Is it possible to create the "Perfect Deck" ??? And are they being sore losers?

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My friend wants to build a deck that can deal with every possible senarior that could ever possibly come up in every single game regardless of what deck he is facing to ensure he will always win (like a Chuck Norris deck lol).

His general idea is to use the major strengths of all five colors inside a single deck composed of 80+ cards so that he could have life gaining, countering, creature killing, direct damage, and creature pumping spells. Basically a deck that can be used to do all the most powerful effects that each color can produce with little to no weakness.

This idea came up due to the fact that I win most games. I once won using ONE Loxodon Warhammer now both my friends' decks deal with lifegaining. I wasn't allowed to use my milling deck because they couldn't get to use thier cards. I can't use my merfolk deck because it's too fast for them. They get pissed when they try to use a powerful spell like Boon Reflection and I just Cancel or Mana Leak it. They copy any powerful card I use or look up the most powerful cards designed to beat me. When we play all they do is focus on beating me.

But I digress... my question basically is: is there any way to build a super deck that could never be defeated no matter what the opponent does? Logically I say no but for thier amusement I wanted an answer from outside sources.

Thanks guys.

No, the game's designed so that multiple strategies are always viable. All making an 80+ card deck with a little bit of everything will do is make a deck that does poorly at everything. The best route is to foucus a deck around winning in one or two ways, while making it flexible enough to deal with a number of strategies well.  Also, sideboards are good for including cards good for specific situations but otherwise sub-par.
Thank you Blitzschnell for the awesome banner!
life gaining


creature pumping spells


most powerful effects that each color can produce


:v :v :v :v :v 
:v :v :v :v :v 



Anyway, what you are asking is impossible. One deck will be weak to another deck, even the most broken combo decks can be hated out. And mixing five colors and playing over sixty cards is not the way to go about making a good deck (technically you could make a pretty powerful five color deck, but you'd need some of the better fixing in the game).

That's what I kept telling him. I told him a strong deck focuses on a single strategy which will make it come in stronger.

I run a mono-blue deck that focuses on merfolk, synergy (using +1/+1 counters) and islandwalk. As well as a few spells to ensure the main strategy will work. Apparently that is "unfair" and "impossible to beat" -_-

While some decks can have a favourable match vs. most opponents, Sleeping's right - any deck can be hated out if enough hate is thrown at it.

Perhaps your friends take the game less 'seriously' than you? I don't mean anything negative by this, but it sounds like your friends see your decks/playstyle as 'unfun'.
While some decks can have a favourable match vs. most opponents, Sleeping's right - any deck can be hated out if enough hate is thrown at it.

Perhaps your friends take the game less 'seriously' than you? I don't mean anything negative by this, but it sounds like your friends see your decks/playstyle as 'unfun'.

On the contrary... they take the game WAY more seriously than I do, to the point that it gets annoying. They waste money weekly on cards, I designed one deck, bought it and and only bought cards to tweak it as needed. I play just for something fun to do, they play to win at any cost.

They also do see my deck as 'unfun' only because they believe that if they have a bunch of the most powerful and craziest cards with the niftiest abilities, they should win with ease but I go simple yet effective and win.

I have one saying for this kind of deck:

Jack of all trades, master of none.

There's no "I win!" deck to be made, every deck has strengths and weaknesses. Otherwise everyone would play only that deck and no others. Pretty much a waste of all the thousands of cards that currently exist for the game.
I have one saying for this kind of deck:

Jack of all trades, master of none.

There's no "I win!" deck to be made, every deck has strengths and weaknesses. Otherwise everyone would play only that deck and no others. Pretty much a waste of all the thousands of cards that currently exist for the game.

Agreed.

However I think they so desprately want to win that they will do whatever they think it will take to do so. Sigh... to me it's just a fun game. To them it's almost a need to win.

While some decks can have a favourable match vs. most opponents, Sleeping's right - any deck can be hated out if enough hate is thrown at it.

Perhaps your friends take the game less 'seriously' than you? I don't mean anything negative by this, but it sounds like your friends see your decks/playstyle as 'unfun'.

