butt on you deck (pardon the french) Then after the game just sniff at your opponent's pile of cards and you will know if any of your cards are there!!!
141434757 wrote:
In Soviet Russia, Sorin opens You
71235715 wrote:
L, is for the leather gloves you weaaaar. O, is for the organs that guy could spaaaare. V, is very very, extraordinay. E, is for every vagrant i butchered in a wine cellar befooooore.
57052258 wrote:
The outer layer of the Magic: the Gathering box, the carton, or crust, is fairly thin and light, and contains largely aluminosilcates. Within that lies the middle layer, consisting of the familiar booster pack. Although solid, the booster packs' high temperatures allow them to acutally move around within the booster box. This flow, sometimes called convection, is cited by frustrated box mappers as one of WOTC's most genious uses of thermodynamics since the Ravnica block. No one knows what lies at the core of the booster box, but scientists theorize that it must be especially dense in order to make up for the large amount of fluff distributed amongst the booster packs.
58232598 wrote:
88993869 wrote:
Torpor Orb is absolutely godawful against Vexing Devil.
whoever is playing vexing devil is probably losing anyways
56957928 wrote:
I imagine [Ajani 3's] second ability involves him hurling the creature at your opponent Brion Stoutarm style, then the guy is just like "Okay, that may have worked, but don't- GOD DAMN IT!" as he does it again because cats don't give a **** :33.
56957928 wrote:
"Do or do not, there is no try." - Albus Dumbledore, The Lord of the Rings.
89522235 wrote:
68978039 wrote:
Its like that one time Elves broke out in a field of Jund. Elves became a resurgent hit, then died off again once Jund adapted to the rest of the field of G/W that it required mass removal that inherently pooped on Elves too. Submit to the menace. Delver can, and will blot out the sun.
Then we shall play in the shade.
89522235 wrote:
I'm sorry, this forum isn't for getting bad advice on mediocre decks, that's standard deck help. This forum is for starting ****storms.
97820278 wrote:
139359831 wrote:
Your advice would only lead me to make generic, boring, and unworthy content. It's of no use to me.
I just got this image of you as an architect, having finished a building suspended by only a small pole in its southwest corner, saying it's original. Then the building collapses.
56957928 wrote:
I for one love the flavor of legendary lands. "I remember my days as a youth at Tolarian Academy." "Wow, small multiverse, I actually went there too." "WAIT, DON'T- Well ****, there's $200,000 in student loans well spent."
56957928 wrote:
And flavor goes out the window when you cast a second copy of a planeswalker right after the first one dies, so... "Hey Nissa, I need a favor." "You just asked me for a 'favor' like thirty seconds ago, and it turned out to be having Sarkhan Transmogrify my only follower into a dragon like 5 times -which dickery aside also violates some laws of causality - and then you let me get beaten over the head by that hedron crab." "...I'll give you " "...Well all right then."
57150868 wrote:
GM, I don't think Dill is better than you. I KNOW it. Even if he wakes up every morning, clubs a baby seal, steals all the TV remotes from within a block's radius of his house and then robs hungry orphans of their food he'd be better than you, for the simple reason that he learns from his mistakes.
143211137 wrote:
57033358 wrote:
Tamiyo vs. Gideon
What would they have to fight about? Like, all I can think of now is Gideon going "Hey, long-ears! I'm gathering a group of 'Walkers together to fight some tentacle monsters.....you want in?" and Tamiyo going "Ew! Hentai no bakka Gideon-desu desu!" and flying away.
76783093 wrote:
I open 4 packs just to be on the safe side. Not only do I get more cards than everyone else, but I also get to spend the rest of the night off. Win Win.
191752181 wrote:
