[legacy] b/w control

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I'm new to the game and I'm trying to build my first deck, so any help will be appreciated.

For now I'm thinking in building the following deck:

Lands(20):
4 x Arcane Sanctum

4 x Azorius Chancery
4 x Forbidding Watchtower
4 x Celestial Colonnade
4 x Halimar Depths

Instants(16):
4 x Forbid
4 x Counterspell
4 x Dissipate
4 x Counterbore

Sorceries(19):
4 x Terminus
4 x Martial Coup
4 x Polymorph
4 x Planar Cleansing
3 x Long-Term Plans

Artifacts(4):
4 x Elixir of Immortality

Creatures(1):
1 x Progenitus

Sidedeck(15):
3 x Extract
4 x Redirect
4 x Day of Judgment
4 x Spell Burst

Deck Mechanics:

1 - Blue instants to counter my oponent spell, to slow him down and try to break his game strategy (Forbid can also enable me to discard Progenitus, to have him return to the library).

2 - White sorceries to clean up the batlefield from the permanents that weren't countered by the counterspells.

3 - Forbidding Watchtower and Celestial Colonnade to be able to defend and even attack, if needed.

4 - Elixir of Immortality to recover life points and cards.

5 - Long-Term Plans + Halimar Depths to get a Polymorph, if needed.

6 - Polymorph a token (from Martial Coup) or one of the Forbidding Watchtower's to put Progenitus in the battlefield.

7 - Win the game.


I 'm thinking about adding Elspeth, Knight-Errant for her first and last abilities: to get tokens to protect my life points and then to be able to make them indestructible and to make my Celestial Colonnade indesctructible in creature mod - a 4/4 indesctrutible creature with flying. But I'm not sure witch card to remove to add her.

Any tips and sugestions will be appreciated.
At first glance, I would note that all of your lands are ones that are going to enter tapped, so you're going to be at least a turn behind on mana curb. Never underestimate basic lands!
What is your Budget? Is this for play in Legacy Tournaments?

At first glance, I would note that all of your lands are ones that are going to enter tapped, so you're going to be at least a turn behind on mana curb. Never underestimate basic lands!

Yep. And I would also be running 24 Lands here.

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At first glance, I would note that all of your lands are ones that are going to enter tapped, so you're going to be at least a turn behind on mana curb. Never underestimate basic lands!

I'm aware of that issue,  but if I use basic lands, I will lose the dual color production, unless I play a huge amount of €€€ to have lands that can produce 2 mana, but enter the field untaped. If I lose that capacity, I can have troubles to cast spells from one of the colors.

And then there's Halimar Depths ability to control my library (that can be combined with Long-Term Planing) and  Forbidding Watchtower and Celestial Colonnade ability to become creatures. Azorius chancery can also help in those situation when my bad luck prevent's me from drawing lands.

But I think I can take out the 4 Arcane Sanctum and put 4 Glacial Fortress.

My first turns will be crucial, I know, but in the long run the capabilities of these lands can help offset the smaller mana curve.

Any thought's about this and other's issues?
 
Glacial Fortress won't help you whatsoever if you have NO PLAINS or ISLANDS.  It's still going to enter tapped.
What is your Budget? Is this for play in Legacy Tournaments?

At first glance, I would note that all of your lands are ones that are going to enter tapped, so you're going to be at least a turn behind on mana curb. Never underestimate basic lands!

Yep. And I would also be running 24 Lands here.




I play with some friends, not in tournments. My budget it's flexible, since I tend to spend a few €€ each mounth, so I'm thinking to build this deck during the following mounths (already have at least 28 of these cards - that's from them I got the ideia for this deck). The limitations I impose to myself are: 5€ for a card, 20€ if it is a key card (like Progenitus).

What cards would I take out and what lands to put in? 
Glacial Fortress won't help you whatsoever if you have NO PLAINS or ISLANDS.  It's still going to enter tapped.



Not exactly:


Rulings










10/1/2009This checks for lands you control with the land type Plains or Island, not for lands named Plains or Island. The lands it checks for don't have to be basic lands. For example, if you control Watery Grave (a nonbasic land with the land types Island and Swamp), Glacial Fortress will enter the battlefield untapped.



 
The ruling is irrelevant since you have no non-basic Islands or Plains either.
Here is the Land Base I would use:

4 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Nimbus Maze
4 Adarkar Wastes 
6 Island
6 Plains 

I would consider replacing Martial Coup with Day Of Judgment and Terminus with Wrath Of God.

You also need Draw. I would replace 2 Elixir Of Immortality  and 2 CounterBore with 4 PreOrdain. And I would replace Planar Cleansing with Ponder.

