Timer/Time Forfeit Problems and Suggestions

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Just now, I have lost my second draft match that I should have won due to the timer. This isn't idle speculation, but the second time I literally lost in the turn that I was swinging for lethal in. Lag in the draft caused about 2 minutes of total time loss. I really wished for those 2 minutes back as I entered the combat phase of what should have been a winning attack. Instead of moving on, I get the joy of the loser, new cards screen. After both instances, I PMed the opponent to see if I really had the game that far wrapped up. Both times, I got a yes. Now instead of basking in my misery, I will make a suggestion for improvement. Instead of instantly DQing an opponent whose timer reaches zero on their own turn, they should get, instead, the ability to finish out that turn with a seperate, "last turn" timer of about 2 minutes or so. I'm sure this has happened to others, but  this being the SECOND time it happened to me, I thought it appropriate to speak up.
I've been on both sides of the table when this happens. My only suggestion is to play more quickly - learn how to use the function keys to skip through turns and phases where you don't want to do anything. Learn to use autoyeild and auto-YES and auto-NO so you don't have to OK repeated effects again and again. Become familiar with all the cards of a set before drafting, so you don't have to read everything during the game. Play lots of casual games so that you become familiar with the functionality of the client. Very importantly, watch your timer like a hawk. If you have less time on your clock than your opponent, then take steps to consciously play faster. As long as you're the player with less time remaining, you are in danger - if it's the other guy, then you're safe. If you won the first game but are running low on time during the second (and probably not going to win), then seriously consider conceding the second game to give yourself enough time to play out the third game for the match.

Your suggestion about having an extra 2 minute timer for your last turn doesn't really work, because time in MTGO is not simply divided between "my turn" and "opponent's turn". Instead, the timer keeps track of priority which changes sides many many times during a "last turn".
Your improvement is arbitrary. Why not add 5 minutes? What if you have even more lag during those extra 2 minutes you want added?

You have X minutes. Not X+2. Plan accordingly. That simple.
Free Speech
Free speech is the right to speak your mind without government censorship and without fear of extralegal retaliation like harassment or violence. That’s all! Free speech doesn’t include the right to speak your mind on any forum anywhere. The government may not prevent you from speaking, but private parties, like blog owners or corporations, aren’t required to let you use their property as your platform. Free speech doesn’t include the right to be believed or to be taken seriously. People may mock, ridicule or laugh at what you say, or they may reject it outright. Free speech doesn’t include the right to be listened to. People who don’t desire to hear your opinion can hang up on you, block you on social media, change the channel, close the browser tab. Free speech doesn’t give you the right to bombard people with harassing messages or otherwise force them to pay attention to you against their will. And free speech doesn’t include the right to suffer no consequences whatsoever for your expressed opinions.
A more realistic solution is to play in the amount of time that everyone else has no problem playing in.  Unless you are playing a Legacy tournament and piloting Eggs, 25 mintues is way more than enough time to play 3 games.  Also, there is no such thing as "lag in the draft".  If your computer and/or internet connection cannot handle a program that came out a decade ago, you should address those problems.
Andoru gives excellent suggestions.

I hate to say it but the solution is to play faster. 

Plan what you are going to do on your turn during your opponents turn. 

Check what stops you have set, if you can't do anything during upkeep don't set a stop there... 

Oh, and try Swiss 321.  Even if you time out your first match, you get more matches to learn to play faster.

As far as the suggestion of adding more time, I don't like it.  We all have to play under the same limit now and it does seem to work.
Thank you, Erik.
f2,  f4, f6, f8


wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/...


Most games don't even take 5 minutes off my clock and I have all stops set on my opponent's turn as well as my own.
"They were civilized they even drank their blood from a cup"→James Silke/Frank Frazzeta "When the Cryptkeeper sticks 'em they tend to stay stuck"→Cryptkeeper "Do not blame the current developers if there is something you don't like about Magic Online. Chances are no one asked the developers for their opinion."→elf "They just look at me like I'm stupid and then I just say something like well you know WOTC does some dumb things sometimes."→wilmheath "Like just about everything I've experienced with MTGO and the Magic WotC website, I'm finding it difficult to..."→0rbit "the more general question is: at what point does an easily fixable interface issue become a defect?"→silentbobus "Imagine, only four years later and I almost have as much functionality as I used to."→Algona "WotC, you make an awesome game, why do you have to suck so bad at letting people have a fun time?"→MTGKaioshin "If you are all about playing as many games as possible as fast as possible and you KNOW you have me beat, then concede and move on"→Johnh2005 "Wow. You're a real pleasure to help. Good luck figuring it out by yourself."→tempesteye "2hg brokest of the broke"→Me, Myself & I "It's you against the shuffler."→jwark "this look like freeware that some kid down the street crafted up"→ProtossX "ask them if the world came to an economic end tomorrow, whether they think little printed pieces of paper could be traded for actual goods or services"→dangerlinto "You still have time before the buggy, non user friendly beta is shoved down your throat"→theminer575 Server status→ http://www.wizards.com/magic/magiconlineserverstatus.asp Love or hate me I was brought to you courtesy of V3!
A possible thing to do is to allow playerA to GIVE playerB more time, subtracting from his own clock to add to opponents' clock - IF, and only if playerA wants to.

