Overburden

19 posts / 0 new
Last post
Overburden

What are the differences between this and "Whenever a nontoken creature enters the battlefield"? Is there a way for a creature to enter the battlefield but not be put there by a player's actions?
It's just a grammar thing. Because the effect of the ability causes a player to take action, it identifies the player that is to take the action in the triggering condition. It's less grammatically awkward than identifying the player entirely in the effect.
Ever feel like people on these forums can't possibly understand how wrong they are? Feeling trolled? Don't get mad. Report Post.
But haven't we used "controller" often enough?

Such as,

"Whenever a creature enters the battlefield, its controller returns a land..."
proud member of the 2011 community team
While Life and Limb and Overburden are on the battlefield, targeting your opponent with Yavimaya Dryad's trigger will cause you to pick up a land. Under the proposed wording, this is changed.
There are probably other scenarios, but that's the first one I thought of. 

Sig
Disclaimers
My initial responses to rules questions are usually just answers. If you want an explanation as to why, say so. Just because it says I'm there, I'm not necessarily there. I leave my browser open so I don't have to reload ~30 tabs. Anyone who wants to text duel me through either PM or chat can just PM me with a format (and a time if playing through chat). I don't play standard.
# Card Blind Hall of Fame
3CB
3CB #1 (1/30/11): Won by silasw, with Mishra's Factory, Orzhov Basilica, Vindicate. 3CB #2 (2/13/11): Won by Vektor480, with Mishra's Workshop, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs 3CB #3(2/20/11): Joint win between defuse, with Saprazzan Skerry, Scalding Tongs, Energy Field; and Mown, with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Inkmoth Nexus, Sheltered Valley 3CB #4(3/13/11): Won by Mown, with Keldon Megaliths, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boros Garrison 3CB #5(3/20/11): Won by silasw, with Black Lotus, Channel, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
5CB
5CB 1 (3/6/11): Won by Maraxus-of-Keld, with Tropical Island, Thallid, Nether Spirit, Daze, Foil
quotes
56819178 wrote:
So, how would I use a card that has a large in the top half and "sui?l? -- pu?? ?is?q" across the middle?
57031358 wrote:
99113151 wrote:
Winning is not important if: 1. You win by a blowout. 2. You pay billions of dollars in cards to win. If you like wasting money just to win one game, while you could have saved it to lose a few and end up winning more in the future, then it is fine by me.
what? do you ceremonially light your deck on fire after a win?
57169958 wrote:
Or did no one notice Transmogrifying Licid before. (And by not notice, I mean covered their ears and shouted LA LA LA LA )
57193048 wrote:
57169958 wrote:
Hmmm... I think the most awkward situation at the moment is simply the Myr Welder / Equipment / Licid / Aura craziness, but I'm pretty sure he's aware of it.
If the most awkward thing going on right now involves Licids, I declare victory.
56287226 wrote:
We regret to inform you of Trevor Kidd's untimely demise in an unfortunate accident involving a mysteriously blown breaker box and a photophobic creature of unknown origin at his home near Renton, Washington. We at the Wizards Community apologize for any inconvenience or delay, and assure you we'll be preparing a replacement to assume his duties as soon as we finish warming up the cloning vats.
[02:47:46] It doesn't merely "come out of suspend" - you take the last time counter off, and then suspend triggers and say "now cast that! CAST IT NOOOOOW!" [02:47:49] Because suspend has no indoors voice
[10:11:33] !opalescence [10:11:33] Opalescence {2WW} |Enchantment| Each other non-Aura enchantment is a creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost. It's still an enchantment. · Reserved,UD-R,Vin,Leg,Cla,USBC [10:11:51] *sigh* [10:12:10] Otecko: Do you have a question about Opalescence? [10:12:17] sure [10:12:23] $10 on humility interaction [10:12:25] :P [10:12:29] :D [10:12:47] humility + opalescence put into play by replenish
Ego
58325628 wrote:
Mage is awesome, BTW.
56967858 wrote:
Dear Mage24365, You are totally awesome. Thank you so much. I hope you are able to dine in Paradise without kicking the bucket to actually get there, and that every dollar you ever make magically becomes two more.
58158398 wrote:
56761258 wrote:
I don't think there are any cards like that. There are things that prevent you from activating activated abilities, things that increase their cost, and things that counter them, but I don't think anything triggers from them specifically. There are things that trigger from targeting, so that might be relevant, but I can't think of anything that triggers from targeting a player. I'm almost positive there's nothing that triggers from damage being prevented.
Rings of Brighthearth; Dormant Gomazoa; Samite Ministration.
56761258 wrote:
Well played.

 

While Life and Limb and Overburden are on the battlefield, targeting your opponent with Yavimaya Dryad's trigger will cause you to pick up a land. Under the proposed wording, this is changed.
There are probably other scenarios, but that's the first one I thought of. 