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Here is the Land Base I would use:

4 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Nimbus Maze
4 Adarkar Wastes 
6 Island
6 Plains 

I would consider replacing Martial Coup with Day Of Judgment and Terminus with Wrath Of God.

You also need Draw. I would replace 2 Elixir Of Immortality  and 2 CounterBore with 4 PreOrdain. And I would replace Planar Cleansing with Ponder.



So you would take out the manlands and the token producer and run 4 polymorphs without a target and 1 progenitus which can't be cast?
Here is the Land Base I would use:

4 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Nimbus Maze
4 Adarkar Wastes 
6 Island
6 Plains 

I would consider replacing Martial Coup with Day Of Judgment and Terminus with Wrath Of God.

You also need Draw. I would replace 2 Elixir Of Immortality  and 2 CounterBore with 4 PreOrdain. And I would replace Planar Cleansing with Ponder.



Martial coup it's one of the key cards of the deck, I need it to have tokens to target with polymorph and if I have the mana, I can destroy my oponent creatures.

Terminus can be cast with 1 white mana, if I'm lucky ... or use my deck search engine ... and it can take out of the battlefield the majority of the creatures present in the game, including those that are indestructible, or that have undying, shroud or hexproof  ...

I already have a powerful tool to help me get the cars I need, in the form of Long-Term Plans if possible combined with Halimar Depths and this one it's an Island combined with Ponder, it's like putting an Island on the battlefield and the using Ponder. PreOrdain don't seem to be a powerful card, capable of replacing Elixir of Immortality and Counterbore since the first can help me survive long enough to cast Progenitus and the second can take out entire sets of cards ... can even kill combos, by removing 1 key card from the game.

As for lands, Halimar Depths can help me get a card that I need, when combined with Long-Term Plans.

Forbidding Watchtower can help protect my life points, since it can be transformed into a 1/5 creature and can also be used to cast Polymorph.

Celestial Colonnade can also help protect my life points and I'm considering adding a Elspeth, Knight-Errant to combine it with the Celestial Colonnade, so that I can have a back up plan, in case my main strategy fails.

Azorius Chancery can help me reuse Halimar Depths ability, by sending it back to my hand .... but I can replace it for another land, the same for Arcane Sanctum.

Here is the Land Base I would use:

4 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Nimbus Maze
4 Adarkar Wastes 
6 Island
6 Plains 

I would consider replacing Martial Coup with Day Of Judgment and Terminus with Wrath Of God.

You also need Draw. I would replace 2 Elixir Of Immortality  and 2 CounterBore with 4 PreOrdain. And I would replace Planar Cleansing with Ponder.

 

So you would take out the manlands and the token producer and run 4 polymorphs without a target and 1 progenitus which can't be cast?



Of course that I can't take out the manlands and the Martial coup, but here's definitly problems in the mana departament, do you have a suggestion? Idea?

Martial coup
 it's one of the key cards of the deck, I need it to have tokens to target with polymorph and if I have the mana, I can destroy my oponent creatures.

There are far better token creators out there, and you really have no need for 12 sweepers in this deck.  I think the deck would do far better with a spell like midnight haunting or timely reinforcements.  If this isn't for multiplayer, you will do fine with a few sweepers and then spot removal/bounce like path to exile/oblivion ring and boomerang/vapor snag.

Terminus
 can be cast with 1 white mana, if I'm lucky ... or use my deck search engine ... and it can take out of the battlefield the majority of the creatures present in the game, including those that are indestructible, or that have undying, shroud or hexproof  ...

I semi agree with this, with the exception I stated before: 12 sweepers is a lot, so I would choose between this and planar cleansing and then wittle down what you keep.

I already have a powerful tool to help me get the cars I need, in the form of Long-Term Plans if possible combined with Halimar Depths and this one it's an Island combined with Ponder, it's like putting an Island on the battlefield and the using Ponder. PreOrdain don't seem to be a powerful card, capable of replacing Elixir of Immortality and Counterbore since the first can help me survive long enough to cast Progenitus and the second can take out entire sets of cards ... can even kill combos, by removing 1 key card from the game.


This is not what I would consider to be a powerful tool by any means.   It's actually pretty slow in my book, topped off by the already slow manabase.  Ponder very easily replaces the effect of halimar depths, as the ponder will put it into your hand, rather than just on top of your deck. It's also not really an island mized with ponder, as it EtB tapped, thus you couldn't use it the turn you play it.  Heck, I'd much rather see you running cards like mystical tutor and sensei's divining top, but they may be out of budget.  Counterbore is also way to high casting of a counter.  Sure, it gets rid of copies, but even just running counterspell saves you .  As a control deck, you should have plenty of other control to deal with a combo deck.

Forbidding Watchtower
 can help protect my life points, since it can be transformed into a 1/5 creature and can also be used to cast Polymorph.