Why ?

Because everything on MtgO should be considered regular REL where being nice is one of the key-things the game should be about.

The MtgO-things that cant be considered regular REL, MocS and PTQs, shouldnt exist on mtgo in the first place, but that is a different discussion.
- This is, honestly, a grotesque advantage. Noah Weil on scouting, an attorney from Seattle with 20 Pro Tour appearances.
I time out way more often that I should.
Sometimes this is due to my internet connection temporarily dropping, and having to restart MTGO (used to be quicker in the old days when we could relog in, rather than restart the program).

More often than not, though it is because I'm quite slow to make decisions. I tend to use F2,4,6,7 and 8.

I have been in a few matches where I'm just hitting F6 as quickly as possible, as I realise before my opponent that we're both short on time, and have won a couple of matches this way.

I realise that I need to learn to play faster but it's still very frustrating to lose to time when winning otherwise.

Just seems for me MTGO was more fun and less stressful with the previous time limits (30 mins each, I believe) than the current ones.

Just my 2 cents... not that I expect it to change anything!
Don't forget F3! 

I agree that 30 minutes was a nice cushion.  OTOH, shaving 10 minutes per round is a good thing.  Gripping hand, the faster we get done the faster we give WotC mo' money. 
Thank you, Erik.
Don't forget F3! 

I agree that 30 minutes was a nice cushion.  OTOH, shaving 10 minutes per round is a good thing.  Gripping hand, the faster we get done the faster we give WotC mo' money. 


You know, it probably only takes me about 10 mins. to shave total. If you're shaving 10 minutes ever round, you're either doing something wrong or you're a werewolf. Just sayin'.
I can't spare a moment for the dog faced boy I won't lend another hand to the worm girl of Hanoi Don't deplete my oxygen for the guy who's turning blue But ask me, and I'll do anything for you
F8 is my friend. I just wish I could have the setting saved instead of having to spend a couple seconds doing it at the beginning of each game. Yes, 2 seconds, I use a VM on a Mac and can't actually press F8. I need to bring up a menu to select it and it seems like have the time its ignored at first.

Given that we do play with time limits, clock management is an important online skill. Falling behind on the clock can be as bad as falling behind on life. Love it or leave it, that's just the way it is.
Don't forget F3! 

I agree that 30 minutes was a nice cushion.  OTOH, shaving 10 minutes per round is a good thing.  Gripping hand, the faster we get done the faster we give WotC mo' money. 


You know, it probably only takes me about 10 mins. to shave total. If you're shaving 10 minutes ever round, you're either doing something wrong or you're a werewolf. Just sayin'.



Psh, real men don't shave.
Free Speech
Free speech is the right to speak your mind without government censorship and without fear of extralegal retaliation like harassment or violence. That’s all! Free speech doesn’t include the right to speak your mind on any forum anywhere. The government may not prevent you from speaking, but private parties, like blog owners or corporations, aren’t required to let you use their property as your platform. Free speech doesn’t include the right to be believed or to be taken seriously. People may mock, ridicule or laugh at what you say, or they may reject it outright. Free speech doesn’t include the right to be listened to. People who don’t desire to hear your opinion can hang up on you, block you on social media, change the channel, close the browser tab. Free speech doesn’t give you the right to bombard people with harassing messages or otherwise force them to pay attention to you against their will. And free speech doesn’t include the right to suffer no consequences whatsoever for your expressed opinions.
Don't forget F3! 

I agree that 30 minutes was a nice cushion.  OTOH, shaving 10 minutes per round is a good thing.  Gripping hand, the faster we get done the faster we give WotC mo' money. 


You know, it probably only takes me about 10 mins. to shave total. If you're shaving 10 minutes ever round, you're either doing something wrong or you're a werewolf. Just sayin'.



