Please, for the love of all that's holy, don't kill OCB.

This is so far my greatest concern when it comes to D&D Next. I can get behind the fact that Wizards are unlikely to continue publishing materials for older editions, which 4e would become once Next hits. But, as it was until now, people who were unwilling to switch to the new edition, could simply continue playing the old ones, as the books didn't go anywhere. I myself ran quite a few 3.5 games since 4 came out, and even one AD&D game for nostalgia's sake.

But, 4ed is slightly different in this case. The ammount of options is almost impossible to track, even when having all physical books, without a good tool. I can't imagine running my players without OCB at this point - and I'm really worried that when Next comes out, the tool would be removed.

OCB is the only reason I'm subscribed to DDI right now. I quite possibly spent more on DDI sub than on all 4e books that I have alltogether. I am willing to keep paying sub for it, just PLEASE, don't get rid of it. 
+1 I don't think this is a concern.  But I will add my support, as 4e really can't function at the same capacity without the Character Builder.  It's a hugely important part of the game.
Please collect and update the DND Next Community Wiki Page with your ideas and suggestions!
Take a look at my clarified ability scores And also my Houserules relevent to DNDNext
ill pay double if they keep it up!
Eh, if they shut it down, it'll just cause people to pirate the Offline CB and use mods to keep it up to date............or so I hear.
I honestly don't want to have to pirate it. I sincerely hope the demand for it will be high enough so that they actually maintain it. I don't see it being too expensive, considering that they won't have to update it, just keep it running.

By the way, I heard somewhere that MS was going to stop supporting Silverlight. That would be a bummer. 
I honestly don't want to have to pirate it.


This is the sort of sentiment that really needs to be noticed.  When the pirates are on the verge of providing better service than your company, that should be a wakeup call.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I honestly don't want to have to pirate it.

This is the sort of sentiment that really needs to be noticed.  When the pirates are on the verge of providing better service than your company, that should be a wakeup call.

It is well beyond verge from what I've heard. I have a friend who noted the 3rd party efforts were significantly faster at providing updates that WotC. I really hope any and all 5e electronic tools are better managed.

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
Please let me give you money. Keep the online CB!
"So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been." - Manwë, High King of the Valar
They will likely shut it down a few months after 5E is published, in a vain attempt to 'force' people to upgrade to the new system. All this will do is push people that might have tried 5E into the 'never gonna touch it' camp...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
It will stay up as long as it brings in enough money to warrent keeping it up. 
It will stay up as long as it brings in enough money to warrent keeping it up. 



I disagree.  It's more complicated than that.  I also don't wish to see the char-builder taken down, but I am virtually certain it will be.  I strongly suspect that Wotc within a very short period (month or two) of 5e's release are going to be desperate to try to show as many people buying that as possible, and as such they will try to force the 4e people to 'upgrade'.  The most potent way they can do that is to kill the 4e char-gen, and so I expect they will.  It's about making sales targets.

-Polaris
I have little hope the current OCB will survive in the next edition. I'd love it to, but comes DDN, 4E becomes a competitor. Any attrition preventing players from moving on to the new edition will have to be removed. 
Of course some will resort to 'non-official tools' instead, but most won't bother and will just switch to Next, as the path of least resistance. 
It will stay up as long as it brings in enough money to warrent keeping it up. 



I disagree.  It's more complicated than that.  I also don't wish to see the char-builder taken down, but I am virtually certain it will be.  I strongly suspect that Wotc within a very short period (month or two) of 5e's release are going to be desperate to try to show as many people buying that as possible, and as such they will try to force the 4e people to 'upgrade'.  The most potent way they can do that is to kill the 4e char-gen, and so I expect they will.  It's about making sales targets.

-Polaris



You say it's more complcated than that, but you don't really say why or how or give details. 