Also my playstyle is quite simple. Merfolk+pumping+islandwalk and that's it. We once played a game where thier life total got up to 150 and I was down to 3 (when I decided to not use my merfolk deck). It's not that my deck is unfun, I just use common sense and logic.

i smell some spikes
i smell some spikes

What's a spike if you don't mind me asking?

wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Spike

lmfao you my friend just made my day XD

Pretty scrubby Spikes though. And scrubby Spikes are the worst because it is rare that they'll get what the want. They want to win the game, but they refuse to try.
Pretty scrubby Spikes though. And scrubby Spikes are the worst because it is rare that they'll get what the want. They want to win the game, but they refuse to try.

Oh no they try, I guess. They just have no aim. Thier strategy is always the same... if it's powerful, nifty or will give them a buttload of life or does some crazy, unnecessary thing that MIGHT help them in the long run, they'll put it in.

When I told one of them that 60-cards is only the minimum, the dude made a 95-card deck last night filled with a whole bunch of high costing cards or cards that, as usual, gave him a buttload of life. Then wondered why it didn't work well (couldn't draw lands or anything).

Well here is a 1st turn lose deck: Opening hand : Swamp, Dark Ritual, Entomb,
Exhume and it doesn't matter what else.

Step 1: Play the Swamp and tap it for Dark Ritual.
Step 2: Play Entomb and search for Phage the Untouchable
Step 3: Exhume Phage
Step 4: You lose.

Hard to counter and I'll pretty much work everytime.  

I guess it's perfect in a way your loss percentage will be near 100%.   


My decks, mostly casuals, but some I use online with some small changes: http://www.mtgvault.com/Profile.aspx?UserID=91484
I feel like the best addition to the thread is this: You can build a deck to beat anything, but you can't beat everything.
Said by Manuel Bucher. 

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56819178 wrote:
So, how would I use a card that has a large in the top half and "sui?l? -- pu?? ?is?q" across the middle?
57031358 wrote:
99113151 wrote:
Winning is not important if: 1. You win by a blowout. 2. You pay billions of dollars in cards to win. If you like wasting money just to win one game, while you could have saved it to lose a few and end up winning more in the future, then it is fine by me.
what? do you ceremonially light your deck on fire after a win?
57169958 wrote:
Or did no one notice Transmogrifying Licid before. (And by not notice, I mean covered their ears and shouted LA LA LA LA )
57193048 wrote:
57169958 wrote:
Hmmm... I think the most awkward situation at the moment is simply the Myr Welder / Equipment / Licid / Aura craziness, but I'm pretty sure he's aware of it.
If the most awkward thing going on right now involves Licids, I declare victory.
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[02:47:46] It doesn't merely "come out of suspend" - you take the last time counter off, and then suspend triggers and say "now cast that! CAST IT NOOOOOW!" [02:47:49] Because suspend has no indoors voice
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58325628 wrote:
Mage is awesome, BTW.
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58158398 wrote:
56761258 wrote:
I don't think there are any cards like that. There are things that prevent you from activating activated abilities, things that increase their cost, and things that counter them, but I don't think anything triggers from them specifically. There are things that trigger from targeting, so that might be relevant, but I can't think of anything that triggers from targeting a player. I'm almost positive there's nothing that triggers from damage being prevented.
Rings of Brighthearth; Dormant Gomazoa; Samite Ministration.
56761258 wrote:
Well played.

 

Play 5 colour with every ultimatum card, and every command card.
Your friends sound more like Johnnies to me than Spikes (Johnnies are addicted to big, splashy cards and combos, and prefer to win that way).

Most players start out this way (most, mind, but not all). Being attracted to life gain is pretty normal too.

Sounds like your friends have some serious attachments to certain cards or play styles that just aren't good, and instead of understanding this and letting them go, they cling to them and declare anything that doens't let them play their baby as broken, unfun, unfair or cheap.

