Ideas for an odd party.

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At monroe community college, a fledgling D & D club will be starting this fall. Here are our current players.

Thaver Angelbane, Level 1 Tiefling Chaos Sorcerer
LE, Lolth
(Was CE, but I changed that. He was fooling around I later learned.)

Zinna Thornsong, Level 1 Shifter (Longtooth) Wild Warden
CG, Melora
(Played by my Girlfriend, the only female character and player so far. The least experienced.)

Blit Abesha, Level 1 Gnome Rogue (?)
Unknown Alignment, Unknown if a worshipper of anything
(On probation until he gives me his background)

Willamin Wyvernjack, Level 8 Half-elf Two Blade Ranger
CG, Sort of follows Bahamut
(Racial Trait swapped for a unique power. Played by me.)

More detailed things will arrive when my laptop returns from being repaired.

Feel free to ask about the campaign or anything that interests you about the players, or me, the DM!




I posted this is Char Op, but that caused a large scale issue. So, on a suggestion, I post it here.
And the #1 item for the morally bankrupt... Why settle for a statue of a nude elf in your bedroom when you have a real, live nude elf, petrified and unpetrified on your command. She wears a tiara, when you utter a command word, she will be petrified, unpetrified, or disciplined. Any attempts by her to remove the tiara will be futile. Use her only as a statue, or to entertain any debauched desires you may have. 125,000 GP.
why is William so much more powerful than the PC's?  
You are Red/Blue!
You are Red/Blue!
Good luck. You're primed for a lot of the classic problems groups run into, including aligment arguments, varying levels of experience, and having one's significant other at the table. It also looks like the DM is running a character, which can cause issues. I don't want to jinx you, but it's better to be aware of things like this, and to know that they're solveable problems, rather than to be caught unaware.

If I have to ask the GM for it, then I don't want it.

It also looks like the DM is running a character, which can cause issues.


To put things in perspective, the reason this caused a lot of backlash on the CharOP forums is because TC is the DM
It also looks like the DM is running a character, which can cause issues.


To put things in perspective, the reason this caused a lot of backlash on the CharOP forums is because TC is the DM

Yeah, and I didn't even notice that the character the DM is running is so much more powerful. Hoo boy.

If I have to ask the GM for it, then I don't want it.

why is William so much more powerful than the PC's?  



Because he's been adventuring longer and he was raised by a dragon.

Good luck. You're primed for a lot of the classic problems groups run into, including aligment arguments, varying levels of experience, and having one's significant other at the table. It also looks like the DM is running a character, which can cause issues. I don't want to jinx you, but it's better to be aware of things like this, and to know that they're solveable problems, rather than to be caught unaware.



Yep. I am aware, and know how to handle them. Thank you for your concern.
And the #1 item for the morally bankrupt... Why settle for a statue of a nude elf in your bedroom when you have a real, live nude elf, petrified and unpetrified on your command. She wears a tiara, when you utter a command word, she will be petrified, unpetrified, or disciplined. Any attempts by her to remove the tiara will be futile. Use her only as a statue, or to entertain any debauched desires you may have. 125,000 GP.
why is William so much more powerful than the PC's?  

Because he's been adventuring longer and he was raised by a dragon.

The question is "Why, for the purposes of a fun game for all, his he so much more powerful than the other PCs?" Followed quickly by "How are the others going to contribute meaningfully with this guy hanging around?"

If I have to ask the GM for it, then I don't want it.

why is William so much more powerful than the PC's?  

Because he's been adventuring longer and he was raised by a dragon.

The question is "Why, for the purposes of a fun game for all, his he so much more powerful than the other PCs?" Followed quickly by "How are the others going to contribute meaningfully with this guy hanging around?"




1. He's there to lead them/ Help out if things get too bad and he is asked for. Once a module of course.

2. He is going to be a backseat player.

And the #1 item for the morally bankrupt... Why settle for a statue of a nude elf in your bedroom when you have a real, live nude elf, petrified and unpetrified on your command. She wears a tiara, when you utter a command word, she will be petrified, unpetrified, or disciplined. Any attempts by her to remove the tiara will be futile. Use her only as a statue, or to entertain any debauched desires you may have. 125,000 GP.
why is William so much more powerful than the PC's?  

Because he's been adventuring longer and he was raised by a dragon.

The question is "Why, for the purposes of a fun game for all, his he so much more powerful than the other PCs?" Followed quickly by "How are the others going to contribute meaningfully with this guy hanging around?"

1. He's there to lead them/ Help out if things get too bad and he is asked for. Once a module of course.

2. He is going to be a backseat player.

Ah, ok, sort of a Gandalf type. That can work, but be very careful. You're not dealing with a collection of characters you control, as you would if you were an author, but with other people, who might bristle at having their bacon saved by the DM.

