The True Problem Behind 5MW

It's not the game, it's not the vacian system, and it's not the wizard. 

It's the DM. The DM job is to design an encounter, dungeon, adventure, etc. If the encounter, dungeon, adventure is design where a wizard can nuke, leave, and come back to finish it and the DM butthurt about it, guess who fault it is?

If the DM doesn't like how 5MW works, then there a few solution to it. Here a few scenarios.

1. DM designs an ancient dungeon fill with undead. The group nuked and left half way through the dungeon. Since the undead are only order to guard, there isn't much they can do against this.

Solution? Another group of adventures heard rumors of a group trying to loot the ancient dungeon. They check it out, killed what was left, looted the place, and left before the other group got back. Would players get mad? Yes(trollface). Would they do it if were the other group? In a heart beat. So it's only fair. :P

2. DM made a story.  Princess get kidnapped, blah blah blah, and now guarded inside a bandit stronghold. PCs come in, killed most of them, found their loot, left the BBEG and his best bodyguards alive. Decide to come back later to finish them off. 

Solution? They are gone and the princess body appears a few days later. King is not very happy and rumors spreading around that your group had enough power to save the princess on that day.

3. The PC raid an alive dungeon filled with goblins, got halfway through, and return to town.

Solution? They better not return to that dungeon. They kicked a hornet nest and now it's active. The goblins know they coming back and called in support. A big ambush is waiting for them.  


The DM need to add a time frame on their encounters. The players wait on the adventure, the adventure doesn't wait for the players. 

Here the solution to the 5MW. Rate how hard or easy the adventure and reward them for it. 

Easy: No time frame, can complete it anytime. Story may suffer from this.
Normal: Can complete it with the resources they have within reasonable amount of time. No ill effects to the story.
Hard: May not have enough resources to complete it, so must think outside the box. Spend all their resources and then some in good amount of time. Story will have a better outcome or extra bonus. 

Well that's my 2 cents, had to do it after seeing so much 5MW threads popped up recently. 

 
The DM can solve any problem, therefore every edition is perfect. 

Well that's my 2 cents, had to do it after seeing so much 5MW threads popped up recently. 

 



I'm not sure if you read those threads. Let me quote myself from there:


I still think it all realy boils down to Nova and not 5mw.
Nova, that always precedes Rest in 5mwd scenario, has following problems:
wizard's balance is not build on the assumption they will nova an encounter. It is build under assumption that wizard will use their spells more conservatively. It assumes that a wizard will face X encounters, and her daily allotment of spells is not enough to Nova each one of them. If she Novas an encounter - then in that particular encounter she is imbalnced both in comparison to the challenge level and her companions.

Solution A) One frequently offered solution to this problem is to force/encourage a party to fight X number of encounters per day. This solution, depedning on campaign nature, is easier or harder to do (for example it is harder to do in campaigns were "beating the clock" is not a primary concern) and in some is just impossible (if DM does a combat-light campaign, forcing/encouraging a party to fight on does not work, because there are no more fights this day anyway)

Solution B) manually construct most of the encounters in such a way that wizard is screwed anyway even if she Novas. Umm... can work a few times but in the long run I find this solution cumbersome and limiting. And kinda... underhanded.

Solution C) disable Novas, either by 

C1) making wizard spells less powerful (if easier to cast) effectively changing them into encounter powers, at-wills or equivalent.
C2) Integrating Anti-Nova safety switch (or "pacing mechanism") that stops wizards from Novaing, or gives them penalties for doing so.

I fail to see any other way than A, B or C, and neither A or B would work for me in the long run (I tend towards combat-light campaigns). C2 is my preferred method because it lets wizards still be vancian* and keep their general power level, instead of rewriting the whole spell system ground up.

(*I actually do like vancian casting)



Your post above? Solution type A, all of it. Doesn't solve the problem for me.
The DM can solve any problem, therefore every edition is perfect. 



Damn, straight. 

Don't like something, change it. Then how much you willing to go far from the core?  
The DM can solve any problem, therefore every edition is perfect. 



So you deny that it's the DMs JOB to provide a game that's fun, challenging, even taylored to accomodate the PCs involved?
Despite 35+ years worth of D&D books telling you that this is exactly what the DM is suppossed to do?

Now granted, some DMs are better at doing this than others.