No, it's not that complicated. Should the OCB continue to make enough money to keep it up, they will keep it up. When it doesn't, they will close it down. Take the VT, it didn't generate enough interest, and even though it was going to be part of the current subscription of DDI, they shut it down. Why pay people money to keep working on maintaining something that no one is really using? Better to put the money used to pay them to do that towards something else. 

Actually, it's probably even simplier. They will just close it down and move on. Lets face it, DDi was a failure. Regardless of what worked, it still was a failure, because it just didn't live up to what it needed to be to make it worthwhile.

In this day and age, with all that we can do with computers and apps, the online tools were really substandard in delivering what many customers really wanted.

So...bye OCB.  
Dane,

We seem to agree in what will happen but not why and I think why is important.  You seem to think "Does it make money" is the bottom end line concern, and it's not.  Even if something makes money, if it doesn't make enough money in the right category, it will be canned.

The Bottom Line is I don't see Wotc continuing anything that in their minds will "compete" with 5e when it is published, including the 4E OCB.

-Polaris
Uh, I played 4e for several years, and I've never had a subscription.  I have no idea what the OCB looks like and I functioned just fine.
Pfah. This is all you need.
Pfah. This is all you need.



This is worthless for 4e at least without a lot of work that I don't see anyone doing.

-Polaris
   Keeping OCB is distinctly iffy, but that means it may or may continue.  So we can still hope at least.
    True, many of us are not optimistic about 5e's chances, and if any of WOTC brass panics and says "we have got to something to increase 5e sales", shutting down OCB is an obvious tactic.  No doubt about it.  But that will only happen if they think they can force the 4e to switch to 5e.
   WOTC should have learned from 4e that it no longer has a monopoly position.  It's not longer, "We offer what we want, you buy what we offer."  Now we can choose to buy from several other choices, and some of them threaten to look much more attractive than 5e.  So shutting down OCB may just lose them customers, and money, and they may well know that.  So OCB may stay up and running.
     We can't be sure at this point.  5e may actually turn out to be a game 4e players will actually like, or even love.  Or WOTC may be in such a blind panic they try anything, no matter how hopeless.  But while the determined 4e player is likely wise to scout out alternatives to the OCB, it is not yet time to jump ship.
Uh, I played 4e for several years, and I've never had a subscription.  I have no idea what the OCB looks like and I functioned just fine.



I would guess you are in a minority then.  4e has undergone so much errata and so quickly that the original books are virutally unusable anymore, and there are so many rules in so many sources, that it's tedius at best (and for many effectively impossible) to make characters except with computer aid of some sort.  It's not the complexity so much as the organization.

-Polaris
Pfah. This is all you need.



This is worthless for 4e ...


Yes, that's sort of the point. (Though I'm just kidding, really.)
I'd be happy if they just released a stable client-side version of the online tools. The Compendium and Monster Builder are even more important than the Character Builder because they get used almost every session.
DDi could be an even better money making machine if they want to.

Keep the current offering. Add new Tools for 5E in DDi.

You keep your current customers wether they play 5E or not, all while gaining new 5E customers.  Sales increase and everyone is happy.

Who'd want to drop a $200K/month revenue ? I doubt operational cost render DDi not profitable. I could be wrong but i think they will keep DDi running. 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Uh, I played 4e for several years, and I've never had a subscription.  I have no idea what the OCB looks like and I functioned just fine.



I would guess you are in a minority then.  4e has undergone so much errata and so quickly that the original books are virutally unusable anymore, and there are so many rules in so many sources, that it's tedius at best (and for many effectively impossible) to make characters except with computer aid of some sort.  It's not the complexity so much as the organization.

-Polaris

I don't use any of the errata unless it is specifically for a player's benefit.

I think WotC thoroughly messed up when they decided to make player-based changes to the system, rather than DM-based changes (monsters, etc.).  The "math fixes" could have been completely invisible to the players and they could have saved themselves alot of uproar.

The next edition ought to have absolutely no need for errata on the player's side of things!

-DS


DDi could be an even better money making machine if they want to.

Keep the current offering. Add new Tools for 5E in DDi.