MaRo has a thing for people opening boosters with bad cards. But since he can only get so many bad cards printed in each set, he has found a devious way of getting more bad cards into circulation: He makes entire print sheets with just bad rares, then puts them onto the assembly line. He proceeds to wring his hands and twirl his evil mustache that he grew for twirling purposes as a lightning bolt strikes in the background. Afterwards, he goes to make sure that the good cards are only opened by everyone's friends, and that we all only get to open bad cards. He does this by memorising each booster, than switching them around accordingly. Whenever someone complains about a card, he immediately jumps out from behind a chair to yell "WELL, IT'S NOT FOR YOU!" before merging back into the shadows in order to devise new ways in which he can screw over players, then claim that he has valid reasons for doing so.
97820278 wrote:
192729031 wrote:
You open a booster pack, and staring back at you from the rare slot is a Lotleth Troll? At least I can stick him in my EDH deck and still have four for my standard constructed.
Because lol troll
56874518 wrote:
It helped that I more or less skipped most of GM_Champion's longer diatribes. I only have so many brain cells I'm willing to sacrifice each day.
192931349 wrote:
Mark Rosewater is sitting in a seemingly innocuous cable TV van, outside of Bankaimastery's house. Sitting nearby are two hardened criminal hackers, fresh out of prison, and filled with resentment at their lack of physical fitness. "Have you managed to hack his brainwaves yet? The set deadline's coming up fast." "We're almost through. It should be coming up on the screen any second." The hacker presses a button, and Kevin's thoughts flash onto the screen. Mark and the hackers stare in amazement at the sheer beauty, the elegance, and the raw truth of what they see. It's like the ending to 2001: A Space Odyssey. Brilliant light shines across the screen, the truth of existence is made clear to them, and they despair at their own foolishness, their own ignorance, their own inadequacy. And then they steal his ideas. As they return back to R&D, Mark sneers at a haggard old man chained to a cast-iron sphere. The man looks up from his laborious task of breaking rocks in the dungeon of Wizards of the Coast headquarters, and asks a question: "Kevin, my greatest student. He - he's all right, isn't he? You didn't hurt him?" Mark deals him a weighty blow with his boot. "Know your place, Richard. Get back to work."
57023768 wrote:
Now show me on the Garruk doll where Zac Hill ruined your enjoyment of Magic...
63711769 wrote:
I'm only opposed to it because it bears so little relation to how people actually play the game. The example of Miracles is actually a much better one then the Clone example I was trying to use. From the game's perspective, the card can move instantly from face down in the library to revealed in the hand and that's fine for the rules. But in real life, we can't actually do that, so the card spends a good bit of time in locations that are neither where that player's library is nor where that player's hand is. And that's fine for real life. What I don't want is the disconnect to be explicitly codified. Along the lines of
183664.697 A game of Magic as laid out by these rules exists only as a pure Platonic ideal, utterly unrealizable by fallible mortals limited by the confines of physicality and the ravages of evil and sin. 183664.698 The cake is a lie, too.
I know it's true, but I don't want the rules to actually straight-up tell me that.
147137503 wrote:
77120821 wrote:
Pfft this cant be serious can it? If it is please delete your account OP. Its not even close to ban worthy, considering what JTMS and stoneforge had to accomplish to get banned i see the WotC selling magic to aquire Pokemon before that ever happens.
I'm trying to imagine sorin markov as a gym leader in one of those pokemon games which you have to beat him to get his badge... somehow I imagine that he would stab you in the chest with his sword before giving you the badge, even if you beat his pokemon....
196239043 wrote:
Personally, I'd be fine with tea time but then I'm not gonna waste the mana summoning Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. He always takes all the sugar, drinks the whole pot of Earl Grey and doesn't even say thank you. SO. RUDE.