And no, every edition is certainly not perfect.  If it was, "D&D night" wouldn't be spent playing Pathfinder.... 
The DM can solve any problem, therefore every edition is perfect. 

Sort of true? I guess.

I think that the best thing that D&D Next could do is make the DMG a very, very educational and effective text. It's pretty cool that the DMGs for the past two editions have included discussions of the psychology of players -- and that'll be important to include again -- and it should also include discussions of what kinds of issues can come up in play, like the "5-minute workday" or player jealousy. And pacing, and knowing when to challenge the PCs with additional sigh-worthy tasks and when to cut to the chase instead of offering more work.

Most importantly, sadly, the guidelines for DMs need to look less like an intensive, daunting process. DMGs often look like encyclopedias with tightly-packed paragraphs. I remember finding that daunting, and I know that anyone I've brought to the game has found that daunting.
I don't use emoticons, and I'm also pretty pleasant. So if I say something that's rude or insulting, it's probably a joke.
The game of dungeons and dragons starts out this way. low level characters are rather squishy, or at least used to be. Because of this they have to stop frequently to heal and replenish supplies and spells. It's normal. It also isn't really a problem.

As the spell casters and the rest of the group slowly come to rely on the wizard's high damage or insta kill spells they stop trying to optimize other methods of dealing with problems. They start to make short explosive forrays into dungeons and what have you, because they don't have any other tactics that work as well it continues to get worse. 

If the DM plays each encounter as a seperate fight that is unrelated to the rest of the encounters they plan on running, this becomes the defacto method of dealing with issues. 3e is especially vulnerable to this because the developers took out nearly all of the bad associated with spell casters while giving them more toys to use, making them more powerful, thus causing a great deal of resentment in those of us who prefer that the power be spread amongst everyone in the party. (This only one minor quibble I have with 3e.)

Dungeon masters who use dynamic encounters and the living world style of game play don't have 5 minute  adventure days as a rule since the very act of leaving a dungeon before they have completed the mission gives the opposition time to make changes. Sometimes merely adding patrols, other times they will remove treasure, recruit allies or dig in better. Either way the party has new problems to contend with. 

I see the 5mwd as the reality of D&D and I have nothing against this kind of play. It gives me the chance to make decisions about troop concentrations or tribal movements or a thousand other plot devices that evolve as the adventure plays out. I even write specific contingencies for when the party does decide to take an unscheduled or ill advised rest.

Other times it really doesn't matter how the group decides to allocate resources. Just remember that always facing the enemy at full strength isn't really a learning experience. If the group takes the easy way out they should expect fewer rewards for their uninspired and cowardly appropach to the adventure.

If the problem is amongst the players, they need to decide how to fix the problem. I would personally just kill off the offending character after having addressed the issue and failed to come to a satisfactory solution. If someone is sitting with you and refuses to play nice why play with them at all?

As DM I don't really care how the group plays, but disruptions because of selfishness and poor playmanship are reasons to address the issue. I have only ejected two players in thirty years of D&D. 
The DM can solve any problem, therefore every edition is perfect. 


Well, we can all clap ourselves on the back, then.  It's gonna be another perfect edition when Next comes out.  That's a pretty stellar record.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
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But what if you are using pre-made adventures that don't all have these special additional features to prevent the 5-minute-workday? What if adding such additional constraints EVERY SINGLE ADVENTURE feels forced after some time?

What we are discussing here is not DM performance, but different rules systems. If rules system A has an inherent problem with some players WANTING to rest after 5 minutes, and rules system B doesn't have that problem, I would say that rules system B is better. Notwithstanding the possibility that the DM can always find a solution to prevent the players from resting. 
But what if you are using pre-made adventures that don't all have these special additional features to prevent the 5-minute-workday? What if adding such additional constraints EVERY SINGLE ADVENTURE feels forced after some time?

What we are discussing here is not DM performance, but different rules systems. If rules system A has an inherent problem with some players WANTING to rest after 5 minutes, and rules system B doesn't have that problem, I would say that rules system B is better. Notwithstanding the possibility that the DM can always find a solution to prevent the players from resting. 




I imagine it would take a little extra preparation to personalize the module you plan on playing. Premade adventures are merely outlines that you make your own. I don't play them because they never do what I want, or they really blow, or they make assumptions about the game that differ from my own. I like to write my own adventures so that the players are a little more involved with the story or are directly affected by them. Published stuff can't do that without a lot of little tweaks.