If I have to ask the GM for it, then I don't want it.

Escpecially since, as you mentioned in the other topic, him trying to help has a chance of hilariously backfiring when he turns onto a dragon that tries to kill the party.
Here's a few things. and I'm trying to give helpful solutions here.

1. When in doubt, don't DMPC. There are exceptions where it dips into the beneficial range, but you have enough players. If you want to play someone, you are simultaneously playing every character in the world that is not the PC's. You literally get to play whatever you want, whenever you want. The helpful sage isn't a bad thing to have on hand, but it gets a bit unwieldy to have around all the time. The times I've seen it work okay is if the party is massively needing a certain thing (never a striker, but sometimes you need the healer, for example) and the group is too small or not able to reasonably find a way to work around this. In these cases making a side character who may be even able to help in plot points but in other parts just stays back and makes sure things don't die is fine. A great one in the healer instance is to play a lazy lord. You let everyone else become even cooler.  Your group is reasonably set up for this, and would help more than yet another striker to save their bacon.  A character eight levels higher doesn't actually need the group, so what's the point?

2. DMPC will actually make your job infinitely harder. You already have almost an entire world to balance, then you have to take into effect the unbalancing nature of a pc, and will probably want him to be valid to the story.  It's not worth it.  I go out of my way not to have NPC's be dragged along by the party if I think it'll distract from the story, and here you have created quite a difficult one to overcome. 

3.  Be careful to be fair.  Many, many dm's favor a romantic interest or their own creation in a story.  I've been at tables where a DMPC was so integral to the story, me and another player got up to play D&D Heroes for three hours.  This was not noticed.  I've also been at tables where the girldfriend (oddly never had this happen in reverse genders... which is curious) is the only PC that can do anything.  I remember a certain ranger that had a quiver of arrows of slaying whatever she needed at a given time, and the only fun the other two pc's had was due to exceptional character creation, not the DM's doing.  My wife is in all my games, but we've had static for the inverse.  She once got upset that unlike other DM's, I was treating her as just another PC.  That's not a fun arguement to have on an hour car trip.  Just sayin'.

4.  If the PC's flame out due to mistakes, it's not necessarily a bad thing.  Some players will never accept this, but most who are fairly mature will pause, chuckle at why they flamed out (as long as it was a mistake on their end and not, you're level two, fight this fight you can't possibly win!) and grow from it.  If you're using fourth, balance isn't that hard.  If you're running modules, just reduce a monster or two (Depending on if you continue to DMPC or not).  Keep at level until they get comfortable, with maybe the difficult fights being level +2.  I've literally just done that for a thirty level campaign of seven players, which had very little experience with this system before I got stuck running.  This was over three years ago.  No one has died, though the barbarian really, really tries to get himself killed.

5.  The party composition is fine, but the alignments do send up flares.  Is it possible to have this sort of mix, yes.  Is it more possible that it will cause the PC's to get into a self TPK within three sessions... oh yes.  With new players, have them stick to good or at least neutral.  I know it seems restrictive, and silly, but let them get the teamwork together first.  Remember that good doesn't have to be Dudley Do Right (am I marking how old I am by saying that?) and evil doesn't equate necessarily to cool and edgy. 

6.  I've used former PC's as NPC's.  It can work fairly well, but some things mentioned in the thread concern me.  It's one thing if they're the sage (or god) but it's another thing if it's an overpowered (to the party) DMPC who can turn on them as well.  This doesn't make your PC more interesting, it makes everyone else's less.  Because at some point the sword of Damacles is just going to slaughter them.  This isn't enhancing the story.  Maybe if you made it an at level challenge, a cursed being, who the party is trying to help but could go wrong... but if it does go wrong they can still fight their way out of it... that's not a half bad story right there. 

7.  Wrong mindset on him being more powerful.  You've already just stated he's the star (he's more experienced therefore...) because he's gotten more history with you.  And I do want to emphasize the with you portion.  To the PC's, and their players, he's not more experienced... they have their own history with their characters.  I again implore you, don't do it.  It's a trap.

8.  Why does being raised by dragons make you more powerful?  That wasn't pertinent to the DM question, just something I found odd.  Style wise it would effect what powers he took, maybe appearances, but I've never seen where that grants you power.  Maybe being trained by one (A la Natsu Dragneel from Fairy Tail) but that's a different issue all together.  Not sure how a creature who doesn't normally wield weapons can train you to wield two of them better... for example.  Maybe that's just me.

