Spiked Chain Fighter?

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I've been looking around recently and read something interesting about a "spiked chain fighter" and I was wondering how is it built and how does it work exactly?
It's a fighter who uses a spiked chain.

Spiked chains are nice in that they have reach, and (depending on your reading) have multiple weapon groups.

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my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

How it is built depends a great deal on what you want to do with it. 

Do you want to do damage? 
--Take spike chain training and light blade feats
--Look at tempest fighter

Do you want to be a single target controller?

--Pick up flail expertise

Do you want to be a "you go where I want you to and like it" controller?

--Pick up Arena Training - Spike Chain and Mordenkrad/Craghammer
--Pick Flail Expertise, Bludgeon Expertise, Dragging Flail, Rending Chains Student, Reaping Strike, Lashing Flail
--Pick up Polearm Master

Do you want to be a defender with good defenses?

--Pick another weapon
Spiked chain is probably the best weapon choice for a berserker who wants to pretend to be a defender.

Especially if your DM lets you MC cleric for Battle Cleric's Lore, you can have absurd AC, since the Arid Desert, Poised Defender, Unarmored Agility, and BCL defense bonuses all stack for a total of +9 AC and +4 reflex beyond what cloth armor would normally offer.

Things don't really come together until paragon, but with flail expertise, lashing flail and dragging flail, your aura punishment and normal OAs will both allow you to negate enemy actions, by proning and sliding them.

If you go STR/DEX however, you have a pretty awful pool of surges, which is no fun. And barbarian power selection is silly at best for defending purposes.
How it is built depends a great deal on what you want to do with it. 
Do you want to be a "you go where I want you to and like it" controller?
--Pick up Arena Training - Spike Chain and Mordenkrad/Craghammer
--Pick Flail Expertise, Bludgeon Expertise, Dragging Flail, Rending Chains Student, Reaping Strike, Lashing Flail
--Pick up Polearm Master



I think I'd like something like this. I remember someone mentioning on how fun it is to throw monsters off ledges and group them up for mages and such. Would you mind going into a bit more detail about its?

Also, is it actually viable in all situations? I mean I would feel pretty useless if we were up against a dragon or something and all of my utility and damage went out the window.
It's a fighter who uses a spiked chain. Spiked chains are nice in that they have reach, and (depending on your reading) have multiple weapon groups.


Please don't keep qualifying that statement.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
everyone is entitled to their views / opinions Mand, you can't censor the forums just because someone has a different one than yours.  Furthermore, Mellored is not the only one with a different view and I believe until WOTC releases a FAQ entry for this particular issue, it will never be truly settled by debate or discussion.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

They are entitled to their opinions, yes, but being entitled to them doesn't mean that they then get to demand equal representation just because they have them.  An opinion based on logical fallacy, misunderstanding of the 4e rules structure, and reading text that doesn't exist does not justify the qualifier that mellored provided.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
You are entitled to the opinion that you aren't being unhelpful and disruptive right now, Mand, but that doesn't mean that I'm not going to report you if you derail the topic.
I made my comment, and was going to leave it at that.  I planned to again, yet people keep responding to me telling me to stop talking.  What about being entitled to opinions, again?

This is my last statement on the subject in this thread:  Clarifying rules errors is not off-topic in CharOp.

I am now done, I have said all that needs to be said.  If you want to continue to berate me, please make a thread over in RQ&A and I'll be happy to oblige.  But my first post in this thread was not off-topic, and it was not disruption.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
"An opinion based on logical fallacy, misunderstanding of the 4e rules structure, and reading text that doesn't exist does not justify the qualifier"

but that's according to your view, you can't impose your view on the view of others and say their view is wrong without any WOTC provided proof to back you up.  Until that happens all you have is your opinion, nothing else, and that does not give you the right to try to censor someone elses views.

"They are entitled to their opinions, yes, but being entitled to them doesn't mean that they then get to demand equal representation just because they have them."