I've found that the best way to help them out is to sit down with them and help them build a deck that actually has a win condition, and a way to achieve it. Once they start playing with it and winning, they will be more open to advice on what is good and have an easier time letting their pet cards go. When they see that your deck isn't "unfair" or "broken" and instead just well built, they should loosen up a bit, build better decks and be more fun to play with.

My only question to you is: are you playing with much older cards than them? (I only ask because Merfolk is a real Legacy tournament viable deck)
If so, card power level disparity could also be a factor here.

I agree with VRdragoon; they sound more like Johnnies. You keep mentioning that they like to play the big, high-CMC cards with overwhelming effects (see Plague Wind) rather than smaller cards that, while not as powerful, are much more efficient (see Liliana of the Veil, Innocent Blood, Diabolic Edict, Go For the Throat, Murder).

If this is the case, I would direct you to try introducing EDH into your playgroup. It is a much more accepting format for high-CMC cards, and most decks are tuned for the late game with those powerful cards, rather than the early game, like a normal Standard 60-card deck, where everything is 4-ofs.

As VRdragoon pointed out, most players like being able to play those big flashy spells. It's just that, as you become a better player, you quickly realize that in a typical constructed format, you want to be able to play stuff on turns 1-5 more than turns 5-10. EDH lets you stop worrying about turns 1-5, because most decks use the first few turns to mana ramp. I love EDH, and I've seen hardcore Standard-format players fall in love with it as well, once they've gotten the hang of switching their deck-building mind set.

Who wouldn't love being able to hard cast things like Blightsteel Colossus, Avacyn, Angel of Hope, Insurrection, Omniscience, Plague Wind, and... I don't know....what can't Green normally hard cast?


Anyway, tl;dr : They should try EDH.
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Totally agree with what has been said already.  There is really no way to make a perfect deck.  Chances are you are gonna get mana screwed every once in awhile.  It's just part of the game.  I had a deck of 5 colors once that had only the best spells or creatures possible from each color.  It played pretty well.  I really think though my friends at the time didn't know what they were doing so the deck played better that it should have. 

What you could do is make a list for them and show them the cost of this monster.  I mean if you play 5 colors might as well go with the real dual lands aka Underground Sea.  Also you will need al the moxes (Mox Pearl).  Maybe time walk, timetwister, Moat and Mana Drain.  I think once they see the price of this then that will change there tune. 

I think what it is that you win all the time and they don't.  Nobody likes to lose all the time.  Maybe what you can do is make a deck that would be less powerful and it will give them a chance to win.

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Life Test

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To me these friends sound like jerks, and sore losers. But I don't know them so I could be wrong. You COULD make a deck that covers every option but it would never win simple because its too spread out and just because you have somthing to answer what someone does in a deck, theres no way you can have the answer in hand and able to play it at the right time every time. The odds are just not possible. However I will offer this, do they know about Relentless rat decks? Some version of this they might find fun, if not an all powerful 100% win deck.



Personally I'd go with about 20 rats and use the extra slots for support cards like removal, life gain/loss, or card draw. not sure if it works but if it does Disciple of Bolas would go good in here too.
Your friends sound more like Johnnies to me than Spikes (Johnnies are addicted to big, splashy cards and combos, and prefer to win that way).

Most players start out this way (most, mind, but not all). Being attracted to life gain is pretty normal too.

Sounds like your friends have some serious attachments to certain cards or play styles that just aren't good, and instead of understanding this and letting them go, they cling to them and declare anything that doens't let them play their baby as broken, unfun, unfair or cheap.

I've found that the best way to help them out is to sit down with them and help them build a deck that actually has a win condition, and a way to achieve it. Once they start playing with it and winning, they will be more open to advice on what is good and have an easier time letting their pet cards go. When they see that your deck isn't "unfair" or "broken" and instead just well built, they should loosen up a bit, build better decks and be more fun to play with.

My only question to you is: are you playing with much older cards than them? (I only ask because Merfolk is a real Legacy tournament viable deck)
If so, card power level disparity could also be a factor here.


I actually helped one of them build about three decks (one was mono-blue, control with fliers, another a red/green beast deck and another was a green elf deck).

