Melee heavy dagger sorcerer?

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Hi all,

I'm new to 4e and D&D in general, but have been doing a lot of reading preparing for our first campaign.

I have a concept for a character brought about by reading the articles the shivs of sorcery and luckbenders in dragon which really has me wanting to play a wild magic sorcerer who fights close up, probably with sneak of shadows but little or no multiclassing past that. The idea of a character with pretty random spell effects swashbuckling his way into situations way over his head with only his luck getting him out in one piece sounds like great fun.

I'm concerned that this character may need a ton of feats to be at all viable and be very difficult to play at low level. I found one build on the wiki thread similar to what I'm thinking of, but several years old. I was thinking of going for luckbender or wild mage as a PP but am now thinking of something more along the lines of daggermaster or the like so i can actually get some use out of those blades. For race I was thinking of changeling, though human is tempting just for the extra feat.

You should know we have probably the most lax DM in existence with very loose rules. We'll probably be able to take 2 utility powers whenever we'd normally take one and also get free skill powers on top of that. We'll never have to worry about errata needing an ability and will always use the most powerful version published. If an ability fits in flavor but is underpowered he'll probably let us change it, especially if I can point to a guide that says the ability is weak. So feel free to alter abilities to fit your own idea of balance or suggest your own homebrew feats or powers or just make something up. Our DM really only cares about fun and has only the vaguest notion of balance (or even rules - luckily he's a hell of a story teller).

Also, although I'm mostly concerned about him holding up in combat, this campaign won't be combat focused, with lots of diplomacy/intrigue and roleplaying. If it would help to know more about the background of the campaign or character I can but i doubt its necessary - I'm really just looking for a sorcerer with a gambling streak and a lot of randomness who can hold up in melee and hopefully is still tactically interesting to play - dual wielding daggers is a plus if there's room for the feats but all ideas are welcome.

Thanks and sorry for the length.
There really is no other way to play an optimized Sorc except in melee. So.... no, you don't really need a lot of feats and yes it is perfectly viable.

Any Cha/Dex race will work, though I prefer Halfing.
I play one of these in my ongoing campaign. Storm Sorcs work better for this because of Lightning Fury, but Wild should still work well.

Daggermaster is Rogue powers only. That used to be a devastating build, now it's unusable.

Flame Spiral, Lightning Cuts, and Spark Form are your best friends, learn to love them.

Featwise you won't be too strapped for feat room.

Changeling has no support, human isn't necessary. There are a lot of CHA/DEX races to choose from, so the sky's the limit there. Drow and Revenant are notable.

Primordial Channeler seems to be the strongest of the Wild Mage-centric PPs. You have a few other good options too.

Daggermaster is Rogue powers only. That used to be a devastating build, now it's unusable.


One abusive build in a WotC work game ruined that one.  They made Luckbender as a "replacement," but it's not nearly as good as I recall.
Thanks all. Luckily with my DM we never worry about errata, so I can still use daggermaster and any other ability in its original form.

I had read in some places that the STR based sorcerers were built for melee while the DEX sorcerers didn't handle it well but I guess that was incorrect. I noticed the near total lack of feat support for changelings but one would fit in the campaign well and it works for the back story I have planned so decided to go for it. Because of the nature of the campaign we're trying to keep everyone a separate race and we already have a halfling. I'm not too much of a halfling fan anyway, though their racial ability would fit thematically. Drow was my second choice and I still may go that route.

Would it be wise to take any two weapon fighting feats? It seems that would go well with dual implement expertise and sorcerous blade channeling. Mastery of knives also seems like a decent choice.

Are there any power/feat combos people would recommend? Something along the lines of unlucky teleportation combined with a lot of teleportation powers, though this example doesn't fit the idea I have of the character in my head. It seemed like there were a few other similar choices, like combining ongoing damage with a feat that did more damage to enemies suffering that condition and an almost identical combination except with slowed or weakened with a synergistic feat. Excuse my lack of recall, I'm very new to the game and have read a huge amount over the last few weeks (every campaign for every game I've ever tried to play has quickly degenerated, often due to a lack of planning and preparation -I'm trying to make this one work).