You keep your current customers wether they play 5E or not, all while gaining new 5E customers.  Sales increase and everyone is happy.

Who'd want to drop a $200K/month revenue ? I doubt operational cost render DDi not profitable. I could be wrong but i think they will keep DDi running. 



It seems to me leaving the current tools up is a FANTASTIC marketing tool.

The way things look now there is almost no chance of me buying 5e, so lets assume they don't change that.  If they add 5e tools to my 4e subscription I might take a look at it and decide it's not as bad as the playtest made it look.  Even if I don't do that, at some point one of my gamer friends may invite me to a 5e game, if I can look over the stuff and make a character without having to buy books I don't want then I'm far more likely to go.  

Take down the 4e tools and you instantly lose most/all of your current insider subscriptions since we know that insiders are playing 4e and presumably like it.  You may pick up new 5e customers but then at best you're looking at a marginal increase over a market you just lost, even assuming 5e did well. 
I completely agree with you on that DarkSphinx. I always wondered why they didn't just errata the Monster's Manual when they realized the math was broken. Sure, they eventually did something similar to that with the third Monster's Manual and the Monster Vault but by then they'd already introduced Expertise and other feat taxes and made the system far more complex and problematic as a result.
EDIT: Nevermind, i misunderstood the pots. Derp English =V
Dane,

We seem to agree in what will happen but not why and I think why is important.  You seem to think "Does it make money" is the bottom end line concern, and it's not.  Even if something makes money, if it doesn't make enough money in the right category, it will be canned.

-Polaris


I don't see how Wizards can expect Next to make more money then DDI subs. The whole point of Next seems to be to take D&D "back to the roots" - less emphasis on crunch, visual aids, tiles, minis - basically all those things that helped generate additional profit. It just boggles my mind, how after a year or so after almost changing their entire business model over the fact that "book sales don't make money", they want to push a new product centered squarely around book sales.

EDIT: "Back to the roots" sounds funny actually, because the "roots" of D&D is a mini-based wargame. I don't know why so many people think that tactical combat minigame is taking D&D "away from its roots".
Dane,

We seem to agree in what will happen but not why and I think why is important.  You seem to think "Does it make money" is the bottom end line concern, and it's not.  Even if something makes money, if it doesn't make enough money in the right category, it will be canned.

-Polaris


I don't see how Wizards can expect Next to make more money then DDI subs. The whole point of Next seems to be to take D&D "back to the roots" - less emphasis on crunch, visual aids, tiles, minis - basically all those things that helped generate additional profit. It just boggles my mind, how after a year or so after almost changing their entire business model over the fact that "book sales don't make money", they want to push a new product centered squarely around book sales.

EDIT: "Back to the roots" sounds funny actually, because the "roots" of D&D is a mini-based wargame. I don't know why so many people think that tactical combat minigame is taking D&D "away from its roots".



You are being logical.  You are assuming that the total amount of money made is all that really matters.  However Corporations are not logical in this sense and Hasbro certainly isn't.  What matters to Hasbro (and thus unfortunately to Wotc) is that DnD 5e make certain sales targets.  If DnD 5e doesn't make those targets (and I see no way that they can), then the bean counters that want 5e to continue will try to remove all possible draws away from 5e, and the 4e DDI support is a supremely easy target and indeed the GSL was written precisely for this contingency....so Wotc could shut down all of 4e and force customers to buy 5e on a moment's notice.

-Polaris
Dane,

We seem to agree in what will happen but not why and I think why is important.  You seem to think "Does it make money" is the bottom end line concern, and it's not.  Even if something makes money, if it doesn't make enough money in the right category, it will be canned.

-Polaris


I don't see how Wizards can expect Next to make more money then DDI subs. The whole point of Next seems to be to take D&D "back to the roots" - less emphasis on crunch, visual aids, tiles, minis - basically all those things that helped generate additional profit. It just boggles my mind, how after a year or so after almost changing their entire business model over the fact that "book sales don't make money", they want to push a new product centered squarely around book sales.