As for rules system B, well I suggest you go play it because there is nothing you can do to D&D to change things without making fundimental changes to the system. If you change too much no one wants to play the abomination you stamped the D&D logo all over.

Sadly since the system has this issue when everything is done in isolation, it's going to bite people occasionally. For many of us system A is by far preferred over the better designed game B. It's all a matter of perspective. Of course if some of the stuff they removed from AD&D when they rewrote the rules were to make a return a lot of these issues might go away. Not all, but some. Empowering the caster classes and disempowering DM's ability to curtail some of the worse stuff is easily to blame for a lot of it.  
It's not the game, it's not the vacian system, and it's not the wizard. 

It's Dailies.
Daily Powers are the root cause.  Every patchfix attempt to solve the Five-Minute Workday and Nova problems is just willful ignorance of this simple and obvious truth.
Maybe one day people will realize that Mechanics encourage Playstyles. The way the rules make certain tactics and strategies easier than others. The only way reasons to not use the encouraged playstyle is to either make story reasons to not use it (which can come of as contrived or nonsensical in the hands of a poor storyteller), a gentlemen's agreement to not use the playstyle (which is metagame), and time limits (which are stupid if done too often).

The OP's fiirst example is contrived unless the setting is filled to the gills with adventuring parties. Otherwise the players would be skeptical of those adventurers happening to be there and call the DM on it hard if he does it again.

The second is a time limit. Perfectly acceptable if not used too often.

The third is acceptable as well. The reenforcement have to be sensible as well. The enemy would have to use appropriate tactics. Deviations would have to be rare if not clear or future explanation is given. And countertactics can be countered especially when expected.

It really comes down to... How much work do you want to give the DM and what skill level do you expect the DM to have?

 

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Go read 13th age rules for "resting." It works.
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You can't please everyone, but you can please me. I DO NOT WANT A FREAKING 4E REPEAT. I DO NOT WANT A MODULE THAT MIMICS MY FAVORITE EDITION. I WANT MODULES THAT MIMIC A PLAYSTYLE AND CAN BE INTERCHANGED TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE FEEL, BUT NOT THE THEME, OF D&D. A perfect example would be an espionage module, or desert survival. A BAD EXAMPLE IS HEALING SURGES. WE HAVE 4E FOR THOSE! A good example is a way to combine a mundane and self healing module, a high-survival-rate module, and a separate pool of healing resource module.
Go read 13th age rules for "resting." It works.



Dont seem to have access to those.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
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Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 


It really comes down to... How much work do you want to give the DM and what skill level do you expect the DM to have?

 


Thanks, Orzel, for this. The answers to these questions apply well beyond the context of this thread. It is a key component of the success of the next edition and to growing our hobby.

Go read 13th age rules for "resting." It works.



Dont seem to have access to those.



They are pretty much the same as 4E. With few additions:

The 'adventure day' is explicitly stated to be 'roughtly 4 encounters'. After those the DM can allow the party a full recovery (surges and dailies), without need for 24h to pass or a night's sleep.

The other tool to regulate pacing is the 'campaing loss', which the DM can inflict if the players rest too often. That means things somehow will go wrong for the party in the grand scheme of things.

The other difference is having 'rechargeable' spells/powers, which are 'dailies' that can be recovered with a successful roll after each battle. So the more you carry on fighting the higher the chances those will pop up again.
Go read 13th age rules for "resting." It works.



Dont seem to have access to those.



They are pretty much the same as 4E. With few additions:

The 'adventure day' is explicitly stated to be 'roughtly 4 encounters'. After those the DM can allow the party a full recovery (surges and dailies), without need for 24h to pass or a night's sleep.


So a completely dissosiative and gamist solution that makes no narrative sense.  Why can they only use certain powers every 4 encounters?  Why do those powers randomly return after 4 encounters?  Is there an explanation for why the powers come back or is it a nod and a smile and a, "figure out your own explaination for how this works in the narrative", and poof back come the powers for no narrative reason.


The other tool to regulate pacing is the 'campaing loss', which the DM can inflict if the players rest too often. That means things somehow will go wrong for the party in the grand scheme of things.