Also I don't need the character to be completely optimized for for and the like, but rather optimized for fun. I'll take a somewhat inferior ability if its fun enough to play. I'm interested in a lot of the luck/gambling powers or feats or any feat that simulates or feels like luck. Unfortunately many of the abilities, especially the feats that fit that description are underpowered even for my non discerning tastes. If anyone knows worthwhile luck/gambling feats or powers of which most seem to be in the wild magic sections or abilities fitting a character that could be described as being swashbuckling or having a deathwish please let me know. And like i said my DM is very lenient so if there's an underpowered ability that you think should be augmented feel free to tell me what you think the power SHOULD be. My DM will almost certainly let me use it. But again I'm not looking to be overpowered, I'll settle for fun and mediocre

Thanks again for all your help.
Thanks all. Luckily with my DM we never worry about errata, so I can still use daggermaster and any other ability in its original form.

I had read in some places that the STR based sorcerers were built for melee while the DEX sorcerers didn't handle it well but I guess that was incorrect. I noticed the near total lack of feat support for changelings but one would fit in the campaign well and it works for the back story I have planned so decided to go for it. Because of the nature of the campaign we're trying to keep everyone a separate race and we already have a halfling. I'm not too much of a halfling fan anyway, though their racial ability would fit thematically. Drow was my second choice and I still may go that route.

Would it be wise to take any two weapon fighting feats? It seems that would go well with dual implement expertise and sorcerous blade channeling. Mastery of knives also seems like a decent choice.

Are there any power/feat combos people would recommend? Something along the lines of unlucky teleportation combined with a lot of teleportation powers, though this example doesn't fit the idea I have of the character in my head. It seemed like there were a few other similar choices, like combining ongoing damage with a feat that did more damage to enemies suffering that condition and an almost identical combination except with slowed or weakened with a synergistic feat. Excuse my lack of recall, I'm very new to the game and have read a huge amount over the last few weeks (every campaign for every game I've ever tried to play has quickly degenerated, often due to a lack of planning and preparation -I'm trying to make this one work).

Also I don't need the character to be completely optimized for for and the like, but rather optimized for fun. I'll take a somewhat inferior ability if its fun enough to play. I'm interested in a lot of the luck/gambling powers or feats or any feat that simulates or feels like luck. Unfortunately many of the abilities, especially the feats that fit that description are underpowered even for my non discerning tastes. If anyone knows worthwhile luck/gambling feats or powers of which most seem to be in the wild magic sections or abilities fitting a character that could be described as being swashbuckling or having a deathwish please let me know. And like i said my DM is very lenient so if there's an underpowered ability that you think should be augmented feel free to tell me what you think the power SHOULD be. My DM will almost certainly let me use it. But again I'm not looking to be overpowered, I'll settle for fun and mediocre

Thanks again for all your help.

If you really like a luck based build, you could try a chaos bolt/lightning cuts build.

Use the following feats:
-dual implement caster
-staff expertise
-white lotus riposte
-master white lotus riposte (paragon tier feat)
 (optional): wild spellfury (paragon tier feat)

Along with a battle harnass for your magic armor slot.

Basically, you walk adjacent to an enemy, then chaos bolt, and as a minor, lightning cuts. Maximize your to hit bonusses. As long as you keep hitting (and rolling even), chaos bolt keeps jumping targets. For each target you hit, all enemies adjacent to you take your dexterity mod in extra damage. If any of the targets you hit attack you during the next round, white lotus master reposte allows you to recast chaos bolt on that target.

Lightning cuts is a minor finisher. Use battle harness and items like power jewel and salve of power to recharge lightning cuts as a minor action whenever you start adjacent to a target.

Maybe not highly powerful, but very fun and I really like playing it.
Thanks, the feats you mentioned are pretty much what I was thinking so I seem to be on the right track. Why staff expertise though? I was under the impression that with dual implement expertise I could use a dagger in each hand getting the bonus for both and I'd never need to use a staff. Do I misunderstand or is there an advantage to using staffs as well that I'm not aware of?

I'll have to read up on the items you mentioned - in all the reading I've done I pretty much skipped gear and always forget its importance in optimization. I'm not much for loot usually and am hoping I can use some of the alternative rewards like grandmaster training to fill some gaps.

One thing I forgot to ask about is themes. Are there any that you could see complementing this concept, particularly the dagger part, but I'd be interested in a theme related to wild magic/luck or just swashbuckling in general. BTW can no one search for themes in the compendium or is it just a glitch since I've been using my cell phone. It seems bizarre that you can search for poisons and other rather obscure things but not themes. Is there a list of all of them somewhere?