And I aggree that "Johnnies" does sound more like them. And no I don't use older cards exactly, I just got the Master of the Pearl Trident the day it came out. The only "old" card that I would say I use is just my Lord of Atlantis but that's it lol.

I also run Silvergill Adept , Merrow Reejerey and Merfolk Sovereign my creatures are all generally "new" kinda and my most powerful non-creature spell would probably be Ponder (I love that card lol). I only use my non-creature spells to turn thier lands into islands with Aquitect's Will and turn my offense into a ready defense with Merrow Commerce.

My deck is quite basic and simple, but effective and fast to play 

I agree with VRdragoon; they sound more like Johnnies. You keep mentioning that they like to play the big, high-CMC cards with overwhelming effects (see Plague Wind) rather than smaller cards that, while not as powerful, are much more efficient (see Liliana of the Veil, Innocent Blood, Diabolic Edict, Go For the Throat, Murder).

If this is the case, I would direct you to try introducing EDH into your playgroup. It is a much more accepting format for high-CMC cards, and most decks are tuned for the late game with those powerful cards, rather than the early game, like a normal Standard 60-card deck, where everything is 4-ofs.

As VRdragoon pointed out, most players like being able to play those big flashy spells. It's just that, as you become a better player, you quickly realize that in a typical constructed format, you want to be able to play stuff on turns 1-5 more than turns 5-10. EDH lets you stop worrying about turns 1-5, because most decks use the first few turns to mana ramp. I love EDH, and I've seen hardcore Standard-format players fall in love with it as well, once they've gotten the hang of switching their deck-building mind set.

Who wouldn't love being able to hard cast things like Blightsteel Colossus, Avacyn, Angel of Hope, Insurrection, Omniscience, Plague Wind, and... I don't know....what can't Green normally hard cast?


Anyway, tl;dr : They should try EDH.

Out of all the spells you mentioned... Omniscience was the only one I liked :D that sounds like a really cool card!! Wouldn't know how to play it without somehow getting an abundance of land.

Totally agree with what has been said already.  There is really no way to make a perfect deck.  Chances are you are gonna get mana screwed every once in awhile.  It's just part of the game.  I had a deck of 5 colors once that had only the best spells or creatures possible from each color.  It played pretty well.  I really think though my friends at the time didn't know what they were doing so the deck played better that it should have. 

What you could do is make a list for them and show them the cost of this monster.  I mean if you play 5 colors might as well go with the real dual lands aka Underground Sea.  Also you will need al the moxes (Mox Pearl).  Maybe time walk, timetwister, Moat and Mana Drain.  I think once they see the price of this then that will change there tune. 

I think what it is that you win all the time and they don't.  Nobody likes to lose all the time.  Maybe what you can do is make a deck that would be less powerful and it will give them a chance to win.

But that's the thing... my deck isn't powerful it's just strong. I run merfolk... I see plenty of weakness there. First off... no fliers... seconly, they depend on eachother for synergy... lastly I can barely deal with cards already out (as blue normally can't). The problem isn't the power of my deck, it's the speed in comparison to theirs :\

See if they cry "foul" with this deck -



Edit: I'm dumb, you really only need 1 Seismic Assault, leaving more room for delicious lands.
To me these friends sound like jerks, and sore losers. But I don't know them so I could be wrong. You COULD make a deck that covers every option but it would never win simple because its too spread out and just because you have somthing to answer what someone does in a deck, theres no way you can have the answer in hand and able to play it at the right time every time. The odds are just not possible. However I will offer this, do they know about Relentless rat decks? Some version of this they might find fun, if not an all powerful 100% win deck.



Personally I'd go with about 20 rats and use the extra slots for support cards like removal, life gain/loss, or card draw. not sure if it works but if it does Disciple of Bolas would go good in here too.