You mean the exact thing that every single person saying the 5MWD is easily solved says to do.  Excellent why not just give some guidelines on what those 'campaign loss' type things can be.  News Flash that is what the solution has always been, and it is what many of us have been saying for months now.  Like this is exactly what I have always said is currently the best way to remove the 5MWD.  Rest to much and the story advances without you and you are left at a disadvantage because you weren't where you needed to be.  Somehow it works here for 13A but when we tell you that it is the way you could always handle this it is off.  Nice bias showing everyone.


The other difference is having 'rechargeable' spells/powers, which are 'dailies' that can be recovered with a successful roll after each battle. So the more you carry on fighting the higher the chances those will pop up again.


Makes the above dissosiated mechanic less terrible in the narrative scheme because apparently powers randomly recharge.  How is that explained though?  Why can you sometimes recharge them and sometimes you can't?  Is it just a completely dissosiated mechanic that applies to everyone with yet again a nod and a smile and a, "figure out your own explaination for how this works in the narrative", or is it defined for everyone how they go about recharging themselves randomly.

Like as game features they seem kind of okay, but as Role Playing Game Features they really seem like they are over correcting with a bunch of dissociated, gamist solutions to a "problem" that isn't a problem because there has always been a way to deal with it within all RPGs. 13th age apparently even goes so far as to try and make it seem like they invented 'campaing loss' as some kind of mechanic.  News Flash they didn't invent that, it is a main facet of all RPGs.

The problem that those who wish to eliminate the 5mwd from the rules is that for a very significant portion of the gamer base to which 5e is being marketed the 5mwd is not a problem.  Seems pretty straighforward that those who have chosen not to play 4e in preference for older editions or Pathfinder do not have that much an issue with it.


Despite years of reading threads about how the 5mwd is an issue, I have yet to see a convincing argument why it is a problem for my personal home game.  Has it occurred in my home games?  Yes.  Has it occurred with enough frequency to cause any problems in my home games?  Nope.


Thusly, unless and until some problem with the 5mwd crops up in my home games, I have little incentive to care about it beyond theoretical wanking.  That a significant portion of the gamer base has chosen older editions or Pathfinder suggests that I am hardly alone.


Hence, those who want the rules to fundamentally eliminate the 5mwd have the burden of convincing WotC to make fundamental rules changes to address an issue that huge numbers of gamers don't even see.


The problem that those who wish to eliminate the 5mwd from the rules is that for a very significant portion of the gamer base to which 5e is being marketed the 5mwd is not a problem.  Seems pretty straighforward that those who have chosen not to play 4e in preference for older editions or Pathfinder do not have that much an issue with it.


Despite years of reading threads about how the 5mwd is an issue, I have yet to see a convincing argument why it is a problem for my personal home game.  Has it occurred in my home games?  Yes.  Has it occurred with enough frequency to cause any problems in my home games?  Nope.


Thusly, unless and until some problem with the 5mwd crops up in my home games, I have little incentive to care about it beyond theoretical wanking.  That a significant portion of the gamer base has chosen older editions or Pathfinder suggests that I am hardly alone.


Hence, those who want the rules to fundamentally eliminate the 5mwd have the burden of convincing WotC to make fundamental rules changes to address an issue that huge numbers of gamers don't even see.




+1


Like as game features they seem kind of okay, but as Role Playing Game Features they really seem like they are over correcting with a bunch of dissociated, gamist solutions to a "problem" that isn't a problem because there has always been a way to deal with it within all RPGs. 13th age apparently even goes so far as to try and make it seem like they invented 'campaing loss' as some kind of mechanic.  News Flash they didn't invent that, it is a main facet of all RPGs.



I much prefer to be told balance is around x encounters rather than an abstract 'adventure day'.
I don't like the 'campaign loss' solution, as that's heavy DM fiat which I don't think should be needed.
Anyway 13th Age doesn't have the mission to appeal to the whole D&D community, so those who don't like it can just play something else.
On the other hand, DDN is supposed to appeal to the whole D&D community, and since a significant part of that community has a a problem with the 5MWD, some solution to that will have to be provided, as options at least. 

@Qmark The dailies are just fine. 1 highest lv daily and a few lower level ones should finish the encounter. If the player want to use up all his dailies and overkill, then that his choice. 