Finally, since my DM is letting us select 2 utility powers when we'd normally get one and I'm taking the basic rogue multiclass feat does anyone have suggestions for utility powers for the rogue that would work well with a sorcerer or just with the character concept in general? We'll also probably be getting some free skill powers so knowing the best of those for this build would be helpful too.

If there are articles in dragon that would be easier to point to than answer in depth I'd love to read them. I think I found most of what's directly useful yo me but the search function seems a little touchy sometimes.

Thanks again for the advice and I hope these questions aren't too newbish. I tried to do a bit of reading before coming here, but there's theoretical, armchair theorizing can't compare to direct experience after a certain point.
Reasons for carrying a staff with staff expertise:
a) staff enchants (staff of ruin comes to mind)
b) staff expertise means no provoking opportunity attacks when casting ranged (or area) spells (like chaos bolt)


Also staff expertise increases reach with the staff by 1, potentially giving you a longer range melee option (but you'd  have to drop the dagger, I think, or otherwise stow it.)
Thanks, the feats you mentioned are pretty much what I was thinking so I seem to be on the right track. Why staff expertise though? I was under the impression that with dual implement expertise I could use a dagger in each hand getting the bonus for both and I'd never need to use a staff. Do I misunderstand or is there an advantage to using staffs as well that I'm not aware of? I'll have to read up on the items you mentioned - in all the reading I've done I pretty much skipped gear and always forget its importance in optimization. I'm not much for loot usually and am hoping I can use some of the alternative rewards like grandmaster training to fill some gaps. One thing I forgot to ask about is themes. Are there any that you could see complementing this concept, particularly the dagger part, but I'd be interested in a theme related to wild magic/luck or just swashbuckling in general. BTW can no one search for themes in the compendium or is it just a glitch since I've been using my cell phone. It seems bizarre that you can search for poisons and other rather obscure things but not themes. Is there a list of all of them somewhere? Finally, since my DM is letting us select 2 utility powers when we'd normally get one and I'm taking the basic rogue multiclass feat does anyone have suggestions for utility powers for the rogue that would work well with a sorcerer or just with the character concept in general? We'll also probably be getting some free skill powers so knowing the best of those for this build would be helpful too. If there are articles in dragon that would be easier to point to than answer in depth I'd love to read them. I think I found most of what's directly useful yo me but the search function seems a little touchy sometimes. Thanks again for the advice and I hope these questions aren't too newbish. I tried to do a bit of reading before coming here, but there's theoretical, armchair theorizing can't compare to direct experience after a certain point.



You might want to look at the sorceror handbook for general advice on gear, or armisael's compendium of magic items.

To clarify: the build I'm mentioning has the goal of both casting a standard action attack each turn and a minor action lightning cuts follow up once to twice each combat. This is something else from pure melee, but attacking twice roughly half of your turns in conjunction with using the sorcerer's attacks that hit multple targets is quite powerful. The minor action lightning cuts is melee only and enables the second attack, forcing you into melee to get the most damage.

To go over your questions briefly:

-Casting chaos bolt is a ranged attack. Unless you use staff expertise, you provoke attacks of opportunity from everyone around you. You could also wear a certain armor to prevent provoking attacks, but I believe the battle harness is a better one. You use the off-hand for making melee basic attacks and lightning cuts, and the staff for everything else.

-Using a staff allows you to take the staff of ruin as an implement, which adds more damage to all your attacks. You could use a jagged dagger as a main hand, but you'd lose out on guaranteed damage on all your attacks and lose the ability to recharge lightning cuts as a minor via your armor and woundrous items (you need the armor that prevents attacks of oppotuniry then, see above).

-The only items you really need to make this work are the battle harnass, a power jewel and a salve of power. It allows two minor action recharges of lightning cuts per day.

-There is only one theme that supports this well; devil's pawn. The minor action encounter power is both free damage, lowering of enemy defenses and lowering enemy attacks if they stay in your aura.

-I don't understand what you mean by utilities. Do you mean that you get multiple multiclass feats for free instead of one? If so, there are a number of generic damage increasing multiclass feats a sorceror could grab easily: sneak of shadows (rogue), warrior of the wild (ranger), bravo training (bravo), and walker of the dark path (blackguard). The last one doesn't add as much damage as the others, but adds a defensive utility once per day and gives access to a holy symbol (use symbol of victory), which grants an additional action point every day if you crit at least once. I use the last option.