EDIT: "Back to the roots" sounds funny actually, because the "roots" of D&D is a mini-based wargame. I don't know why so many people think that tactical combat minigame is taking D&D "away from its roots".



You are being logical.  You are assuming that the total amount of money made is all that really matters.  However Corporations are not logical in this sense and Hasbro certainly isn't.  What matters to Hasbro (and thus unfortunately to Wotc) is that DnD 5e make certain sales targets.  If DnD 5e doesn't make those targets (and I see no way that they can), then the bean counters that want 5e to continue will try to remove all possible draws away from 5e, and the 4e DDI support is a supremely easy target and indeed the GSL was written precisely for this contingency....so Wotc could shut down all of 4e and force customers to buy 5e on a moment's notice.

-Polaris



Technically, though its never been done, they could tell you not to use your 4E books too. Open one up to the copyright page somewhere on there is something about "authorized use". So really they could just put out a press release that no one is authorized to use the 4E books, take down the 4E DDi tools, and legally no one would be able to play 4E.

Sadly WotC might be stupid enough to try it...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Not for nothing Herolab has a 4e character generator that I hear is pretty well updated.  I use it for Pathfinder, and the only issue I have is I run PF Forgotten Realms so some of the options are not in there.  ANY golarion possibility you want is available though.

And if you want FR and are skilled enough you can program the FR or Eberron stuff in with the toolset.  Someone like Lokiare would have no problem with that I imagine.  It does take a certain level of understanding.  I am certainly not the best at it.

Then again if WOTC kills the GSL WOlflaire won't be able to do that.

Simply, taking down the 4e characte board is just assanine.

CAMRA preserves and protects real ale from the homogenization of modern beer production. D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!
Not for nothing Herolab has a 4e character generator that I hear is pretty well updated.  I use it for Pathfinder, and the only issue I have is I run PF Forgotten Realms so some of the options are not in there.  ANY golarion possibility you want is available though.

And if you want FR and are skilled enough you can program the FR or Eberron stuff in with the toolset.  Someone like Lokiare would have no problem with that I imagine.  It does take a certain level of understanding.  I am certainly not the best at it.

Then again if WOTC kills the GSL WOlflaire won't be able to do that.

Simply, taking down the 4e characte board is just assanine.




Well I'm making my own game that is similar enough to 4E that people who play 4E will like it. Maybe the spirit of 4E, while being different enough that WotC cannot sue. If you are interested it can be found in my signature...

I'm going to do the whole DDi thing. I've already got my version of the Compendium up with a limited amount of information in it here Aetherianica. I'm working on a PHP/jQuery/HTML/CSS/MySQL character builder too that seems to work on even crappy smart phone browsers. So not gonna do hero labs, just work on my own thing...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.

You are being logical.  You are assuming that the total amount of money made is all that really matters.  However Corporations are not logical in this sense and Hasbro certainly isn't.  What matters to Hasbro (and thus unfortunately to Wotc) is that DnD 5e make certain sales targets.  If DnD 5e doesn't make those targets (and I see no way that they can), then the bean counters that want 5e to continue will try to remove all possible draws away from 5e, and the 4e DDI support is a supremely easy target and indeed the GSL was written precisely for this contingency....so Wotc could shut down all of 4e and force customers to buy 5e on a moment's notice.

-Polaris



Which kinda gets me to the other point - Wizards can't seriously believe that cutting support for previous edition would increase the sales of the new one. What happened when they cut 3.5 support? Did grognards and h4ters switch to 4e? No, they took their money to Pathfinder. What makes them think it will be any different this time?
I agree, Old Country Buffet must not be lost!  Getting rid of it is a deal-breaker!  Surely the diaspora of restaurant-goers will never be reunited without OCB!  UNLIMITED soft drinks, people!

