Streaming events against the rules?

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I was browsing through the Release Queues chat while waiting for my round to start and noticed this sequence about streaming live events:

12:58 PM Some.User: Anyone interested in watching a live m13 draft strem? Pm me.
12:59 PM ORC_Xxxxxxx: Streaming events live is against Code of Conduct and the Terms of Service.

I thought it was common for some big-name players to stream their events. Does the ORC know what they're talking about?
I was browsing through the Release Queues chat while waiting for my round to start and noticed this sequence about streaming live events:

12:58 PM Some.User: Anyone interested in watching a live m13 draft strem? Pm me.
12:59 PM ORC_Xxxxxxx: Streaming events live is against Code of Conduct and the Terms of Service.

I thought it was common for some big-name players to stream their events. Does the ORC know what they're talking about?





I wonder if the ORC is right and this is another case of "official" stance vs overlooking violations that are popular. (IE: you can't talk about it?)

Winter.Wolf

Something being commonly done doesn't mean that it's allowed.

Why wouldn't you read the linked documents and decide for yourself if it's allowed or not?
Why wouldn't you read the linked documents and decide for yourself if it's allowed or not?

I have read the linked documents. They don't mention streaming (or broadcasting) anyplace, nor anything that I can interpret as related to streaming. Did you spot something that I didn't?

Reading the CoC or ToS and deciding for yourself if something is in violation of the rules can be a risky. It doesn't matter how you interpret these things, its WotC that decides and carries out the punishment where they believe it is warranted.

Asking in these forums is usually a good way to get a response from WotC that I'd trust more than something coming from an ORC.
Theoretically, you can stream as long as you don't get assistance from the people watching the feed. In practice, I don't know that anyone is all that careful about it and WotC employees share and promote streaming links along with everyone else. I"m going to kick this upstairs for an [O]fficial answer, but right now I'd say the ORC is just annoyed about the advertising rather than the stream.

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...I"m going to kick this upstairs for an [O]fficial answer...

Thanks, just what I was hoping for!

I don't think they care about streaming random dailies or queues, but someone did get in trouble for streaming a PTQ once. I think they crack down on streaming the bigger tournaments.
It'd be odd if streaming is against the rules, since people have always been able to watch paper Magic players play. The video coverage we have of paper events now is just like MTGO streams, with the exception that streamers tend to interact heavily with stream viewers.

The only thing that should be frowned upon is when streamers ask for (or don't, but still accept) assistance from viewers. I've watched just about every major stream, and every single one of them regularly does this. Since that's pure and unambiguous cheating, I'm kind of surprised WOTC hasn't dropped the hammer yet. They'd have to drop it on Kibler, Sam Black, and other big names, though, which is probably why they haven't done anything.
It'd be odd if streaming is against the rules, since people have always been able to watch paper Magic players play. The video coverage we have of paper events now is just like MTGO streams, with the exception that streamers tend to interact heavily with stream viewers.

The only thing that should be frowned upon is when streamers ask for (or don't, but still accept) assistance from viewers. I've watched just about every major stream, and every single one of them regularly does this. Since that's pure and unambiguous cheating, I'm kind of surprised WOTC hasn't dropped the hammer yet. They'd have to drop it on Kibler, Sam Black, and other big names, though, which is probably why they haven't done anything.





They're getting free advertising for their program.  It's not going to get shut down any time soon.  Plus, is it even against the rules of MTGO to receive outside assistance?  It's obviously completely unenforceable, so it probably shouldn't even be in there.  So long as the person whose name is on the account is actually doing the physical playing, it shouldn't be a violation.
It'd be odd if streaming is against the rules, since people have always been able to watch paper Magic players play. The video coverage we have of paper events now is just like MTGO streams, with the exception that streamers tend to interact heavily with stream viewers.

The only thing that should be frowned upon is when streamers ask for (or don't, but still accept) assistance from viewers. I've watched just about every major stream, and every single one of them regularly does this. Since that's pure and unambiguous cheating, I'm kind of surprised WOTC hasn't dropped the hammer yet. They'd have to drop it on Kibler, Sam Black, and other big names, though, which is probably why they haven't done anything.



They're getting free advertising for their program.  It's not going to get shut down any time soon.  Plus, is it even against the rules of MTGO to receive outside assistance?  It's obviously completely unenforceable, so it probably shouldn't even be in there.  So long as the person whose name is on the account is actually doing the physical playing, it shouldn't be a violation.



So you're fine playing a 1v1025 game in the finals of a PTQ? Neat! I'm not! I'm also not a fan of doing that in any sanctioned event. From what I've read, MTGO follows the DCI floor rules, so outside assistance is not allowed on MTGO. It'd be pretty ridiculous if it was since they have PTQs online.