Putting it all together, this is a character builder summary of the build i'm using. Everything is geared towards using multi-attacking spells along with lightning cuts as much as possible, except for perhaps the race (pure damage would prefer drow). I just like the secrets of Belial feat, exclusive to tieflings. If you're looking for advice on what items/powers to pick or w/e, these are pretty good options.

Show



====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======


Evan, level 16


Tiefling, Sorcerer, Demonskin Adept


Build: Chaos Sorcerer


Spell Source Option: Wild Magic


Luskan (Luskan Benefit)


Theme: Devil's Pawn


 


FINAL ABILITY SCORES


STR 9, CON 16, DEX 20, INT 12, WIS 11, CHA 22


 


STARTING ABILITY SCORES


STR 8, CON 13, DEX 16, INT 11, WIS 10, CHA 16


 


 


AC: 28 Fort: 26 Ref: 29 Will: 32


HP: 103 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 25


 


TRAINED SKILLS


Arcana +14, Endurance +16, Intimidate +19, Stealth +21, Thievery +19


 


UNTRAINED SKILLS


Acrobatics +13, Athletics +7, Bluff +16, Diplomacy +14, Dungeoneering +8, Heal +8, History +9, Insight +8, Nature +8, Perception +8, Religion +9, Streetwise +14


 


POWERS


Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack


Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack


Devil's Pawn Attack: Hellfire and Brimstone


Tiefling Racial Power: Infernal Wrath


Paladin Utility: Shroud of Shadow


Sorcerer Attack 1: Chaos Bolt


Sorcerer Attack 1: Ensorcelled Blade


Sorcerer Utility 2: Focused Chaos


Sorcerer Attack 3: Flame Spiral


Sorcerer Attack 3: Lightning Cuts


Sorcerer Attack 5: Thunder Leap


Sorcerer Utility 6: Sudden Scales


Sorcerer Attack 9: Winds of Change


Sorcerer Utility 10: Maiden's Waking


Druid Utility 10: Feywild Sojourn


Demonskin Adept Attack 11: Demon-Soul Bolts


Sorcerer Attack 13: Chains of Fire


Sorcerer Attack 15: Lightning Daggers


Sorcerer Utility 16: Dominant Winds


 


FEATS


Level 1: Staff Expertise


Level 2: Dual Implement Spellcaster


Level 4: Armor Proficiency: Leather


Level 6: Implement Focus (Staff)


Level 8: Walker of the Dark Path


Level 10: White Lotus Riposte


Level 11: White Lotus Master Riposte


Level 12: Secrets of Belial


Level 14: Improved Defenses


Level 16: Wild Spellfury


 


ITEMS


Magic Dagger +3 x1


Bracers of Escape (heroic tier) x1


Boots of the Fencing Master x1


Circlet of Mental Onslaught x1


Power Jewel


Salve of Power


Demonbound (level 8)


Adventurer's Kit


Thieves' Tools


Footpads


Accurate staff of Ruin +3 x1


Siberys Shard of the Mage (paragon tier)


Backlash Tattoo x1


Gauntlets of Blood (paragon tier) x1


Battle Harness Drowmesh +3 x1


Symbol of Victory +2 x1


Raven Cloak +3 x1


====== End ======







Good luck building your character!
Actually since Lightning Cuts requires a dagger and there is a good Expertise feat for Light/Heavy blades as Implements now, I'd just wear the armor to avoid OAs. It will be more difficult to get an item bonus to damage, except his DM ignores any errata that makes things weaker. Old Staff of Ruin worked in the off-hand with DIS. And old TWF applied to Implement attacks as well as weapon ones. Really, with the houserule that "errata that made things weaker is ignored" the handbook isn't going to help him much.

@OP

You generally get a better response when you post a build and ask for critiques. So:

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

That is the really old Sorc handbook, which predates most errata. But it doesn't have themes (they didn't exist) and some other things. For anything it doesn't have, consult the current handbook.

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Which is there.

I'd only post it up to Paragon, if you're starting at level 1.
Thanks everybody! I did read multiple guides but skipped over the gear sections - I didn't think it would matter for the build nearly as much. I'm not sure how to create the fancy looking builds people make - I assume you use the online character builder but unfortunately my internet is messed up at home and it won't work on my cell phone (the character builder requires Microsoft starlight which I don't think works on cell phone OS's).

The info on staffs was helpful (and all the equipment, really shouldn't have skipped over that) I didn't realize they had so many advantages. I was planning on getting sorcerous blade channeling to avoid OAs and get mastery of knives and some two weapon feats so I could dual wield a Munro and Katar. The advantage in reach of the staff makes me hesitate, but unless using a staff is overwhelmingly better I'll probably still go the dagger route - it just seems to have more flavor and panache to it.