Celestial Colonnade can also help protect my life points and I'm considering adding a Elspeth, Knight-Errant to combine it with the Celestial Colonnade, so that I can have a back up plan, in case my main strategy fails.

You already have a slow mana base, and now you're talking about blowing up your lands? No good.  I'd rather see more tokens than that.  Don't get me wrong, manlands could be you're your other wincon, just don't think about blowing them up unless it's a last resort.


You have a great strategy going on: polymorphing into a big creature is a good deck idea, I just don't think you're all there yet.  I'd also recommend having 2 creature for polymorph, whether that's 2 proggys or he and emmy, it does't matter, but having 2 allows one to be in your hand and still polymorph,.

Great, idea, and sorry if I sounded harsh, but you should keep working at it and you'll have a great deck


As mentioned previously you have a very slow mana base. This will cause you to lose more games that you wish to since you will be constantly a turn behind. Also you aren't really doing anything your early turns except maybe countering. Even then you don't necessarily have the counter since you have very little library manipulation or draw to keep your hand full of cards. 

As mentioned above, Polymorph is a good strategy, but the deck as it is will probably be eaten alive by fast aggro.

I would recommend getting some basics in there. Those would help you out a lot in regards to your speed. You typically will not need more than 8 duals anyway in a two color deck. No need to sacrifice your speed unnecessarily.
My Trade Thread Control capabilities are in all the colors. The difference is in the way they say no.
Even putting aside the 'all your lands come in tapped', you die to the massive amount of nonbasic hate that's around in Legacy, even at a casual level.

Blood moon
Magus of the Moon
Price of Progress
Wasteland
Ghost Quarter

and so on.

If you're on a budget, i'd mostly go basics and a couple things like Adarkar Wastes to help smooth it.

You have a great strategy going on: polymorphing into a big creature is a good deck idea, I just don't think you're all there yet.  I'd also recommend having 2 creature for polymorph, whether that's 2 proggys or he and emmy, it does't matter, but having 2 allows one to be in your hand and still polymorph,.

Great, idea, and sorry if I sounded harsh, but you should keep working at it and you'll have a great deck



You made some good points and you didn't sound harsh.

 So, after reading the coments I made some alterations to the deck:

To improve mana production speed, I will remove 4 Arcane Sanctums, 4 Azorius Chancery and 4 Halimar Dephts. To replace them, I will add 4 Mystic Gates, 6 Islands and 2 Plains.

To improve my manipulation of the library, I will maitain 3 Long-Term Plans and add 4 Enlightened Tutors, 4 Mistical tutors and a Sensei's Divining Top.

In the Instants department, with the addition of the tutors, I will remove 4 counterbore, 1 counterspell and 1 dissipate.

To reduce the sweepers and to make room for other cards, I will tale out 4 Planar Planar Cleansing to the sideboard, and I will remove 1 Terminus and 1 Martial Coup.

As for counterspells, I will add Isochron Scepter to use try to have one permanent counterspell.

As for creatures, I will add 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, to reduce the risk of only playing with Progenitus.

I will also add Elspeth, Knight-Errant, as Planeswalker, to improve my defenses with her capability to create tokens and to make all my creatures indestructible.

In my side deck, I will remove the 3 Extract's and the 4 Spell Burts, to add 4 Brainstorm and 4 Planar Cleansing. 


So, my deck would look like this:


Lands(20):
4 x Forbidding Watchtower
4 x Celestial Colonnade
4 x Mystic Gate
6 x Island
2 x Plains


Instants(18):
4 x Forbid
3 x Counterspell
3 x Dissipate
4 x Enlightened Tutor
4 x Mystical tutor


Sorceries(13):
3 x Terminus
3 x Martial Coup
4 x Polymorph
3 x Long-Term Plans



Artifacts(6):
4 x Elixir of Immortality
1 x Sensei's Divining Top
1 x Isochron Scepter


Creatures(2):
1 x Progenitus
1 x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn


Planeswalker(1):
Elspeth, Knight-Errant


Side deck(15):
4 x Redirect
4 x Brainstorm
3 x Day of Judgment
4 x Planar Cleansing



I'm really appreciate your help and suggestions.
Since you run 4 enlightened and 4 mystical tutors, try to swap the long-term plans for the Brainstorms in your sideboard (brainstorms are great if your 2 creatures end up in your hand, that happens, believe me, i played a polymorph deck too).
To be honest I'd replace 3 long-term plans and 1 Elixir of Immortality for the whole 4 Brainstorms.

After taking a closer look, I came to the conclusion that Sensei's Divining Top and Isochron Scepter didn't fit the deck and that their presence would disrupt the deck game flow, since I would need 4 Enlightened Tutors and some sort of protection (since my friends tend to use cards to exile artifacts, since I starded using some Darksteel Myrs) and that would consume deck space and disrupt my main strategy.