9.  It does make me nervous you think you can reign their alignments in.  I know experienced DM's who would never be this cocky about this spread... and with players who are new... yikes.  Remember that just because their friend's outside of the game, doesn't mean that when they switch into character mode there won't be huge issues.  I'm not sure if you're actually going to be taking any of this to heart, but for your players you may wish to nudge them into playing alignments that are closer together and less likely to breed conflict.  If said dragon beasty is the reason they have to get along, or else he'll shift and eat them... then what's the point of the alignments anyway?

10.  Backseat player... I've known them, they've never been DMPC's.  They're usually the person there for their social time or because they get dragged along, and don't really care about the game.  It's frustrating, but it happens.  It's not a good status for a DM controlled character of any type.

I'll go ahead and apologize now for spelling or grammatical errors.  Exhausted from work.  Hope this helps.
^TC should read the above. He seems to know what he's talking about.
^TC should read the above. He seems to know what he's talking about.



I did, and it is good. Also, Tech priest should leave now, you're not helping.
And the #1 item for the morally bankrupt... Why settle for a statue of a nude elf in your bedroom when you have a real, live nude elf, petrified and unpetrified on your command. She wears a tiara, when you utter a command word, she will be petrified, unpetrified, or disciplined. Any attempts by her to remove the tiara will be futile. Use her only as a statue, or to entertain any debauched desires you may have. 125,000 GP.
I agree with Dann on all fronts. Please reconsider your stance on DMPC. Make the game fun for all by crafting an interesting story for the PC's and you roleplay that crap out of every NPC in the module. There are other ways to help the PC's, heck even if it breaks the flow of the story if they look a tad confused just give them some clues or advice. This should work until they get the gist of playing and the player's may just surprise you and not really even need help. 
If it turns out that they are constantly overwhelmed then adjust the mod to suit the PC's.

 While i was harsher to you in the CharOP thread, because your refusal to take and incorperate advice became irksome, i'll give you the benefit of the doubt here. Please accept the guidance and advice of the DM's who frequent this forum, listen, learn and grow. It will only help you your group and this D&D club for your school.

THECH-PRIEST, Just let it go. Go post your funny pictures in the thread that you and others won't let die. All your managing to do is prove your as big a douche as the DM your harassing. Thats just sad. 

"Something, something, something, Darkside. Utini."



 While i was harsher to you in the CharOP thread, because your refusal to take and incorperate advice became irksome, i'll give you the benefit of the doubt here. Please accept the guidance and advice of the DM's who frequent this forum, listen, learn and grow. It will only help you your group and this D&D club for your school.




I never refused the help. I just haven't implemented it yet.
And the #1 item for the morally bankrupt... Why settle for a statue of a nude elf in your bedroom when you have a real, live nude elf, petrified and unpetrified on your command. She wears a tiara, when you utter a command word, she will be petrified, unpetrified, or disciplined. Any attempts by her to remove the tiara will be futile. Use her only as a statue, or to entertain any debauched desires you may have. 125,000 GP.

Well i hope you are listening and implementing and i really hope you have dropped the notion of the DMPC. Let the PC's shine and have some fun and you'll certainly have some fun in the mean time. Down the road once you find and establish relationships with more experienced players and DM's, like EnglishLanguage, perhaps you could get to play one of your character ideas.

"Something, something, something, Darkside. Utini."

Well actually, the club he was mentioning this for is actually at the college I'm going back to next month, so I'll probably check it out.

And I can't DM to save my life tbh. I've been working on a campaign idea for almost a month now and it's still not remotely playable yet <_<.
Well actually, the club he was mentioning this for is actually at the college I'm going back to next month, so I'll probably check it out.

And I can't DM to save my life tbh. I've been working on a campaign idea for almost a month now and it's still not remotely playable yet <_<.

OK. You'll be checking it out but may be more enthused as you started out in the charOP forum if you so some "growth" on the part of the DM.

But you have tried DMing and if you were to play with this group of noobs while working on your campaign and getting to know styles and personalities when its ready to run you could give it a go. Since i'm not from the area i don't want to put you on the spot.

"Something, something, something, Darkside. Utini."

I've tried DMing before. It's worked, though it was incredibly railroady. My current one I'm working on I'm planning to be more open-ended(hopefully), so it's taking a bit longer.

ANd yeah, I'll be checking the club out at least now, definetly more interested now that the OP seems to be attempting to fix things now.
I've tried DMing before. It's worked, though it was incredibly railroady. My current one I'm working on I'm planning to be more open-ended(hopefully), so it's taking a bit longer.

ANd yeah, I'll be checking the club out at least now, definetly more interested now that the OP seems to be attempting to fix things now.