OK, carry on. Laughing
I agree, Old Country Buffet must not be lost!  Getting rid of it is a deal-breaker!  Surely the diaspora of restaurant-goers will never be reunited without OCB!  UNLIMITED soft drinks, people!

OK, carry on.


Only two questions: do they have bottomless fries and do they have a location in Canada?
What happened when they cut 3.5 support? Did grognards and h4ters switch to 4e? No, they took their money to Pathfinder. What makes them think it will be any different this time?



There is no 4E Pathfinder around this time. And it's unlikely one will pop up because of the numbers being significantly smaller than they were for 3.x.

You are being logical.  You are assuming that the total amount of money made is all that really matters.  However Corporations are not logical in this sense and Hasbro certainly isn't.  What matters to Hasbro (and thus unfortunately to Wotc) is that DnD 5e make certain sales targets.  If DnD 5e doesn't make those targets (and I see no way that they can), then the bean counters that want 5e to continue will try to remove all possible draws away from 5e, and the 4e DDI support is a supremely easy target and indeed the GSL was written precisely for this contingency....so Wotc could shut down all of 4e and force customers to buy 5e on a moment's notice.

-Polaris



Which kinda gets me to the other point - Wizards can't seriously believe that cutting support for previous edition would increase the sales of the new one. What happened when they cut 3.5 support? Did grognards and h4ters switch to 4e? No, they took their money to Pathfinder. What makes them think it will be any different this time?



I agree with you, but I know what the bean counter would say:  Last time Wotc made a mistake by putting 3.5 under the OGL and that meant that the holdouts had a place to go because a competitor could simply copy-paste the game.  Now thanks to the GSL, Wotc can shut down 4e entirely at any time, and no competitor can copy-paste forcing the 4e customers to upgrade.  That's the theory anyhow.

I think it's horsefeathers too, but IMHO something unfortunate happens when a person gets their MBA.....

-Polaris
There is no 4E Pathfinder around this time. And it's unlikely one will pop up because of the numbers being significantly smaller than they were for 3.x.


There is no 4e Pathfinder.  There cannot be, because of the nature of the GSL.   

However, pirates currently, at this moment, can provide a service comparable in quality to the official DDi.  As for me, I think they'll step up their game if WotC discontinue the online tools for 4e.   And I think there are many people, who currently are glad to give their money to WotC for the level of service WotC provides, who will consider alternatives if WotC decides to stop providing that service.  Ending the official 4e tools is just a bad idea, straight up.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
its good there is no forseeable 4e pathfinder. i mean, i would feel like a total idiot buying the same exact thing twice. its not like you wont be able to find 4e books cheap. pathfinder is a testament to what a driving force that hate for wizards can become. the first thing a pathfinder fan tells you is not 'this game is great', its 'they care about their customers'. loose translation: i hate wizards for screwing us over enough to buy something i already own out of pure spite. way to go wizards! i mean ive heard of karma but this is ridiculous. that you actually made it possible for them to freely copy and resell your books? thats priceless.

now, wizards could lose a good bit of money to other companies in regards to future 4e tools. ironically, this bodes WELL for 4e fans, bc if there is one thing wizards is completely inept at, its making money. look up 'bumbling' in the dictionary and theres a wizards logo. dur dur dur, lets just let anyone copy our books word for word and sell them! makes sense. dur dur dur, theres no future in online gaming! dur dur dur, we cant sell pdfs! that will lead to piracy! its not like every book we ever sold isnt out there already! dur dur dur.


its good there is no forseeable 4e pathfinder. i mean, i would feel like a total idiot buying the same exact thing twice. its not like you wont be able to find 4e books cheap. pathfinder is a testament to what a driving force that hate for wizards can become. the first thing a pathfinder fan tells you is not 'this game is great', its 'they care about their customers'. loose translation: i hate wizards for screwing us over enough to buy something i already own out of pure spite. way to go wizards! i mean ive heard of karma but this is ridiculous. that you actually made it possible for them to freely copy and resell your books? thats priceless.

now, wizards could lose a good bit of money to other companies in regards to future 4e tools. ironically, this bodes WELL for 4e fans, bc if there is one thing wizards is completely inept at, its making money. look up 'bumbling' in the dictionary and theres a wizards logo. dur dur dur, lets just let anyone copy our books word for word and sell them! makes sense. dur dur dur, theres no future in online gaming! dur dur dur, we cant sell pdfs! that will lead to piracy! its not like every book we ever sold isnt out there already! dur dur dur.