That sounds like a pretty cool deck idea :D (not my cup of tea though lol)

I wouldn't call them jerks... sore loser's is better. They make me feel like I gotta "dumn down" my deck to make things easier for them so that way they could use thier Exquisite Blood with Boon Reflection and Celestial Mantal with one of thier Ulamog's Crusher equipped to a Whispersilk Cloak and Eldrazi Conscription >.< while all I have are a few 1/1 creatures that don't do anything lol (and yes they tried that combo before)

See if they cry "foul" with this deck -


Hahaha

Your fish deck is pretty close to some tournament lists, which given that you built it yourself is pretty sweet. I think you are only missing cursecatcher from the competitive lists in terms of creatures. Add in Aether Vial and add some effecient counter magic and your friends will hate you for the rest of your life.

I only bring this up because you are essentially playing a competitive archetype vs. whatever silliness they bring to the table. I'm not going to say you should tone your deck down (because thats a straight path to everyone being bad players), but it explains a lot of the frustration on their end.
Even though they really, really want to win, they don't understand what it takes to make a competitive deck, or they refuse to build a deck that way.

Sadly, there isn't much you can do to convince them to change their playstyle. Casual players are habitually agressive regarding change, especially if it involves abandoning their favorite cards (I've witnessed this a LOT at Friday night Magic).

Of the three decks you helped your friend build, does he play any of them regularly? Does he win at all?

Also, how many are there in your playgroup? Are you the only one with a well-built deck?

The more we know, the more advice we can give you regarding making some attitude adjustments on their behalf. Once they learn to accept advice and try new things, they will have way more fun and become better players.


*edit*
Just thought of an exercise that will help. Challenge your friends to build pauper decks (only commons) and do the same. Typically speaking, commons are lower on the mana cost spectrum, and playing two pauper decks against each other feels very fair for all involved (after all, they can't complain about you having better cards, since you are all using commons). The complexity of the cards is reduced as well, which encourages more focused, straight-forward deck design. Tell them to keep it to one color, and only 60 cards MAX.

Its a great way to familiarize them with just how potent some of the more "bland" cards can be. I have a friend who is just in love with building around ridiculous combos, and doing this helped him focus, since many of his favorite combo cards were uncommon and up. He ended up building a pretty nasty mono-black deck chock full of removal and agressive zombies. Also helps them understand what roles each color plays in the game.

Best part? Cheap as dirt. You can build tons of them. Bonus is that many of the commons you end up using are going to be used when they build normal decks later down the road. 
The only thing really I could suggest is try something different in your deck.  Instead of making aggro decks maybe try something like a control deck or a combo deck.  Other than that don't change for them, they need to learn how to make better decks.  Have you ever shown them this site? 

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Assault of the Minotaurs

Lands
19 Mountain
4 Khalni Garden
1 Thawing Glaciers

 

Artifacts
4 Didgeridoo
4 Gorgon Flail
1 Konda's Banner
1 Tenza, Godo's Maul

 

Spells
4 Assault Strobe

 

Creatures
4 Adaptive Automaton
4 Anaba Ancestor
4 Minotaur Aggressor
4 Talruum Minotaur
4 Gorehorn Minotaurs
4 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
2 Tahngarth, Talruum Hero

Rapid infenction

Lands

18 Forest
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Pendelhaven

 

Creatures
4 Glistener Elf
4 Necropede
4 Ichorclaw Myr

 

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4 Rancor
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Griant Growth
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Invigorate
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Apostle's Blessing

Use your Illusion

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18 Island
4 Halimar Depths

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4 Krovikan Mist
3 Phantom Warrior
3 Phantasmal Dragon
4 Lord of the Unreal
4 Phantasmal Bear
4 Adaptive Automaton
3 Illusory Angel

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2 Swiftfoot Boots

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3 Sleep
4 Ponder
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16 Mountain

4 Goblin Burrows

 

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4 Goblin Grenade
4 Goblin War Strike
2 Brightstone Ritual
2 Quest for the Goblin Lord

 

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4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Goblin Balloon Brigade
3 Goblin Guide
2 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Wardriver
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin King
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Goblin Warchief
1 Siege-Gang Commander
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Look out the Land is Falling

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4 Evoling Wilds
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7 Plains
9 Forest

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3 Vines of Vastwood
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4 Oblivion Ring