Psh, real men don't shave.



Hey now I just shaved today, after 2 months of not... How unfair to make up that rule now.

Winter.Wolf

Don't forget F3! 

I agree that 30 minutes was a nice cushion.  OTOH, shaving 10 minutes per round is a good thing.  Gripping hand, the faster we get done the faster we give WotC mo' money. 


You know, it probably only takes me about 10 mins. to shave total. If you're shaving 10 minutes ever round, you're either doing something wrong or you're a werewolf. Just sayin'.



Psh, real men don't shave.


Ever since I started getting a lot of grey in my beard, I keep the razor handy.

I can't spare a moment for the dog faced boy I won't lend another hand to the worm girl of Hanoi Don't deplete my oxygen for the guy who's turning blue But ask me, and I'll do anything for you
What do the F keys do on MTGO?
What do the F keys do on MTGO?




Go read  this about Magic Online: Hotkeys they are short cuts for playing. There a big help.
  

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Don't forget F3! 

I agree that 30 minutes was a nice cushion.  OTOH, shaving 10 minutes per round is a good thing.  Gripping hand, the faster we get done the faster we give WotC mo' money. 


You know, it probably only takes me about 10 mins. to shave total. If you're shaving 10 minutes ever round, you're either doing something wrong or you're a werewolf. Just sayin'.



Psh, real men don't shave.


Ever since I started getting a lot of grey in my beard, I keep the razor handy.




You so vain!

A belated happy birthday btw.... Think of it this way, since our age is now a prime number we must be in our prime ;)
Free Speech
Free speech is the right to speak your mind without government censorship and without fear of extralegal retaliation like harassment or violence. That’s all! Free speech doesn’t include the right to speak your mind on any forum anywhere. The government may not prevent you from speaking, but private parties, like blog owners or corporations, aren’t required to let you use their property as your platform. Free speech doesn’t include the right to be believed or to be taken seriously. People may mock, ridicule or laugh at what you say, or they may reject it outright. Free speech doesn’t include the right to be listened to. People who don’t desire to hear your opinion can hang up on you, block you on social media, change the channel, close the browser tab. Free speech doesn’t give you the right to bombard people with harassing messages or otherwise force them to pay attention to you against their will. And free speech doesn’t include the right to suffer no consequences whatsoever for your expressed opinions.
Don't forget F3! 

I agree that 30 minutes was a nice cushion.  OTOH, shaving 10 minutes per round is a good thing.  Gripping hand, the faster we get done the faster we give WotC mo' money. 


You know, it probably only takes me about 10 mins. to shave total. If you're shaving 10 minutes ever round, you're either doing something wrong or you're a werewolf. Just sayin'.



Psh, real men don't shave.


Ever since I started getting a lot of grey in my beard, I keep the razor handy.




You so vain!

A belated happy birthday btw.... Think of it this way, since our age is now a prime number we must be in our prime ;)



Mine just passed too. :/ In fact the grey in my beard is mostly white now. (and my age is also a prime number! but I don't feel primary.)

Winter.Wolf

Don't forget F3! 

I agree that 30 minutes was a nice cushion.  OTOH, shaving 10 minutes per round is a good thing.  Gripping hand, the faster we get done the faster we give WotC mo' money. 


You know, it probably only takes me about 10 mins. to shave total. If you're shaving 10 minutes ever round, you're either doing something wrong or you're a werewolf. Just sayin'.



Psh, real men don't shave.


Ever since I started getting a lot of grey in my beard, I keep the razor handy.




You so vain!

A belated happy birthday btw.... Think of it this way, since our age is now a prime number we must be in our prime ;)


Yes, a belated happy to you as well. I meant to post something on the day, but it slipped my mind. 

I can't spare a moment for the dog faced boy I won't lend another hand to the worm girl of Hanoi Don't deplete my oxygen for the guy who's turning blue But ask me, and I'll do anything for you
f2,  f4, f6, f8


wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/...


Most games don't even take 5 minutes off my clock and I have all stops set on my opponent's turn as well as my own.