 

JustTerrorIt wrote:

 

JuliusPringle wrote:

All I want to do is sit down and play magic, but when I walked in yesterday, (since I didn't talk to anyone) nobody talked to me and I silently bought what I wanted and walked out.


If you don't talk to anyone, that increases the odds that no one will talk to you.

 

JuliusPringle wrote:

So how do I just... introduce myself? "Hi, my name is Adam, wanna play magic with me?" Do I go to the counter and talk to the cashier?


Yeah. Talk to the cashier. Tell him/her that you want a Black Lotus, and if they don't have one tell them that the store isn't on par with what you expected.

 

Reach into your back left pocket. Pull out a deck list that you copied directly from some ChannelFireball top 8 Standard discussion, and ask for all the cards, as is, on that list. Then, ask for some random, probably terrible cards from whatever set is Standard legal. Say it's tech for the upcoming changes in the metagame.

 

Pull out a deck, and tell some random dude you wanna test (you have to use the term "test" for this to work) for Standard. Make sure that deck contains Kitchen Finks and Alluring Siren. Maybe throw in Nyxathid for good measure.

 

Finally, before you leave, spill (make it look like an accident) one hundred singleton, random cards onto the floor. Pick them up, put them in a pile, and say "EEE-DEE-AYCH".

 

I know this sounds dumb at first, but it will work. With the method outlined above, you will draw the attention of players that play older formats by asking for cards that no one on Earth can reasonably afford. You will get the attention of the wanna-be pro, Stomp-n00bz players by pulling out a well known decklist and declare that you have "tech" to make it better. You will get the attention of all the kind, helpful players by seemingly not knowing the most common format by having non-Standard legal cards in a deck that you claim is Standard legal. Finally, you catch all the rest of the Magic players by saying "EEE-DEE-AYCH" (EDH (or Commander)).

And there you have it. You will be talking to more people than you would have wanted to talk to in no time.

 

Smoke_Stack wrote:

EDH is the best format anyway


See, it's starting already.

 