@Alraune I don't get it, please explains. ;)

@Orzel  Bingo! How much work you want the DM to do and what skills he expected to have. This subject here is thread worthy.

5MW is a legit strategy. It works and sometimes annoys the DM because it's kinda cheap and dirty. This is where 5MW is legit.

Scenario: An orc army coming to invade a town in 2 days.
Plot Related: Small. The orc army is part of another faction. This attack was going to happen anyway.
The Party Actions: They went in. Nuke as of them as posssible. Left before they got organize.
How It End: The army retreat and the party's ranger tracked them down and the party finish them off. 
The debate here is perhaps about - can rules solve all problems?  If something is a problem, is the fix always to make a rule?

The throw the dailies out to get rid of the five minute workday problem is a prime example of the disasterous potential outcomes that can result from this attitude.  It is this very same attitude that gave us the newly written bland spell rules in 3e and 4e.  Webs don't burn.  Magic missile unable to cut a rope.  The desire to stomp out possible difficulties leads to a very rigid game with little flexibility.

I realize this whole concept is a continuum and maybe we are hoving around 5 and maybe 6 or 4 is better.  I just hope they make it flexible enough so that those of us who want an open ended game can play along with those who want a more structured game.
I got tired of people blaming the game and daillies for the 5MW, but in reality it's the DM, since he is the one who makes the encounters. The way he designs them somehow has room for that 5MW. 

I already posted a few ideas on how to get around the 5MW. Timelines, risk and reward, etc.
If a good portion of users have a problem, that means a problem exists, and designers should try and address it without imposing unwanted changes for those who like things the way they are.

 The throw the dailies out to get rid of the five minute workday problem is a prime example of the disasterous potential outcomes that can result from this attitude.   


Disasterous is kind of like the silly language being employed elsewhere in this thread. (using a different pacing mechanism than you are used to is not a disaster).

I like the kind of climactic effects you get from "dailies" but not the only this archetype gets to have that feel. To me that is as bad or worse than 5MWDs.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

We got...

The Players: The ones that like using the 5MW to have an easy encounter.
The DM: Watches his hard work get destroy easily by the 5MW.
The Game: Which encourages the 5MW. What's nothing better then fighting full strength?

Nerf the dailies and change them to encounters then we got 5 minute break problem. Change the game and you got new problems.

No matter what you do, you gonna have problems. The question is the best way to deal with them. 


No matter what you do, you gonna have problems. The question is the best way to deal with them. 



No need to change anything. Just provide options to handle the daily recovery in alternative ways.
There is no 'best way' or 'true solution' to deal with this, it's whatever works for each group.



Yes we are talking about a game. And at the moment about an effect that is far from exclusive to horrible crimes. Victim Blaming can happen in most aspects of life, from the simplest of forms to the most horrible of forms.

Which is, again, why I bolded the part in my reply. If you can only see this effect happening with crimes, you are limited in your point of view, mate. Nothing, absolutely nothing precludes this effect from being used in different situations. Again, this effect is not limited to crimes.



So what are you really getting at?  Are you saying that is is improper to discuss the effects of different playstyles on whether a campaign will experience a 5mwd problem?  Are you saying it is improper to state that the DM has a huge effect on a campaign's playstyle?
Leichenreiter, surely -you- have the definition of the 'Five Minute Workday Problem', right?

I have trouble getting a succinct definition of it.

"Lightning...it flashes bright, then fades away.  It can't protect, it can only destroy."

 h?

Nerf the dailies and change them to encounters then we got 5 minute break problem.   



The you have paused to catch your breath after you fought for your lives problem.. oh yeh that so totally irrational it will destroy the pacing of the story NOT...  (gonna have to explain how that one is a problem).
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Uniformity can eliminate problems but for many it's an unfun way to do it.  If we had one class only, and we reflavored everything that class did when we described our actions, then we wouldn't have any balance issues.  We would also have a pretty lousy game.  (I used an extreme example just to illustrate that not all solutions are good and sometimes it throws the baby out with the bathwater).   Now for me that was 4e but I know it wasn't for others.

Variance by it's nature is easier to exploit.  But variance is also fun.  A DM though can handle exploitations by players.  Sometimes that is the best solution because you want the game to be fun and in many cases a lot of exploits aren't even considered by the players.
 h?

Nerf the dailies and change them to encounters then we got 5 minute break problem.   