This.  I love when people time out.  In fact, I'd cut the time in half and win all my games if I could. Smile
My opinion is the opposite.  If anything, I would like them to shorten the timers to like 20 minutes.  I'm sick of playing games where 4 or 5 minutes have come off my timer and 19 minutes have come off the opponent's timer.  If they're gonna take 4 times as much time as me, then maybe I'm going to respond by drawing out the games intentionally to make them time out.  They need to play at a reasonable pace or meet with an appropriate punishment, IMO.  There's too many events where 30 players finish their matches in 10 minutes and then they wait another 50 minutes for the last match to end.
My opinion is the opposite.  If anything, I would like them to shorten the timers to like 20 minutes.  I'm sick of playing games where 4 or 5 minutes have come off my timer and 19 minutes have come off the opponent's timer.  If they're gonna take 4 times as much time as me, then maybe I'm going to respond by drawing out the games intentionally to make them time out.  They need to play at a reasonable pace or meet with an appropriate punishment, IMO.  There's too many events where 30 players finish their matches in 10 minutes and then they wait another 50 minutes for the last match to end.


You just found the solution to an old problem.


Sharks!   


Have two different events.


1)Short Timed 15 minutes each.

2)Long Timed  120 minutes each. (it has to be long enough to deter sharks)
"They were civilized they even drank their blood from a cup"→James Silke/Frank Frazzeta "When the Cryptkeeper sticks 'em they tend to stay stuck"→Cryptkeeper "Do not blame the current developers if there is something you don't like about Magic Online. Chances are no one asked the developers for their opinion."→elf "They just look at me like I'm stupid and then I just say something like well you know WOTC does some dumb things sometimes."→wilmheath "Like just about everything I've experienced with MTGO and the Magic WotC website, I'm finding it difficult to..."→0rbit "the more general question is: at what point does an easily fixable interface issue become a defect?"→silentbobus "Imagine, only four years later and I almost have as much functionality as I used to."→Algona "WotC, you make an awesome game, why do you have to suck so bad at letting people have a fun time?"→MTGKaioshin "If you are all about playing as many games as possible as fast as possible and you KNOW you have me beat, then concede and move on"→Johnh2005 "Wow. You're a real pleasure to help. Good luck figuring it out by yourself."→tempesteye "2hg brokest of the broke"→Me, Myself & I "It's you against the shuffler."→jwark "this look like freeware that some kid down the street crafted up"→ProtossX "ask them if the world came to an economic end tomorrow, whether they think little printed pieces of paper could be traded for actual goods or services"→dangerlinto "You still have time before the buggy, non user friendly beta is shoved down your throat"→theminer575 Server status→ http://www.wizards.com/magic/magiconlineserverstatus.asp Love or hate me I was brought to you courtesy of V3!
My opinion is the opposite.  If anything, I would like them to shorten the timers to like 20 minutes.  I'm sick of playing games where 4 or 5 minutes have come off my timer and 19 minutes have come off the opponent's timer.  If they're gonna take 4 times as much time as me, then maybe I'm going to respond by drawing out the games intentionally to make them time out.  They need to play at a reasonable pace or meet with an appropriate punishment, IMO.  There's too many events where 30 players finish their matches in 10 minutes and then they wait another 50 minutes for the last match to end.

This post is a sign of antisocial perspective - especially in MtgO where a players' time (and sometimes matchresult) is protected by the very nature of how the digital clock works.

Some players play more, some play less.
Those who play less have to decipher/process more information while playing if they want to be on par with opponents' play. This roots in all the fun stuff the game offers; reading cards (also during drafts/deckconstruction), seeing/discovering interactions, timing, knowing the rules, knowing the interface, trying to remember cards from game1/2 and perhaps go to collection tab to search them out and reading text, etc, etc.

Complaining about opponents pace of play attacks the very root of the game and is a loosing proposition for WotC and their customers.
- This is, honestly, a grotesque advantage. Noah Weil on scouting, an attorney from Seattle with 20 Pro Tour appearances.
My opinion is the opposite.  If anything, I would like them to shorten the timers to like 20 minutes.  I'm sick of playing games where 4 or 5 minutes have come off my timer and 19 minutes have come off the opponent's timer.  If they're gonna take 4 times as much time as me, then maybe I'm going to respond by drawing out the games intentionally to make them time out.  They need to play at a reasonable pace or meet with an appropriate punishment, IMO.  There's too many events where 30 players finish their matches in 10 minutes and then they wait another 50 minutes for the last match to end.

This post is a sign of antisocial perspective - especially in MtgO where a players' time (and sometimes matchresult) is protected by the very nature of how the digital clock works.

Some players play more, some play less.
Those who play less have to decipher/process more information while playing if they want to be on par with opponents' play. This roots in all the fun stuff the game offers; reading cards (also during drafts/deckconstruction), seeing/discovering interactions, timing, knowing the rules, knowing the interface, trying to remember cards from game1/2 and perhaps go to collection tab to search them out and reading text, etc, etc.