Grrr...of course Life and Limb comes along and ruins everything. Something tells me the original intent of this card had nothing to do with giving an opponent a land creature out of your deck, but, oh well. Guess there's no argument anymore without forcing a functional change.

If my Fiend Hunter dies, I put the exiled creature onto the battlefield, so I have to return a land. I think Overburden should be changed, because it is confusing and plays badly, and I do not think that is what the wording was supposed to mean.


This same problem applies to Psychogenic Probe. Shuffling libraries or putting creatures onto the battlefield is not something that people think players do. People expect that a spell does it or that the game does it.


New Overburden wording:
Whenever a nontoken creature enters the battlefield under a player's control, that player returns a land he or she controls to its owner's hand.


New Psychogenic Probe wording:
Whenever a spell or ability causes a player's library to be shuffled, Psychogenic Probe deals 2 damage to that player.

Just curious, how did Overburden interact with Icy Prison at the time of its printing?

Sig
Disclaimers
My initial responses to rules questions are usually just answers. If you want an explanation as to why, say so. Just because it says I'm there, I'm not necessarily there. I leave my browser open so I don't have to reload ~30 tabs. Anyone who wants to text duel me through either PM or chat can just PM me with a format (and a time if playing through chat). I don't play standard.
# Card Blind Hall of Fame
3CB
3CB #1 (1/30/11): Won by silasw, with Mishra's Factory, Orzhov Basilica, Vindicate. 3CB #2 (2/13/11): Won by Vektor480, with Mishra's Workshop, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs 3CB #3(2/20/11): Joint win between defuse, with Saprazzan Skerry, Scalding Tongs, Energy Field; and Mown, with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Inkmoth Nexus, Sheltered Valley 3CB #4(3/13/11): Won by Mown, with Keldon Megaliths, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boros Garrison 3CB #5(3/20/11): Won by silasw, with Black Lotus, Channel, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
5CB
5CB 1 (3/6/11): Won by Maraxus-of-Keld, with Tropical Island, Thallid, Nether Spirit, Daze, Foil
quotes
56819178 wrote:
So, how would I use a card that has a large in the top half and "sui?l? -- pu?? ?is?q" across the middle?
57031358 wrote:
99113151 wrote:
Winning is not important if: 1. You win by a blowout. 2. You pay billions of dollars in cards to win. If you like wasting money just to win one game, while you could have saved it to lose a few and end up winning more in the future, then it is fine by me.
what? do you ceremonially light your deck on fire after a win?
57169958 wrote:
Or did no one notice Transmogrifying Licid before. (And by not notice, I mean covered their ears and shouted LA LA LA LA )
57193048 wrote:
57169958 wrote:
Hmmm... I think the most awkward situation at the moment is simply the Myr Welder / Equipment / Licid / Aura craziness, but I'm pretty sure he's aware of it.
If the most awkward thing going on right now involves Licids, I declare victory.
56287226 wrote:
We regret to inform you of Trevor Kidd's untimely demise in an unfortunate accident involving a mysteriously blown breaker box and a photophobic creature of unknown origin at his home near Renton, Washington. We at the Wizards Community apologize for any inconvenience or delay, and assure you we'll be preparing a replacement to assume his duties as soon as we finish warming up the cloning vats.
[02:47:46] It doesn't merely "come out of suspend" - you take the last time counter off, and then suspend triggers and say "now cast that! CAST IT NOOOOOW!" [02:47:49] Because suspend has no indoors voice
[10:11:33] !opalescence [10:11:33] Opalescence {2WW} |Enchantment| Each other non-Aura enchantment is a creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost. It's still an enchantment. · Reserved,UD-R,Vin,Leg,Cla,USBC [10:11:51] *sigh* [10:12:10] Otecko: Do you have a question about Opalescence? [10:12:17] sure [10:12:23] $10 on humility interaction [10:12:25] :P [10:12:29] :D [10:12:47] humility + opalescence put into play by replenish
Ego
58325628 wrote:
Mage is awesome, BTW.
56967858 wrote:
Dear Mage24365, You are totally awesome. Thank you so much. I hope you are able to dine in Paradise without kicking the bucket to actually get there, and that every dollar you ever make magically becomes two more.
58158398 wrote:
56761258 wrote:
I don't think there are any cards like that. There are things that prevent you from activating activated abilities, things that increase their cost, and things that counter them, but I don't think anything triggers from them specifically. There are things that trigger from targeting, so that might be relevant, but I can't think of anything that triggers from targeting a player. I'm almost positive there's nothing that triggers from damage being prevented.
Rings of Brighthearth; Dormant Gomazoa; Samite Ministration.
56761258 wrote:
Well played.

 

I agree with PirateAmmo's post above, and I think it would be worth the functional errata.
Would Gather Specimins be a problem?

As currently worded, I believe the spell's controller would be the one to return the land; with the proposed wording the controller of the new creature would.