The you have paused to catch your breath after you fought for your lives problem.. oh yeh that so totally irrational it will destroy the pacing of the story NOT...  (gonna have to explain how that one is a problem).



What does magic, an external source to wizards (and clerics, actually...and warlocks.  Not so much to sorcerors.) need with me 'catching my breath'?  That would be akin to my -sword- needing me to 'catch my breath' (not in reference to martial 'powers', but in reference to 'an external tool').

"Your sword is dull until you catch your breath."
"What the...what is this I don't even..."

"Lightning...it flashes bright, then fades away.  It can't protect, it can only destroy."

The solution to me is rather simple.

Provide optional mecanics, advice, and guidelines to adjust the default best strategy outside of contrived excuse plots away from 5MW.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

 h?

Nerf the dailies and change them to encounters then we got 5 minute break problem.   



The you have paused to catch your breath after you fought for your lives problem.. oh yeh that so totally irrational it will destroy the pacing of the story NOT...  (gonna have to explain how that one is a problem).



What does magic, an external source to wizards (and clerics, actually...and warlocks.  Not so much to sorcerors.) need with me 'catching my breath'?  That would be akin to my -sword- needing me to 'catch my breath' (not in reference to martial 'powers', but in reference to 'an external tool').

"Your sword is dull until you catch your breath."
"What the...what is this I don't even..."




Actually your sword example is off.  As late as the high middle ages, a soldier would often have to take a few minutes out to resharpen his blade after a battle....so in a real sense swords even in real battles were 'dull' until the soldier caught his breath (or took the few minutes to pull out his whetstone and resharpen his blade and do field repairs on his armor).

-Polaris
We got...

The Players: The ones that like using the 5MW to have an easy encounter.
The DM: Watches his hard work get destroy easily by the 5MW.
The Game: Which encourages the 5MW. What's nothing better then fighting full strength?

Nerf the dailies and change them to encounters then we got 5 minute break problem. Change the game and you got new problems.

No matter what you do, you gonna have problems. The question is the best way to deal with them. 



I prefer encounter powers to daily powers merely as a matter of preference.  It has nothing to do with the 5mwd.  I am crossing my fingers in hope there will be a module which eliminates daily abilities. 

It is very possible for a D&D fan to prefer encounter powers without the 5mwd being a part of the discussion.
 
What does magic, an external source to wizards (and clerics, actually...and warlocks.  Not so much to sorcerors.) need with me 'catching my breath'?   



Catching you breath 
recovering your focus
letting your energies settle
and the environements resistances relax. 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

 
What does magic, an external source to wizards (and clerics, actually...and warlocks.  Not so much to sorcerors.) need with me 'catching my breath'?   



Catching you breath 
recovering your focus
letting your energies settle
and the environements resistances relax. 



If I can't breathe properly...then no other magic works either...right?
If I can't focus properly...then no other magic works either...right?
If my energies are out of alignment, I can't channel any magic at all...right?
If the environment is resistant, then I can't channel the same source at all...right?

@Polaris: I figured -someone- would go there.  And you're right, in a realistic sense.  However, even -dulled-, the blade wouldn't be unwieldable.

"Lightning...it flashes bright, then fades away.  It can't protect, it can only destroy."

Hell in true vancian form just rememorise the spell you just used.. cause there isnt a daily limit.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

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Hell in true vancian form just rememorise the spell you just used.. cause there isnt a daily limit.


If you go with this one, then why are there 'daily' spells?  What makes one spell memorizable but not another?

Edit: Meh...yannow Garth, we're not gunna come to any agreement on this whatsoever and it's coming perilously close to EW (not so much because of actual edition, but because of assumed realities of some editions) so I'm just going to let it go here.

"Lightning...it flashes bright, then fades away.  It can't protect, it can only destroy."

 
What does magic, an external source to wizards (and clerics, actually...and warlocks.  Not so much to sorcerors.) need with me 'catching my breath'?   



Catching you breath 
recovering your focus
letting your energies settle
and the environements resistances relax. 



If I can't breathe properly...then no other magic works either...right?


Are you not a native speaker ?.. catching ones breath means recovering short term fatigue... perfectly reasonable to use it in a generric sense ... whether that is psychic or mystical or even exerting ones life force in a magical univers.



 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

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