Complaining about opponents pace of play attacks the very root of the game and is a loosing proposition for WotC and their customers.


That's funny, because IRL, they hand out slow play penalties.  In fact, in my experiences, if a player calls a judge on another player for slow play, they have always gotten an automatic warning for slow play regardless of what their pace of play actually was.  If you were playing three times slower than me and you called a judge on me for slow play, I would get a warning.  Another bogus warning sometime later in the day and I'm getting game losses.  But I guess players should only be penalized for slow play IRL, not online.  You should tell Wizards that IRL slow play penalties are antisocial and a "loosing" proposition.

My opinion is the opposite.  If anything, I would like them to shorten the timers to like 20 minutes.  I'm sick of playing games where 4 or 5 minutes have come off my timer and 19 minutes have come off the opponent's timer.  If they're gonna take 4 times as much time as me, then maybe I'm going to respond by drawing out the games intentionally to make them time out.  They need to play at a reasonable pace or meet with an appropriate punishment, IMO.  There's too many events where 30 players finish their matches in 10 minutes and then they wait another 50 minutes for the last match to end.


You just found the solution to an old problem.


Sharks!   


Have two different events.


1)Short Timed 15 minutes each.

2)Long Timed  120 minutes each. (it has to be long enough to deter sharks)


120 minutes seems ridiculously long to me.  I feel like 15 or 20 minutes per clock and 35 minutes per clock would be a wide enough gap between the different events.  35 minutes per clock is still practically an eternity.  In fact, you can tell by my previous post that I already think 25 minutes is an eternity.  I usually only use about 4-7 minutes of my clock.  I would be happy with this if it didn't further divide the queues and thus make them fill more slowly, therefore creating new problems.  Of course, the most proper way to segregate the sharks and the minnows is to offer both the lopsided payout like 8-4 and the flatter swiss payout; which is done more for limited than constructed, and of course there's not really enough constructed participation to further fracture the number of constructed queues.

For some reason I can't quite pinpoint this whole debate reminds me a bit of the old impatience rule.

In the old days if something took a few hours to happen people got impatient and started ranting, etc and then things became much more automated and we were able to have 5minute dinner preps and faster internet service and still we were impatient but this time it was because things were taking longer than a minute. Then pcs gained a ton of speed and we were able to browse sites almost instantaneously. At this point a 3 second delay in loading became an intolerable eternity.

I'd just like to reinforce the thought that everyone's perception of the passage of time is subjective. Even if you intellectually know exactly how long something should take you have an emotional reaction to when something is even marginally slower. It gets worse when you add in factors like lag, thought, bad keyboard/mouse habits, poor connectivity (a related issue to lag), and what amount of stimulants you partook of before game.

A sleepy player is a slow player. True story. Also a hungry player is an impatient player and may also be slow to boot.

I'm good with how the clocks are now. I can see 20 minute time limits being a hassle for a number of otherwise good players. I see no convincing arguments to sway my opinion here. (Yet.)  35 minutes seems awfully long compared to 25-30.

Winter.Wolf

IF WOTC gave us a choice like 30 min game or 25 min game guess whos gonna pick the 30 min game everytime?

thats right me i dont even care if its 25 or 20 I will always pick the 30+ minute game everytime if u gave me the choice

sometimes i time out sometimes i lag out give us choices if ppl wanna play the 20 min timer que go do that as for me u will never me see me in that one and i like having my time in game clocks so plz give us choice an than will see who was right about the clock being too fast u can say its not fast enough well than lets find out which ques fire more the 30 min timers or 20 minute ones just make 2 new ones  
[ This post is a sign of antisocial perspective - especially in MtgO where a players' time (and sometimes matchresult) is protected by the very nature of how the digital clock works.

Some players play more, some play less.
Those who play less have to decipher/process more information while playing if they want to be on par with opponents' play. This roots in all the fun stuff the game offers; reading cards (also during drafts/deckconstruction), seeing/discovering interactions, timing, knowing the rules, knowing the interface, trying to remember cards from game1/2 and perhaps go to collection tab to search them out and reading text, etc, etc.

Complaining about opponents pace of play attacks the very root of the game and is a loosing proposition for WotC and their customers.



Disagree.  People who use up a majority of their clock are usually people who are playing more game then they can handle.  The next time you play against someone using a lot of clock, watch how they play.  They play one or two turns very fast, f6 through everything, and then wait 2-4 minutes before they pass priority next.  That's not someone who is reading a card or looking at a board state, that's someone who can't handle the two games they are playing.  Is this everyone who uses a lot of clock?  Of course not, but it's most of them.  Newer players will read a card, and then play it, often times their problem is that they play too FAST. 