Wow Mand, just wow. O.o  This isn't a dictatorship Mand, take a breath.  And please don't post this kind straight TRASH again.  It diminishes your contributions to the forum.  This ain't your way or the highway, you don't own this forum.  You are a participant, one among thousands, who can and do have different views than yours.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

I think the better call is to let it go for now, Noctaem. He was right that if we want to continue to berate him, we should do it elsewhere.

Edit, the first thing you want to do if you want to build a spiked chain fighter in 4e is to read the Player's Handbook. The second thing you might want to do is peruse this guide, written to help players build Fighters well. There's a lot of advice that only applies to hammer fighters or sword and shield fighters, so you'll have to read closely to pick out which options the guide recommends for a Fighter using a flail.

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... 
So you do own this forum, Noctaem?

I tried, I really tried, but how patient must I be?

btw WEC, it helps PM conversations if you can actually accept PMs...
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Anyway back to the thread.  Sorry for that btw.

The spiked chain on it's own is a nice item being a weapon with reach meaning you can attack 2 squares away instead of just 1 square.  It's a flail which gives it good support for control, and fighters are already pretty good at control.

If you take the muticlass feat Spiked chain training, you can instead treat the weapon as a double weapon with light blades at each end.  This gives you all of the light blade feat support which is amazing.  You do lose your multiclass feat though so if you had plans for that, it might make the decision more difficult.

If you do take it as a double weapon you can then use it for all the powers that require holding a weapon in each hand so that opens up a lot of power options.

It's a very decent weapon either way, but I would have to say that as a double weapon with light blade support, it's the better choice.  The feat support really sells it. 
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)


How it is built depends a great deal on what you want to do with it. 

Do you want to be a "you go where I want you to and like it" controller?

--Pick up Arena Training - Spike Chain and Mordenkrad/Craghammer
--Pick Flail Expertise, Bludgeon Expertise, Dragging Flail, Rending Chains Student, Reaping Strike, Lashing Flail
--Pick up Polearm Master



====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 11
Dwarf, Fighter (Weaponmaster), Polearm Master
Fighter Option: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents Option: Arena Training
Arena Training Option: Arena Training (Spiked chain)
Arena Training Option: Arena Training (Mordenkrad)
Theme: Elemental Initiate
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 21, CON 15, DEX 19, INT 11, WIS 13, CHA 9
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 12, DEX 16, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 8
 
 
AC: 21 Fort: 24 Ref: 21 Will: 19
HP: 90 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 22
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +15, Endurance +14, History +10, Intimidate +11
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +9, Arcana +5, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +8, Heal +6, Insight +6, Nature +6, Perception +6, Religion +5, Stealth +9, Streetwise +4, Thievery +9
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Elemental Initiate Attack: Disciplined Counter
Dwarf Racial Power: Dwarven Resilience
Fighter Attack: Combat Challenge
Fighter Attack 1: Reaping Strike(Starts as Footwork Lure, Retrain to Reaping Strike at 6)
Fighter Attack 1: Cleave(Starts as Knockdown Assault, Retrain to Cleave at 11) 
Fighter Attack 1: Hack and Hew
Fighter Attack 1: Tempest Dance
Fighter Utility 2: Pass Forward
Fighter Attack 3: Rain of Blows(Triple hitters are good)
Fighter Attack 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter Utility 6: Ignore Weakness
Fighter Attack 7: Come and Get It
Fighter Attack 9: Fighter's Recovery
Fighter Utility 10: Fighter's Grit
Polearm Master Attack 11: Leveraging Strike
 
FEATS
Level 1: Flail Expertise
Level 2: Dragging Flail
Level 4: Agile Superiority(Switches Combat superiority to use Dex, you are Dex based)
Level 6: Rending Chains Student
Level 8: Bludgeon Expertise(Adds 1 to slide distance)
Level 10: Improved Defenses
Level 11: Lashing Flail
 
ITEMS
Staggering Spiked chain +3 x1
Rushing Cleats x1
====== End ======

This setup makes reaping strike your standard at will starting at L6.  This means that if you hit with reaping strike, you will do 1[w]+mods in addition to prone, slide 7(1 from rending chains student, 1 from bludgeon expertise, 1 from rushing cleats, and 3 from staggering, 1 from polearm master) and if you miss you will still do 6. 