I'm not sure whether that's enough of a functional change to make keeping the wording as-is; Gather Specimens is hardly widely used.

Show
Post 4,000. Neat.
Still blessed by Julia of Hillsdown. M:tG Rules Adviser You are Red/Blue!
You are Red/Blue!
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I'm against introducing functional changes just because an ancient card is "confusing and plays badly." IMO errata should be used only to fix genuine rules problems, not R&D mistakes or missed opportunities.
If a change is warranted, there's three other old cards that use "whenever a player puts" that should be fixed.
Nature's Wrath
Thelon's Chant
Tourach's Chant

It does seem odd to have this unintuitive trigger be different from "enters the battlefield (under your control)", when the difference is so small. It also makes us care about things like the put wording of Fiend Hunter (who's actually doing the "putting" on cards that say put?)  I don't know of anything else that cares about "put" in quite this way, and it seems like a simplification could be made.
If a change is warranted, there's three other old cards that use "whenever a player puts" that should be fixed.
Nature's Wrath
Thelon's Chant
Tourach's Chant

Arboria
Land Equilibrium

They even have rulings in Gatherer that talk about the problems with them.
Arboria's effect cares whether a player put a nontoken permanent onto the battlefield. It's unusual for an ability to care who did the putting (as opposed to whose control the permanent entered the battlefield under), and requires careful reading of spells and abilities to see which player is instructed to put something onto the battlefield. For example, Exhume causes each player to return a creature card from his or her graveyard to the battlefield. If Exhume's controller has no creature cards in his or her graveyard, but another player does, only that other player puts a permanent onto the battlefield. It doesn't matter who controls the effect.

If I cast Exhume, my opponent puts a creature onto the battlefield, and Overburden bounces one of their lands. If I cast Open the Vaults, I am the only one putting permanents onto the battlefield. Any artifact creatures that my opponents get cause Overburden to bounce my lands. That is dumb and should be changed.

New Arboria wording:
Creatures can't attack a player unless that player cast a spell or a nontoken permanent entered the battlefield under the player's control during his or her last turn.
If a change is warranted, there's three other old cards that use "whenever a player puts" that should be fixed.
Nature's Wrath
Thelon's Chant
Tourach's Chant

They even have rulings in Gatherer that talk about the problems with them.
Arboria's effect cares whether a player put a nontoken permanent onto the battlefield. It's unusual for an ability to care who did the putting (as opposed to whose control the permanent entered the battlefield under), and requires careful reading of spells and abilities to see which player is instructed to put something onto the battlefield. For example, Exhume causes each player to return a creature card from his or her graveyard to the battlefield. If Exhume's controller has no creature cards in his or her graveyard, but another player does, only that other player puts a permanent onto the battlefield. It doesn't matter who controls the effect.

If I cast Exhume, my opponent puts a creature onto the battlefield, and Overburden bounces one of their lands. If I cast Open the Vaults, I am the only one putting permanents onto the battlefield. Any artifact creatures that my opponents get cause Overburden to bounce my lands. That is dumb and should be changed.

New Arboria wording:
Creatures can't attack a player unless that player cast a spell or a nontoken permanent entered the battlefield under the player's control during his or her last turn.




I was just looking at Arboria recently; I'd prefer your suggestion despite the functional errata.
New Psychogenic Probe wording:
Whenever a spell or ability causes a player's library to be shuffled, Psychogenic Probe deals 2 damage to that player.


This change causes it to trigger when you shuffle your oppnent's library. For example, a stolen Elixir of Immortality or Rishadan Pawnshop

Level 1 Judge

@od256: Yes... that's the point.
There are some actions where it makes a difference who takes the action. "You draw a card" is something very different from "Target opponent draws a card", for example. The end result is very different.

There's another category of actions where only the action itself (and what the object of the action is) matters. For example, there should be no difference between "Tap target creature" and "Target creature's controller taps it". What matters is only that the creature becomes tapped.

Shuffling a library is currently in the first category because of Psychogenic Probe, but it should really be in the second category, even if that means functionally changing the Probe.
New Psychogenic Probe wording:
Whenever a spell or ability causes a player's library to be shuffled, Psychogenic Probe deals 2 damage to that player.

This change causes it to trigger when you shuffle your oppnent's library. For example, a stolen Elixir of Immortality or Rishadan Pawnshop

Players do not notice the difference between Reminisce and Repopulate, and they should not have to.
New Psychogenic Probe wording:
Whenever a spell or ability causes a player's library to be shuffled, Psychogenic Probe deals 2 damage to that player.

This change causes it to trigger when you shuffle your oppnent's library. For example, a stolen Elixir of Immortality or Rishadan Pawnshop

Players do not notice the difference between Reminisce and Repopulate, and they should not have to.




Wow.....so with a Psychogenic Probe on the battlefield, using Reminisce on a player will also shock them in the face, but Repopulate won't cause any damage to anyone? O_o That's ridiculous.