My opinion is the opposite.  If anything, I would like them to shorten the timers to like 20 minutes.  I'm sick of playing games where 4 or 5 minutes have come off my timer and 19 minutes have come off the opponent's timer.  If they're gonna take 4 times as much time as me, then maybe I'm going to respond by drawing out the games intentionally to make them time out.  They need to play at a reasonable pace or meet with an appropriate punishment, IMO.  There's too many events where 30 players finish their matches in 10 minutes and then they wait another 50 minutes for the last match to end.


You just found the solution to an old problem.


Sharks!   


Have two different events.


1)Short Timed 15 minutes each.

2)Long Timed  120 minutes each. (it has to be long enough to deter sharks)


120 minutes seems ridiculously long to me.  I feel like 15 or 20 minutes per clock and 35 minutes per clock would be a wide enough gap between the different events.  35 minutes per clock is still practically an eternity.  In fact, you can tell by my previous post that I already think 25 minutes is an eternity.  I usually only use about 4-7 minutes of my clock.  I would be happy with this if it didn't further divide the queues and thus make them fill more slowly, therefore creating new problems.  Of course, the most proper way to segregate the sharks and the minnows is to offer both the lopsided payout like 8-4 and the flatter swiss payout; which is done more for limited than constructed, and of course there's not really enough constructed participation to further fracture the number of constructed queues.




By the way, they have already tried this for release events back on V2.5.  I forget what the exact timers were (something like 25/40), and they added a heap of extra prizes to the slow queue, and still the slow queue would stop firing within a couple hours of being posted.  Not playing magic is worse than playing magic, and for each single person playing their clock that far down, there were 30 others sitting around... 
The time limits are fine. I almost always play 2 events at once and literally never time out unless my internet dies or whatnot. Just learn how to use the F keys
If you get a certain amount of time on the clock, are you a bad player if you use all of it for your match? Or are you just using the resource well? Are you being discourteous to your opponent? Or maybe your opponent should just mind his own business as well as his own clock?

I wonder, why do you think we USE a clock in the first place?
Free Speech
Free speech is the right to speak your mind without government censorship and without fear of extralegal retaliation like harassment or violence. That’s all! Free speech doesn’t include the right to speak your mind on any forum anywhere. The government may not prevent you from speaking, but private parties, like blog owners or corporations, aren’t required to let you use their property as your platform. Free speech doesn’t include the right to be believed or to be taken seriously. People may mock, ridicule or laugh at what you say, or they may reject it outright. Free speech doesn’t include the right to be listened to. People who don’t desire to hear your opinion can hang up on you, block you on social media, change the channel, close the browser tab. Free speech doesn’t give you the right to bombard people with harassing messages or otherwise force them to pay attention to you against their will. And free speech doesn’t include the right to suffer no consequences whatsoever for your expressed opinions.
I do pretty good with the clock on V3. Sometimes I'll draft a very controlling deck and use up a big chunk of the clock to win. But, that's to be expected with long stalls and complicated board states.

V4 is another story. I had to work very hard to keep up with the clock and failed in half of the "real" events I played in (i.e. I clocked out in 2 of 4 events).
That's funny, because IRL, they hand out slow play penalties.  In fact, in my experiences, if a player calls a judge on another player for slow play, they have always gotten an automatic warning for slow play regardless of what their pace of play actually was.  If you were playing three times slower than me and you called a judge on me for slow play, I would get a warning.  Another bogus warning sometime later in the day and I'm getting game losses.  But I guess players should only be penalized for slow play IRL, not online.  You should tell Wizards that IRL slow play penalties are antisocial and a "loosing" proposition.



I don't think any one else caught this, but there's a good reason why they have slow play in IRL tournaments:  they don't have an individual clock.  Both players only have 50 minutes to complete the match, so if one player is using twice as much time, they're essentially "stealing" time from their opponent.  The warning isn't for taking a while to think, it's for forcing your opponent to make their decisions faster than you.  That's the problem they solved by having the individual timers online.

Now, I just started playing online, and have only really played seriously for about a year.  That said, I've yet to finish a match at under 15 minutes left on my clock, and I'm not even using anything other than just F6.  I've already won 3 matches on timing out (out of about 10 events).  Does it frustrate me that the opponent gets to sit there and waste my time by taking 1-2 minutes each time they get priority?  Absolutely.  Does it tick me off to finish my match in a total of 15 minutes and then wait for 50 minutes to start playing again?  Sure.  However, that doesn't mean the system needs to be changed.