Lashing flail makes it so your MBAs slide so they now get prone, slide 7 as well(this includes OAs and attacks granted by combat challenge).

Since you are a dex focused build, agile superiority switches your OA bonus from wis to dex. 

Elemental Initiate gives you an encounter attack, an immediate reaction, that if someone attacks you and misses, you get a 2[w] attack that if it hits, slides which becomes prone, slide 6.

Feats you want:
  Stonefoot Reprisal:  OA against adjacent enemy that tries to use forced movement on you, OA negates that movement if it hits
  Repel Charge: OA against charging opponent, no distance restrictions so as long as they are within reach you can attack them

This build, with the two items, means that by 11, you can attack, prone, and then slide an opponent beyond the average charge range.  Unless they have reach, they can't hit you on a charge, but even if they do have reach, that is what repel charge would be for.

Edit:  This build is for control.  The damage on it is barely(subjective) adequate but you will have lots of positioning options.  Future powers should focus on attacks that slide/push.  For example, there is a L13 encounter that is close burst 2 and slides 2 on a hit, pushes 1 on a miss but with this build it is slide 8(no prone, it is not a melee attack) or push 4(1 from power, 1 from rushing cleats, 1 from polearm master, 1 from bludgeon expertise).  You begin to see where I am going with this build.  And yes, it can be very dangerous near cliffs and ledges.
It's worth noting that fighters are the only defender who can opt to sacrifice their MC this way without severely hindering themselves, and that any other defender is severely hindering themselves if they do not MC fighter.

Also worth noting: the feat package which allows reach flails to so easily negate attacks, control positioning, and stop movement on OAs even without combat superiority (hello, combat agility!) requires either just taking the flail feats or Mand's reading of the MC feat that allows you to treat it as both a light blade and a flail and take/apply both support packages at once.

If your DM does not support that reading, the light blade / double weapon support is very pointedly better for damage, while the flail support is fantastic for control and action denial.

In my opinion, the action denial is both more effective and more fun, but mileage may vary. And hey, if your DM doesn't make you choose, you can have both.
the light blade / double weapon support is very pointedly better for damage


I see what you did there.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
the light blade / double weapon support is very pointedly better for damage


I see what you did there.



;)

For the record, I agree with your reading on the MC feat, but I always find it more practical to inform people of controversial/questionable rules rather than assume a tofu DM, even on CharOp. Outside of LFR, I've played with 11 DMs, and exactly zero of them pay any attention whatsoever to RAW, and instead make their own rulings any time something unclear (or unbalanced) comes up.

@OP if you're looking to play a striker more than a defender, scouts can make excellent use or MC spiked chain, and there's very few strikers as potent as a str/dex hybrid ranger/fighter/stormwarden (or shock trooper) with MC spiked chain.
Ranger|Fighter with a spiked chain is actually bad... only one side is off-hand. Pure ranger with a spiked chain would be better.

Ranger|Fighter/Monk/Shock Trooper is fantastic though. +3/1d12 dual wielding. Fun times.
Heh, mine's Rogue|Fighter/Monk/Shock, but yeah, fun times.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Ranger|Fighter with a spiked chain is actually bad... only one side is off-hand. Pure ranger with a spiked chain would be better.

Ranger|Fighter/Monk/Shock Trooper is fantastic though. +3/1d12 dual wielding. Fun times.



Just curious: why monk MC? I'm not too familiar with monks.
Monk Unarmed Strike, via the Master of the Fist MC feat.  +3/d8 unarmed weapon, offhand property.  Bump it up to d10 with Improved MUS.  Shock Trooper nudges it up to d12.  +3/d12 weapon.  My guy's a brawler, and through another feat I can use MUS for rogue powers that require a light blade.  Having d12s on rogue powers is somewhat amusing.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Monk Unarmed Strike, via the Master of the Fist MC feat.  +3/d8 unarmed weapon, offhand property.  Bump it up to d10 with Improved MUS.  Shock Trooper nudges it up to d12.  +3/d12 weapon.  My guy's a brawler, and through another feat I can use MUS for rogue powers that require a light blade.  Having d12s on rogue powers is somewhat amusing.