Cool and maybe if the DM does decide to take a step back and let the players shine and everyone has  a good time he'll actually turn out to be a pretty decent DM. Nothing gets ones ideas about there own campaign going like playing and observing a good DM. But... nothing sours a player and sends them searching for a different hobby like a terrible one.

"Something, something, something, Darkside. Utini."

Swinging by from the CharOp forums to say I appreciate the input you guys are giving the OP, and I apologize on behalf of Techpriest. He got a little overzealous, and while some fun at the expense of an OT thread is one thing, the OP's thread is no longer off-topic here. I'm sure TP will abstain from any further disruptions in this thread.
Swinging by from the CharOp forums to say I appreciate the input you guys are giving the OP, and I apologize on behalf of Techpriest. He got a little overzealous, and while some fun at the expense of an OT thread is one thing, the OP's thread is no longer off-topic here. I'm sure TP will abstain from any further disruptions in this thread.


Yeah, i kinda followed Tech here but since this is the proper forum for the Discussion i felt it would be best to give the DM a chance to change. It really served no purpose to berate and belittle him at every turn. If he was still stubborn and unmoving this forum would deal with it.

"Something, something, something, Darkside. Utini."

Swinging by from the CharOp forums to say I appreciate the input you guys are giving the OP, and I apologize on behalf of Techpriest. He got a little overzealous, and while some fun at the expense of an OT thread is one thing, the OP's thread is no longer off-topic here. I'm sure TP will abstain from any further disruptions in this thread.


Yeah, i kinda followed Tech here but since this is the proper forum for the Discussion i felt it would be best to give the DM a chance to change. It really served no purpose to berate and belittle him at every turn. If he was still stubborn and unmoving this forum would deal with it.



Good thing I'm not stubborn and unmoving. Of course in game however, I take on a more active role in defining things. I have some standards.
And the #1 item for the morally bankrupt... Why settle for a statue of a nude elf in your bedroom when you have a real, live nude elf, petrified and unpetrified on your command. She wears a tiara, when you utter a command word, she will be petrified, unpetrified, or disciplined. Any attempts by her to remove the tiara will be futile. Use her only as a statue, or to entertain any debauched desires you may have. 125,000 GP.
Good thing I'm not stubborn and unmoving. Of course in game however, I take on a more active role in defining things. I have some standards.

Then i offically welcome you to the community.

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Swinging by from the CharOp forums to say I appreciate the input you guys are giving the OP, and I apologize on behalf of Techpriest. He got a little overzealous, and while some fun at the expense of an OT thread is one thing, the OP's thread is no longer off-topic here. I'm sure TP will abstain from any further disruptions in this thread.


Yeah, i kinda followed Tech here but since this is the proper forum for the Discussion i felt it would be best to give the DM a chance to change. It really served no purpose to berate and belittle him at every turn. If he was still stubborn and unmoving this forum would deal with it.



Good thing I'm not stubborn and unmoving. Of course in game however, I take on a more active role in defining things. I have some standards.



You did a rather poor job of demonstrating that you're not stubborn and unmoving, however.  You may want to take that into consideration in regards to posting style.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
OP, I've been DM'ing for over 20 years now.  I'm telling you right now, you are making a mistake with that level 8 character.  He's not even needed as a level 1.  If you can't feel happy without a pc of your own, then maybe you should'nt run games.  You will never have that pc as fair.  You will either overindulge him, or underindulge him.  There will be situations where he will overpower everything.  And there will be situations where he could have helped, but you were playing him too subserviant.

Oh, and the gandalf thing?  It didn't work.  We are talking about an extremely high level wizard who almost never cast spells.  All those fights the group was in?  The wizard should have been able to stop them without breaking a sweat.  Gandalf wasn't even with the party all that much.  He fought melee for goodness sakes.  Even in 2e, at his level it should not have been a problem. 
No, you are more on the line of making that ranger guy.  And every fight he was in?  He dominated.  The others did nothing compared to him.  They could have played patticake for all the good they did.

Good thing I'm not stubborn and unmoving. Of course in game however, I take on a more active role in defining things. I have some standards.


This here is exactly what I'm talking about.  You are the DM.  You already have an active role in defining things.  Run the game, but let the players decide how they get to their destination.  Your standards are too controlling.


Zinna Thornsong, Level 1 Shifter (Longtooth) Wild Warden
CG, Melora
(Played by my Girlfriend, the only female character and player so far. The least experienced.)