And by utilities, I just meant the standard abilities - at-wills, encounters, utilities and dailies. Since a lot of the campaign will be out of combat and since the utility powers are often the most "fun" our DM is letting us pick 2 instead of 1 each level we'd get 1. Since I'm taking sneak of shadows I'll be able to take both sorcerer and rogue utility powers without any power swaps or feat costs (our DM is very loose in his interpretation of rules). So I was wondering if there were any rogue utility powers that have synergy with any sorcerer abilities. And also what people generally think the best skill powers for both rogues and sorcerers are as we'll be getting some of those automatically as well. I don't recall seeing anything in the sorcerer guides I read on skill powers but I may have missed it.

I'll try to type up the basic build at least until level 11 but it may look a bit messy without access to the character builder - maybe I'll go to a friend's house or use my work computer to do it. I have a good idea of what feats I want (mostly) but I'm not sure the best order to take them in which seems like an art in itself.

Thanks again!
Thanks everybody! I did read multiple guides but skipped over the gear sections - I didn't think it would matter for the build nearly as much. I'm not sure how to create the fancy looking builds people make - I assume you use the online character builder but unfortunately my internet is messed up at home and it won't work on my cell phone (the character builder requires Microsoft starlight which I don't think works on cell phone OS's).

The info on staffs was helpful (and all the equipment, really shouldn't have skipped over that) I didn't realize they had so many advantages. I was planning on getting sorcerous blade channeling to avoid OAs and get mastery of knives and some two weapon feats so I could dual wield a Munro and Katar. The advantage in reach of the staff makes me hesitate, but unless using a staff is overwhelmingly better I'll probably still go the dagger route - it just seems to have more flavor and panache to it.

And by utilities, I just meant the standard abilities - at-wills, encounters, utilities and dailies. Since a lot of the campaign will be out of combat and since the utility powers are often the most "fun" our DM is letting us pick 2 instead of 1 each level we'd get 1. Since I'm taking sneak of shadows I'll be able to take both sorcerer and rogue utility powers without any power swaps or feat costs (our DM is very loose in his interpretation of rules). So I was wondering if there were any rogue utility powers that have synergy with any sorcerer abilities. And also what people generally think the best skill powers for both rogues and sorcerers are as we'll be getting some of those automatically as well. I don't recall seeing anything in the sorcerer guides I read on skill powers but I may have missed it.

I'll try to type up the basic build at least until level 11 but it may look a bit messy without access to the character builder - maybe I'll go to a friend's house or use my work computer to do it. I have a good idea of what feats I want (mostly) but I'm not sure the best order to take them in which seems like an art in itself.

Thanks again!
Thanks everybody! I did read multiple guides but skipped over the gear sections - I didn't think it would matter for the build nearly as much. I'm not sure how to create the fancy looking builds people make - I assume you use the online character builder but unfortunately my internet is messed up at home and it won't work on my cell phone (the character builder requires Microsoft starlight which I don't think works on cell phone OS's).

The info on staffs was helpful (and all the equipment, really shouldn't have skipped over that) I didn't realize they had so many advantages. I was planning on getting sorcerous blade channeling to avoid OAs and get mastery of knives and some two weapon feats so I could dual wield a Munro and Katar. The advantage in reach of the staff makes me hesitate, but unless using a staff is overwhelmingly better I'll probably still go the dagger route - it just seems to have more flavor and panache to it.

And by utilities, I just meant the standard abilities - at-wills, encounters, utilities and dailies. Since a lot of the campaign will be out of combat and since the utility powers are often the most "fun" our DM is letting us pick 2 instead of 1 each level we'd get 1. Since I'm taking sneak of shadows I'll be able to take both sorcerer and rogue utility powers without any power swaps or feat costs (our DM is very loose in his interpretation of rules). So I was wondering if there were any rogue utility powers that have synergy with any sorcerer abilities. And also what people generally think the best skill powers for both rogues and sorcerers are as we'll be getting some of those automatically as well. I don't recall seeing anything in the sorcerer guides I read on skill powers but I may have missed it.

I'll try to type up the basic build at least until level 11 but it may look a bit messy without access to the character builder - maybe I'll go to a friend's house or use my work computer to do it. I have a good idea of what feats I want (mostly) but I'm not sure the best order to take them in which seems like an art in itself.

