Transforming card ruling....

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Ok, so I'm pretty sure that cards such as Bloodline Keeper and Chalice of Life don't untap as soon as they transform. However, my friends think they do and I lost a game by 1 life because of their Chalice ruling (Tapped, transformed, untapped and used the ability right away). They even said the owner of both card shops in town told them that transform cards untap like that. Can someone please direct me to an official ruling before I go insane?
since nothing tells you to untap, they don't untap
that includes Chalice of Life

sadly there is no rule spelling that out, because the rules don't work like that ;)

here are the complete rules for Transform
701.25. Transform

701.25a Only permanents represented by double-faced cards can transform. (See rule 711, “Double-Faced Cards.”) If a spell or ability instructs a player to transform any permanent that isn’t represented by a double-faced card, nothing happens.


701.25b To transform a permanent, turn it over so that its other face is up.


701.25c Although transforming a permanent uses the same physical action as turning a permanent face up or face down, they are different game actions. Abilities that trigger when a permanent is turned face down won’t trigger when that permanent transforms, and so on.


note the absence of the word "untap"
proud member of the 2011 community team
I might go insane I showed them all the threads and they said "Dude you can't believe everything online. It's a whole new card so it untaps." Yeah but you believe someone in real life because they can't be wrong? GAH! I know what you're saying about the rules not working like that, but they should make a ruling for idiots like my friends....

EDIT: thanks anyway, maybe I can show them this to guide them to the light....
The only time something untaps is when a rule or effect instructs you to do so.  Such as the Untap Step.  Since the rules for transforming say nothing about untapping the permanent, it remains in whatever status it was before it transformed.
DCI Level 1 Judge Please autocard: [c]Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon[/c] = Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon [c=Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon]Skittles[/c] = Skittles Cards do what they say they do. No more. No less.
it is NOT a new object, for example it doesn't become summoning sick like it would if it was a new object

since he claims that they untap, ask him to show you where it says so in the rules
I quoted the complete Transform rules above, if he believes it is written somewhere else he can look for himself in the Comprehensive Rules: www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Article.aspx?x...
proud member of the 2011 community team
It's a whole new card so it untaps."


Here's where part of the problem is.  When something transforms, it's NOT a "new card".  It is still the same permanent, just with different characteristics.
DCI Level 1 Judge Please autocard: [c]Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon[/c] = Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon [c=Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon]Skittles[/c] = Skittles Cards do what they say they do. No more. No less.
All that happens when something transforms is that its characteristics (name, p/t, types, subtypes, text, colors, etc) change. Transforming doesn't cause a permanent to untap, unflip, remorph, fly across the room, or anything else other than gaining the stats of the other side of the card.

If transforming untapped creatures automatically, Civilized Scholar wouldn't have the text it has.

Rules Advisor

Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.

Thank you everyone.... if they don't believe this thread I can just bludgeon them with a rule book until they get it.
print out all 200 pages of it, that should pack a punch ;)
proud member of the 2011 community team
"...  It's a whole new card so it untaps."


That part at least is easy to refute.
711.7. When a double-faced permanent transforms, it doesn't become a new object. Any effects that applied to that permanent will continue to apply to it after it transforms.
Example: An effect gives Village Ironsmith (the front face of a double-faced card) +2/+2 until end of turn and then Village Ironsmith transforms into Ironfang. Ironfang will continue to get +2/+2 until end of turn.

110.6c A permanent retains its status until a spell, ability, or turn-based action changes it, even if that status is not relevant to it.



No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.

Transforming isn't a status.

Or I should say Day/Night isn't a status. 

Rules Advisor

Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.

Transforming isn't a status.

Or I should say Day/Night isn't a status. 


Did anyone say otherwise?
110.6. A permanent's status is its physical state. There are four status categories, each of which has two possible values: tapped/untapped, flipped/unflipped, face up/face down, and phased in/phased out. Each permanent always has one of these values for each of these categories.


My rules quote pointed out that status (including tapped/untapped) only changes due to a spell, ability, or turn-based action.  "Transforming" doesn't qualify any more than "doing the hokey-pokey".

No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.

Argus_Panoptes has found your answer, unless your friend wants to take the word of two shop owners over the comprehensive rules:

711.7. When a double-faced permanent transforms, it doesn't become a new object. Any effects that applied to that permanent will continue to apply to it after it transforms.
Example: An effect gives Village Ironsmith (the front face of a double-faced card) +2/+2 until end of turn and then Village Ironsmith transforms into Ironfang. Ironfang will continue to get +2/+2 until end of turn.

110.6c A permanent retains its status until a spell, ability, or turn-based action changes it, even if that status is not relevant to it.

110.6. A permanent's status is its physical state. There are four status categories, each of which has two possible values: tapped/untapped, flipped/unflipped, face up/face down, and phased in/phased out. Each permanent always has one of these values for each of these categories.

Transform doesn't change the status of the card, if it was phased out, it stays phased out; same is true for phased in or tapped/untapped, etc...

If your friends don't agree maybe they'll be able to give you the adequate rules in the comprehensive rules backing up their claim. :D

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

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