It's nice that she wants to participate with you, but this is a problem.  It would be great if she were to learn to keep the game separate from other things.  But I've yet to see that happen.  In all my years of running games, I've never seen bothers/sisters/spouses/girlfriends/boyfriends who don't bring their rivalries to the game.  Good luck, but be prepared in case it separates you.  And what happens if you do break up?  It's going to put a lot of stress on the game.
OP, I've been DM'ing for over 20 years now.  I'm telling you right now, you are making a mistake with that level 8 character.  He's not even needed as a level 1.  If you can't feel happy without a pc of your own, then maybe you should'nt run games.  You will never have that pc as fair.  You will either overindulge him, or underindulge him.  There will be situations where he will overpower everything.  And there will be situations where he could have helped, but you were playing him too subserviant.

Oh, and the gandalf thing?  It didn't work.  We are talking about an extremely high level wizard who almost never cast spells.  All those fights the group was in?  The wizard should have been able to stop them without breaking a sweat.  Gandalf wasn't even with the party all that much.  He fought melee for goodness sakes.  Even in 2e, at his level it should not have been a problem. 
No, you are more on the line of making that ranger guy.  And every fight he was in?  He dominated.  The others did nothing compared to him.  They could have played patticake for all the good they did.

Good thing I'm not stubborn and unmoving. Of course in game however, I take on a more active role in defining things. I have some standards.


This here is exactly what I'm talking about.  You are the DM.  You already have an active role in defining things.  Run the game, but let the players decide how they get to their destination.  Your standards are too controlling.




Good sir, my standards are don't do anything too silly and don't be a tool to others at the table. I let them do what they want. Thank you for you Gandalf explantion. It was good.  But really, I've DMed maybe five total times, each for a different party. I'm still coming into my own as a DM.

And the girlfriend thing is solved rather easily. She's the blocker, and I don't fake die rolls. She dies whenever. Granted that she still has to pick a bonus (I give all my players a gift or boon to start) but at the same time she joined up to get closer to me. She can leave whenever she wants to. She's always welcome. And if we do break up, we're smart enough to remain friends. Although we're practically married in our minds. But I digress, thank you for your advice.
And the #1 item for the morally bankrupt... Why settle for a statue of a nude elf in your bedroom when you have a real, live nude elf, petrified and unpetrified on your command. She wears a tiara, when you utter a command word, she will be petrified, unpetrified, or disciplined. Any attempts by her to remove the tiara will be futile. Use her only as a statue, or to entertain any debauched desires you may have. 125,000 GP.
*kicks door in, clad in mk8 Power armor and carrying a heavy flamer*
 
PURGE THE XENOS SCUM!



But in  all seriousness, I've read the two threads you've posted and I'm gonna give you some DM to DM advice.

1. Don't factor your Half-Elf in as a character. He's a plot device, a McGuffin that is there to save the players. Just because you want to "play" a PC doesn't mean you should. As DM, you have to create a world, weave a story and be every NPC that the players ever encounter.

2. The ability to turn into a dragon is vastly overpowered for a heroic tier character. The only comparable PC equivalents are the Draconic Incarnate ED which lets you turn into a dragon spirit once a day when you die and then once a day as an utility power or the level 29 Sorcerer Daily power Wyrm Form.

3. Even if he's a PC from another game you love doesn't mean he should be in another game to show how awesome he is. I'll use my character from a game my friend (Grdian4 in case you wanna ask) ran. Turns out he was a Dogma-style Manifestation of God. Didn't know it but that's what I learned in the very last session after we slew Asmodeus and saved the World from utter destruction. Now I loved Kaivaan, complete monster that he was, but I'm not gonna port him into other games and go "I AM GOD! KNEEL BEFORE ME!"

4. Elaborate on how/why there is a illithid tadpole in one PC's mind and what you're planning on doing with that since you said another player controls the tadpole. If you're not familiar with D&D lore, a tadpole kills and metamorphs the host's flesh into an illithid. So by doing that, you've effectively got one player doing nothing and the other just waiting until his character dies horribly and painfully so the other can have his character.
Spiteful Wizard and Voice of Reason of the House of Trolls The Silent God of the House of Trolls Unfrozen OTTer Arbiter of the House of Trolls Yes, I have many titles. Deal with it.


4. Elaborate on how/why there is a illithid tadpole in one PC's mind and what you're planning on doing with that since you said another player controls the tadpole. If you're not familiar with D&D lore, a tadpole kills and metamorphs the host's flesh into an illithid. So by doing that, you've effectively got one player doing nothing and the other just waiting until his character dies horribly and painfully so the other can have his character.




Okay, maybe I should explain the situation, as good as your idea is.