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2 Adventuring Gear

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4 Steppe Lynx
4 Ruin Ghost
2 Baloth Woodcrasher
2 Rampaging Baloths
4 Emeria Angel
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Ula's Deep Sea Drezins

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18 Island
4 Halimar Depths

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4 Inkwell Leviathan
3 Kraken Hatchling
3 Sage of Epityr
4 Stormtide Leviathan
2 Grozoth
3 Spiketail Hatchling
3 Cursecatcher


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4 Preordain
4 Dizzy Spell
4 Clockspinning

Green Beatdown

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18 Forest
4 Treetop Village


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Elemental Assault

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Death from the Sky

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4 Judge's Familar
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3 Cloudreach Cavalry
3 Pride of Clouds
2 Emeria Angel
2 Aven Mimeomancer
1 God of Awe

 

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4 Oblivion Ring
2 Battle Screech
2 Airborne Raid

Stompy

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Discard

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Everyone Burns

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Brewing a Storm

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3 Greypelt Refuge
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3 Wrath of God
2 Hurricane


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2 Ghostly Prison
2 Titania's Song
2 Aura of Silence
2 Kismet
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4 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Storm Cauldron
4 Ankh of Mishra
2 Sun Droplet
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Beast Gone Wild

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8 Forest

 

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3 Rampaging Baloths
2 Spearbreaker Behemoth
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Planeswalker
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Elven Rythym Nation

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1 Pendelhaven

 

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2 Biorhythm
2 Hurricane
2 Eldrazi Monument

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3 Blood Artist
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3 Falkenrath Noble
2 Bloodline Keeper

 

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1 No Mercy
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4 Syphon Soul
4 Blood Tithe
3 Exsanguinate

Draw equals Pain

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1 Tolarian Academy
2 Sulfur Falls
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
2 Deserted Temple
2 Reliquary Tower
3 Island
2 Mountain

 

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4 Swans of Bryn Argoll
2 Jace's Archivist
2 Kami of the Crescent Moon
4 Psychosis Crawler

 

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4 Howling Mine
4 Iron Maiden
4 Ebony Owl Netsuke
1 Ivory Tower

 

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4 Winds of Change
4 Molten Psyche
2 Copy Artifact
2 Sunder
2 Cyclonic Rift

Rainbow Sliver

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4 Ancient Ziggurat
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3 Catapult Master
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2 Angel of Glory's Rise
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1 Darien, King of Kjeldor
1 Odric, Master Tactician

 

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4 Skullclamp
2 Eldrazi Monument
1 Mobilization

 

Planeswalker
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Life Test

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2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Miren, the Moaing Well

 

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2 Divinity of Pride
4 Serra Ascendant
4 Martyr of Sands
4 Kami of False Hope

 

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1 Enlightened Tutor
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3 Congregate
2 Well of Lost Dreams
2 Proclamation of Rebirth
4 Chastise
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Planeswalker
1 Ajani Goldmane

 

Your fish deck is pretty close to some tournament lists, which given that you built it yourself is pretty sweet. I think you are only missing cursecatcher from the competitive lists in terms of creatures. Add in Aether Vial and add some effecient counter magic and your friends will hate you for the rest of your life.

I only bring this up because you are essentially playing a competitive archetype vs. whatever silliness they bring to the table. I'm not going to say you should tone your deck down (because thats a straight path to everyone being bad players), but it explains a lot of the frustration on their end.
Even though they really, really want to win, they don't understand what it takes to make a competitive deck, or they refuse to build a deck that way.

Sadly, there isn't much you can do to convince them to change their playstyle. Casual players are habitually agressive regarding change, especially if it involves abandoning their favorite cards (I've witnessed this a LOT at Friday night Magic).

Of the three decks you helped your friend build, does he play any of them regularly? Does he win at all?

Also, how many are there in your playgroup? Are you the only one with a well-built deck?

The more we know, the more advice we can give you regarding making some attitude adjustments on their behalf. Once they learn to accept advice and try new things, they will have way more fun and become better players. 

The decks I helped him build he rarely uses at all. He always goes for the decks with that combo i mentioned above or something else to ensure he could win with the most powerful effects.