Break the Card
What is Break the Card?
Break the Card is a regular thread in the Cards and Combo Forum. Quite simply, the participants are given a Johnnystatic card (e.g. Xenograft) and are asked to build a deck around it. The winner and honorable mentions are sigged below. Get brewing!
Week 1 : Xenograft
This week's Break the Card was based around Xenograft. Thread : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27681049/Break_the_card_:_Xenograft?pg=1 Winner : Axterix with his Vampdrazi deck. Finalist : Vektor480 with his Ally/Golem/Plant deck. Honorable mentions : Zammm for the Turntimber Ranger combo and TinGorilla for suggesting Sarkhan the Mad.
Week 2 : Mindlock Orb
Here's the link to the Mindlock Orb contest : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27697565/Break_the_Card_:_Mindlock_Orb?sdb=1&pg=last#497536269 Winner : Axterix with his Maralen of the Mornsong deck. Honorable mentions : Void_Elemental.
Week 3 : Bludgeon Brawl
Here's the link to Break the Card : Bludgeon Brawl : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27715169/Break_the_Card_:_Bludgeon_Brawl?sdb=1&pg=last#498208797 Winner : Vektor and his Grab the World deck. Finalist : Crandor with his Awesome Aliteration deck. Honorable mentions : RP Jesus with his Wat deck and Zix200 with his Signet Renewal deck.
Week 4 : Followed Footsteps
This week was Followed Footsteps : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27748677/Break_the_Card_:_Followed_Footsteps?pg=1 Winner : Tevish_Szat with his Exponential Growth deck. Honorable mentions : Zix with his Carbon Copies deck and Escef with his Fungus of Speed and Time deck.
Week 5 : Delaying Shield
This week's card was Delaying Shield : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27790101/Break_the_Card_:_Delaying_Shield Winner : Tevish_Szat. Finalist : Vampire_Bat. Honorable Mention : Zix200.
Week 6 : Painter's Servant
This week's card was Painter's Servant : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27940861/Break_the_Card_:_Painters_Servant?pg=1 Winner : Tevish_Szat with his Paint it Black deck. Finalist : Wprundv with his Tiger, Tiger Painted Bright deck.
Week 7 : Venser, the Sojourner
This week's card was Venser, the Sojourner : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27977489/Break_the_Card_:_Venser,_the_Sojourner Winner : Izzett with her "Venser, Trickster Trader" deck. Finalist : Wprundv with his "Tactical Sojourner Action" deck.
Week 8 : Personal Sanctuary
This week's card was Personal Sanctuary : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28005461/Break_the_card_:_Personal_Sanctuary Winner : MrQuizzles. Honorable mention : Vampire_Bat and UbberSheep
Week 9 : Sundial of the Infinite
This week's card was Sundial of the Infinite : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28038277/Break_the_card_:_Sundial_of_the_Infinite Finalist : Izzett with her "Afterlife Trespassers" deck. Winner : Xeromus with his "Fortune 500" deck.
Week 10 : Jace's Archivist
This week's card was Jace's Archivist : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28063377/Break_the_Card_:_Jaces_Archivist. Finalists : Jentaru with his "Consecration of the Draw" deck and HereticSmitty with his "ADHD: The deck" deck. Winner : JaxsonBateman with his "The Archives Are Endless!" deck.
Week 11 : Search the City
This week's card was Search the City : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29518555/Break_the_Card_:_Search_the_City Finalist : Mown with "A Thousand Footsteps". Winner : Desolation_masticore with "Burn the City".
Week 12 : Fiend Hunter
This week's card was Fiend Hunter : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29530975/Break_the_Card_:_Fiend_Hunter Winner : Yuyu63 with "Carnival Hunting". Honorable mention : Dknowle's "Champion the Fiend".
Week 13 : Clock of Omens
This week's card was Clock of Omens : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29541549/Break_the_Card_:_Clock_of_Omens?pg=1 Winner : Dknowle's "The Myrs Go Marching".
Week 14 : Light of Sanction
This week's card was Light of Sanction : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29607219/Break_the_Card_:_Light_of_Sanction?pg=1 Winner : Zauzich's "Divine Plague".
Week 15 : Assemble the Legion
This week's card was Assemble the Legion : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29662307/Break_the_Card_:_Assemble_the_Legion Winner : JBTM's "Some Assembly Required".
Week 16 : High Tide
This week's cards were High Tide and/or Bubbling Muck : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29760427/Break_the_Card_:_High_Tide Winner : Mown's "Puppet Strings".
Week 17 : Illusionist's Bracers
This week's card was Illusionist's Bracers : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29776943/Break_the_Card_:_Illusionistss_Bracers Winner : Enigma256's "Tezzeret's Bracers"
Week 18 : Savor the Moment
This week's card was Savor the Moment : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29787235/Break_the_Card_:_Savor_the_Moment Winner : POSValkir's "A Savory Filibuster!"
Week 19 : Grinning Ignus
This week's card was Grinning Ignus : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29795547/Break_the_Card_:_Grinning_Ignus Winner : dknowle's "Luren' and Laughin'".
Week 20 : Transcendence
This week's card was Transcendence : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29806481/Break_the_Card_:_Transcendence Winners : Mown's "Transcending Timing Restrictions" and Dknowle's "Blinded by Greed", tied for the win.
Week 21 : Mortus Strider
This week's card was Mortus Strider : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29818471/Break_the_Card_:_Mortus_Strider Winner : SimonGlume's "Mortus Head".
Week 22 : High Priest of Penance
This week's card was High Priest of Penance : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29917231/Break_the_Card_High_Priest_of_Penance Winners : JBTM's "Two Clerics and a Goblin walk into a (Bom)bar(dment)..." and POSValkir1's "Choke Their Rivers with Our Dead!".
Week 23 : False Cure
This week's card was False Cure :http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29964239/Break_the_Card_:_False_Cure Winner : Dknowle's "When Hippos Fly".

Week 24 : Akroan Horse

This week's card was Akroan Horse : http://community.wizards.com/forum/cards-and-combos/threads/4024821.

Winner : Dknowle's "Indian Giver".

Week 25 : Leylines

This week saw multiple cards being in the contest : all of the Leylines! http://community.wizards.com/forum/cards-and-combos/threads/4067621

Winner : POSValkir1's "Laying the Battle Lines".

Frankly, I haven't been disappointed by Terminus, sometimes it forces the game into a state of oblviion early, othertimes it's a wrath that dodges the numerous landmines set up for Day of Judgment.

Also, I think Mr. Hill is a bit of an asshat for expecting players to be happy with having to play with specific card types (other than lands ofcourse)
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zac hill has moved up to basically the top of my least favorite people at WOTC

Blue is the best color ever. How do you deal?  ------------------------------  Team GFG - "gulf, foxtrot, gulf" 

 

 

I produce Dubstep and House beats:

https://soundcloud.com/burning_forest

 

Best Pauper Deck in the format, not close:

http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2974646#comment-49713276

 

Photobucket

Zac Hill is a moron. He somehow does not realize that Grafdigger's Cage is not "narrow, pinpoint hate" since it hits, you know, 90% of Standard decks (and a fair number of Legacy/Modern ones).