Thanks again!

I'd be a bit wary of picking two combat related utilities if you get the second one specifically for fun or for an out of combat encounter, which seems to be the intent. However, what you;re probably looking for if you are a chaos sorceror is focused chaos.

The handbook does have a section on skill powers. The best one is at lvl 16, which is insightful reposte. Generally, before that it's better to take class utilities.
Oops, sorry for the double post. I just wanted to thank lunattic for posting that build. There were a lot of good powers I hadn't noted before and while I had noted lightning cuts since sorcerers seem to be low on minor action attacks I'd forgotten the name and where I saw it.

I'll have to look up all of those items and read up on items in general which I usually find a little boring. If there's grandmaster training already created that could take the place of some slots I'd appreciate it being pointed out - seems a difficult thing to search for. If there isn't any that fits maybe I can get my DM to create some.

Its kind of sad that devil's pawn is the best theme there is. It doesn't really fit thematically and is obviously intended for warlocks, though that first power is good for melee. I'm surprised there isn't something like knife-fighter or duellist. It really is annoying you can't select themes in the compendium, leave the entry space blank and search so you can see a complete list of them.
Oops, sorry for the double post. I just wanted to thank lunattic for posting that build. There were a lot of good powers I hadn't noted before and while I had noted lightning cuts since sorcerers seem to be low on minor action attacks I'd forgotten the name and where I saw it. I'll have to look up all of those items and read up on items in general which I usually find a little boring. If there's grandmaster training already created that could take the place of some slots I'd appreciate it being pointed out - seems a difficult thing to search for. If there isn't any that fits maybe I can get my DM to create some. Its kind of sad that devil's pawn is the best theme there is. It doesn't really fit thematically and is obviously intended for warlocks, though that first power is good for melee. I'm surprised there isn't something like knife-fighter or duellist. It really is annoying you can't select themes in the compendium, leave the entry space blank and search so you can see a complete list of them.



If you want something melee-oriented that might be easier to fluff, try guardian as a theme, or ironwrought. Guardian might work well since it gives one extra ensorcerlated blade attack as a melee basic, though it does require you to take a hit for someone else each time. Reflavoring devil''s pawn so that the aura is just a burst of magic that throws everyone near you off-balance might also work.
Oops, sorry for the double post. I just wanted to thank lunattic for posting that build. There were a lot of good powers I hadn't noted before and while I had noted lightning cuts since sorcerers seem to be low on minor action attacks I'd forgotten the name and where I saw it. I'll have to look up all of those items and read up on items in general which I usually find a little boring. If there's grandmaster training already created that could take the place of some slots I'd appreciate it being pointed out - seems a difficult thing to search for. If there isn't any that fits maybe I can get my DM to create some. Its kind of sad that devil's pawn is the best theme there is. It doesn't really fit thematically and is obviously intended for warlocks, though that first power is good for melee. I'm surprised there isn't something like knife-fighter or duellist. It really is annoying you can't select themes in the compendium, leave the entry space blank and search so you can see a complete list of them.



If you want something melee-oriented that might be easier to fluff, try guardian as a theme, or ironwrought. Guardian might work well since it gives one extra ensorcerlated blade attack as a melee basic, though it does require you to take a hit for someone else each time. Reflavoring devil''s pawn so that the aura is just a burst of magic that throws everyone near you off-balance might also work.


Just use the counter at the most opportune time. Swap places when the attack would result in a miss on your sorcerer saving both your bacons and bringing some pain to the offender.
I've been looking into building a Drow Storm Sorcerer who stabs people as well, but I found out yesterday someone else in the party is going TacLord with attack enabling. What at wills should I take? Blazing Starfall (with Resounding Thunder), Lightning Strike (for lightning cheese) and the Sorcerer Melee Basic Atack power (I forgot the name) all look good, but I only get two at-wills. My DM is one of those people who thinks magic items should be totally random and extremely rare, so getting a specific item to fix this is not going to be an option. Thoughts?
I've been looking into building a Drow Storm Sorcerer who stabs people as well, but I found out yesterday someone else in the party is going TacLord with attack enabling. What at wills should I take? Blazing Starfall (with Resounding Thunder), Lightning Strike (for lightning cheese) and the Sorcerer Melee Basic Atack power (I forgot the name) all look good, but I only get two at-wills. My DM is one of those people who thinks magic items should be totally random and extremely rare, so getting a specific item to fix this is not going to be an option. Thoughts?