I once used his green elf deck against him and even though the cards were generally weak or lacked a focused strategy perse, because it was fast and simple to use, I beat his most prized deck via speed of the draw and pumping up my creatures accordingly with simple spells.

And yeah I actually just threw together my deck based on common sense and logic and when I looked up merfolk decks I was shocked to see I had the same general idea the only difference is I don't use Aether Vial only because it's too expensive money-wise. I would love to use Deprive though instead of my Mana Leak

I tried to give them tips on deck building 101 like the rule of nine, having a deck theme for synergy, having a focused strategy rather than a bunch of everything, and the importance of mana leak. They get it and only use those strategies to better use their more powerful cards yet again 

The only thing really I could suggest is try something different in your deck.  Instead of making aggro decks maybe try something like a control deck or a combo deck.  Other than that don't change for them, they need to learn how to make better decks.  Have you ever shown them this site? 

I once had a control deck. Plenty of counter spells, bouncing cards, and even cards that prevented thier creatures from doing anything Frozen Solid while only using basic creatures later in the game and stuff. I didn't quite like how it played out but I would win most games. It was considered 'cheap' because they didn't understand how you could gather up all that mana, savoring the moment, finally you get that super powerful card out that could ensure a defininte win and I use Cancel and all of a sudden that plan fails and all your mana wasted.

So I moved away from control and went for merfolk (mostly because I love merfolk in general not just in the game lol) and even still it's considered unfair because it's too fast for thier more powerful, higher CMC decks of 70+ cards -_- 

I edited my previous post (the one you quoted) with an exercise that may help. Check it out and let me know what you think. TLDR version: have everyone build mono color 60 card decks with nothing but commons, and play those against each other. you learn SO much playing the game this way.
I like the EDH suggestion best.  Perhaps modify it to where you are playing a singleton deck of 60 cards versus their piles o' fun.  You'll lose consistency, but other deckbuilding strategies (mana curve, functional reprints, adequate land and draw) can help compensate.

Are you duelling them or playing multiplayer matches?  I ask, because it not only dictates card recommendations, but also satisfies my curiousity.

Deconstructing their decks, are they running enough land?  For ages, I subscribed to the 1/3 land, 2/3 other rule of deckbuilding and was often mana-shorted.  Once I shifted to 40% of a deck being land, my games have improved in that regard.  I still lose, but it is NOT due to lack of appropriately-colored land!

Then again, perhaps offer to play one of their decks while they play yours.  It could be that their actually running a good deck would be enough to get them to accept the fact that if they cannot survive the first five turns, they will never get to cast those cool cards costing 6+ cmc.

Cheers!
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That sounds like a pretty cool deck idea :D (not my cup of tea though lol)

I wouldn't call them jerks... sore loser's is better. They make me feel like I gotta "dumn down" my deck to make things easier for them so that way they could use thier Exquisite Blood with Boon Reflection and Celestial Mantal with one of thier Ulamog's Crusher equipped to a Whispersilk Cloak and Eldrazi Conscription >.< while all I have are a few 1/1 creatures that don't do anything lol (and yes they tried that combo before)



You may not care for the idea but I'd suggest it to your friends. Its a solid deck that could be competative with your's, that's fun to play while lacking any Ultra combos that are nearly impossible to pull off.
I wouldn't call them jerks... sore loser's is better. They make me feel like I gotta "dumn down" my deck to make things easier for them so that way they could use thier Exquisite Blood with Boon Reflection and Celestial Mantle with one of thier Ulamog's Crusher equipped to a Whispersilk Cloak and Eldrazi Conscription >.< while all I have are a few 1/1 creatures that don't do anything lol (and yes they tried that combo before)


-_- Ok, if they're playing decks like that, no wonder they're losing. If they like big, nasty things to crush stuff with, try helping them build ramp decks, or something like that. If they like that kind of stuff, I bet they'd have fun with stuff like Thorn Elemental, Primeval Titan, and Vigor, covered by Asceticism