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My point exactly.

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zac hill has moved up to basically the top of my least favorite people at WOTC


He was close to the top of mine, but now he's jumped up about fifty ranks. There aren't even fifty people on the list. I'm having to make up imaginary baby-eaters in order to get him into his proper position.

Hyperbole? Maybe. But Zac Hill as about as much of an idea about what constitutes good design as some of the people who make up fake Magic cards.
zac hill has moved up to basically the top of my least favorite people at WOTC



I totally agree the guy is a complete douche.

Check out my twitch.tv stream below where I play magic online limited queues. Don't forget to follow if you enjoy what I'm presenting to show your support!

http://twitch.tv/dpg20__

 

zac hill has moved up to basically the top of my least favorite people at WOTC



I totally agree the guy is a complete douche.



Just look at that picture of him at the  beginning of the article. Look at it. His face begs to be struck.

Is it his goddamn job to shill for the Magic brand? 'Cause that's how it comes across. "No, everything's fine, move along, nothing to see here."

Lumping Delver-style tempo or aggro-control decks in with control decks is silly. What is the similarity besides using counters? And lumping in what they apparently consider combo with ramp does seem to make complete sense either.
Yeah, zac hill needs to be fired, along with the rest of the people perpetuating this "balanced" metagame. They dont get that UW tempo is going to regularly top the standard meta whenever they make it available.

(at)MrEnglish22

Not so sure about that, and hell I even like Grafdigger's Cage  and Cavern of Souls (though why it doesn't CIPT is still beyond me). What I don't like is the kind of audacity required to justify  objects that obviously polarize the playerbase in terms of "should this tool exist or not", as that is totally up to us to hash out amongst ourselves. This is to say that Zac Hill just seems so uncomfortable with the product he develops that he cannot allow it to speak for itself, and even further, tries to relate to competitive players to justify designs that are obviously going to have polarizing opinions. And when he says things like "Mana Leak is a relic", but was involved in the development of Scars block (y'know, where they finished a cycle that should have never been finished, and his name is one the two later sets, both of which contained even more borked swords than most of us thought possible.)

This is comparable to Reggie Fils-Aime giggling and smiling while he tells Nintendo fans that NoA refuses to translate games  in spite of a large followings that want to purchase the product because it requires the investment of translation and packaging.

What's truly frustrating is that he tries to justify our distaste for his skills as a developer as us "being out of touch with where Magic is", and pushing the idea that Magic needs to be more like other popular TCGs to thrive, when IT is the game that sets trends, that sets should be developed with polarity of power (a 'la Dark Ascension) with "wanting to make the game more accessible". The reason why he's so frustrating, but Mark Rosewater isn't, is because MaRo isn't trying to tell us that we're wrong about having passionate opinions about the game's current state (he even encourages it and tries to adapt it), but Zac Hill has too much fun trying to tout about how great the image that "The Pit" carries is, that he'll try to justify any misgivings we have, or that he knows we will have, as being closed minded for expecting the development team to give us the tools for strong competitive environments.
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I wonder if Mr. Hill reads these forums or other blog responses to his mouth garbage or if he locks himself in his fantasy land where he thinks he has a grasp on reality.

I know that if my customers/followers were having the type of response I see here or on the thread from his article, that I would quickly address the concerns that were put forth.  That's called customer service.
56735468 wrote:
Residual energetic and psychic emenations from the spark of planewalkers going in and out of the blind eternities like it was a windmill eventually coalesced into beings named eldrazi who by their very nature could not consume mundane sources of nourishment to sustain their existence.
Thread summary for the current topic:

-Whoever happens to be the voice of R&D and writes the Latest Developments column is a total vegetable and utterly clueless about what constitutes a good magic game/design.
-Metagame sucks (what the meta is actually like is irrelevant, it sucks).

It's the same whining every single year because all the armchair devs around here certainly know better and have the credibility to back them up. One really has to wonder why some people play this game to begin with if basically everything is messed up all the time.