Wow that's pretty awesome. I'll keep that in mind if I play a Brawler.
The other at-will (grappling strike is a given) is Riposte Strike, and the basic tactics are latch on, knock prone, and pound them to death with Riposte and minor action attacks.  If they attack back, they get hurt, and if I pick my targets right they won't have any other options.  It plays rather well as a true hybrid between the high-control, low-damage brawler, and the rogue.  I still have high control, but significantly more damage in exchange for a smidge of toughness (though not that much lost).

It's a ridiculously feat-intensive build, though.  I'm playing it at level 13 right now, and it just barely came together with the level 12 feat.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
that kind of build really comes together at 16 or so right Mand ?
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

There's a few extra feats I'd like to have, but low paragon it's functional.

Note that Inescapable Hold isn't necessary in this build - your dex is high enough so that the gap between fort and ref isn't very large at all.  Not large enough to spend a precious feat on, anyway.  Currently, that gap is 2, but when I take Brawler Guard at 14 it shrinks to 1.  So, +1 to Grab defense vs acrobatics, compared to +1 to AC and Ref.  Yeah, easy call.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
is this build posted anywhere Mand ?

same question for Alcestis :p 
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

Maybe something like this for the variant of Alcestis.

Ranger|Fighter/Monk
Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Brian, level 12
Human, Fighter/Ranger, Shock Trooper
Hybrid Ranger Option: Hybrid Ranger Reflex
Hybrid Talent Option: Fighter Combat Talent
Fighter Combat Talent Option: Tempest Technique (Hybrid)
Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort
Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)
Theme: Guardian
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 21, CON 13, DEX 19, INT 9, WIS 15, CHA 11
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 12, DEX 16, INT 8, WIS 14, CHA 10
 
 
AC: 27 Fort: 29 Ref: 28 Will: 24
HP: 89 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 22
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +14, Athletics +15, Endurance +11, Intimidate +16, Perception +16, Stealth +14
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +5, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Dungeoneering +8, Heal +8, History +5, Insight +10, Nature +8, Religion +5, Streetwise +6, Thievery +9
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Guardian Attack: Guardian's Counter
Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort
Fighter Attack: Combat Challenge
Hunter's Quarry  Power: Hunter's Quarry
Fighter Attack 1: Footwork Lure
Ranger Attack 1: Twin Strike
Ranger Attack 1: Off-Hand Strike
Fighter Attack 1: Driving Attack
Ranger Utility 2: Invigorating Stride
Ranger Attack 3: Disruptive Strike
Ranger Attack 5: Frenzied Skirmish
Fighter Utility 6: Ignore Weakness
Fighter Attack 7: Come and Get It
Ranger Attack 9: Attacks on the Run
Fighter Utility 10: Clearheaded
Shock Trooper Attack 11: Shocking Twister
Shock Trooper Utility 12: Assault Footwork
 
FEATS
Two-Weapon Defense
Level 1: Improved Monk Unarmed Strike
Level 1: Master of the Fist
Level 2: Ki Focus Expertise
Level 4: Hybrid Talent
Level 6: Weapon Focus (Unarmed)
Level 8: Twilight Training
Level 10: Improved Defenses
Level 11: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 12: Two-Weapon Opening
 
ITEMS
Monk unarmed strike x1
Rain of Hammers Ki Focus +3 x1
Hero's Earthhide Armor +3 x1
Amulet of Protection +3 x1
Short sword x1
Strikebacks x1
Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier) x1
Cincture of the Dragon Spirit x1
Headband of Perception (heroic tier) x1
====== End ======

Twin Strike
Show
+20 vs. AC 1d12+10 damage


I didn't find a Ki Focus with permanent access to cold damage, and Twilight Adaption was just chosen for flavor. But I'm sure there are some ways to push the damage further.
It was just an attempt on my side to look at a Shadowrun Ki-Adept from another angle, inspired by Alcestis remark

IMAGE(http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/whatcolor_iswhite.jpg)

is this build posted anywhere Mand ?



Ground and Pound

My only disappointment is that Bugbears can't get oversized Unarmed Strikes.