That said, if the system were to be changed, I'd want to see something like the digital timers used in Chess.  In Chess, any match played with a digital timer has a certain set amoutn of time for earch player as well as a "move" timer.  The "move" timer would be something like 3-5 seconds and ticks off starting when the player's turn begins.  If the player completes their move within that short amount of time, no time comes off their actual clock.  With a "move" timer, the actual match time is shortened, so maybe both players only have 20 minutes each to finish a match instead of 25.  However, that time is made up by the fact that if they play very quickly, they lose no time.

Now, for the OP, obviously there are the various shortcuts you can use to avoid timing out.  You can also not play on a slow/spotty connection, don't try to stream video or download whatever while playing or play on a computer powerful enough to not cause lag.  Those are all very valid options.
MadAdmiral, the suggestion about a move timer isn't really suitable for MTGO, as priority changes many times during even a single turn. Would you sugggest that you get a free 3-5 seconds every time you get priority? That can be 10-20 times each turn for a moderately complex board state.
If you get a certain amount of time on the clock, are you a bad player if you use all of it for your match? Or are you just using the resource well? Are you being discourteous to your opponent? Or maybe your opponent should just mind his own business as well as his own clock?

I wonder, why do you think we USE a clock in the first place?




Yes, no, yes, no.

The clock isn't a resource to be used, it is a limit to play within.  You don't get extra bonus points for using 24 of your 25 allotted minutes.  If you think that running the clock is some sort of a mind game or tactic, then you are probably a horrible player.  Poor gamesmanship aside, it's just bad since it's not day-ruining to have an opponent take forever to play a bear and go, it's just annoying that people can't keep up with the rate of play. 

The clock isn't a resource to be used, it is a limit to play within.



Don't say silly things. Time IS a resource. The more there is the more you can think, ask any chess player. Sure, of course that resource is limited.

You seem to think you have a right to decide how your opponent uses the resources at his disposal. You seem to take it as a personal affront that your opponent dares use more time than you would need. You have no business judging others that way. The rules are clear. You get X time, they get X time. You wouldn't accept it if they got to mess with your time, so you don't get to mess with theirs.

Your position is unreasonable.
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Don't say silly things. Time IS a resource. The more there is the more you can think, ask any chess player. Sure, of course that resource is limited.

You seem to think you have a right to decide how your opponent uses the resources at his disposal. You seem to take it as a personal affront that your opponent dares use more time than you would need. You have no business judging others that way. The rules are clear. You get X time, they get X time. You wouldn't accept it if they got to mess with your time, so you don't get to mess with theirs.

Your position is unreasonable.



You are comparing apples to wolverines.  In chess, a player has to think of around 100,000 different scenarios before each move.  In Magic the optimal move is VERY VERY OBVIOUS around 98% of the time.

You don't seem to understand what I was saying, so I'll try to express it in a different way.  I don't think that I have the right to decide how my opponent uses their time.  They can do whatever they want with it.  However, it's usually bad gamesmanship and indivitive of a bad player.  I have every right to have that opinion, because I'm smart.  I never said anything about messing with anyone's time or limiting anything.  The only thing that I said is that the winner isn't the person who uses the most of their time, so using your time just for the sake of using it (or possibly for the sake of annoying your opponent) is dumb, bad, and a waste of everyone's time.  You seem to be trying to put words in my mouth to try to argue with me in order to try to advance your position, which seems to be that using a bunch of time for the purpose of annoying people is a sound strategy.  I'm sorry but it isn't. 

I'm not sure what's so unreasonable to say "use an appropriate amount of time when you play Magic", but I'm sorry that you find me unreasonable.   I don't feel that wasting time, in any aspect of life, is a good idea, but I guess that's unreasonable.  The next time you are at a red light behind a car, and the light turns green and then don't go, please don't honk your horn or get mad.  That would be unreasonable.
Worth made a comment related to this a couple of years ago:

On a personal level I can understand the frustration, but everyone gets a clock to use in their game, it's no secret how much time is on it. If someone wishes to use the entire amount (or almost all of it), shouldn't that be their right?


Both people paid to enter the event equally, and the terms were agreed on before any of it started...

The clock isn't a resource to be used, it is a limit to play within.

The clock is both a limit to play within and a resource to be used. I will use a minute or so off my clock to scout my opponent's previous games. I will use time from my clock to visit the Gatherer to lookup card rulings. I will use time from my clock to get something to eat so that my stomach isn't distracting me from concentrating.