So, I will make the following alterations:

Instants: remove 1 Forbid, and 4 Enlightened Tutor; add 4 Brainstorm and 3 Path to Exile, to have some spot removal and to enhance library manipulation.

Sorceries: remove 4 Polymorph and add 4 mass Polymorph to hallow me to cast more finishing creatures with mass polymorph.

Artifacts: remove Sensei's Divining Top and Isochron Scepter 

As for the sideboard, I will add 4 Silence (that can be usefull against aggro decks or to protect key moves from control decks), I will maintain 4 redirect to use against burn decks, the 2 Quicken can be usefull to enable some interesting moves (like playing a 7 mana Martial coupe in the end of my opponent turn and then playing polymorph in the beginning of my turn)  the addition of Iona, Shield of Emeria and Painter's Servant was made to use in multiplayer games (replacing Progenitus), I will maitain 1 Terminus to use aggainst aggro decks and 1 Long-Term Plans just in case.

So my deck will lock like this:

Lands(20):
4 x Forbidding Watchtower
4 x Celestial Colonnade
4 x Mystic Gate
6 x Island
2 x Plains

Instants(20):
3 x Forbid
3 x Counterspell
3 x Dissipate
3 x Path to Exile
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Mystical tutor

Sorceries(13):
3 x Terminus
3 x Martial Coup
4 x Mass Polymorph
3 x Long-Term Plans

Artifacts(4):
4 x Elixir of Immortality

Creatures(2):
1 x Progenitus
1 x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Planeswalker(1):
Elspeth, Knight-Errant


Side deck(15):
4 x Redirect
4 x Silence
2 x Quicken
1 x Long-Term Plans
1 x Path to Exile
1 x Terminus
1 x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 x Painter's Servant

What do you gyus think? 

I strongly advice to switch back to polymorph, for mass polymorph you need 6 mana + mana for a counter, that's really a lot. Aside from that your new list looks solid.
So you would take out the manlands and the token producer

No, you're right. Run the CIPT lands and Martial Coup (which needs a 7+ mana investment to be effective).
The first deck the OP posted needed to be be made playable, before bothering with the overall aim and theme.


8 CIPT lands is still too many.

How are you planning on getting your Legendary creatures back to your deck if you draw them? 

If you are going to run Mass PolyMorph why not run a full playset of Bogardan HellKite or Kokusho, The Evening Star? Probably alongside a Magister Sphinx too.

Have you considered Squadron Hawk? What about Nuisance Engine?

Most Mass PolyMorph lists will run :G: alongside :U: (for the Token production). Do you really need access to Board Wipes?

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I strongly advice to switch back to polymorph, for mass polymorph you need 6 mana + mana for a counter, that's really a lot. Aside from that your new list looks solid.



Maybe 2 of each could do the trick.

I will try to start up this deck, but it will take some time to have it finished. Thanks

 


So you would take out the manlands and the token producer

No, you're right. Run the CIPT lands and Martial Coup (which needs a 7+ mana investment to be effective).
The first deck the OP posted needed to be be made playable, before bothering with the overall aim and theme.


8 CIPT lands is still too many.

How are you planning on getting your Legendary creatures back to your deck if you draw them? 

If you are going to run Mass PolyMorph why not run a full playset of Bogardan HellKite or Kokusho, The Evening Star? Probably alongside a Magister Sphinx too.

Have you considered Squadron Hawk? What about Nuisance Engine?

Most Mass PolyMorph lists will run :G: alongside :U: (for the Token production). Do you really need access to Board Wipes?





I don't need to use 7 mana to use Martial Coup ... I can just use him to get the number of tokens I need to cast Polymorph or Mass Polymorph, but in an emergency and if I have the aman, I can clean the field.

I have Brainstorm to put them back into the library and Forbiden to discard the legendary creatures.

The problem Is that the more creatures I have in the deck to get ou with Polymorph, the higher the probability I draw them and the less cards I have to control the game and survive until I can play polymorph.

Squadron Hawk  don't fit the deck, since I want to have few but powerful creatures to get out with polymorph, because if I start to put other creatures, I'm risking getting them instead of the creatures I want.

The problem with artifacts is that since I started to use my Darksteel Myrs, Gorgon Flails and Elixir of Immortality, now my friends tend to have cards aiming to exile artifacts.

Borad wipes are there to clean up weak creatures, that I can't have the luxury to counter one by one ... I can just let my opponent cast some weak creatures, focusing on dealing with strong/problematic ones and then cast a :W: terminus to clean the field and 1 elixir of life to recover life points.
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