Meanwhile in the real world, the game itself is at all time high in both sales and competitive play. Man those R&D guys surely don't know a thing about their job.

Meanwhile in the real world, the game itself is at all time high in both sales and competitive play. Man those R&D guys surely don't know a thing about their job.



Of course its at an all time high. Look at all the power they put into creatures, it makes it more attractive for newer players and scrubs who think spells are dumb. In terms of competitive play, you also don't account for the resurgence of a Legacy scene [minor, i know] and the relative success of Modern. Standard is probably the most competitive format but it doesn't mean its necessarily good.
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standard isn't very good right now because of how limited your options are.  there is no combo.  there is virtually no control, and you basically have 3 aggro-esque decks battling each other.

birds decks, delver/snapcaster decks, and zombies, and then the minor percentage category of "other"

this isn't a good metagame, at least in my humble opinion.  but i'm sure there are other who agree with this sentiment.

if you like bashing with dudes, great, but for those of us who really don't, this isn't a fun time to play magic.  i haven't done any events lately because i don't enjoy standard and every other format online is worthless.  i just play whatever matches to try out decks, figure out they fail, and move on.

otherwise, i stick with draft.... which is basically draft green or lose.

 

Blue is the best color ever. How do you deal?  ------------------------------  Team GFG - "gulf, foxtrot, gulf" 

 

 

I produce Dubstep and House beats:

https://soundcloud.com/burning_forest

 

Best Pauper Deck in the format, not close:

http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2974646#comment-49713276

 

Photobucket


Meanwhile in the real world, the game itself is at all time high in both sales and competitive play. Man those R&D guys surely don't know a thing about their job.



Of course its at an all time high. Look at all the power they put into creatures, it makes it more attractive for newer players and scrubs who think spells are dumb. In terms of competitive play, you also don't account for the resurgence of a Legacy scene [minor, i know] and the relative success of Modern. Standard is probably the most competitive format but it doesn't mean its necessarily good.



I disagree about creatures getting hollistically better, because I think it's a matter of many spells that have nothing to do with combat getting significantly worse. Honestly we've gotten to the point where Unsummon with a 1 point damage clause is premiere material to keep creatures in check, or the point where a super Fireball is now the chase card among chase cards in the format. We've gotten the point where an arguably better Hallowed Burial sees little play, but the return of Mutilate is heralded as archetype defining. But what about the real monster spells in the format? Entreat the Angels, the Zenith cycle, the Increasing Cycle, Sorin's Vengeance etc are all fine cards, but you can't support the decks that play them properly  because you have to give up extra slots for mass removal, spot removal or pseudo removal because that is what most other spells have been turned into. I think RtR will probably stray away from this (hopefully) because this is just a nasty combination of wickedly good equipment and a lack of non-creature/combat based spellplay.
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Keep things civil and regardless if you think certain writers deserve disrespectful comments just keep them to yourself. First and only warning.

Thank You,
Cage
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Fair enough, but is it "disrespectful" to say that the writer is out of touch with the fanbase and what we think the meta is truly like?
56735468 wrote:
Residual energetic and psychic emenations from the spark of planewalkers going in and out of the blind eternities like it was a windmill eventually coalesced into beings named eldrazi who by their very nature could not consume mundane sources of nourishment to sustain their existence.
I wonder if Mr. Hill reads these forums or other blog responses to his mouth garbage or if he locks himself in his fantasy land where he thinks he has a grasp on reality.

I know that if my customers/followers were having the type of response I see here or on the thread from his article, that I would quickly address the concerns that were put forth.  That's called customer service.



His Twitter feed suggests he reads at least some forum posts about him, but he disregards the opinions there in almost out of hand. He's a professional developer, therefore he knows more about the metagame and archetype theory than the player base. 
The problem I have isn't so much that he doesn't have a hard job or whatever, its that he and the other decision makers have decided that the vision they have for magic is going to be radically different than it has been for years, and many of the changes they are making are ones which completely invalidate large swaths of gameplay options. They make assumptions that the changes they make are going to be ones that their playerbase is going to enjoy, and that they just don't care if they are wrong.

(at)MrEnglish22


We can live with mistakes to a degree, but it's when they intentionally narrow the game that we suffer.