It's not about buying books, it's that with 4e books are nearly worthless with the ammount of errata and cross-refferencing that happened over the lifespan of the edition. This is why I opted out of buying new books in favor of DDI sub, which gives me OCB and Compendium - and this is the only way I can see 4e being really playable.
I honestly don't want to have to pirate it.


This is the sort of sentiment that really needs to be noticed.  When the pirates are on the verge of providing better service than your company, that should be a wakeup call.



On the verge?

The reason many people do pirate, be it the by WotC abandoned Character Builder, a game or whatever else, it's because they mostly do actually provide better service.

Good examples are best found in videogames. I bought From Dust for a few bucks in the Steam Summer Sale recently and couldn't play it for several days because the "This is to combat piracy!"-uPlay system went offline. If I had pirated the game I could play it anywhere, anytime for however long I like without having to give my personal information to yet another publisher that has no right to have it.

Gabe Newell was right, and people should get this in their head: Piracy is a service problem. Nothing more.



Dude, when we discuss game design I couldn't disagree with you more but when it comes to this I couldn't agree more.  This is the absolute truth.  

I have bought games before and then used the hacked copy to actually play it.  I'm anti-piracy and I want to give the authors their money but when the purchases game is too much trouble to bother with something has gone wrong.

And let me tell you.  No game on this earth has ever succeeded at stopping piracy.  Quit annoying your paying customers with all this crap that doesn't stop a single pirate.  


its good there is no forseeable 4e pathfinder. i mean, i would feel like a total idiot buying the same exact thing twice. its not like you wont be able to find 4e books cheap. pathfinder is a testament to what a driving force that hate for wizards can become. the first thing a pathfinder fan tells you is not 'this game is great', its 'they care about their customers'. loose translation: i hate wizards for screwing us over enough to buy something i already own out of pure spite. way to go wizards! i mean ive heard of karma but this is ridiculous. that you actually made it possible for them to freely copy and resell your books? thats priceless.

now, wizards could lose a good bit of money to other companies in regards to future 4e tools. ironically, this bodes WELL for 4e fans, bc if there is one thing wizards is completely inept at, its making money. look up 'bumbling' in the dictionary and theres a wizards logo. dur dur dur, lets just let anyone copy our books word for word and sell them! makes sense. dur dur dur, theres no future in online gaming! dur dur dur, we cant sell pdfs! that will lead to piracy! its not like every book we ever sold isnt out there already! dur dur dur.




It's not about buying books, it's that with 4e books are nearly worthless with the ammount of errata and cross-refferencing that happened over the lifespan of the edition. This is why I opted out of buying new books in favor of DDI sub, which gives me OCB and Compendium - and this is the only way I can see 4e being really playable.




i have all the books, i have the errata pdf, and i have the rules compendium, which is basically the major errata in super convenient form. as for random power nerfs, i can use the errata list if i like, but honestly, unless you are playing with a lot of hardcore power gamers, much of it doesnt matter that much at all. as for the pains of cross referencing, thats every edition. i mean its just as hard to move between 2e books imo as it is 4e. in 4e you do have a lot of useless options, primarily feats, that clutter things, but based on experience, i pretty much know what feats im going to take, no matter the class, no matter the level. now, dont get me wrong, i love the convenience of the tools, i would love the tools to stay up, and i would pay double without blinking for them. but to claim all of the 4e books are useless bc of errata is pretty sad imo. if you think that 4e is only playable if you have online tools, they truly do have you right where they want you