Growing pot in your closet is just as "unenforcable" as getting outside assistance during a game. Most people who do it don't get caught. Plenty of morons get arrested after posting videos on Youtube of their closet gardens, though. Stream cheating is the same thing. WOTC just isn't cracking down for some reason. Sure, they can't stop all cheating ever, but the fact that you can't stop all cheaters should not prevent you from stopping every cheater that you find out about.
It seems to me that if you were to watch all the major streams that you'd get to know the usernames of the streamers, and that could be used to your advantage should you be paired against them.  If you know your opponent is streaming and where, you could watch the stream while playing and thus know the content of their hand at all times.  Seems like there's significant potential disadvantage to streaming there...
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It seems to me that if you were to watch all the major streams that you'd get to know the usernames of the streamers, and that could be used to your advantage should you be paired against them.  If you know your opponent is streaming and where, you could watch the stream while playing and thus know the content of their hand at all times.  Seems like there's significant potential disadvantage to streaming there...



Yeah, that would be fantastic.

"Whoops, looks like my opponent is going to  have Delver on the play... I'll just mull to 6 here... and... yup Mental Misstep.  OK let's go..."
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It seems to me that if you were to watch all the major streams that you'd get to know the usernames of the streamers, and that could be used to your advantage should you be paired against them.  If you know your opponent is streaming and where, you could watch the stream while playing and thus know the content of their hand at all times.  Seems like there's significant potential disadvantage to streaming there...



Yeah, that would be fantastic.

"Whoops, looks like my opponent is going to  have Delver on the play... I'll just mull to 6 here... and... yup Mental Misstep.  OK let's go..."

Some of the streamers I watch say it's only agaisnt the rules to ghost (watch someone's stream you are playing) which again is pretty hard to prove that someone is doing.  People that stream seem to be pretty good at knowing when they are being ghosted and put up a blocker that covers their hand if they have any suspicions (based on plays their opponent is making, etc.).  I've even seen people get called out for ghosting and admit that they were watching. 
There's a popular streamer in a PTQ right now who is currently asking his viewers for sideboarding advice. I love streaming, but that is a problem. You'd definitely face heavy repercussions for something like that in paper Magic. It's ridiculous that it goes unpunished on MTGO.

I honestly can't even imagine someone doing this in a physical tourney. The very concept is silly. Nobody thinks twice about doing it online, though.
There's a popular streamer in a PTQ right now who is currently asking his viewers for sideboarding advice. I love streaming, but that is a problem. You'd definitely face heavy repercussions for something like that in paper Magic. It's ridiculous that it goes unpunished on MTGO.

I honestly can't even imagine someone doing this in a physical tourney. The very concept is silly. Nobody thinks twice about doing it online, though.



Can you please send customer service the name & link as well as an ORC?

Outside assistance is still illegal. 
DCI Certified Level 2 Judge
Some of the streamers I watch say it's only agaisnt the rules to ghost (watch someone's stream you are playing) which again is pretty hard to prove that someone is doing.


... Why would that be against the rules?  Why would that even be in the rules?  Streaming didn't even exist when they made the rules, and I doubt the rules have caught-up yet.
I agree here with Lackeos. If a player played with his hand on the table so anyone can see his cards it's the opponents fault for looking at them?!
I agree here with Lackeos. If a player played with his hand on the table so anyone can see his cards it's the opponents fault for looking at them?!

That is a very good parallel

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I agree here with Lackeos. If a player played with his hand on the table so anyone can see his cards it's the opponents fault for looking at them?!

That is a very good parallel



Agreed.  Face to face, I might feel compelled to inform an opponent that playing that way was a bad idea, but if they then keep it up, that's on them.  Online, it seems to me that if you're streaming, you've gone to significant effort to allow people to watch, so you have to allow for the possibility that your opponent may be one of the watchers.  Especially in the scenario where the streamer receives outside assistance, I really don't see how they can be all ragey about their opponent seeing their hand - it's not cheating to see something that somebody shows you, but it surely is to get advice...
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Bubba, thanks for posting the new user's agreement text that clears this up (i.e. streaming is allowed).
why can't u ask a friend on sideboard advice during a PTQ?

its the Players final decision what goes in an out of the deck ?

who cares if he asked someone else for advice  no cheating was done the person brought the sideboard and can do whatever he wants iwth it 
why can't u ask a friend on sideboard advice during a PTQ?

its the Players final decision what goes in an out of the deck ?

who cares if he asked someone else for advice  no cheating was done the person brought the sideboard and can do whatever he wants iwth it 



Well, you can ask people between rounds whatever you want to. You can't ask people mid-match what to sideboard, though. It should be obvious which one of these situations was being discussed.