I guess that depends on the level and whether your taclord has a lot of party-rearrangement. I encountered a similar issue with my level 24 warlord; while the warlock had a MBA, it was virtually impossible to grant him attacks since everyone was constantly spread out, but it became a lot easier when he changed it to a ranged basic atack.

That said, blazing starfall with resounding thunder should probably be your go-to at-will, and depending on how many basic attacks you get each combat you might want to take either acid orb or ensorcelated blade instead of lightning strike. In a vacuum, ensorcelated blase is probably better as it lets you take attacks of opportunity, which happens a lot for my chaos bolt/lightning cuts sorceror. However, granting you melee basic attacks, especially from the level 17 warlord hail of stell power, will require repositioning powers from your warlord to make it as effective as acid orb.
I've been looking into building a Drow Storm Sorcerer who stabs people as well, but I found out yesterday someone else in the party is going TacLord with attack enabling. What at wills should I take? Blazing Starfall (with Resounding Thunder), Lightning Strike (for lightning cheese) and the Sorcerer Melee Basic Atack power (I forgot the name) all look good, but I only get two at-wills. My DM is one of those people who thinks magic items should be totally random and extremely rare, so getting a specific item to fix this is not going to be an option. Thoughts?

Ensorcelled Blade+Blazing Starfall. The things that Warlords do to enable RBAs aren't quite as good. Plus in melee you want the MBA for OAs.
If you are going storm, make sure to look into a lancing dagger implement.  Getting an additional bonus to damage that is not a magic item would really help you. 

And if you are not getting magic items often, are you using inherent bonuses?  Because iirc, the math for this game is based on you getting some magic or using inherent bonuses.  Without one or the other, you will fall behind the monsters.
If you are going storm, make sure to look into a lancing dagger implement.  Getting an additional bonus to damage that is not a magic item would really help you. 

And if you are not getting magic items often, are you using inherent bonuses?  Because iirc, the math for this game is based on you getting some magic or using inherent bonuses.  Without one or the other, you will fall behind the monsters.



We'll be getting inherent bonuses, yes. I'm trying to convince my GM to give us inherent item damage bonuses as well. The ability for us to make our our stuff will be really limited. As it was, in our previous campaign I had to play from level 1 to 6 without a magic staff. Now he wants to make it so that treasure is 'favours' that can be turned in for stuff, but he wants to veto all the 'boring' magic items, like Staff of Ruin, Iron Armbands of Power, and anything that gives a damage bonus.

How important is lightning cheese to a storm sorcerer? It's just one or two feats, right?
A lancing dagger is not a magic item.  It is a superior implement.  There is a very big difference between them.  You do need to spend a feat to be able to use a lancing dagger but it is one of the better ones you can get as a storm sorcerer with only the accurate one being better.
Lancing dagger would seem better in this case as accurate dagger doesn't work with weapon (non implement) attacks, so won't work with a portion of his attacks (like Enscorselled blade).
Eh, even if it's only a +1 on some of your attacks, a +1 on Flame Spiral, Furious Bolts, Lightning Daggers, etc. isn't to be underestimated. I like Accurate better than Lancing even if you are going melee heavy.
A Lancing Dagger is a superior implement just like an accurate dagger... so its damage bonus only works on implement powers.   So +1 to hit with a few powers, vs +2/3/4 damage with a few powers. 
Ours is a world where people don't know what they want, and are willing to go through hell to get it. -Don Marquis
Lancing dagger would seem better in this case as accurate dagger doesn't work with weapon (non implement) attacks, so won't work with a portion of his attacks (like Enscorselled blade).

Um, no Superior Implement properties work on non-implement attacks, so no difference there... But the weapon attacks are still more accurate in any case, as they are Weapon attacks vs a NAD. You get +3 Prof from the dagger, after all. Think of how and why MBA builds value Deft Spear and the like.
Ok sure, we'll ignore the rules text then.
Accurate: You gain a +1 bonus to implement attack rolls made with an accurate implement. 
-Not attacks made with an implement (like a weapliment), but specifically implement attack rolls.

Energized: When you use an implement attack power with an energized implement, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls if the power has a keyword that matches the implement’s damage type. The bonus increases to +3 at 11th level and +4 at 21st level.
   
-Again, same wording.  In fact every single property that superior implements can have (Accurate, Deadly, Distant, Empowered Crit, Energized, Forceful, Shielding, undeniable, Unerring, Unstoppable) all mention implement attack rolls or implement attack powers.