Thaver does not have a living illithid in his head. He has a spirit of a mad mage, giving him his LE alignment, formerly CE before my half-elf used a bit of macguffin magic to help him out by quieting the mind flayer's ravings. This allows Thaver to have a bit of madness in a otherwise "burn the innocent" storyline for himself. I shouldn't have to mention that Thaver owes my half-elf his sanity, as Gary stu as that is. I came up with that on the spot when he asked why a LE would join up with CG.
And the #1 item for the morally bankrupt... Why settle for a statue of a nude elf in your bedroom when you have a real, live nude elf, petrified and unpetrified on your command. She wears a tiara, when you utter a command word, she will be petrified, unpetrified, or disciplined. Any attempts by her to remove the tiara will be futile. Use her only as a statue, or to entertain any debauched desires you may have. 125,000 GP.
Interesting. But even as you point out, your Dragon is a Gary Stu. Think of it this way from the player's persepective: If the Dragon can fly across continents, fight hordes of orcs and use magic capable of changing alignments, why are we doing the adventuring? The Dragon can do all of that, better than any of us.

My honest suggestion? Simply tell the player that you came up with that answer quickly and didn't give it too much thought. Ask him not to play Chaotic Evil (ie Stupid Evil) or Lawful Evil (ie Stupid Evil), instead playing Unaligned if he doesn't want to be Good or Lawful Good. Simply retcon the situation and everyone acts as if the other never happened. Actually, no don't ask him not to play * Evil. Tell him not to play * Evil.

The average D&D player cannot manage an Evil character without resorting to Stupid Evil.
Spiteful Wizard and Voice of Reason of the House of Trolls The Silent God of the House of Trolls Unfrozen OTTer Arbiter of the House of Trolls Yes, I have many titles. Deal with it.
Interesting. But even as you point out, your Dragon is a Gary Stu. Think of it this way from the player's persepective: If the Dragon can fly across continents, fight hordes of orcs and use magic capable of changing alignments, why are we doing the adventuring? The Dragon can do all of that, better than any of us.

My honest suggestion? Simply tell the player that you came up with that answer quickly and didn't give it too much thought. Ask him not to play Chaotic Evil (ie Stupid Evil) or Lawful Evil (ie Stupid Evil), instead playing Unaligned if he doesn't want to be Good or Lawful Good. Simply retcon the situation and everyone acts as if the other never happened. Actually, no don't ask him not to play * Evil. Tell him not to play * Evil.

The average D&D player cannot manage an Evil character without resorting to Stupid Evil.




Good points. But the dragon is Gargantuan, so most adventures couldn't accomadate it's size. Outdoor maybe, but indoor no. Dungeon crawls are similar. Besides, I was referring to my player as a slight Gary Stu, not the dragon.  And I might be able to get Thaver to play unaligned.
And the #1 item for the morally bankrupt... Why settle for a statue of a nude elf in your bedroom when you have a real, live nude elf, petrified and unpetrified on your command. She wears a tiara, when you utter a command word, she will be petrified, unpetrified, or disciplined. Any attempts by her to remove the tiara will be futile. Use her only as a statue, or to entertain any debauched desires you may have. 125,000 GP.
Interesting. But even as you point out, your Dragon is a Gary Stu. Think of it this way from the player's persepective: If the Dragon can fly across continents, fight hordes of orcs and use magic capable of changing alignments, why are we doing the adventuring? The Dragon can do all of that, better than any of us.

My honest suggestion? Simply tell the player that you came up with that answer quickly and didn't give it too much thought. Ask him not to play Chaotic Evil (ie Stupid Evil) or Lawful Evil (ie Stupid Evil), instead playing Unaligned if he doesn't want to be Good or Lawful Good. Simply retcon the situation and everyone acts as if the other never happened. Actually, no don't ask him not to play * Evil. Tell him not to play * Evil.

The average D&D player cannot manage an Evil character without resorting to Stupid Evil.




Good points. But the dragon is Gargantuan, so most adventures couldn't accomadate it's size. Outdoor maybe, but indoor no. Dungeon crawls are similar. Besides, I was referring to my player as a slight Gary Stu, not the dragon.  And I might be able to get Thaver to play unaligned.



Oh, I totally misread that then. I thought you were referring to the Dragon as a Gary Stu (which I still believe him to be).  And in regards to the Dragon doing the stuff, it's a Dragon! Noted for magic, phenominal physical and mental powers. It's the idea that is important, not the fact that you made him Gargantuan (otherwise known as an Ancient Wyrm dragon and would be high, high Epic tier as a monster)
Spiteful Wizard and Voice of Reason of the House of Trolls The Silent God of the House of Trolls Unfrozen OTTer Arbiter of the House of Trolls Yes, I have many titles. Deal with it.
Though I notice aside from your DMPC, you have a Defender and Two Strikers. If I hop in, I'll probably bring a leadery class.
Interesting. But even as you point out, your Dragon is a Gary Stu. Think of it this way from the player's persepective: If the Dragon can fly across continents, fight hordes of orcs and use magic capable of changing alignments, why are we doing the adventuring? The Dragon can do all of that, better than any of us.