I'll make the same point I made in the mtg.com thread

How is having aggro, combo, control, midrange, ramp and tempo; worse than having aggro, midrange, ramp and tempo?

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B_F, Jman, Cyrus, agreed.  Jman, that was a really good way to put it, and exactly sums up my grief with R&D.  It's not that they're not good at designing stuff.  It's that they're specifically steering the design of the entire game in a new direction by limiting options, and if you haven't been following MaRo's articles for the last couple years, yeah, it's intentional. 

An excerpt from Rosewater's "New World Order" in 2011:
I've talked about this before that players will do whatever the game incentivizes them to do whether or not that thing is fun. The goal of a game designer is to make the incentives move the players towards the parts of the game that are fun. Tracking lots of information is not what makes Magicfun, yet complexity applied to the wrong places can make that the focus. By stripping away the complexity at common {rarity}, we were able to move the focus back to things like combat and spell casting.

For those that are worried that this is boring, I ask you to simply try the following experiment. Make two decks of just vanilla creatures and common sorceries. (This is very similar to a beginner product we made long ago named Portal.) Find a player of a similar skill level to your own and play the decks against each other. What you will find is that these games are actually quite interesting. It's easy to get caught up in all the complexity of Magic that you forget how much fun the base of the game is—and not just fun, skillful.


...R&D set out to solve an acquisition problem and ended up with a way to refresh the essence of the game. Making the game better for one section of the audience led to making it better for all sections.



So they think they're simplifying the entry level comprehension requirement by largely cutting complex themes from the game, removing comprehension complexity from common rarities and moving them to higher rarities, meanwhile emphasizing creature combat and simplifying interactivity.  And supposedly this still rewards skillful play.

Accessibility is not inherently bad, since if Magic doesn't keep acquiring new players the game dwindles away.  But in recent years, their focus on new player acquisition has far overshadowed deveopment of strategic complexity, at the cost of alienating more experienced players.  It's a tough balance and they've struggled with it, but I think they've tipped it too much toward acquisition.

They've deliberately created a meta in which it's actually impossible for competitive non-combat based strategies to exist.  My reaction is that cutting strategies players have had for twenty years isn't good design, and it alienates longtime core competitive players. 

R&D is taking a very risky bet --  that the design shift attracts larger numbers of new players to simpler strategies, and that the new player base is going to be more profitable than the long-standing competitive core.  So far, they've achieved the first part since event turnouts and sales(?) are increasing steadily, but whether it's sustainable..?  What happens to the integrity of the game if they chase away their core players?  Do the new guys stick around, and if so, in what numbers?  If not more than where they are now, what has R&D accomplished?

catowner wrote:
Welcome to 2012. Blue has the most efficient creatures, black has the all-in monocolored aggro deck, the most controlling deck in the format is green-red, control decks lose to aggro in attrition wars, and counterspells aren't an answer to fatties.
Islands wrote:
Pack Rat is like Bitterblossom and Tarmogoyf had a black baby.
Another bit about this "incredible" new vision of theirs that bothers me: They lump ramp in with midrange, and I would rather it be lumped in with combo. I want rock style decks back. If they printed Greater Good in RTR I would be 100% playing Magic for at least until the release of M14 (When Thragtusk will likely leave). 
Either way, RTR is going to be a real make-or-break for me as a MTG player. 

(at)MrEnglish22


Either way, RTR is going to be a real make-or-break for me as a MTG player. 



yea, i'm sadly at this point too.  like, i'm not having any real fun with the game.  the creature on creature games get really old and when i can't play my archetype (call me unskilled or without range) of control, i get pretty down on magic.

Blue is the best color ever. How do you deal?  ------------------------------  Team GFG - "gulf, foxtrot, gulf" 

 

 

I produce Dubstep and House beats:

https://soundcloud.com/burning_forest

 

Best Pauper Deck in the format, not close:

http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2974646#comment-49713276

 

Photobucket

i'm currently running a w/b/r control deck thats doing pretty well (granted it's just fnm's) but i'd be glad for some constructive critisism if someone wants to take a look at the list.
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