Or heck, we go to the rulebook these superior implements were orginally printed in (Player's Handbook 3) on page 195, it specifically states: A superior implement's properties apply only to attacks made with the implement. They only affect implement powers, even if an implement can be used to make weapon attacks. The wording was changed in Mordenkainen Magnificent Emporium to place the 'implement attack X' part in the definition of every property, as opposed to prefacing the whole section on the properties.
Ours is a world where people don't know what they want, and are willing to go through hell to get it. -Don Marquis
I assume you're replying to me, except you're agreeing with me so... not sure why the animosity. ^.^

Correct parsing of sentence "No Superior Implement properties work on non-implement attacks."

What I am guessing is your parsing of the sentence "No, Superior Implement work on non-implement attacks."

Since what I wrote lacked a comma, and hence makes what I believe was your parsing wrong in the reading, I assume we can move on?

I am somewhat noted for abiding by strict RAW incidentally, ignoring rules text is just simply something I do not do.
I think I am gonna go with Firebug on this one...

Infernis
Yep, you are right, I mistook your comment and I appologize for that little bit of animosity.  I thought it was weird that you would go against RAW there (though I can barely see a glimmer with 'since they changed format of the rules in MME, and made it murkier with regard to weapliments').
I blame summer classes, and using these forums as a break from studying German.  Its all Greek to me anyway... 
Ours is a world where people don't know what they want, and are willing to go through hell to get it. -Don Marquis
I may be missing something is all.

The compendium just says attack power for lancing dagger
But then it also says the same for accurate dagger and that is clearly for implement attacks only.

Well here is what the Comp says.

From the compendium (emphasis mine)

(Lancing Dagger properties)
Properties:
Light Thrown (A basic attack with a light thrown weapon uses your Dexterity. Light thrown weapons don’t deal as much damage as heavy thrown weapons, but some powers let you hurl several of them at once or in rapid succession.).
Off-Hand (An off-hand weapon is light enough that you can hold it and attack effectively with it while holding a weapon in your main hand. You can’t attack with both weapons in the same turn, unless you have a power that lets you do so, but you can attack with either weapon.).
Empowered Crit (When you score a critical hit with an empowered crit implement, the attack deals 1d10 extra damage. The extra damage increases to 2d10 at 11th level and 3d10 at 21st level.).
Energized (lightning) (When you use an attack power through an energized implement, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls if the power has the keyword that matches the implement’s damage type. The bonus increases to +3 at 11th level and +4 at 21st level.).

(Accurate dagger properties
Properties:
Light Thrown (A basic attack with a light thrown weapon uses your Dexterity. Light thrown weapons don’t deal as much damage as heavy thrown weapons, but some powers let you hurl several of them at once or in rapid succession.).
Off-Hand (An off-hand weapon is light enough that you can hold it and attack effectively with it while holding a weapon in your main hand. You can’t attack with both weapons in the same turn, unless you have a power that lets you do so, but you can attack with either weapon.).
Accurate (You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls made with an accurate implement.).



I know sometimes folks cut/paste compendium rules as if to say "F-U I told you so."
This is not my intention, just honestly curious about the wording.
The Compendium is not a rules source. It is a mostly accurate reference. The PHB3 has the general rules for Superior Implements, which are reproduced nowhere in the Compendium, and one of them is that Superior Implement properties apply only to Implement attacks. Period.

MME also changed the wording of each Superior Implement to include that caveat, though that updated wording never made it into the Compendium (which is another reason the Comependium is not a rules source). 
Or more accurately perhaps, if you look up the terms "Empowered crit" and "Energized" in the glossary section of the compendium (which you are quoting from, the online version), you see the full rules text for those terms.  The italisized and parathenisized rules text on the Lancing Dagger and any other superior implement are just 'reminder texts'.
Here is the glossary section in the compendium:

Empowered Crit: When you score a critical hit with an implement attack using an empowered crit implement, the attack deals 1d10 extra damage (this damage is not maximized). The extra damage increases to 2d10 at 11th level and 3d10 at 21st level.

Energized: When you use an implement attack power with an energized implement, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls if the power has a keyword that matches the implement’s damage type. The bonus increases to +3 at 11th level and +4 at 21st level. 

Emphasis mine.
Ours is a world where people don't know what they want, and are willing to go through hell to get it. -Don Marquis