I recently discovered merfolk decks myself. It's so gratifying to finally have a deck with hardcore aggro, and still have disruption to protect myself.
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I wouldn't call them jerks... sore loser's is better. They make me feel like I gotta "dumn down" my deck to make things easier for them so that way they could use thier Exquisite Blood with Boon Reflection and Celestial Mantle with one of thier Ulamog's Crusher equipped to a Whispersilk Cloak and Eldrazi Conscription >.< while all I have are a few 1/1 creatures that don't do anything lol (and yes they tried that combo before)


-_- Ok, if they're playing decks like that, no wonder they're losing. If they like big, nasty things to crush stuff with, try helping them build ramp decks, or something like that. If they like that kind of stuff, I bet they'd have fun with stuff like Thorn Elemental, Primeval Titan, and Vigor, covered by Asceticism

I recently discovered merfolk decks myself. It's so gratifying to finally have a deck with hardcore aggro, and still have disruption to protect myself.

They would love to use cards like those lol.

I really enjoy using merfolk... a merfolk deck is definately my core style to use. Aggro/control and mono-blue. I've always wanted a blue deck since I started playing as a kid and now I have a really strong deck I built all by myself.

Maybe they should get a net deck??? Just so that they could have the satisfaction of being competable or something??? Idk...

A decade-ish ago, I had several friends who sounded similar to Sapphire's.  Well, a bit lower on the competitiveness, but similar in terms of deck desires.

Wizards had just come out for the first time with a special backed version of championship winning decks and they were tired of me beating them, so they each got one of those tourney winning decks...But then first thing they did was added cards to them and removed others.  After I beat them again, I asked if they'd tried out the things as is first.  They both said no, the decks looked so weak without big stuff in there. Tongue Out
They would love to use cards like those lol.

I really enjoy using merfolk... a merfolk deck is definately my core style to use. Aggro/control and mono-blue. I've always wanted a blue deck since I started playing as a kid and now I have a really strong deck I built all by myself.

Maybe they should get a net deck??? Just so that they could have the satisfaction of being competable or something??? Idk...



Best thing to do is just educate them on why their 6 card 30 something mana cost combo is a bad idea.

If they like big critters, introduce them to ramp strategies.

If they like big spells, show them how to build control to properly set up their game winning KABOOM.

I think there was a budgetish deck on Dailymtg.com not too long ago that had Sorin's Vengeance as it's win con. Doesn't get much splashier than that. Look for a deck called "ten you" or something to that effect.
They would love to use cards like those lol.

I really enjoy using merfolk... a merfolk deck is definately my core style to use. Aggro/control and mono-blue. I've always wanted a blue deck since I started playing as a kid and now I have a really strong deck I built all by myself.

Maybe they should get a net deck??? Just so that they could have the satisfaction of being competable or something??? Idk...



Best thing to do is just educate them on why their 6 card 30 something mana cost combo is a bad idea.

If they like big critters, introduce them to ramp strategies.

If they like big spells, show them how to build control to properly set up their game winning KABOOM.

I think there was a budgetish deck on Dailymtg.com not too long ago that had Sorin's Vengeance as it's win con. Doesn't get much splashier than that. Look for a deck called "ten you" or something to that effect.


www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.a...

This is the link to that page.  I too saw it, and I do love the way it looks.  I have actually debated on making it casual (rather than standard) and using some other ramp strategies or whatever.  It looks fun to "ten you"  
Well, I'd get them onto this forum. The forum's where I've learned most of what I know about deck-building. Your advice to them sounds good, but perhaps they'll take more notice of a whole forum trying to advise them. I and plenty of others here like building decks that run on synergies and combos, and can help them to make playable versions of the sorts of decks they want. If they absolutely refuse to be helped, then tell them to stop complaining when they lose. When I started playing Magic, my usual opponent had been playing for years with a dragon Sneak Attack deck that he'd been optimising for years. Obviously, I lost constantly, but rather than whine about it I learned how to build decks and play the game properly. I wouldn't have thought that it's really in the spirit of the thing for them to demand that you build decks specifically to let them beat you. It's up to them to improve.
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