When I do any of these activities, I trade clock time for something else: information about my opponent's deck, making sure the card works like I think it does, and not playing while distracted.

I do this knowing that I am consuming a valuable, but limited, match resource to help increase my odds of winning.
Going to quote myself from a year ago:
... The only reason there is a time limit AT ALL is the need for tournaments to complete in a timely manner. Note that the top-8 in major paper events don't impose a time restriction. Timed matches are the result of the practicalities of running a tournament, not something inherent to the game of Magic. Being an artificial construct, if deck decisions are being imposed because of the time limit, that is a flaw in the rule, not with the player (beyond considerations of using the interface correctly and making timely decisions).

As far as the online timer matching paper: (1) the paper rule is impractical for online Magic because there is no judge to monitor slow play (2) WotC has already stated that the online method is superior, but impractical for paper Magic. Two methods, each of which is impractical in the other medium, means there will be no unity in the timing method anytime soon.


Any reform of the rule needs to still satisfy keeping the tournament on schedule while imposing no more (and preferably less) influence on deck choices.

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Worth made a comment related to this a couple of years ago:

On a personal level I can understand the frustration, but everyone gets a clock to use in their game, it's no secret how much time is on it. If someone wishes to use the entire amount (or almost all of it), shouldn't that be their right?


Both people paid to enter the event equally, and the terms were agreed on before any of it started...




I feel like this point is getting muddled.  Nobody (especially not me) is saying that using all of your clock isn't your RIGHT.  Of course it is your RIGHT.  But that doesn't mean that it is right to do it.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

When I go grocery shopping, it's my right to leave my cart in the middle of the parking lot, correct?  But I put it in the cart corrall.  When I get something to drink, it is my right to grab all of the straws, correct?  But I only grab one because that is all I need.

If you need to use extra time to read cards that you are unfamiliar with, or think out a complicated board state or important turn, good!  That's what it's there for.  But it is my opinion that using extra time soely for the sake of using extra time is pointless.
You seem to think you have a right to decide how your opponent uses the resources at his disposal. You seem to take it as a personal affront that your opponent dares use more time than you would need. You have no business judging others that way. The rules are clear. You get X time, they get X time. You wouldn't accept it if they got to mess with your time, so you don't get to mess with theirs.

Your position is unreasonable.


This isn't about choosing how the opponent uses their 25 minute timer.  It's lobbying to change how many minutes are on the timer, which is a fair position.  They get to use the 25 minutes however they want.  Maybe 25 is too many.  Maybe instead they should get to use 20 minutes however they want.  It feels like I use an average of something like 7 minutes off of my timer in a given match.  I time out maybe 1 out of every 1000 or 2000 matches, and haven't timed out at all in a few years.  My experiences tell me that 25 minutes is too long.

Also, paper magic has 50 minute rounds, all-inclusive.  Why would online magic have 25 minutes per player when it cuts down the time taken in the following ways...
a)  Sideboarding time cuts into the 50 minutes in paper magic, but it doesn't count against the round timers online.  So really, in paper magic, you only have about 45 minutes (22.5 per player) of game time when you account for the time sideboarding eats-up.
b)  Shuffling is instantaneous in online magic.  In paper magic, the initial shuffling procedures alone are allowed to and often do take-up 6-9 minutes of the rounds.  That's not to mention that in some formats, or in some decks, you have so many shuffling effects that shuffling actually burns more like 8-12 minutes of the rounds.  So now let's take that 45 minutes from before and cut it down to 38 minutes (19 per player).
c)  Some people deliberately stall in paper magic, either to earn a draw instead of a 1-2 loss, a 1-0 win instead of a 1-1 draw, or a 0-0 draw instead of a 0-1 loss.  Regardless of whether penalties exist and partially mitigate the problem, if stalling were altogether impossible, an average round would be shortened by a few minutes, and matches where stalling was actually present would be shortened by perhaps 10 whole minutes.  I would take the 38 minute number from before and cut it down to 35 minutes (17.5 per player).
d)  In paper magic, there is virtually no accountability for your own pace of place.  There's the penalties, but again, enforcement is inconsistent, spotty, not a proper discouragement, and 98% of the time judges aren't called for unconscientious pace of place.  If players were fully accountable for their pace of play, they would be at least a bit more conscientious about their pace of play, and wouldn't need as much time.  Take 35, bring it down to let's say 33 or 31 (16 per player).

All right, there we go.  25 minutes per player in paper magic should be equated to about 16 per player online.