My honest suggestion? Simply tell the player that you came up with that answer quickly and didn't give it too much thought. Ask him not to play Chaotic Evil (ie Stupid Evil) or Lawful Evil (ie Stupid Evil), instead playing Unaligned if he doesn't want to be Good or Lawful Good. Simply retcon the situation and everyone acts as if the other never happened. Actually, no don't ask him not to play * Evil. Tell him not to play * Evil.

The average D&D player cannot manage an Evil character without resorting to Stupid Evil.




Good points. But the dragon is Gargantuan, so most adventures couldn't accomadate it's size. Outdoor maybe, but indoor no. Dungeon crawls are similar. Besides, I was referring to my player as a slight Gary Stu, not the dragon.  And I might be able to get Thaver to play unaligned.



Oh, I totally misread that then. I thought you were referring to the Dragon as a Gary Stu (which I still believe him to be).  And in regards to the Dragon doing the stuff, it's a Dragon! Noted for magic, phenominal physical and mental powers. It's the idea that is important, not the fact that you made him Gargantuan (otherwise known as an Ancient Wyrm dragon and would be high, high Epic tier as a monster)



To be specific, it's Icingdeath. Hehe.

But really, the only other ones are a redspawn firebelcher, a young green, a young blue and a young black. I don't have the stat card for blue, so I wouldn't use it. The dragon form would come in much later if I did use my DMPC.
And the #1 item for the morally bankrupt... Why settle for a statue of a nude elf in your bedroom when you have a real, live nude elf, petrified and unpetrified on your command. She wears a tiara, when you utter a command word, she will be petrified, unpetrified, or disciplined. Any attempts by her to remove the tiara will be futile. Use her only as a statue, or to entertain any debauched desires you may have. 125,000 GP.
Well it would appear that any and all advice is once again falling upon deaf ears. There really is no more to be said.

Do not have new players play evil PC's.(or any players for that matter)

Do not play a DMPC.

If you need another player for the group just make a companion as per the rules.

If you do not wish to take advice or alter your stance then just delete your threads and be done with it. You clearly have it all figured out so why even create these threads, are you here to just point out the awesomeness of your PC? If thats the case please post a full build for commentary over in the charOP or charDev forums. I'm sure it will get all the respect it so rightly deserves.

"Something, something, something, Darkside. Utini."

Interesting. But even as you point out, your Dragon is a Gary Stu. Think of it this way from the player's persepective: If the Dragon can fly across continents, fight hordes of orcs and use magic capable of changing alignments, why are we doing the adventuring? The Dragon can do all of that, better than any of us.

My honest suggestion? Simply tell the player that you came up with that answer quickly and didn't give it too much thought. Ask him not to play Chaotic Evil (ie Stupid Evil) or Lawful Evil (ie Stupid Evil), instead playing Unaligned if he doesn't want to be Good or Lawful Good. Simply retcon the situation and everyone acts as if the other never happened. Actually, no don't ask him not to play * Evil. Tell him not to play * Evil.

The average D&D player cannot manage an Evil character without resorting to Stupid Evil.




Good points. But the dragon is Gargantuan, so most adventures couldn't accomadate it's size. Outdoor maybe, but indoor no. Dungeon crawls are similar. Besides, I was referring to my player as a slight Gary Stu, not the dragon.  And I might be able to get Thaver to play unaligned.



Oh, I totally misread that then. I thought you were referring to the Dragon as a Gary Stu (which I still believe him to be).  And in regards to the Dragon doing the stuff, it's a Dragon! Noted for magic, phenominal physical and mental powers. It's the idea that is important, not the fact that you made him Gargantuan (otherwise known as an Ancient Wyrm dragon and would be high, high Epic tier as a monster)



To be specific, it's Icingdeath. Hehe.

But really, the only other ones are a redspawn firebelcher, a young green, a young blue and a young black. I don't have the stat card for blue, so I wouldn't use it. The dragon form would come in much later if I did use my DMPC.



No. Just don't. You are playing 4e and Icingdeath's card was 3.5 D&D. There is no way you can combine the two without the Dragon simply crushing the party. And I implore you not to even stat him up. A Dragon is a Monster, who's stats and design are absolutely opposite of what a PC is like. There is no comparison between a Warden and a Dragon in combat. The second will just *insert verb describing dragon's breath type here* the Warden or rend him with claws.

Spiteful Wizard and Voice of Reason of the House of Trolls The Silent God of the House of Trolls Unfrozen OTTer Arbiter of the House of Trolls Yes, I have many titles. Deal with it.
It's nice that she wants to participate with you, but this is a problem.  It would be great if she were to learn to keep the game separate from other things.  But I've yet to see that happen.  In all my years of running games, I've never seen bothers/sisters/spouses/girlfriends/boyfriends who don't bring their rivalries to the game.  Good luck, but be prepared in case it separates you.  And what happens if you do break up?  It's going to put a lot of stress on the game.

For what its worth I've seen it done fairly regulalrly and its not annoying. I think it depends on whether you and your SO are annoying to hang with together outside dnd. 


In full disclosure, I regulalrly game with my wife at the table. I don't think we are annoying but thats fairly biased. I also know we play with other pairings and don't think all of them are terrible about it. Probably half. I think its also directly related to how long you've been together. (we also don't only game together, I play in games she isn't a part of relatively regulalrly)


The most our PCs have ever been a couple, was the one time I played a dwarven knight who was a very good friend to her PCs father, and took on the job of protecting her bard after her father passed. Outside that, its been basically like every other PC at the table. 


On topic, OP what do you hope to get out of this thread? This is the second one, and basically everyone has said that you are making huge mistakes. You've also basically said that you weren't going to adjust. So whats your end goal with this thread?

"In a way, you are worse than Krusk"                               " As usual, Krusk comments with assuredness, but lacks the clarity and awareness of what he's talking about"

"Can't say enough how much I agree with Krusk"        "Wow, thank you very much"

"Your advice is the worst"                                                  "I'd recommend no one listed to Krusk's opinions about what games to play"

The only time playing as a DMPC has ever worked for was when I was playing a 3rd level, forgetful grandfather type to another one of the PCs.  He was mostly there to add comedic relief and make sure they didnt do anything to stupid was secondary, and he went away very quickly into the campaign.
I understand the appeal of the evil alignment.  I do.  I still say it's not a wise decision.  Even experienced players can cause issues with evil pc's.   As a new group, I strongly strongly suggest dodging this bullet early and don't let it happen.  Again, friends in real life, can get pretty divergent as characters.  Convoluted stories do not equal awesome PC's.  This is a common mistake to new players.  The more fantastic the background story, the less connection to anything we acknowledge as reality, and the harder it becomes to play properly.  Wild thematics do not actually count as richness.  You might think of it this way.

Backgrounds that include magically forced alignment changes is akin to a Michael Bay movie.

A solid fleshed out background is like a David Fincher movie.

One has alot of glitz, but not much depth, the other goes for the depth more often than not.  I can't recall a single scene from the last Transformer's movie other than the skyline to Chicago.

I had Seven messing with my head for two months after watching it once.

Insane is never a good start for a brand new player.  Especially since it's general psychosis.  I'm saying this to help you.  There's nothing this will add to the table, and has an incredibly high likely hood of causing strife.  Plus, it plays itself out fairly quickly, and then becomes mundane.

I'm not going to harp as much about the significant other.  I've seen it work, I've seen it not work.  Make sure that when you're running you're not looking at the character as her.  It's not her.  It's an idea she came up with.  You've disagreed with ideas she's come up with before.  I'm certain of this, even if it's just that you wanted Chinese when she wanted a hamburger... or vice versa.  At the table she is not a beautiful and unique snowflake.  (Now stuck on Fincher movies... d'oh)  She's another player character.  They should be rewarded for doing something great IC, unique ideas, etc.  Your relationship should not play into it.

Finally, PC's don't need a dragon, nor do they need a dragon with stats from an edition that's not the one you're running in.  There's better ways that aren't going to be a huge headache and possibly campaign ending or at least campaign ruining.  I again warn against this.
If it's about the transporting stuff thing, I can pick up a Bard with the Ritualist feat and grab Tenser's Floating Disc.
Or it could be a good skill challenge for them to find their own transportation if going long distances?  Also, not just flying but travelling by ship or such gives you more chances to expand the world.  Just in case Bard isn't the flavor you wanted it shouldn't be an insurmountable thing.  Heck worse case scenario you send them on a quest to find an ancient artifact and have a magically flying boat, or to free some type of creature that you'd want for them to have as mounts (thus adding character flair).  Nothing wrong with having a bard, but if you have the opportunity to make something more personal for the PC's, I'd say do it.

Then again one DM pinned me with an Auromvorax as a familiar, which initially I didn't want, but became such great character flair Goldy became a local favorite.
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